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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Warwickshire => Topic started by: Spiral on Sunday 25 November 18 10:15 GMT (UK)
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Hi, I am looking for John Henry Castle born 1856, his wife Ruth Castle born 1876 and their children Alice born 1894, John Henry born 1895 and Ellen (or Helen) born 1904.
In the 1901 census they are living at 85 Mosley Road Birmingham and recorded as husband and wife but I cannot find a marriage for them until 1903. I think that John Henry was married to a Sarah Jane Horton in 1876 but have not identified her death and it seems that Ruth was possibly married to a Stephen Nelson in 1893 so it could be that Alice is Stephen's child. Baby Ruth, mentioned in this census, died later the same year. Mother Ruth is proving very hard to find prior to this census too and I cannot identify her birthplace as given.
John describes himself as variously a tin trader, a china dealer and a general dealer. They seem to move around a great deal (as did all the Castle family going by the variety of birth places listed for the children in the census). They were living in Oxford in 1895 when their son John Henry junior was born and baptised.
I have a possible death of John Henry in 1922 but cannot find any further mention of Ruth after the baptism of Helen (or Ellen) Castle at Holy Trinity Church Bordsley on the 30th Nov 1904. They are then living in Watery Lane, Birmingham.
I have found their son John Henry living as a lodger aged 14in Leopold St. Birmingham in the 1911 census and identified Ellen Castle in a 1926 marriage in Birkdale Lancashire (I know it is her as family history gave her married name and that her husband ran a cafe) and she reports her father as deceased. However I cannot find anyone else
There is a possibility that they were a canal family as I know that their niece married into the Goldingay family who were watermen and John Henry junior married the widow of another of the Goldingays.
Has anyone any suggestions as to where I could look next to find out what happened to them and what Ruth’s background may be?
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Ruth Castle born 1876. Was this her maiden name?
and you say that you cannot identify her birthplace "as given" yet don't actually say what IS given.
1901 census here? https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSZB-VPH
1901 birth reg of the infant in 1901?
CASTLE, RUTH BARRITT 1900 D Quarter in ASTON Volume 06D Page 279
CASTLE, MARY ANN BARRITT 1902 S Quarter in ASTON Volume 06D Page 309
CASTLE, ELLEN BARRITT 1904 D Quarter in ASTON Volume 06D Page 271
CASTLE, HENRY BARRITT 1907 D Quarter in ASTON Volume 06D Page 227
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Thank you that is great! I thought that her maiden name may have been Barritt but that is only if she was married to Stephen Nelson so those birth details for Ruth and Ellen confirm it.
In the 1901 census she gives her birth place as Staffordshire Wood Villaye or Village
I can find a Ruth Barritt of the right age born in Measham, Leicestershire but living in Staffordshire in the 1881 census. But then nothing in the 1891 census. I have the 1901 census details but again nothing in 1911.
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Please provide your timeline.
eg when these marriage(s) took place and where, what names appear on the certificates?
and if you do have a census , it doesn't help us to know which record you are looking at unless you (as I did) give a link or easy reference.
what trace is there of Mary ann 1902 and henry 1907?
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CASTLE, GEORGE CHARLES HORTON 1879 S Quarter in HEADINGTON Volume 03A Page 668
CASTLE, CHARLES JAMES HORTON 1881 M Quarter in HEADINGTON Volume 03A Page 740
CASTLE, ERNEST HARRY HORTON 1883 S Quarter in HEADINGTON Volume 03A Page 720
Can't see any further births from a Castle-Horton marriage.
Did you trace this family unit in 1881 & 1891?
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You seem to be quiet.
is this the 1893 marriage @ St John the Baptist, Leamington (Stephen Nelson- Ruth Barritt)?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QGDL-XYJX
and the 1881 census? (with "correct" father's name)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27X-TSH2
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Sorry - Just had to deal with other matters :-\
I will have to work on how to provide links as I am new to this.
Yes those are the records I have found.
Re Castle /Horton
1881 John and Sarah are living with his brother Edward and have no children recorded
1891 census John Henry is still married to Sarah J but no children recorded.
I have the census details via Ancestry and am trying to confirm the details before purchasing any certificates (given their cost).
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You can purchase a pdf of births & deaths at a cheaper rate by using this link rather than ordering through ancestry or some other site.
www.gro.gov.uk
Pheno
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Candidate for Ruth in 1891 Aston. (15-y-old servant)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WLRQ-G3Z
& a likely birth registration.
BARRITT, RUTH RUTTER 1876 J Quarter in ASHBY-DE-LA-ZOUCH Volume 07A Page 94
BARRETT, ANNE MARIA RUTTER 1877 D Quarter in ASHBY DE LA ZOUCH Volume 07A Page 103
BARRITT, JOSEPH RUTTER 1881 J Quarter in BURTON UPON TRENT Volume 06B Page 422
1875 marriage at Measham. Eli Barritt & Ann Rutter
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QP4W-FQCM
Pauline
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I suspect the Ruth possibly said she was born in Woodville to the enumerator,which is 4 miles from Measham and the place where her birth had to be registered.Woodville is 6 miles from Horningglow.
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Thanks for all the help. Woodville - for Wood Villaye - yes that makes sense! It supports her parents being Eli Barritt and Ann Rutter and the confusion over county.
Got quite a bit to work on now.
The birth of Henry Castle in 1907 has caught me by suprise. The BMD records I have been using don't give the mother's maiden name before 1911 and I had no idea of another child. I am assuming that John Henry (1895) is Ruth's child due to the baptism record. (Oxfordshire Family History Society; Oxford, Oxfordshire, England; Anglican Parish Registers; Reference Number: PAR217/1/R2/8)
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From GRO index. www.gro.gov.uk & freebmd
CASTLE, JOHN HENRY BARRITT 1896 D Quarter in OXFORD Volume 03A Page 880
CASTLE, GEORGE EDWARD BARRITT 1898 J Quarter in ASTON Volume 06D Page 215
Deaths Sep 1898 Castle George Edward 0 Aston 6d 155
Can't find anything likely for Alice (b 1894-ish)
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CASTLE, GEORGE CHARLES HORTON 1879 S Quarter in HEADINGTON Volume 03A Page 668
CASTLE, CHARLES JAMES HORTON 1881 M Quarter in HEADINGTON Volume 03A Page 740
CASTLE, ERNEST HARRY HORTON 1883 S Quarter in HEADINGTON Volume 03A Page 720
I think I can discount these as there was a marriage in 1878 between Charles James Castle and Susan Horton in Headington
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=NHOKhtTxJq5EAHvRUTnQmg&scan=1
But Alice is confounding me. I have looked for Alice Nelson since her age suggests she could be from Ruth's first marriage. I am wondering if she had a complete name change but cannot think where to look now.
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I have found a birth record that is interesting
BARRETT, ALICE MAY NELSON 1895 D Quarter in ASTON Volume 06D Page 206
Do you think that it is possible for the maiden name and married names to get mixed up? Is it worth pursuing this?
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Not worth following sorry
Alice May Barrett 1895 was the daughter of John Barrett and Lavinia (Nelson)
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Oh well :-\ Thanks for saving me a lot of work. I just will have to keep looking.
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I have just received the Death certificates for
CASTLE, JOHN HENRY 65 1922 M Quarter in BIRMINGHAM
and
CASTLE, RUTH 51 1929 J Quarter in KNARESBOROUGH
The first was indeed for my John Henry but the second was not for his wife (it was a long shot as I couldn't see any reason for her to go to Knaresborough).
John Henry's death was reported by his son John Henry and stated that he was a china ware dealer as in the 1901 census. However it does raise some interesting questions:-
Although he died from chronic bronchitis in The Hospital, Dudley Road it gives his address as 291/2 , Vaughton Street. Looking at the electoral register for this address in 1922 and 1920 only his brother George and his wife Ellen are registered there (Son John Henry and wife Rosina are at a nearby address that matches that on the d.c.).
So what is going on?
I am beginning to wonder if the elder John Henry was travelling on the barges and just using brother George as his address when "on land". There are certainly connections with boatmen as son Henry married the widow of one, Edgar Goldingay, and when niece Ellen was married to Frank Goldingay (brother of Edgar) John and Ruth were the witnesses.
Any suggestions as to where I could investigate further would be welcome
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In the 1911 census I have John Castle (Husband's grandfather), aged 14, lodging with Arthur Douce(54) and his wife Emily Mary(53) at 4 Back 68 Leopold Street Birmingham.
Having been unable to locate the rest of John's family in 1911 (see https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=804221.msg6624155#msg6624155) I have tried to see if I could find anything via the people he was lodging with only to hit another brick wall. I cannot find this couple anywhere else even though they say they have been married for 28 years and both claim to have been born in Birmingham. I think Arthur claims to be a Slater working for a builder although slater is crossed out and I cannot decipher the following word.
Can any of you clever RootsChatters help me to work out who these people were, where they came from and what happens to them? It may not help sorting out what happened to John's family but then again...
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Given the amount of info in your previous thread it would be best if this query was merged with it to prevent duplication
Have asked moderator to merge posts
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I thought that since I was looking for completely different people - the Douces - a new thread might be more appropriate. Whilst I hope it might open up some path around the Castle brick wall it is not directly concerned with them.
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It's not a problem but as the aim is to see if there was a possible connection to John - if somebody does find them on earlier censuses then the info about John can be checked instead of having to switch between posts.
As John was b Oxford & they were b Birmingham it's likely they just offered him B/L. What a pity they had no children as we may have been able to find them on earlier censuses using the children's details
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Are you working off a transcription or an image for the 1911 census? (I wonder if the handwriting may be poor)
Philip
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John was living in Birmingham with his parents in 1901 just around the corner at 85 Moseley Street. They may well have just offered board and lodging. I agree that it is a shame they have no children and I cannot even find a likely pair in the 1901 census.
Phil I am working off an image. Which I tried to attach but my brain is clearly not working too well at the moment. I will try again later.
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I have seen the actual 1911 image and it is difficult to establish the correct surname for Arthur & Emily. I have tried tracing them on earlier censuses omitting the surname but had no success
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Putting for consideration these censuses:
1861 Living in Birmingham
Enoch Dance 28
Elizabeth Dance 27 Birmingham
Elizabeth E Dance 6
Arthur Dance 4 born Harborne, Staffs
Enoch Dance 2
Sidney Dance 10/12
Emma Westbury 15
1901 living in Erdington Birmingham
Elizabeth Dance 67 Birmingham Head
Elizabeth E Dance 46
Arthur Dance 44 Birmingham occupation : Mining Engineer-Transvaal
Enoch Dance 42 button makers manager
Sidney Dance 40 widower commercial traveller
Arthur G Dance 3 grandson Ancestry says Pretoria France I say Pretoria Transvaal British Subject
Genever Dauncey 20
Now in 1911 Arthur and Emily have been married no children, and he does not look like a 'mining engineer', but we have not found them elsewhere so just as an outside chance. Also there could be mis-understandings and wrong entries and Sidney could be the worker in the Transvaal and he is the father of Arthur G.
Elizabeth Dance is in censuses etc etc and dies in 1922, probate to spinster daughter Elizabeth.
Added
Arthur G looks to be Arthur Galpin Dance from later ER's, still with grandmother, uncle (?), etc, but cannot see travel for him or others.
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Arthur is a widower in 1901 but 1911 shows married to Emily 28yrs. I think the surname could well be something like Dance but it's a bit of a puzzler