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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Aberdeenshire => Topic started by: Wendy A. Robb on Sunday 25 November 18 00:38 GMT (UK)
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I've only been able to trace my husband's family back to James Robb b~1782, my husband's 5xg grandfather. Wondering if anyone can help me get farther? They lived in Rathen, Aberdeenshire and it looks like James and maybe a few of the younger generations were farmers at Bluebog Farm. This James apparently married Isabella Stewart (b~1780, her parents were Charles Stewart and Margaret Grant). I've not been able to find birth, marriage or death certificates for James and Isabella. James and Isabella had my husband's 4xg grandfather George Robb (b1810) who married Elizabeth Campbell. I might have found James in the 1841 census but Isabella isn't on it. She may have died by then. The 1841 census has my husband's ancestor George as 25 and a Christian as 20, but there are some more that are aged 10, 15 and even 3 (has a last name Barber listed so might not be relate) so James may have remarried?
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in the 1851 census Ann Barber is still living with James and is shown to be his grand daughter there are also 2 other grandchildren there as well with the surname Cowie age 6 and 3 possibly illegitimate children of James daughters
John appears to be the youngest child of James so Isabella possibly died after that although can't see a baptisim for him or there is one for a John born to parents James Robb and Grace Johnston
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The family you have found in 1841 are he family of James Robb and Grace Johnston married 1810 and not of James and Isabella so possibly they both died before the census
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Lastly the only child I could find for James Robb and Isobel/Isabella Stewart was an Alexander b 1816 which was in Aberdour which is the same place George and Elisabeth were married
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I think I may have found your James Robb ;D
There's an MI in Aberdour kirkyard for the Robb family which has Isobel Stewart dying 2 Oct 1831. A James Robb appears on the same memorial - he died on 10 Sep 1864. The death registration for this James Robb has him as aged 81, a widower (no spouses names), the son of William Robb and Janet Ogilvie. The death was registered in Pitsligo by James' son-in-law, Robert Sutherland (m. Jean/Jane Robb in 1844 in Pitsligo).
This James Robb is with his (presumably) second wife, Mary Stewart/Stuart in Aberdour in the 1841 and 1851 censuses - by 1861, he is a widower. James is noted as being born in Keith, Banffshire, Mary in New Deer, Aberdeenshire. He married Mary Stewart in 1833 - it looks like she died in 1852.
I can't find a William Robb and Janet Ogilvie, but I can see a George Robb and Janet Ogilvie, who married in 1769 in Keith, and had a number of children baptised in Keith, so this could well be the family, although James isn't one of the names recorded.
Ruth
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For sake of completeness, these are the only baptisms I can see for James Rob(b) and Isabella Stewart, all baptised in Aberdour:
- George, 9 Jun 1810
- James, 28 Mar 1812
- Alexander, 5 Nov 1816
- John,13 Jul 1820
Ruth
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On to Isabella Stewart/Stuart...
There's an Isabel Stuart baptised 16 Dec 1780 in Aberlour, Banffshire - parents Charles Stuart and Margaret Grant. This couple may be the couple who were married in Knockando, Moray in Feb 1780 - Aberlour and Knockando are neighbouring parishes.
Ruth
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This James apparently married Isabella Stewart (b~1780, her parents were Charles Stewart and Margaret Grant).
Where did you get this from? What proof do you have of Isabella's parents' names?
There's an Isabel Stuart baptised 16 Dec 1780 in Aberlour, Banffshire - parents Charles Stuart and Margaret Grant. This couple may be the couple who were married in Knockando, Moray in Feb 1780 - Aberlour and Knockando are neighbouring parishes.
Are you possibly confusing Aberdour, which is on the Aberdeenshire coast west of Fraserburgh, and Aberlour in Banffshire, which is next to Knockando in Moray and quite a long way away in early 19th century terms?[/quote]
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Are you confusing Aberdour, which is on the Aberdeenshire coast west of Fraserburgh, and Aberlour in Banffshire, which is next to Knockando in Moray and quite a long waya away in early 19th century terms?
I don't think so, unless SP has the parish of Isabel Stuart's baptism recorded incorrectly (Ancestry does it all the time ::) ) - although I agree the distance between the two parishes is quite large. This baptism could be for a different Isabel Stuart of course...
I'm about to follow father Charles Stuart and Isabel's siblings to see if they ended up closer to Aberdour...
Ruth
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Are you confusing Aberdour, which is on the Aberdeenshire coast west of Fraserburgh, and Aberlour in Banffshire, which is next to Knockando in Moray and quite a long way away in early 19th century terms?
I don't think so, unless SP has the parish of Isabel Stuart's baptism recorded incorrectly (Ancestry does it all the time ::) ) - although I agree the distance between the two parishes is quite large. This baptism could be for a different Isabel Stuart of course...
That's exactly what is bothering me about Isabella's parentage - that someone has found only one Isabella Stewart of roughly the right age and assumed she's the right one. Ancestry and other web sites also do that quite a lot :)
Her family were George, James, Alexander and John, so it seems unlikely that he father was Charles, unless of course there was an older unrecorded child named Charles.
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Her family were George, James, Alexander and John, so it seems unlikely that he father was Charles, unless of course there was an older unrecorded child named Charles.
I know - what bothers me is that James Robb's second wife was also a Stewart/Stuart - and she was from New Deer. I find the coincidence... too much of a coincidence ;D I can't help feeling they may have been related - although I appreciate that Stuart/Stewart is a pretty common name.
Ruth
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Related thread https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=239437
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Rightly or wrongly, I concluded several years ago that the George Rob who was baptised in Aberdour on 9 June 1810 (child of James Rob & Isobel Stewart) is:
(a) the same George Robb who married Elizabeth Campbell on 8 Nov 1829 and went on to father (1) Wendy from Canada's husband's ancestor James and (2) my ancestor William Campbell; and
(b) the same George Robb who died on 8 Mar 1883 at Bluebog Farm, Rathen.
If there is any doubt about that, then any names further back in my tree are also in doubt! Unfortunately this was quite near the start of my research and I made the usual mistake of not documenting all my sources! >:(
I have a contact who has a Prayer Book that has on the flyleaf "belongs to James Robb" (no certainty as to which one!)
The 1st page of the Prayer Book has names with year of birth, all surnames Robb (William 1771, Margaret 1776, George 1777, James 1783, Jean 1789, John 1791.)
The 2nd page has dates of birth for the children of, we think, James & Isobel (George 9 Jun 1801*, James 19 Mar 1812, Cathren 17 Apr 1814, Alexander 5 Nov 1816, John 11 Jul 1820, Jean 12 Jul 1820, Mary 9 Jul 1822 and William 4 May 1827.)
*George's DOB is written as 1801, but we think it is an error and should be 1810 - we have the marriage of James & Isobel in 1809, and the other children are dated 1812-1827.
If we can agree that George is the son of James Robb and Isobel/Isabella Stewart then we need to identify which James Robb it is in the records. I had assumed like Ruth that the James Robb in Aberdour kirkyard who died 11 Sep 1864 at Barnyards of Pitsligo is the same man, and he was therefore the son of William Robb and Janet Ogilvie. He was 81, which ties in with the DoB for James Robb (1783) in the aforementioned Prayer Book. I have no further information for William or Janet.
I have struggled to find definite entries in the 1841 Census for James Robb and his family, although it's possible George might have been working as an Agricultural Labourer at House of Mill.
The James Robb living in Rathen in 1841 appears to be quite different, but it is possible that the James living as a crofter with Mary in AberLour is the right one - while it seems far away it does tie in with the 1851 census (see below) where James & Mary are farming in AberDour parish. Marrying Mary Stewart in 1833 would fit with the death of his wife in 1831 when the youngest child was only 4, (although it's also possible that the oldest girl (Cathren/Catherine) was 17 and might have been roped in to do the household chores. The 1851 census record of James (b1783) and his wife Mary farming 40 acres at Killyquharon, AberDour is quite compelling, and if so then James was actually born in Keith, Banffshire.
Mary (Stewart) Robb, if it is she (?), claims in the 1861 census to have been born c1785 in New Deer, and I cannot see her in the 1861 census. Death registration only began in 1855 and I cannot find her death after that date unfortunately, as that would have given her parentage. The New Deer parish register shows a Mary Stewart baptised on 17 Mar 1781 to John & Jean Stewart, and this MAY be her - it was not unknown for a prospective wife to shave a few years off her age! (Note there is also a Mary Stewart baptised in 1784 in Rathen to Robert Stewart.)
So - more work to be done!
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Just trying to get my head round all this
1841 census, Sauchintree, Aberdour
James Robb, 55, born Aberdeenshire
Mary Stuart, 55, Aberdeenshire
1851 census: Backhill of Killyquharn, Aberdour
James Robb, 68, born Keith
Mary Robb, wife, 66, born New Deer
1861 census: South Killy Wharn, Aberdour
James Robb, widower, 78, born Keith
Lydia Birnie, servant, 72, born New Deer
So he was born 1782/1783. There is a gap in the recorded children of George Rob and Janet Ogilvie between 1777 and 1792.
1841 Census: Bluebog, Rathen
John Robb, 66, Aberdeenshire
Jean Robb, 60, Aberdeenshire
1841 census: Village of New Aberdour
Elizabeth Robb, 40
James Robb, 5
Mary Robb, 2
1851 Census: Bluebog, Rathen
George Robb, 40, born Aberdour
Elisabeth Robb, wife, 50, born Aberdour
Alexander Robb, 21, born Aberdour
George Robb, 18, born Aberdour
Mary Robb, 11, born Aberdour
William Robb, 8, born Aberdour
Margaret Campbel, 70, born Aberdour
1861 census: Bluebog, Rathen
George Robb, 50; Elizabeth, 60; Alexander, 31; William, 18; Margaret Campbell, 82, all born Aberdour
1871 Census: Bluebog, Rathen
George Robb, 60; Elisabeth, 70; William, 27; Ann, granddaughter, 11; first three born Aberdour, Ann born Rathen
George died in 1883, and death cert says that his wife was Elizabeth Campbell and parents William Robb and Janet Ogilvie. William could be an error for George.
So what connection is there, if any between John and Jean Robb who were in Bluebog in 1841, and George Robb who was there from 1851 onwards? Are John and Jean the John R and Jean Reid who had two sons John in Rathen in 1814 and 1817? Their banns were called in both Rathen and Lonmay in 1813. John, incidentally, is far too old to be the son of George R and Janet Ogilvie, who was baptised in 1792.
What connection, if any, is there between Elizabeth Campbell or Robb and Margaret Campbell?
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Good summary of all the threads, Forfarian! A couple of errors, though (I think).
1) In 1841 the James Robb living with Mary Stuart was in AberLour, not AberDour.
2) The 1883 death registration for George Robb actually shows his parents as having been James Robb (Crofter) and Isabella Stewart. See below.
The 1864 death registration for James Robb (b1783) shows his parents as having been William Robb & Janet Ogilvie. However, in 1769 Janet Ogilvie married GEORGE Rob in Keith, which would fit perfectly with the births (1771-1791) of the children on the Prayer Book. There are baptisms in Keith for William (1771) and George (1777) to George Rob & Janet Ogilvie, and the dates fit with the Prayer Book entries.
I haven't checked the death registrations for any of James' siblings, but in any event it is possible that those who registered the death(s) got it wrong, and I think it is probable that James' parents were actually GEORGE Robb & Janet Ogilvie.
Re the Robbs at Bluebog in 1841/1851:
I can't place with 100% accuracy the John Robb (born c1775). The date fits within the range of children on the flyleaf of the Prayer Book (1771-1791) but as Forfarian rightly says it cannot be the John born in 1791, baptised in 1792.
Here's my theory .....
There was a John Rob baptised 1 Mar 1778 in Keith to James Rob & Anna Burges. Might George Robb (Janet Ogilvie's husband as I now believe) be the brother of James (Anna Burges' husband)? If so, this might make the John Robb in Bluebog in 1841 the cousin of the George Robb who was at Bluebog in 1851>. I'm satisfied that the George Robb in 1851> is the George born in 1810 to James Robb & Isobella Stewart.
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Good summary of all the threads, Forfarian! A couple of errors, though (I think).
1) In 1841 the James Robb living with Mary Stuart was in AberLour, not AberDour.
See the attachment.
2) The 1883 death registration for George Robb actually shows his parents as having been James Robb (Crofter) and Isabella Stewart.
The 1864 death registration for James Robb (b1783) shows his parents as having been William Robb & Janet Ogilvie.
I did mean to type James R in 1864, not George R in 1883. Mea culpa.
However, in 1769 Janet Ogilvie married GEORGE Rob in Keith, which would fit perfectly with the births (1771-1791) of the children on the Prayer Book. There are baptisms in Keith for William (1771) and George (1777) to George Rob & Janet Ogilvie, and the dates fit with the Prayer Book entries.
I haven't checked the death registrations for any of James' siblings, but in any event it is possible that those who registered the death(s) got it wrong, and I think it is probable that James' parents were actually GEORGE Robb & Janet Ogilvie.
I agree.
There was a John Rob baptised 1 Mar 1778 in Keith to James Rob & Anna Burges. Might George Robb (Janet Ogilvie's husband as I now believe) be the brother of James (Anna Burges' husband)? If so, this might make the John Robb in Bluebog in 1841 the cousin of the George Robb who was at Bluebog in 1851.
It might indeed. John is down as 55, which means that he could have been 59, and if so he would have been born in 1781 or 1783, which is an error of only 3 years.
James Robb and Ann(a) Burgess were married in Boharm in 1769, and had five known children: Margaret 1771, James 1773, John 1778, Anna 1780-1864 m George Taylor and Isabella 1787-1865 m 1810 Robert Strachan 1786/7-1869. They have been on my radar for many years.
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Apologies, Forfarian, about the James Robb in the 1841 census. I was wrong.
I had been (foolishly) relying on an Ancestry transcription showing a 55 year old James Robb & Mary Stuart living in Sauchentree in AberLour, and I thought that was who you meant. But I can't find that census entry using Scotland'sPeople.
It seems an odd coincidence for the same names (even common ones) to be in two locations, exactly the same age and each marked as Crofter, and I can only conclude Ancestry have got it wrong. But where did they get "Sauchentree" (or "Sarchintrce" as the Ancestry transcription has it)? Or could James & Mary have had two properties (seems unlikely) or be in the process of moving?
I've now got the actual 1841 AberDour census and I agree it is likely that the James & Mary living at Killyquharn are the right ones.
I see on the same 1841 census pages there are also entries for Jean Robb (50) and Jean Robb (15). It's possible that Jean (50) is a married name, if not she could just possibly be the Jean (b1789) in the Prayer Book but it's a long way from Keith if that is the case. Jean (15) is, I think, most likely to be the child of James Robb & Grace Johnston, baptised 6 Sep 1827 in Rathen.
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I had been (foolishly) relying on an Ancestry transcription showing a 55 year old James Robb & Mary Stuart living in Sauchentree in AberLour, and I thought that was who you meant. But I can't find that census entry using Scotland'sPeople.
Probably because Ancestry confused Aberlour with Aberdour. I do not trust any transcription, and especially not those on Ancestry which have produced quite a few howlers. I use FreeCEN https://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl when possible, but even FreeCEN contains the occasional error, so I always plan to check the original so that any transcription errors are my own resposibility.
It seems an odd coincidence for the same names (even common ones) to be in two locations, exactly the same age and each marked as Crofter, and I can only conclude Ancestry have got it wrong. But where did they get "Sauchentree" (or "Sarchintrce" as the Ancestry transcription has it)? Or could James & Mary have had two properties (seems unlikely) or be in the process of moving?
No. SP has no listing of James Robb and Mary Stuart of those ages in Aberlour, and neither does FreeCEN. I am also prepared to stick my neck out and say there is no Sauchentree in Aberlour. (There is another one, in the parish of Methlick - see http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ8436.) It is far more likely that Ancestry's transcriber imagined that Aberdour and Aberlour were the same place. Sauchentree and Killywharn are close to one another east of the village of New Aberdour. https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=57.6597&lon=-2.1858&layers=5&b=1
I've now got the actual 1841 AberDour census and I agree it is likely that the James & Mary living at Killyquharn are the right ones.
I see on the same 1841 census pages there are also entries for Jean Robb (50) and Jean Robb (15). It's possible that Jean (50) is a married name, if not she could just possibly be the Jean (b1789) in the Prayer Book but it's a long way from Keith if that is the case.
But not, I think, impossible. Bear in mind that adults' ages were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years in 1841, so this Jean Robb could have been born any time between 1781 and 1786. She is in a household with a James Dickie, crofter, aged 45-49.
Jean (15) is, I think, most likely to be the child of James Robb & Grace Johnston, baptised 6 Sep 1827 in Rathen.
Maybe, but that Jean would have been only 13 years old on census day 1841, not 15. She is in the household of William Chapman, farmer, aged 20, so is likely to be a servant.
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Jean (15) is, I think, most likely to be the child of James Robb & Grace Johnston, baptised 6 Sep 1827 in Rathen.
Maybe, but that Jean would have been only 13 years old on census day 1841, not 15. She is in the household of William Chapman, farmer, aged 20, so is likely to be a servant.
I suggested this Jean as no other Jean Robb born in Aberdeenshire seems to be a better fit, and she may well have claimed to be 15 to get the post as servant. Of course, she could have come from further afield.
Another piece missing in the jigsaw: In 1841, in the "Village of New Aberdour", Elizabeth (presumably Campbell) Robb (40) is living with her father Alexander (68) and her children James (5) and Mary (2). No sign of husband George, though, so possibly working away? There's an entry for Peterhead that fits his age but no other evidence to support it.
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What connection, if any, is there between Elizabeth Campbell or Robb and Margaret Campbell?
I think I can answer that one ;D
Margaret Campbell died in 1864 - her death was registered by Alexander Robb (son of George Robb and Elizabeth Campbell), and he is noted as Margaret Campbell's grand nephew, so Margaret Campbell was Elizabeth Campbell's aunt.
Margaret's parents are noted as James Campbell, quarrier, and Janet Campbell (ms Cullen). There is a suitable baptism of a Margaret Campbell to a James Campbell in Aberdour on 28 Oct 1779. There is also a baptism for an Alexander Campbell to James Campbell and Janet Cullen on 18 Oct 1772, which matches the age of Elizabeth's father, Alexander.
On Elizabeth Campbell's death registration, her parents are noted as Alexander Campbell, farmer and Janet Gordon, domestic servant, so I think it's quite likely that Alexander didn't marry Elizabeth's mother.
Ruth
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PS - you two have been busy today ;D I'm playing catch-up.
Ruth
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What connection, if any, is there between Elizabeth Campbell or Robb and Margaret Campbell?
I think I can answer that one ;D
Margaret Campbell died in 1864 - her death was registered by Alexander Robb (son of George Robb and Elizabeth Campbell), and he is noted as Margaret Campbell's grand nephew, so Margaret Campbell was Elizabeth Campbell's aunt.
Margaret's parents are noted as James Campbell, quarrier, and Janet Campbell (ms Cullen). There is a suitable baptism of a Margaret Campbell to a James Campbell in Aberdour on 28 Oct 1779. There is also a baptism for an Alexander Campbell to James Campbell and Janet Cullen on 18 Oct 1772, which matches the age of Elizabeth's father, Alexander.
On Elizabeth Campbell's death registration, her parents are noted as Alexander Campbell, farmer and Janet Gordon, domestic servant, so I think it's quite likely that Alexander didn't marry Elizabeth's mother.
Ruth
I agree with that line of deduction, and I had previously come to the same conclusions. A further bit of deduction/guesswork led me to believe that the two witnesses to Margaret's 1779 baptism (John & George Campbell) could well have been James' brothers - all three were quarriers. This ties in with another Margaret Campbell who was baptised 18 Dec 1778 in Aberdour, daughter of George Campbell & Agnes Bruce - witnesses James Bruce and James Campbell. The two Margaret Campbells would then have been cousins.
One piece of information that I had NOT found was Alexander's baptism in 1772 - I can't see it on ScotlandsPeople, where did you get the (valuable) information?
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Mary (Stewart) Robb, if it is she (?), claims in the 1861 census to have been born c1785 in New Deer, and I cannot see her in the 1861 census. Death registration only began in 1855 and I cannot find her death after that date unfortunately, as that would have given her parentage. The New Deer parish register shows a Mary Stewart baptised on 17 Mar 1781 to John & Jean Stewart, and this MAY be her - it was not unknown for a prospective wife to shave a few years off her age! (Note there is also a Mary Stewart baptised in 1784 in Rathen to Robert Stewart.)
There is also a Mary Stuart baptised in New Deer 11 Dec 1783 to William Stuart & Isobel Heaton. This is closer to the DoB claimed by Mary in the 1851 Census, and the spelling STUART is that used in the 1841 census (not conclusive, I know!)
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One piece of information that I had NOT found was Alexander's baptism in 1772 - I can't see it on ScotlandsPeople, where did you get the (valuable) information?
From SP - the spelling of the surname may have meant it didn't come up, unless you'd selected Name Variants :)
Campbel Alexander, Parents: James Campbel/Jannet Cullen, 18/10/1772, Aberdour, Aberdeenshire 169/10 261
Ruth
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There is also a Mary Stuart baptised in New Deer 11 Dec 1783 to William Stuart & Isobel Heaton. This is closer to the DoB claimed by Mary in the 1851 Census, and the spelling STUART is that used in the 1841 census (not conclusive, I know!)
I wouldn't rely at all on the spelling of names - that's very much a modern construct - in the Aberdour parish register that records Mary Stewart/Stuart's death, her name is spelt 'Stewart'. Unfortunately, the register doesn't record her age at death, only the place of death, so it doesn't really help with identifying which Mary Stewart/Stuart we might be dealing with ::)
Ruth
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From SP - the spelling of the surname may have meant it didn't come up, unless you'd selected Name Variants :)
Campbel Alexander, Parents: James Campbel/Jannet Cullen, 18/10/1772, Aberdour, Aberdeenshire 169/10 261
D'oh! Schoolboy error! ::)