RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: iantresman on Thursday 22 November 18 09:20 GMT (UK)
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It really bugs me that in order to gain access to, for example, to the information on a marriage certificate, that I have to buy one for an extraordinary fee. (I know there are indices).
Why aren't they digitised? I don't want a certificate, I merely want the information that it on them. I'm not aware of any law preventing their digitisation, after all, the information is available on a certificate without hindrance.
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These event are not recorded for the benefit of us family historians.
Have you any idea of the cost that would be involved in such a project, the Government has much more important things to spend the tax payers money on. We should be grateful that many marriage entries are becoming available through digitisation by record office and commercial companies,
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This has been addressed many times on RootsChat
BMD digitisation project put on hold
http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/news/bmd-digitisation-project-put-hold
Stan
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These event are not recorded for the benefit of us family historians.
Have you any idea of the cost that would be involved in such a project, the Government has much more important things to spend the tax payers money on. We should be grateful that many marriage entries are becoming available through digitisation by record office and commercial companies,
I would hand over the project to www.freebmd.org.uk and bung them a chunk of cash to buy scanners and storage. They already have 270m out of an estimated 346m records, that "just" need linking to scanned certificates. It would be much more cost effective than manually retrieving and posting certificates.
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Perhaps I'm in the minority but for me much of the enjoyment of family history comes from finding information despite all the difficulties. Piecing together odd bits of the jigsaw until suddenly you have the full picture, or at least enough to give you a good idea of the full picture. If that involves me in some expense it is entirely my choice, I don't expect anyone else to subsidise my hobby any more than they would if I was interested in mountaineering, flying or trainspotting ::)
Once everything is fully available in digital form for anyone to access there will be no need for research and our hobby will be dead :'(
Anyway, after many years of research most of my missing ancestors pre-date the census by a century or more, so why aren't all parish registers fully digitised? ;)
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It would be much more cost effective than manually retrieving and posting certificates.
I think you would find it is just the opposite. I am sure that with commercial, private and hobby charges they are making more than enough to pay the cost of doing the job and the wages and the NI contributions and maybe a little bit extra to keep the Exchequer happy.
Regards
Chas
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Freebmd has enough to do just transcribing the GRO entries - we, who do that task, are volunteers and we do what we can, when we are able to do it. I'm not sure that you understand the enormity of just doing that.
At the moment I am working on Marriages in the September quarter of 1969 - my current assignment is pages 1101 to 1110 AND that covers marriage for surnames beginning "L". I've just completed page 1108 and the last surname on that page is Layzell. The last page in that quarter is page 2111, and there are an average of 130 surnames per page. :o
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It really bugs me that in order to gain access to, for example, to the information on a marriage certificate, that I have to buy one for an extraordinary fee. (I know there are indices).
I take it you have not been buying certificates for very long.
The cost of certificates has never been cheaper (in real terms) than it is today, family history was many times more expensive in the past.
The GRO as a Government Department has a legal obligation to pass on the costs of supplying information (such as a certificate) to the person who requires the information, it is not allowed to make a profit (or for that matter a loss) on the supply of such information.
Why aren't they digitised? I don't want a certificate, I merely want the information that it on them. I'm not aware of any law preventing their digitisation, after all, the information is available on a certificate without hindrance.
The simple answer is if you want to provide the funds to digitise the civil marriages send it to the GRO with a request to digitise the registers it will be done.
A more complex answer has been given in threads as stanmapstone indicated
Cheers
Guy
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Hello
BumbleB Free BMD was an absolutely fantastic tool, so thank you all.
I originally started out, when it was 10 miles to the nearest Central Library just to read the GRO Indexes on Fiche, (25 miles for Post 1858 Will Calendars) and then to the Priory Courts fill out a Form & pay a fee for a Will, I'd have to be frisked and pass through a body detector to get in to the Court, to get a Copy Will posted).
Also the Census, we had to take a 100 mile early train to Chester and rolling the film image by Census image, after viewing a reel I was punch drunk tired. Fortunately, the helpful Archivist managed to find an Alphabetical Register by mid afternoon, I saw my Ancestor, then found the couple half way through another Census film and got a print just before hometime.
Personally, I don't want them wasting money putting GRO Certificates online, that are easily obtainable in a week to 10 working days from an online Index and online Ordering system.
What we want and need online and transcribed are more images of records pre GRO Registration and pre 1841 Census, because this is where many family historians are getting really stuck.
Many many families had Mariners in them 200 years ago and they and other documents would likely be much more useful to many.
I never ordered one wasted Certificate either finding my Ancestry, but I have now ordered more than those total of Certificates trying to find a sideways ancestor, plus seen or acquired over 200 Wills, as my line just stops at a Birth about 1784 to 1787.
Whilst waiting for Certificates, you can sometimes find ancestors in a whole raft of other records too (some Directories freely available online).
Obviously, I'm frustrated at the numerous OCR corruptions of just the word Selby (e.g. Selbv and Salhy, Selhv, 8elbv, etc., etc.) in newspapers.
Mark
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See Digitisation and Indexing (D&I) Project at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Register_Office_for_England_and_Wales#Digitisation_and_Indexing_(D&I)_Project
And Expenditure on the Digitisation of Vital Events project of civil registration records
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01n2i/
Stan
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Hello
What the UK Government have opted for, is easier ordering of GRO Certificates and post 1858 Wills, by their own gov.uk websites.
Regarding information of the content (as a transcription), you really must see at least an image of the document, as I have seen some terrible and inaccurate transcriptions!
In the last few days three Richard Hoods were found amongst a list (on a main commercial website), but when the images were inspected and writing compared with the same adjacent handwriting, three were Richard Wood!
So never ever rely on a transcription, humans, OCR and pc systems are liable to errors!
ADDED: When back about 200 years, stuck and buying Death Certificates looking for a sideways ancestor, it might be useful to have the person present at Death, named in the Index, as some are relatives (and one might be unknown) and some not related.
Mark
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On a personal basis, I don't actually want the GRO marriage certificate. I much prefer to have a copy of the original entry from parish records - at least then you get the signatures, or X's, of your ancestors. ;)
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You can get photocopies of the original marriage certificates, showing the original signatures, from some local registrars.
Stan
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Yes, Stan, sorry I forgot about that. :-[ Several of the ones I received, some years ago now, were the most horrendous examples of 20th century hand-writing :-X
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You can get photocopies of the original marriage certificates, showing the original signatures, from some local registrars.
Stan
Not only that but it is possible to get digital copies of the formerly microfilmed Parish Registers of Baptism including some Births) Marriages and Burials (including some Deaths) by visiting your local LDS Family History Center.
Other venues including many Family History Societies & some libraries which still hold copies of the microfilmed registers for some/all parishes in their area.
Cheers
Guy
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Having done a small amount of transcribing for the LDS in the past, I am most appreciative of all those volunteers who have devoted their time to making information available to us. Not to mention all the volunteers on RC who also give so much freely. I have tried to repay in kind where I can but I am indebted to so many RootsChatters over the years.
Our hobby is probably in a better position now than it has ever been .
Mike.
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Your first post here on Rootschat in January 2017 was complaining in a similar vein-
Why so expensive for transcribed information? The whole lot should be online, and no more expensive than third party genealogy sites, who would be more than happy to undertake the digitisation work.
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I would hand over the project to www.freebmd.org.uk (emphasis added) and bung them a chunk of cash to buy scanners and storage. They already have 270m out of an estimated 346m records, that "just" need linking to scanned certificates. It would be much more cost effective than manually retrieving and posting certificates.
What exactly do you want to hand over? Are you saying that the FreeBMD organisation has, or should have, privileged access to the GRO's register copies in order to scan them? Are you aware that the work of FreeBMD is done by volunteers in their own homes?
By the way, they don't 'have' any records at all. They work with the published indices of the GRO's records, and a very fine job they make of it.
Carol
Added: The phrase 'reality check' has just come to mind for some reason.
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Hello
Many of mine were ordered from Registry Offices back around 1999 and certified Copies, before they scanned them.
Fortunately signatures look to be accurately transcribed.
But an image with original signature/s has to be best!
However, my mystery George Hood original 1815 signatures (Marriage entry & Bond) and the original Cookin signature on the Marriage entry, have never been traced.
I don't think the old so and so ever went to a wedding or to church, probably why he went to the Quakers later in life, but was refused and never became one!
Some other Marriages from the GRO National Office seem to be scans with original signatures and also match church images appearing online and others not.
Mark
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Your first post here on Rootschat in January 2017 was complaining in a similar vein-
Why so expensive for transcribed information? The whole lot should be online, and no more expensive than third party genealogy sites, who would be more than happy to undertake the digitisation work.
Well spotted Aghadowey :)
That earlier thread was about the then-recent introduction of the GRO's PDF system for birth and death records. We can only hope that the poster is now aware that said PDFs are not 'transcribed information'. They are scans of the copy certificates held by GRO, minus the printed officialese, and perfectly adequate for family history use.
Carol
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What exactly do you want to hand over? Are you saying that the FreeBMD organisation has, or should have, privileged access to the GRO's register copies in order to scan them? Are you aware that the work of FreeBMD is done by volunteers in their own homes?
I would hand over the management of the project, as FreeBMD has managed and produced a staggering large online resource.
I think that whoever was going to undertake such a project, could have privileged access to either GRO registers, or to those held at local registry offices.
Yes I am aware that the GRO work is done by volunteers; I'm not suggesting that the volunteers should be made to undertake a new project. Those that want to help, great. I think that volunteers help with FamilySearch records too.
I'm sure that when FreeBMD started, the thought of transcribing 370 million records was equally daunting, and others suggested it couldn't be done.
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Having done a small amount of transcribing for the LDS in the past, I am most appreciative of all those volunteers who have devoted their time to making information available to us. Not to mention all the volunteers on RC who also give so much freely. I have tried to repay in kind where I can but I am indebted to so many RootsChatters over the years.
Our hobby is probably in a better position now than it has ever been .
Mike.
Hello Mike
Thank you very much.
When unable to find a Census for a spurious reason (like use of intials only, instead of names), I have found it by playing around with a few search terms in Family Search first.
Then found it afterward on a commercial website and got the image.
Mark
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That earlier thread was about the then-recent introduction of the GRO's PDF system for birth and death records. We can only hope that the poster is now aware that said PDFs are not 'transcribed information'. They are scans of the copy certificates held by GRO, minus the printed officialise, and perfectly adequate for family history use.
Yes, I am aware that the PDFs are not transcribed information; I didn't know they were scans of the copy certificates. Aren't the copy certificates transcribed from the originals? My own certified copy of my birth certificate looks hand typed.
All I'm trying to do, is find a way to get the original information digitally, rather than use a system that is slow and requires a lot of manual intervention.
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FreeBMD has taken 20 years to get where it is today - assuming that the copyright date is the same start date.
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I remember when I used to want to go and see the cave paintings of my ancestors, we used to have to get out of the lake at three o'clock in the morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of hot gravel, go to work at the mill every day for tuppence a month, come home, and Dad would beat us around the head and neck with a broken bottle, if we were LUCKY!
Martin
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If a marriage took place after civil reg begun, I have often obtained a copy of the marriage cert through the parish records as you get original signatures and the same amount of info as you would get if you ordered the cert from the GRO. If I suspect they married at the registry office, then I order from the GRO or my local registry office. You may find non conformist marriages in the parish records at the record office, but not registry office marriages.
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What exactly do you want to hand over? Are you saying that the FreeBMD organisation has, or should have, privileged access to the GRO's register copies in order to scan them? Are you aware that the work of FreeBMD is done by volunteers in their own homes?
I would hand over the management of the project, as FreeBMD has managed and produced a staggering large online resource.
I think that whoever was going to undertake such a project, could have privileged access to either GRO registers, or to those held at local registry offices.
Yes I am aware that the GRO work is done by volunteers; I'm not suggesting that the volunteers should be made to undertake a new project. Those that want to help, great. I think that volunteers help with FamilySearch records too.
I'm sure that when FreeBMD started, the thought of transcribing 370 million records was equally daunting, and others suggested it couldn't be done.
Hi
I feel that even if an organisation could get permission (which I doubt) to voluntarily transcribe every England and Wales GRO BMD Certificate, it would be a poor use of precious time. Virtually nearly every place has Census coverage and some other record during the Civil Registration period from 1837 to the current day.
I dabble in a bit of local history 1500 to 1840 and there are thousands of names tucked away hidden in a single Landowner, Manor or other Collections in UK Archives of which there are 1,000s of these Collections (of varying sizes) around the UK, plus crews in old shipping Musters etc., etc., some of whom will never appear in old Parish Registers. Nor will those names appear in Catholic and Nonconformist records, because many of which are missing records. Despite Hardwicke's Marriage Act, a few even refused to marry in church and therefore never formally married according to the Law.
Transcribing GRO BMD Certificates (*which are actually available by purchase) after searching two Indexes Free BMD and GRO Index and cross referencing with Census (Census almost complete) and all the other records like Directories, etc., etc., then transcribing the actual GRO Certificates is a massively bad use of precious time, when so many other older records of people, are hidden away undiscovered in Archives. -
That hidden Archive record of them 200 years ago or more, might now be the only proof they ever existed.
Mark
* Some Church Wedding Certificates and recently I noticed some of my family 19th Parish baptisms were available online since 1837 (not all were / are C of E or had children baptised).
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Yes, I am aware that the PDFs are not transcribed information; I didn't know they were scans of the copy certificates. Aren't the copy certificates transcribed from the originals? My own certified copy of my birth certificate looks hand typed.
All I'm trying to do, is find a way to get the original information digitally, rather than use a system that is slow and requires a lot of manual intervention.
I suggest you first understand what the current system is and what records the GRO actually hold.
The GRO do not hold original Birth, civil Marriage or Death registers, those are held by the Superintendent Registrars at their offices, the other copy of Marriage Registers is held by the Church in which the marriage took place though these may be held by the Diocese Archive.
Every 3 month the GRO receives transcipts of the events from the Superintendent Registrars, these are transcribed into the GRO “registers” from which the certificates are transcribed either by hand or typed.
All certificates from the GRO (except for a few pre 1837 service BMDs etc which the GRO also hold).
Any PDF or Certificate from the GRO is either a copy of a copy of a transcript or a three times copy of a transcript.
If you are looking for the original register forget about the GRO and purchase from the Superindtendent Registrars or the Church in the case of church marriages.
Cheers
Guy
PS Even if you do purchase from the Superindtendent Registrar you will be lucky if you get a scan of an original but you can get microfilm & digital copies of parish registers which include the "modern" church marriages
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The GRO do not hold original Birth, civil Marriage or Death registers, those are held by the Superintendent Registrars at their offices, the other copy of Marriage Registers is held by the Church in which the marriage took place though these may be held by the Diocese Archive.
Thanks for that, all very interesting and informative. Do you know if there are any laws preventing their copying? I would guess Crown Copyright?
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Hello
If anyone is doing this hobby in the UK and on a very tight budget, don't forget your local Library, most have free pc access for one hour, to either one or both F.H. sites, it is free to join (most require only proof of identity and address) and check if any relevant images may be available online.
Over the years, the Library has been an amazing place!
Our Local History Section of our Town Library had our complete 19th Century Census printed and bound for the whole Parish, newspapers on film, etc., etc., and other items, so if you still live local to your ancestors, a Library Member and are prepared to sign these items out, look after them safely and get them signed back in, they will often let you see other items they hold under supervision.
Mark
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Thanks for that, all very interesting and informative. Do you know if there are any laws preventing their copying? I would guess Crown Copyright?
BMDs for approx. the first 56 years are out of copyright the rest are as you say Crown Copyright, however it is highly unlikely the GRO would allow the copying of the registers, though it is always worth a try if you are willing to pay for the digitising.
Many of the older Church marriage register have already been microfilmed and digitised by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) and may be viewed at their family history centers.
The LDS are still digitising records all over the world including in the UK.
I have digital copies of a number of my ancestors original marriage entrys from the registers.
Cheers
Guy
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If a marriage took place after civil reg begun, I have often obtained a copy of the marriage cert through the parish records as you get original signatures and the same amount of info as you would get if you ordered the cert from the GRO. If I suspect they married at the registry office, then I order from the GRO or my local registry office. You may find non conformist marriages in the parish records at the record office, but not registry office marriages.
After 1837, I have a Civil Copy of an 1873 Nonconformist Wesleyan Methodist Marriage with original Signatures from the local Registry Office. The GRO will have copied this into their Registers. The original may also be in the Bound Volume with the Chapel or Meeting, or as you say, now at a Records Office (or C of E or Catholic Diocesan Office).
Although civil Birth Registration began 1837, registering a Birth did not become a Legal requirement in England until the 1870s and even then some felt the Parish Register or their Nonconformist Registers satisfied the Law and were reminded that their Congregations or Meeting attenders, must register Births with their local Civil Superintendent Registrar as well.
I am sure when I got married, I signed two Registers on both occasions. One was held at the place of Marriage in a certified safe and the other copy signed by us, the Registrar told me they were taken every Quarter to the Local Superintendent Registrar.
Rather amusing as the second Marriage in a Crown Dependency says by Act of Parliament and the Registrar required consent from the Senior Registrar of their Government Office and I had to prove residency for a set period as we couldn't marry there. Even though residency was proven I still needed a Licence. But we all signed two Certificates at the Registry Office and those Marriages Copies given to us has the Registrar signing our names in her hand.
Mark
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If a marriage took place after civil reg begun, I have often obtained a copy of the marriage cert through the parish records as you get original signatures and the same amount of info as you would get if you ordered the cert from the GRO. If I suspect they married at the registry office, then I order from the GRO or my local registry office. You may find non conformist marriages in the parish records at the record office, but not registry office marriages.
After 1837, I have a Civil Copy of an 1873 Nonconformist Marriage with original Signatures from the local Registry Office. The GRO will have copied this into their Registers. The original may also be in the Bound Volume with the Chapel or Meeting, or as you say, now at a Records Office (or C of E or Catholic Diocesan Office).
Although civil Birth Registration began 1837, registering a Birth did not become a Legal requirement in England until the 1870s and even then some felt the Parish Register or their Nonconformist Registers satisfied the Law and were reminded that their Congregations or Meeting attenders, must register Births with their local Civil Superintendent Registrar as well.
I am sure when I got married, I signed two Registers on both occasions. One was held at the place of Marriage in a certified safe and the other copy signed by us, the Registrar told me were sent every Quarter to the Local Superintendent Registrar.
Rather amusing as the second Marriage in a Crown Dependency says by Act of Parliament and the Registrar required consent from the Senior Registrar of their Government Office and I had to prove residency for a set period as we couldn't marry there. Even though residency was proven I still needed a Licence. But all we signed two Certificates at the Registry Office and those Marriages Copies given to us has the Registrar signing our names in her hand.
Mark
1875 I think when the rules were tightened, hence why a number of pre 1875 births slipped through the net as it was the onus on the registrar and his deputies to tour the districts getting notes on new births, so no wonder a percentage overall was missed. From 1875 it was the responsibility of the parents, or whoever was present at the birth, or the next of kin etc.
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1875 I think when the rules were tightened, hence why a number of pre 1875 births slipped through the net as it was the onus on the registrar and his deputies to tour the districts getting notes on new births, so no wonder a percentage overall was missed. From 1875 it was the responsibility of the parents, or whoever was present at the birth, or the next of kin etc.
Under the 1836 Registration Act, Section XVIII, registration was compulsory in the case of the Registrar. The onus was on him to collect births and deaths. In carrying out his duties the parents were compelled, under the Act, Section XX, to supply the information when asked. The Act states the parent or occupier 'shall' give information to the Registrar on a birth 'upon being requested to do so.' In official documents 'shall' means compulsion. The reason why it is thought that registration was not compulsory is that in Section XIX the act states that the “Father or Mother of any Child ........ may*, within forty-two Days next after the Day of such Birth or within Five Days after the Day of such Death respectively, give Notice of such Birth or Death to the Registrar of the District;" In this context may means to have the opportunity, or be permitted by circumstances not to wait for the registrar, but to go to him to register the birth, or death, not the option to register the birth or not. If the birth was not registered within forty-two days there was also a fee of two Shillings and Sixpence entitlement for the Superintendent Registrar, and five shillings for the registrar, Section XXII. The registrar was also paid for every entry of birth and deaths, Section XXIX, two shillings and sixpence each for the first twenty entries, and one shilling for every subsequent entry of Births or Deaths in each Year. This gave him the incentive to make sure he carried his duties. Under sections XXI and XXVI, births and deaths at sea on a British Vessel, registration is compulsory.
*May = to have the potentiality to, be at liberty to, be permitted by circumstances to.
A penalty not exceeding £2 was introduced in Section 39 of the 1874 Registration of Births & Deaths Act, for the non-registration of a birth (the wording of the Act is actually for “failing to give information concerning the birth…….. as required by the said Acts”). There was also a penalty for late registration in the 1874 Act, as in the 1836 Act.
Stan
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The onus was on the registrar to collect births and deaths, however it was left to his discretion to employ such lawful means of informing himself as appeared to be best, but he had to employ some means. Rather than touring the district, he would most likely have referred to people such as doctors, midwives, undertakers etc. that would have knowledge of any birth or death in the district.
As the 1836 Act says Section XVIII
"every Registrar shall be authorized and is hereby required to inform himself carefully of every Birth and every Death which shall happen within his District"
Stan
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These days most of the record images I collect I download from Family Search.
Blue
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What exactly do you want to hand over? Are you saying that the FreeBMD organisation has, or should have, privileged access to the GRO's register copies in order to scan them? Are you aware that the work of FreeBMD is done by volunteers in their own homes?
I would hand over the management of the project, as FreeBMD has managed and produced a staggering large online resource.
I think that whoever was going to undertake such a project, could have privileged access to either GRO registers, or to those held at local registry offices.
Yes I am aware that the GRO work is done by volunteers; I'm not suggesting that the volunteers should be made to undertake a new project. Those that want to help, great. I think that volunteers help with FamilySearch records too.
I'm sure that when FreeBMD started, the thought of transcribing 370 million records was equally daunting, and others suggested it couldn't be done.
Hi
I feel that even if an organisation could get permission (which I doubt) to voluntarily transcribe every England and Wales GRO BMD Certificate, it would be a poor use of precious time. Virtually nearly every place has Census coverage and some other record during the Civil Registration period from 1837 to the current day.
I dabble in a bit of local history 1500 to 1840 and there are thousands of names tucked away hidden in a single Landowner, Manor or other Collections in UK Archives of which there are 1,000s of these Collections (of varying sizes) around the UK, plus crews in old shipping Musters etc., etc., some of whom will never appear in old Parish Registers. Nor will those names appear in Catholic and Nonconformist records, because many of which are missing records. Despite Hardwicke's Marriage Act, a few even refused to marry in church and therefore never formally married according to the Law.
Transcribing GRO BMD Certificates (*which are actually available by purchase) after searching two Indexes Free BMD and GRO Index and cross referencing with Census (Census almost complete) and all the other records like Directories, etc., etc., then transcribing the actual GRO Certificates is a massively bad use of precious time, when so many other older records of people, are hidden away undiscovered in Archives. -
That hidden Archive record of them 200 years ago or more, might now be the only proof they ever existed.
Mark
* Some Church Wedding Certificates and recently I noticed some of my family 19th Parish baptisms were available online since 1837 (not all were / are C of E or had children baptised).
I have the recollection, from some time ago, on one of the TV shows about genealogy and history, of a large repository of records which were held still by the local manor house. They were in books, and also rolls.
Just think of the information in them, and also the work required to digitise them, let alone transcribe them.
AC
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I remember when I used to want to go and see the cave paintings of my ancestors, we used to have to get out of the lake at three o'clock in the morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of hot gravel, go to work at the mill every day for tuppence a month, come home, and Dad would beat us around the head and neck with a broken bottle, if we were LUCKY!
Martin
Oh I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument or the full half hour? ;D
Carol
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I have the recollection, from some time ago, on one of the TV shows about genealogy and history, of a large repository of records which were held still by the local manor house. They were in books, and also rolls.
Just think of the information in them, and also the work required to digitise them, let alone transcribe them.
Manorial Court records exist in many places, and would mostly be found in county archives.
They are an extremely valuable source for family research - for instance they will record deaths of tenants and a property being taken over by an an heir.
Some have been transcribed, at least partially - where I live they are fully transcribed and run from 1308 to 1936.
TNA have a searchable index of holdings, but I would always check with the local archives as well to check what they have.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/manor-search
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I have been reading through this thread with interest. It seems that some people appear to be unaware of LocalBMD projects.
Maybe have a read: https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/localbmdproject
Actually using a LocalBMD entry combined with the FreeBMD entry can supply further information. For example, entries can denote remarriages/other names, and most importantly the name of church the couple were married in for Anglican marriages. Other entries may say (*Place*) Register Office or Registrar Attended. A good clue for a Catholic or Non-com marriage.
I think some of you have been missing out! :-\
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CarolA3, nice one!
Martin
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I have been reading through this thread with interest. It seems that some people appear to be unaware of LocalBMD projects.
Maybe have a read: https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/localbmdproject
Actually using a LocalBMD entry combined with the FreeBMD entry can supply further information. For example, entries can denote remarriages/other names, and most importantly the name of church the couple were married in for Anglican marriages. Other entries may say (*Place*) Register Office or Registrar Attended. A good clue for a Catholic or Non-com marriage.
I think some of you have been missing out! :-\
Hello
I only want more:- name, place and date indexing of records along with an Index reference (not transcriptions of the whole records) from which I can order a Certified Copy or a photographic image / scan of the original from the reference given.
Also everytime something is transcribed errors can and do creep in.
When I order Will scans, I require a scan of the original Will Bundle that the Testator actually signed if still available, not a transcription from a Will Register, which itself was often copied speedily from the original Will Bundle into a Register Volume.
The point I was making was, why waste time transcribing each Certificate, when they are available as images?
Agree, Manor and Landowner manuscripts are a valuable rich source and time could be better spent, listing the names along with Folio & Cat finding references, amongst collections in UK Archives (some hidden names might be the only single surviving reference to that individual over 200+ years ago).
Signature Comparison
Transcribing is no good when you suddenly wish to compare signatures. A signature can sometimes tell you - this document is not an ancestor's.
It is no good having a document with the same name as your ancestor, but not an ancestor.
Secondary Document Checks
Where possible research should always be corroborated in a secondary document, where they survive.
Mark
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Hello
I only want more:- name, place and date indexing of records along with an Index reference (not transcriptions of the whole records) from which I can order a Certified Copy or a photographic image / scan of the original from the reference given.
I think most researchers want the same but being realistic we understand how much it costs to scan, store and index digitised records. Most of us are thankful for the huge amount of cheap digital records that are available today.
Also everytime something is transcribed errors can and do creep in.
Most if not all transcribers a well aware of this that is why projects like FreeBMD etc. check and counter check the transcription to endeavour to cut down the errors.
date=1542991672]When I order Will scans, I require a scan of the original Will Bundle that the Testator actually signed if still available, not a transcription from a Will Register, which itself was often copied speedily from the original Will Bundle into a Register Volume.
The point I was making was, why waste time transcribing each Certificate, when they are available as images? [/quote]
I wish it was so simple, many original will are no longer available and only the copies remain, in the same way many historic parish registers are no longer available only transcripts whether Bishop’s Transcripts, Archdeacon’s Transcripts or transcripts made by individuals in years gone by when the only method of copying was by transcribing. Not to mention that most early and quite a few later parish registers are transcripts of original registers not to mention day books.
[quote author=BushInn1746 link=topic=804060.msg6623186#msg6623186
Agree, Manor and Landowner manuscripts are a valuable rich source and time could be better spent, listing the names along with Folio & Cat finding references, amongst collections in UK Archives (some hidden names might be the only single surviving reference to that individual over 200+ years ago).[/quote]
Could it, I take it you have never been frustrated by having sight of such catalogue entries only to find that the records are in private hands and the owner will not allow public access to his records.
Signature Comparison[/u]
Transcribing is no good when you suddenly wish to compare signatures. A signature can sometimes tell you - this document is not an ancestor's.
It is no good having a document with the same name as your ancestor, but not an ancestor.
Secondary Document Checks
Where possible research should always be corroborated in a secondary document, where they survive.
Mark
You may be happy in discarding a record based on a signature I certainly would not after 60+ years of research I do not feel qualified to be sure that person x made their signature in a certain manner and I certainly would not claim a historic document was made by an ancestor based on a signature there are far too many variables for me to claim that.
Cheers
Guy
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The signature I use when signing a cheque, or withdrawal form at the bank is nothing like the signature I used when signing in at work. It was simply to state I had arrived, and had no legal basis.
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Hello
Yes, some people did have two written signatures too, one of my ancestors used two.
I have several specimens of my mystery Ancestor's, that he used when signing business documents and another when signing on church documents and his Will (identical, although frail on his Will).
Errors in Family Trees
After seeing some terrible errors in family trees online, I can't stress enough, that where you can afford to get a scan of the original document and you wish to, obtain it.
You often see information not transcribed, you get a general feel for the document and sometimes the witnesses can be related and be identified too.
At some places the cost of obtaining a partial transcription of a document is £30 per half hour, versus the cost of the scan of the whole document is sometimes little different in cost, sometimes an image scan of the whole document is cheaper and I can spend time reading it several times (if need be), rather than somebody hurrying to read it and writing it down. Often another person types it in, from another person's handwriting too.
I'm dead against the transcription, you don't want to get back 500 years, then somebody come along and produce an original document, confirming a more recent error, which completely demolishes your tree, making it null and void.
Mark
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I wish to say, it is a great hobby and I hope you all make many fascinating discoveries about your ancestors.
The more you dig, the more you will find out.
All the best, Mark
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Hello
Yes, some people did have two written signatures too, one of my ancestors used two.
I have several specimens of my mystery Ancestor's, that he used when signing business documents and another when signing on church documents and his Will (identical, although frail on his Will).
Errors in Family Trees
After seeing some terrible errors in family trees online, I can't stress enough, that where you can afford to get a scan of the original document and you wish to, obtain it.
You often see information not transcribed, you get a general feel for the document and sometimes the witnesses can be related and be identified too.
At some places the cost of obtaining a partial transcription of a document is £30 per half hour, versus the cost of the scan of the whole document is sometimes little different in cost, sometimes an image scan of the whole document is cheaper and I can spend time reading it several times (if need be), rather than somebody hurrying to read it and writing it down. Often another person types it in, from another person's handwriting too.
I'm dead against the transcription, you don't want to get back 500 years, then somebody come along and produce an original document, confirming a more recent error, which completely demolishes your tree, making it null and void.
Mark
Yes Mark nobody is disputing that and in fact most of us stress the same but we were discussing the cost involved for the GRO & online providers to digitise, host & index such scans which makes it quite a slow procedure even for the large companies.
Transcripts which are often easy to obtain and cheaply available are a stop gap method of providing the information required.
You mention you are dead against transcription, does that mean you only use the 1911 census?
Does that mean you refuse to use parish registers as most of these are transcripts of day books and the majority of early parish registers are transcripts of the earlier paper parish registers transcribed onto vellum?
We as family historians have to be realistic and use the available records in our research, but that does not mean we have to be careless we attempt to confirm our assumptions by using as many alternative records as possible to confirm our assumptions.
For instance for roughly the first 25 years of my research I had to use my own transcriptions to compile my family tree (as did other similar researchers), these transcriptions were taken from original registers held by the superintendent Registrars and I paid through the nose to access them and transcribe the relevant entry. That availability was stopped in 1974/5.
The reason we did that was because it made our research more accurate than relying on the transcribed copies of copies provided by the GRO.
In a similar manner researchers would transcribe from original parish registers in churches and Diocese Archives or bought microfilm copies of the registers to browse at home.
Since the online companies have been digitising these registers I now have the luxury of being able to add an image of the record on my family history database to confirm research I possible did 40 or 50 years ago for those interested in my research in the future.
In other words yes, it would be good to have all original records available online but we have to be realistic and realise that costs time and money.
In the meantime be thankful the many generous people have given their time and often their money too making information available to others by transcribing them.
Cheers
Guy
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You may be happy in discarding a record based on a signature I certainly would not after 60+ years of research I do not feel qualified to be sure that person x made their signature in a certain manner and I certainly would not claim a historic document was made by an ancestor based on a signature there are far too many variables for me to claim that.
This is a fair point but looking at it the other way round, signatures can confirm that you have found the right person.
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Hello
I agree Sloe Gin, when signatures are a good match they can be most helpful.
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Hello Guy,
Trying to track down unindexed records of people, I feel is a far greater priority.
For example a typed University Thesis about Banking (scanned and made freely available online) the Author mentioned my ancestor and occupation along with others.
I contacted the HSBC Banking Archives who acquired that Bank. My ancestor was listed, but unfortunately, any documents confirming places of Birth of old clients, had not been retained in that area. Apparently, these old C19 records were found in a Branch and Archives took them.
These are great finds and had the typed Thesis never been scanned and put online, I would never have known that my ancestor appeared on a list of Bank Customers in the town where he lived and that he could loan money, without higher approval.
Therefore, more indexing is definitely required.
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It sounds, as though I have been very lucky with the Certified Copies of the BMD held by the Registrar mostly purchased about 20 years ago (many of the Marriages have appeared online as satisfactory images now).
One Example of A Transcription Error
There was one slight problem with one Certificate, where the Registrar wrote 'Farmer' instead of 'Tanner'. However, I sent a polite letter with photocopies of several Street Directories and photocopy of another Certificate and a reply came back on a Compliments slip with a snippet photocopy saying that it could be read as either Farmer or Tanner, but if I wished to and returned the Certificate, the Registrar would issue a replacement Certificate, which they did, due to the several proofs I had supplied.
Mark
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I don't want a certificate, I merely want the information that it on them. I'm not aware of any law preventing their digitisation, after all, the information is available on a certificate without hindrance.
Is this because you are stuck or have little information or knowledge of your family?
If you are able to, have you considered making contact with relations (perhaps ones you might have been told about, but never met)?
I was already back quite some time, but when I contacted another branch of my family by tracing them in their last known village, up to the late 1980s (in Archives Directories etc), then knocking on a few doors in that village on a nice sunny day (a sunny day always helps, people are more helpful) a lady opposite came out into her front garden, so I went across and asked her and she replied ... oh he has died 1980s but his Daughter still lives at _______ House on the main road. I went there informed the man who I was and after recalling a family event (known by both branches) ... I know who you are ...
Shortly after, we sent photocopies of items I had, who also responded with a large envelope of photocopy items including a few Certificates back to 1876 (my Father knew of the events in the 20th Century, but had never seen those records).
It was most interesting to get confirmation of my researched line too. Since, we have exchanged scans of other items.
Some people don't keep much, but some members of families, try to keep some old items.
Mark
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I only want more:- name, place and date indexing of records along with an Index reference (not transcriptions of the whole records) from which I can order a Certified Copy or a photographic image / scan of the original from the reference given.
Is that all!
What you are asking for is a mammoth task and in a high percentage of time a pointless task.
There are various reasons why it is pointless here are just two examples : Early parish registers seldom give much more detail so it is virtually as quick to transcribe the complete record as it is to extract name, place and date.
There might be one chance of access to the original manuscripts if that is the case why waste it compiling a name, place and date index when one could digitise the entire record?
snip
Hello Guy,
Trying to track down unindexed records of people, I feel is a far greater priority.
For example a typed University Thesis about Banking (scanned and made freely available online) the Author mentioned my ancestor and occupation along with others.
I contacted the HSBC Banking Archives who acquired that Bank. My ancestor was listed, but unfortunately, any documents confirming places of Birth of old clients, had not been retained in that area. Apparently, these old C19 records were found in a Branch and Archives took them.
These are great finds and had the typed Thesis never been scanned and put online, I would never have known that my ancestor appeared on a list of Bank Customers in the town where he lived and that he could loan money, without higher approval.
Therefore, more indexing is definitely required.
Are you volunteering to spend your time and money travelling to where the unindexed manuscripts and papers are held, negotiating with the owner or the archivist to access and index the records?
Have you done that kind of thing before sometimes that takes more time and negotiating than Brexitt.
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It sounds, as though I have been very lucky with the Certified Copies of the BMD held by the Registrar mostly purchased about 20 years ago (many of the Marriages have appeared online as satisfactory images now).
This sounds as if you are referring to the images of parish registers that are appearing online, many of which have been digitised from microfilm copies made by the LDS during the mid to late 20th century. The microfilming of these alone took approximately 60 years of toil. This was paid for through the tithes paid by every member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS), not content with microfilming the records the LDS made them available to anyone in the world through their network of Family History Centers (FHC) for only the cost of postage of the microfilm or microfiche to the FHC.
Even today the LDS have teams visiting archives all over the world digtising records as fast as they can and as with the microfilming this is all paid for through the Church members’ tithes.
Most family historians will agree we would like more of everything but those of us that have been around for many years understand the huge task involved in the production of more.
Cheers
Guy
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It really bugs me that in order to gain access to, for example, to the information on a marriage certificate, that I have to buy one for an extraordinary fee. (I know there are indices).
Returning to the original question...
Is the fee "extraordinary"? Sometimes it might feel like you're paying a lot for not much information. It's worse if you're not 100% sure you're ordering the right certificate.
Before the PDF copies brought the cost down, a certificate cost me more than I earn per hour. The costs soon mount up, and I think carefully before I order a certificate. Do I really need it? Can I find the information elsewhere?
Compared to a month's subscription on Findmypast, for example, where you can find heaps of information for your money, then yes, a BMD certificate seems very expensive.
But.... it is what is is. I understand the costs that go into digitising records. I know that everything is much more accessible than it has been in the past. I recently stumbled across my granddad's notebook, where he recorded all his family history research. Slow and painful, to say the least! I'm very thankful for the records and indexes we have available to us today.
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Good Morning
Point being made was, that it would be a gigantic massive task too, to transcribe each Civil Certificate.
We have Indexes thanks to the massive gigantic efforts of Volunteers of Free BMD and Free BMD itself, which has taken about 20 years to transcribe a short line for each Certificate, (it would probably take 60 years or more for volunteers to transcribe each certificate).
Also for 19th Century GRO registered Births, the GRO Index now gives the Mother's Maiden Surname (when that was given at Birth).
Also quite good Census and other coverage online 19th Century.
Also Family Search too, who are continuing to transcribe more entries in brief, all dates and periods.
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However, more people are likely to get stuck further back and/or having difficulty pre GRO and Census.
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I can't prove who the Father was, of George Hood of Selby born about 1784 to 1787, dying 1845. Got some more things we need to see in Yorkshire Archives. Visits so far, unsuccessful, in getting back further.
Both the descendants of John Hood of Selby, Mariner (buried 1819, aged 82 years) and George Hood of Selby, Cooper business, Brewer and Tanner (buried by Quakers as a Non-Member 1845, aged 60 yrs), married into the same GRUBB family, but it isn't a total breakthrough.
Diagram here ...
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=804155.msg6623371#msg6623371
Mark
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Good Morning
Point being made was, that it would be a gigantic massive task too, to transcribe each Civil Certificate.
We have Indexes thanks to the massive gigantic efforts of Volunteers of Free BMD and Free BMD itself, which has taken about 20 years to transcribe a short line for each Certificate, (it would probably take 60 years or more for volunteers to transcribe each certificate).
First let me say I support the effort the has been made by FreeBMD and its sister sites FreeReg and FreeCen I even donated a large number of my own transcripts to the project but please don’t think we only have civil BMD indexes because of the effort of the FreeBMD volunteers.
FreeBMD indexes are copied from the GRO indexes that have been in use since 1837.
One of the reasons there are mistakes in the FreeBMD indexes is because the original GRO indexes contained errors, as the pages of the indexes wore out sometimes they were re-inked introducing errors and sometimes they were re-written introducing transcription errors, then later they were transcribed again as typescript indexes. This process has been duplicated quite a few times and each time errors and omissions have occurred.
The LDS microfilmed the GRO Indexes (I think the last filming was in 1983 under the title St.Catherine's House Index and was produced on 21500 individual microfiche).
The online GRO index was a new index produced from the registers not copied from the original indexes and was compiled very quickly.
Cheers
Guy
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FreeBMD indexes are copied from the GRO indexes that have been in use since 1837.
One of the reasons there are mistakes in the FreeBMD indexes is because the original GRO indexes contained errors, as the pages of the indexes wore out sometimes they were re-inked introducing errors and sometimes they were re-written introducing transcription errors, then later they were transcribed again as typescript indexes. This process has been duplicated quite a few times and each time errors and omissions have occurred.
The LDS microfilmed the GRO Indexes (I think the last filming was in 1983 under the title St.Catherine's House Index and was produced on 21500 individual microfiche).
The online GRO index was a new index produced from the registers not copied from the original indexes and was compiled very quickly.
Cheers
Guy
Hi
Yes, it was 2 buses and travel 12 miles to even see the fiche of the GRO Index when I started, before I could even send off to the Registrar and order a Certificate.
Same with the Census too, getting photocopies from County / Town Libraries, where my Ancestor once lived.
So massive strides have been made online.
Back in 2001 the LDS brought out the 1881 Census transcriptions on a pack of CDs (you had to book it at the Library, because so many wanted to use it or see it), albeit I was back at 1851.
I see from the GRO replies on my sign in (via a link), they have checked comments made and corrected some Indexing.
Mark