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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Braytons on Friday 23 November 18 11:07 GMT (UK)
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Dear Rootschat
My grandmother Mary Elizabeth Amelia Vincent was born 6 Jun 1875. I have asked about her before, so apologies for going over the same ground again.
It was the curious case of her being noted as being born in "South of France" in the 1881 census. (Her brother Robert Richard Vincent was noted as being born in "South America").
I could not find a birth registration record for her. I came to the conclusion that she was adopted. Supporting this conclusion was that her parents (on paper) were Robert John Vincent 7 Jun 1835 and Mary Yorke 8 Jun 1836, who were married on 8 Jan 1861 and that 10 years elapsed before the first birth in 1871. Plus the mother of Robert was Ellen Friend Vincent née Connolly 7 Oct 1799 - 1878 was a "monthly nurse", living at Silver Street (now Beak St.), Westminster. She was exactly the right sort of person to deal with unwanted births. Robert when confronted by the enumerator in the 1881 census said "South of France" knowing that he had no record of a birth. And there the matter rested. With the happy conclusion that my grandmother was the daughter of a wayward young woman unable to deal with the problem.
Until recently:
Then a near relation treated me to a DNA test. My understanding of the process of birth is that the child acquires DNA traits from each of the parents. On Ancestry I have found several "shared matches" and in some cases I have been able to find a common ancestor.
Thinking about the adoption situation:
I concluded that I should get no links (according to the paper records) to the trees of people who were her forebears i.e. the family Vincent and Yorke.
On the other hand (considering the biological parents of Mary Vincent) I should get several links to families who are apparently unrelated to me. Particularly as I am dealing with my grandma - who is only 2 generations away. In looking at these I ought not to find a connection in the paper records.
The problem there is that the failure to find a link will be mixed in with those where lack of diligence also fails to find a link.
My questions; is my thought process correct about the linking of families?
And considering those where there is no apparent link, if I find a female about the right age (born around 1855) in the right area am I likely to identify a specific Mum?
AND then should I make contact with the any descendant of this Mum?
Has anyone been in this sticky situation? ::)
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Your DNA findings are hard to follow, sorry!
Are you saying that you have found genetic matches via your DNA to relatives of Mary’s “on paper” parents, whom you would not be genetically related to had she been adopted from outside the family?
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...or perhaps you are saying that you have found unexpected matches to apparently unrelated families, and as you cannot otherwise account for them you are hoping to use them to trace Mary’s biological parents?
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Hi thank you for your replies!
No I don't think that's what I am saying and sorry for the confusion.
I have not yet found any genetic matches to my grandmother's "paper" mother or father. This could be because no one related to those families have taken a DNA test, or a match is so weak that I haven't found the link.
I do have a few matches which I can't link to my tree.
I hope that's a bit clearer. :)
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If you have had a previous thread on this I don’t want to go over old ground, but why is Mary’s father “Robert” on her baptism, and “George” in the 1881 census and her 1883 school admission record?
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Good luck ...
I eventually found matches for my grandmother s birth parents
It helped that my mother did the DNA test too...the closer you can get to missing ancestors the better ...also we had the original birth certificate tho not the new married name of her mother and we had name of father from a court case
Also very lucky that a grandson of grandmas birth mother decided to take the test. He was investigatino paternal side and very surprised to find his grandma had had a daughter before marriage and a bit sad that his father would never know he wasn't an only child
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Are these the relevant family baptisms, all at St Pancras?
04 May 1873: Mary Augusta Jane Susannah Vincent, b 27 Dec 1872, abode 29 Ossulston St.
20 Sep 1875: Robert Richard Vincent, b 24 Feb 1871, abode 29 Ossulston St.
24 Jul 1876: Mary Eliza Amelia Vincent, b 06 June 1875, abode 35 Clarendon St.
All children of Robert (cab driver) and Mary.
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Good luck ...
I eventually found matches for my grandmother s birth parents
It helped that my mother did the DNA test too...the closer you can get to missing ancestors the better ...also we had the original birth certificate tho not the new married name of her mother and we had name of father from a court case
Also very lucky that a grandson of grandmas birth mother decided to take the test. He was investigatino paternal side and very surprised to find his grandma had had a daughter before marriage and a bit sad that his father would never know he wasn't an only child
Thank you. It's good to know some people have been successful!
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This is fascinating story
I'm reading the other thread but have only got to page 6maybe you could summarise what you do know
2 things that came up for me is that baptising the children in Uk would be normal if they were a different religion before adopted or just because they wanted a family ceremony ..who were godparents .?
My grandmother had a different middle name on birth certificate and baptism I think because her middle name was used to identify the father and once a judgement for payment had been obtained ed she could baptise her baby with middle name of her own choosing
Second on school records my great grandfather appears in the parent or guardian column for his little sister ..your George could have been taking his neice to school if his brother was absent or in prison
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Link to long thread ....
Sorry copied wrong thing will try again ....or just put George Vincent in Search box
you did well to start from dna point of view
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The names George and Robert do seem to be used by the same man:
1861 marriage: Robert
1861 census: Robert
1871 census: George
1873 baptism: Robert
1875 baptism: Robert
1876 baptism: Robert
1881 census: George
1883 school: George (father of Mary)
1891 census: George
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Are these the relevant family baptisms, all at St Pancras?
04 May 1873: Mary Augusta Jane Susannah Vincent, b 27 Dec 1872, abode 29 Ossulston St.
20 Sep 1875: Robert Richard Vincent, b 24 Feb 1871, abode 29 Ossulston St.
24 Jul 1876: Mary Eliza Amelia Vincent, b 06 June 1875, abode 35 Clarendon St.
All children of Robert (cab driver) and Mary.
Yes these are the children. I have never been able to confirm why the name George was on the 1881 Census but Robert was married to Mary. There were two brothers, George 1837 and Robert 1835, both born Chatham Kent. I have pretty comprehensive records for George. I think he married Elizabeth Jater (1840) but they had no children. Another thing is that Robert and Mary were married for a good 10 years before the above children were born. Maybe Robert and George couldn't have children. It's all a mystery.
Thank you for your help.
I have been going round in circles for some years and hoped DNA would help.
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This is fascinating story
I'm reading the other thread but have only got to page 6maybe you could summarise what you do know
2 things that came up for me is that baptising the children in Uk would be normal if they were a different religion before adopted or just because they wanted a family ceremony ..who were godparents .?
My grandmother had a different middle name on birth certificate and baptism I think because her middle name was used to identify the father and once a judgement for payment had been obtained ed she could baptise her baby with middle name of her own choosing
Second on school records my great grandfather appears in the parent or guardian column for his little sister ..your George could have been taking his niece to school if his brother was absent or in prison
I don't think the godparents' names are mentioned are mentioned on the baptism records I have seen. Would there be further more detailed records of the event?
Her names were Mary Eliza Amelia, so no clues of another surname from those.
I will make a copy as best I can of the information I do know.
Thank you for your thoughts
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How odd that Robert used his brother’s name George in at least four records (see list at reply #10).
Godparents’ names are not listed (one does sometimes find them, but predominantly in Catholic records).
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George and Robert do seem to be the same man:
1861 marriage: Robert
1861 census: Robert
1871 census: George
1873 baptism: Robert
1875 baptism: Robert
1876 baptism: Robert
1881 census: George
1883 school: George
1891 census: George
Yes I have wavered between thinking Robert assumed his brother's name at times (in the earlier thread someone on here found he was in prison for two years), but if I remember right that was before the children appeared. I think was 1867.
In which case the records of George married to Elizabeth Jater might be a totally unrelated George, although they were both born in Chatham, Kent. But I do have his birth certificate George William and he was married as George William.
So I am pretty sure Robert for some reason assumed his brother's name!
But there is no getting away from the fact that the census says they were born abroad, which was either a lie or fact.
Thank you for your efforts. :)
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Mary Vincent was a labour wife and looked after new mothers ...it seemed she also boarded children ...this would be for payment. ..maybe she adopted some children when payments stopped .my grandma started out as a boarded and was adopted daughter on the next census
Back to the DNA ..question ....do you have descendents of your grandmothers siblings with tests? If these children were all adopted some may have been from same family. .I like the idea that the many names were their original names plus VINCENT names ...sometimes unmarried mothers gave a girl the grandmothers first name to strengthen case of who she declared was birth father &keep in with his family
With your DNA results I strongly recommend using the match button to see which 4th cousins inter relate
Also use the match by location option if someone with relations i France or south Africa turn up ..that's a good chance it will link to birth parents
. Have you got any dna circles yet ?
It doesn't help that people have closed trees ...and you have to word messages very precostly to get an answer.
What is your closest potential match from a tree so far ? ..."2nd cousins" would be ideal for detective work ....is it clear on your tree that these children may be adopted?
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Hi brigidmac and thank you again.
Which record describes Mary as a "labour wife"? Her mother in law Ellen Vincent (1799) in the 1851 census she is a "monthly nurse".
Refence asking others in my family to take the test. There are no siblings of Mary are still alive. I am thinking of asking my one cousin who I am in contact with if she will do a DNA test. I am aware though that some people do not like the idea so would not want to upset her. I could also ask my sister but wonder how valuable that test would be statistically. Our mother died in 1996 so no hope there.
Yes I have cross related all the shared matches of each match. We made a massive chart to try and get our heads round it. There is a line which have people in Mary's geographical area, St. Pancras/Camden but it was an incredibly densely populated place in the late 1800s. It would be so much easier if she had been born in a little village in Devon!
I could try France but have a sneaking suspicion that was a red herring which George thought up on the fly.
I do not have any DNA circles.
I do not think I have any matches which I would class as possible links to Mary. The only second cousin match was to a different branch eg my mother's father's sister. Would she be a second cousin. Have to admit I don't fully understand 2nd 3rd etc cousin relationships.
No, how does one show a child may have been adopted?
Braytons
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Have to admit I don't fully understand 2nd 3rd etc cousin relationships.
Handy chart here. https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/family-history-chart.html
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I don't remember where in the 20 page topic I read about the labour wife definition ...sorry .
Adoption wasn't official before 1915 I believe I meant that DNA could show if a child was a blood relative or not ...the official 2nd cousin definition is you share mutual great grandparents or great grand children but it is only a guide
line to distance of relationship .For example the man who shares a grandmother with my mother comes out as being 2nd cousin closeness to her and 3rd cousin to me.
Whereas her true full cousin is my 2nd cousin on DNA as well as on the family tree.
Mothers fathers sister your great aunt would come out as 1st.-2ndcousin relationship on dna her children would be official 2nd cousins.
Is that the result you got ?
So yes very useful to have cousins dna for elimination
You can look at younger generations for links too
1 of my paternal 4th cousin matches didn't know who his grandfather was but because of his surnames I could work out he was 5x grandson of my grandfather's sister .
Maybe your answers will come from someone whose DNA fits their tree except to your link .....don't give up hope .
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Adoption wasn't official before 1915 I believe I
Actual date, in the UK, was 1st January 1927 ;D
That was following The Adoption Of Children Act 1926.
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Did you ever find out how to look up French records ?
I found a way on Ancestry to put in births and focus collection on France
The 1st hit that came up with those first names was a Marie eliZa Emilia Jaquinot
B 11 April 1871 in Marne France
You would have to list all girls with similar names and wait and see if you have any dna matches with French surnames
Also in Birth mariage death section there is a sub category for UK foreign and overseas as register of British subjects
And there is a section for BMW at sea
But probably not worth trawling through unless you have any proof of their original birth names .
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Did you ever find out how to look up French records ?
I found a way on Ancestry to put in births and focus collection on France
The 1st hit that came up with those first names was a Marie eliZa Emilia Jaquinot
B 11 April 1871 in Marne France
You would have to listen all girls with similar names and wait and see if you have any dna matches with French surnames
Also in Birth mariage death section there is a sub category for UK foreign and ovelse as register of British subjects
And there is a section for BMW at sea
But probably not worth trawling through unless you have any proof of their original birth names .
Thank you brigidmac
No I haven't done the French records yet. I am going to get the Worldwide subscription soon and will be able to have a search. The entry you found sounds very interesting. What an amazing coincidence of names! Or maybe it is her, although the dob is incorrect. Her birthday was 6 June 1875. Also the census says South of France but the Marne is in the north.
Thank you for the help. I had not thought of looking out for French surnames in the matches, good thought. I will keep you posted of any developments.
Braytons
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Also In uk foreign & overseas register theres a record of
Joseph.VINCENT military man and wife Ellen
BIrths of their 4 children
CAtherine 11 July 1865 & Charles roBert 17 july 1869 in Kingston
Maria Elizabeth 1 July 1870 and Helen 22 Aug 1872 in Malta
In 1881 Joseph is a pensioner wife and eldest children listed as born Canada
Ellen
* marie elizabeth 8 ( modified )
*And a younger brother age 6 born Malta
So a seafaring family could well have children born France and south America. .there are plenty of entries for Chile and Argentina. .
I wonder if you can see if any other children Mary Vincent boarded were from naval or army families ... Daisy (Margaret)Hughes in 1851 had an army father
& if this Vincent family is connected to yours ?
Father Joseph born in Cornwall. .think it says penzance
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Also In uk foreign & overseas register theres a record of
Joseph.vincent military man and wife Ellen
BIrths of their 4 children
CAtherine 11 July 1865 & Charles roBert 17 july 1869 in Kingston
Maria Elizabeth 1 July 1870 and Helen 22 Aug 1872 in Malta
In 1881 Joseph is a pensioner wife and eldest children listed as borequested Canada
Ellen born Malta
No sign of Maria Elizabeth
And a younger brother age 6 born Cornwall
So a seafaring family could well have children born France and south America. .there are plenty of entries for Chili and Argentina. .
I wonder if you can see if any of the children Mary Vincent boarded were from naval or army families ... Daisy (Margaret)H was mentioned
& if this Vincent family is connected to yours ?
Father Joseph born in Cornwall. .think it says penzance
Wow, all that will keep me busy. Thank you for all your efforts.
Just shows you that children were born abroad and brought back here to England. When I first found the 1881, I found it difficult to imagine a family like them travelling abroad. Robert/George Vincent was only a Cabman.
However Robert/George Vincent's father was a seaman. His name was Benjamin Vincent b.1794. So there is a possibility of children coming from abroad. Benjamin Vincent had a brother called Joseph. But if I have the correct family they all came from Suffolk, don't remember any mention of Cornwall. Vincent is a quite common Cornish surname.
Could you tell me what search facility did you use, Ancestry, Find my Past etc?
Thank you again.
Braytons
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I used Ancestry but find searches hard on there
I played around with French data a bit .
But can't get any censuses
The French do like to go in for severa names
I couldn't find a death or marriage for Marie eliza emilie Jaquinot and there seemed to be 2 birth dates and a possible sister Marie rose
The parents marriage was 15th Feb 1870 Isidore Emilien Jaquinot b 1842 married
Marie Elizabeth Angeline Herriard b1847
Wouldn't it be thrilling if their daughter was your grandmother..named partly after her paternal grandmother Marie Emilie Baudot or aunt Marie Amelia Jaquinot
Probably just a name coincidence
I found a death for Isidore in 1878 in Ponthion also in Marne..Champagne region !
Ps are you sure it says south of France. ..there is a line crossed through and first letter could be a N
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To add to the Mystery
Mary Vincent got herself baptised as an adult in 1883 naming Luke and Sarah York as her parents.
I'm fascinated by this family have set out a chart to make more sense
DNA matches with your cousins who have VINCENT/ REEVE grand parents would not prove the adoption theory
There would be no DNA 2nd cousins if robert/ j/ George Vincent and Mary Yorke had no bIrth children and Robert richard descendants if linked to you could be if they adopted siblings .
Why not contact tree holders of descendants of Luke and Susan Yorke and Benjamin and Ellen Vincent and ask if any have done the DNA test as you? They could have 4th cousin matches or may be interested in helping you solve your mystery if no name matches among distant cousins trees at all .. you then have to look at surnames which keep cropping up to give clues to birth parents .
Can I ask what your ethnicity results gave ? Any European?
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To add to the Mystery
Mary Vincent got herself baptised as an adult in 1883 naming Luke and Sarah York as her parents.
I'm fascinated by this family have set out a chart to make more sense
DNA matches with your cousins who have VINCENT/ REEVE grand parents would not prove the adoption theory
There would be no DNA 2nd cousins if robert/ j/ George Vincent and Mary Yorke had no bIrth children and Robert richard descendants if linked to you could be if they adopted siblings .
Why not contact tree horders of descendants of Luke and Susan Yorke and Benjamin and Ellen Vincent and ask if any have done the DNA test as you? They could have 4th cousin matches or may be interested in helping you solve your mystery if no name matches among distant cousins trees at all .. you then have to look at surnames which keep cropping up to give clues to birth parents .
Can I ask what your ethnicity results gave ? Any European?
Hi
Don't have any cousins from the Yorke side of the family. I don't think there any children of Robert or George, have not been able to find any. Yes I have been looking for a possible match to a woman/man who is close but has no paper records to show they are related. That would only be if they were adopted or born abroad. I don't have a huge extended family who I am in contact with. My sister is going to have a test but I doubt that will help alot.
The foreign births look so possible. I will try to make sense of it all. We made a chart of Robert, George and Mary's lives to try to make sense of whether they were the same man.
This is my ethnicity result. There is a German connection 3 generations back so that would account for that. It also covers western Europe but its a fraction so I would have thought statistically irrelevant.
England, Wales & Northwestern Europe
91%
Southern England
Norway
3%
Ireland and Scotland
3%
Germanic Europe
3%
Thank you again
Braytons
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I don't remember where in the 20 page topic I read about the labour wife definition ...sorry .
Adoption wasn't official before 1915 I believe I meant that DNA could show if a child was a blood relative or not ...the official 2nd cousin definition is you share mutual great grandparents or great grand children but it is only a guide
line to distance of relationship .For example the man who shares a grandmother with my mother comes out as being 2nd cousin closeness to her and 3rd cousin to me.
Whereas her true full cousin is my 2nd cousin on DNA as well as on the family tree.
Mothers fathers sister your great aunt would come out as 1st.-2ndcousin relationship on dna her children would be official 2nd cousins.
Is that the result you got ?
So yes very useful to have cousins dna for elimination
You can look at younger generations for links too
1 of my paternal 4th cousin matches didn't know who his grandfather was but because of his surnames I could work out he was 5x grandson of my grandfather's sister .
Maybe your answers will come from someone whose DNA fits their tree except to your link .....don't give up hope .
Hi Brigidmac
Just occurred to me maybe where you found the idea of Mary taking in children/labour wife. On the 1881 census in addition to the two children, Mary Eliza Amelia and Robert Richard, there is a one year old girl called Daisy Muriel Hughes living with the family. I had forgotten. I have found her baptism, parents Godwin Hughes and Elizabeth. He is a Captain in the Army. Apart from that baptism I can't find anything more about them which is disappointing.
Cheers
Braytons
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It was on 1841 census as her profession...wife crossed out.
Also I wondered if she was doing day care for the Moss widower who was living in same house his children were 2 and 4.
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On the 1881 census in addition to the two children, Mary Eliza Amelia and Robert Richard, there is a one year old girl called Daisy Muriel Hughes living with the family. I had forgotten. I have found her baptism, parents Godwin Hughes and Elizabeth. He is a Captain in the Army. Apart from that baptism I can't find anything more about them which is disappointing.
Daisy Muriel appears to have been illegitimate. I think that her mother was probably Elizabeth HUGHES, and father Godwin had a different surname.
HUGHES, DAISY MURIEL
No mother's maiden surname
GRO Reference: 1879 D Quarter in CHELSEA Volume 01A Page 350
Debra :)
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Daisy is who I thought she probably was. Her supposed father was an Officer at Colchester in 1881.
Daisy Muriel AUSTEN
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 8 Feb 1880
Baptism Place: Somers Town Christ Church, Camden, England
Father: Alfred Godwin AUSTEN
Mother: Elizabeth Hughes AUSTEN
The mother is just named as Elizabeth HUGHES.
Debra :)
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Daisy is who I thought she probably was. Her supposed father was an Officer at Colchester in 1881.
Daisy Muriel AUSTEN
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 8 Feb 1880
Baptism Place: Somers Town Christ Church, Camden, England
Father: Alfred Godwin AUSTEN
Mother: Elizabeth Hughes AUSTEN
The mother is just named as Elizabeth HUGHES.
Debra :)
Thank you Debra
I had not seen that baptism before. I had found another :
Daisy Muriel Hughes
Gender: Female
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 1 Feb 1880
Baptism Place: South Kensington St Luke, Kensington and Chelsea, England
Father: Godwin Hughes
Mother: Elizabeth Hughes
On the photocopy of that baptism it says they lived at 37 Gunter Grove and he was a "Captain in the Army". Certainly sounds like the same people. I wonder if they got married in the week between the baptisms?
All very odd. Godwin is such an unusual name there can't be that many.
Additionally there is an Electoral Register in 1887:
Godwin Hughes
Year: 1887
County or Borough: Kensington and Chelsea
Ward or Division/Constituency: South Division
Street address: 83 Princes mews
Reference Number: MR/PER/B/127
All this certainly adds evidence to the idea that the two children I am trying to trace (one my Grandmother) were adopted but unofficially I suppose.
Braytons
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It's strange that Godwin changed his surname. .didn't someone find the census record of him with wife & Daisy .
Your grandmother and brother may never have known their true parentage
I don't think my grandmother knew she was adopted may have thought she was brought up by grandparents
She sent for her full birth certificate when she was in her 50's and wrote her birth mother who asked her not to contact her again ! We found this letter and birth certificate after she died
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Hi Brigid
Very odd about the surname change or was it just a mistake by the record keeper? I have not seen a census with Godwin and Elizabeth together I don't think.
I think perhaps you are right about my grandmother not knowing her parentage. Certainly there was no hint from my mother. I only met my grandmother once or twice when I was about 7 years old. We didn't discuss parentage. :)
Your mother must have been very sad about that. Rejected twice. I have heard that is not atall unusual.
Belinda
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BIG News I think
I looked into the Jacquinot family and there is a connection to London
I've added it to Isidore Jacquinot but it's not his child
Father was a shoemaker. B Can you see document or copy details when I add them on the private tree
so looks like birth date may be out ..my grandmother always said she was born 1900 but in fact it was dec.1899
Having a lunch break now ..hope to find more soon .
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BIG News I think
I looked into the Jacquinot family and there is a connection to London
I've added it to Isidore Jacquinot but it's not his child
Father was a shoemaker. B Can you see document or copy details when I add them on the private tree
so looks like birth date may be out ..my grandmother always said she was born 1900 but in fact it was dec.1899
Having a lunch break now ..hope to find more soon .
I don't think I will be able to view the document but I can see the details linked to the family. You have done so well.
I too must eat.
Belinda
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Baptism of Lean Louis JACQUINOT in Westminster London
transcribed as1832 but the original has clearly pen.marked birth as 1881 baptism year is 1882
Fathers name is Antoine.Victor (not Teller) Isidore JACQUINOT
a shoe maket
mother is Sophie .
There seem to have been Jaquinot.s in London since 1830.s when a Antoine.Felix JAQUINOT married Sophie Josephine ?
May be someone could play around with
English censuses to link to the shoemaker or Isodore
Isodore Emilien JAQUINOT died in 1875
May explain why child had to be fostered out .the fact that census has BS British subject may imply that Marie Amelia Vincent needed some legal document as her birth parents were French
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Baptism of Lean Louis JACQUINOT i Westminster London
transcribed as1832 buthe original has clearly pen.marked birth as 1881 baptism year is 1882
Fathers name is Antoine.Victor (not Teller)
Isidore JACQUINOT a shoe maket
mother is Sophie .
There seem to have been Jaquinot.s in London since 1830.s when a Antoine.Felix JAQUINOT married Sophie Josephine ?
May be someone could play around with
English censuses to link to the shoemaker or Isodore
Isodore Emilien JAQUINOT died in 1875
May ex plain why child had to be fostered out .the fact that census has BS British subject may imply that Marie Amelia Vincent havery needed some legal document as her parents were French
You have done so well Brigid. I think you are right about the death of Isodore might have precipitated bringing the children to England. I wonder if the mother died in England? I will doing some scouring of census in England for the family.
That baptism at St Anne's Westminster - I read it as Jean Louis Jacquinot and also I think its born 29 December 1831 and baptised 23 September 1832. More than likely a relation though. The mother was Sophie Josephine, possibly the same lady in the marriage you mention above?
Thank you
Belinda
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Well the ones we do know for sure are Isodore Emilien and Marie Emilie whose parENTS are named on their marriage
So look out for surnames HERARD BAUDOT and COLSON on any trees of people whose DNA does match
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Well the ones we do know for sure are Isodore Emilien and Marie Emilie whose parENTS are named on their marriage
So look out for surnames HERARD BAUDOT and COLSON on any trees of people whose DNA does match
Yes spot on. I had not thought of checking those names. I will have a check now.
Belinda
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Well the ones we do know for sure are Isodore Emilien and Marie Emilie whose parENTS are named on their marriage
So look out for surnames HERARD BAUDOT and COLSON on any trees of people whose DNA does match
Yes spot on. I had not thought of checking those names. I will have a check now.
Belinda
Colson surname has a link but the DNA shows this:
Predicted relationship: Distant Cousins
Possible range: 5th - 8th cousins
So a bit of a long shot?
Belinda
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Not too long of a shot because Coulson was Isodore s mothers name so the link could be via her parents or grandparents who may well have been English
Will they let you look at trees or say if have any French connections
Worth asking them ....about their mutual tree matches ....do they match by location? Have you tried putting in match search with location of France and seeing if any of your DNA matches have people in France on their trees if you search Coulson surname and France location does anyone come up .
:D I've a good feeling about this
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Not too long of a shot because Coulson was Isodore s mothers name so the link could be via her parents or grandparents who may well have been English
Will they let you look at trees or say if have any French connections
Worth asking them ....about their mutual tree matches ....do they match by location? Have you tried putting in match search with location of France and seeing if any of your DNA matches have people in France on their trees if you search Coulson surname and France location does anyone come up .
:D I've a good feeling good about this
I will do everything you suggest and get back to you. Yes I can see the tree with the Colson match. I think I will do an great deal more digging before I approach anyone. :-\
Annoyingly I have to out tomorrow to something I have been looking forward to but this Mary Vincent thing seems so much more exciting right now.
Belinda
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Yes I'm thrilled by The French Connection
I love all the exotic names and the fact that they don't seem to Angliscise them too much .
I've found a few documents I've never seen before for Jacquinot s
Alien arrival in UK
a girls marriage as a minor(mineur) but won't list them on here unless we know it's the same family
Thanks for providing the challenge btw I used to live in France so should be able to translate documents
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Re DNA matches
Did you put in name and location ?
have you tried a search with just France as location. No names
Does the Coulson connection person still show up as a match
Do you have any distant cousins with a French connection according to DNA ...if there are any look closely at the map for matched locations sometimes people put Paris when they mean France .maybe Marne will come up..the matching arrows are the green ones .but yours will come up as south of France if that is what's on your tree.
....looking forward to your feedback
I'm liking these Jaquinot leads .
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Re DNA matches
Did you put in name and location ?
have you tried a search with just France as location. No names
Does the Coulson connection person still show up as a match
Do you have any distant cousins with a French connection according to DNA ...if there are any look closely at the map for matched locations sometimes people put Paris when they mean France .maybe Marne will come up..the matching arrows are the green ones .but yours will come up as south of France if that is what's on your tree.
....looking forward to your feedback
I'm liking these Jaquinot leads .
Hi Brigid
I have assembled all the Jacquinot Census' in London. I am very slow at doing it cos I write out longhand on paper the family and other occupants from each census . I find its the only way I can get a the families in my head. There seem to be half a dozen families but most of the census are too late eg after my Grandmother was born. I haven't yet been able to tie up any of them to families in France, certainly not with any degree of accuracy.
There is one Jacquinot family living at Park Villas Islington which maybe connected, but its only the father Etienne who was born in France in 1819 and I think the census says France Jura which is a long way from the Marne. He is a professor of singing with his English wife Margaret born in Liverpool, in the same house is sister in law Sarah Ellen Harrison so I presume Margaret's maiden name is Harrison. I will search more of this family.
I have not yet pursued the Colson connection. I don't think any of the people in the censuses I have found relate to Colsons. I need to make trees of the people in the censuses which I will do.
I don't have any names in my DNA matches with the surname Colson. There is a Coulson. But on first impressions it doesn't appear hopeful. But I will look again.
I do have a few DNA matches with France connections if I simply search with France alone as you suggest. Especially if I search through shared matches. Most are obscure ones dating back to the 1600 1700's so difficult to pursue. There is one:
Jeanne Jacques
1637–1700
BIRTH 1637 • France
married to a
Godfrey Kirk
1612–1705
BIRTH 1612 • Leicestershire, England
DEATH 1705 • England
Maybe Jacques became Jacquinot but it's a long leap!
There is one very interesting family, which might be just a coincidence of name. But I am going to pursue it because it is a name that is the same as one of my close matches that I have already confirmed, but by a different branch of my tree. He is going to ring me at the weekend and I will ask him if he knows of any connection with France or the name Jacquinot. I will not show the match on here as it would give his name but will ask him if I can discuss his tree with you as you are helping me with my research. In the mean time I will see if I can trace a Marie M Jacquinot born 1855 in France, possbily Paris.
Very exciting.
Belinda
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Great work ...
Sometimes you have to go back to come forwards you may have to find the uncles aunts or nephews neices of the Jacquinot in England
I'm busy but will check in from time to time to see progress
Am preparing a Time Travel Detective club
And hope to do a "history mystery "series on community radio I work for
Your story would be great. .
I'm supposed to stick to local radio & have my own stories to tell and some Leicester mysteries to solve .first B