RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cork => Topic started by: Sop_AF on Monday 26 November 18 01:05 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
I’m currently researching family that resided in Cork City in the 1800’s. I have not been able to locate any record of my Great-Gramdmothers birth nor her younger sisters, even having tried to order my great-grandmothers birth cert from Ireland! However, what I was sent was potentially an older sister (born 1876) to my great- grandmother and my family already has a record of a potential older sister than that (born 1870). My question is - why would there not be a record of my great- grandmother and her sisters birth of their older sisters were registered? For reference my great- grandmother was born 1879 and her younger sister 1881 (potentially)
Any help would be much appreciated! Thanks!
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Also, should have mentioned they are Roman Catholic!
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Welcome to RootsChat,
A similar question was asked last week about a death cert, once the names were supplied the cert was found within a few minutes.
It's possible the births weren't registered or it's possible you just haven't found them.
Have you got the children's Baptisims?
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I haven’t found any baptism record for either of them which seems strange as i’m sure they would have been baptised. But there is nothing that has come up on irishgenealogy.ie or FindMyPast so i’m at a bit of a brick wall. My suspicion is that the births wern’t registered :-\
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We can't even try to help until we know who you are looking for, not all parish records are transcribed, have you looked here https://registers.nli.ie/
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Thank you, I’ve just had a look and i’ve found the record for the potential sister born in 1876 in the records of St Patrick’s in the Diocese of Cork and Ross. But no luck when having a look for my great-grandmother in the same doc.
My great- grandmother is Lillian Kenny born 7th Oct 1879. And her sister was Mary born 1881 (according to the 1901 census). Father was John Kenny and I believe the mother was Hannah McAuliffe.
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They lived on Old Youghal Road, Cork
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1901 Census
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/North_East_Ward/Centenary_Row__Old_Youghal_Road_/1101645/
I don't have much time to search now but I'll have a go later if someone hasn't found them in the meantime.
Lilian could possibly be Elizabeth.
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Daniel 1872
393 here
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1872/03228/2183335.pdf
possible 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Inns_Quay/Fontenoy_Street/1279369/
yours 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/North_East_Ward/Centenary_Row__Old_Youghal_Road_/1101645/
Elizabeth 1876
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1876/03038/2113835.pdf
people would not have been very accurate about ages in that time period
marriage St Nicholas ,Cork 1868
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGZZ-S1C
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Number 63 is the Mary birth 1879 Father John mother Hannah McAuliffe
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1879/02924/2071413.pdf
so you need an earlier birth for this couple.
I see dathai has posted some stuff but I'll just post this any way than look at his links
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Elizabeth Ellen 1876 looks good, parents and likely to be called Lillian later in life.
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1911 4 born 3 alive
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Cork_No__3_Urban/Old_Youghal_Road/386602/
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Did they marry in France ?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QGY7-4BJX
John appears to have died 1892 informant Hannah
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1892/06040/4720493.pdf
Hannah 1937
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1937/04772/4280004.pdf
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Wow thank you so much! I hadn’t found the document relating to Daniel Kenny so that might be something good to go on. I found another birth registration for an Anne Kate Kenny born 1870 which states John was in the 81st reg as a private - I haven’t found any documentation confirming that though.
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Number 63 is the Mary birth 1879 Father John mother Hannah McAuliffe
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1879/02924/2071413.pdf
so you need an earlier birth for this couple.
I see dathai has posted some stuff but I'll just post this any way that look at his links
Wow this looks very much like it could be Lilian’s Sister Mary then! Perhaps Lilian’s birthday is incorrect? How ever I have seen it at 1979 in a number of docs which is curious...
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Did they marry in France ?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QGY7-4BJX
John appears to have died 1892 informant Hannah
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1892/06040/4720493.pdf
Hannah 1937
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1937/04772/4280004.pdf
Wow!! I am thoroughly impressed!! That must be the correct Hannah and John! I can’t believe these records never turned up for me.
I had presumed that St Nicholas Church was in Cork when I saw that record, but France?! Interesting! Perhaps he was over there on military duties? But who knows!
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There is evidence on Mary's birth that John was in the Military, on her birth he is listed as a pensioner, there was no old age pension at that time, the military is possibly the only occupation he could have had which would give him a pension.
He's porter on Elizabeth Ellen's birth, an occupation popular with ex-army men. The military training made them suitably for such work.
Also bear in mind the census are from early in the year, March and April so when working out the likely year of birth you usually have to add at least one year as the person may have been born later in the year.
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Perhap's one of them was a Protestant on marriage
I dont seem to be able to find a Catholic St Nicholas Church in Cork
https://www.johngrenham.com/records/church.php?civilparishid=66&civilparish=St%20Nicholas&search_type=full
http://www.corkrecords.com/
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Perhap's one of them was a Protestant on marriage
I dont seem to be able to find a Catholic St Nicholas Church in Cork
https://www.johngrenham.com/records/church.php?civilparishid=66&civilparish=St%20Nicholas&search_type=full
http://www.corkrecords.com/
My dad seems to think that John Kenny was Protestant so that might explain it!
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Ann Kate 1870
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1870/03340/2224299.pdf
That's all four isn't it? So Elizabeth Ellen must be Lillian.
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Looks like the Daniel in Dublin is your man he died 1949 in Centenery Row
and was married
305 here
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1949/04548/4199608.pdf
Mary died 1903
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1903/05642/4587735.pdf
3 buried Rathcooney
https://historicgraves.com/rathcooney/co-rcny-0753/grave
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Ann Kate 1870
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1870/03340/2224299.pdf
That's all four isn't it? So Elizabeth Ellen must be Lillian.
Perhaps so... but if so I don’t understand why she would put down her birth date on other docs as 3 years younger than she actually is 😕 unless the census from 1901 and 1939 were both wrong!
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What date does she put in 1939, could Mary be Lillian?
Sorry they are both in the Census so that doesn't work.
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Daniel married Margaret Keegan in Dublin 1906
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1906/10136/5687719.pdf
daughter Mary Anne born Sutton's Buildings Cork 1908
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1908/01639/1655157.pdf
1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Cork_No__4_Urban__part_of_/Suttons_Buildings/389253/
died 1949 at Centenery Row
305
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1949/04548/4199608.pdf
sister Mary 1903
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1903/05642/4587735.pdf
buried Rathcooney
https://historicgraves.com/rathcooney/co-rcny-0753/grave
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What date does she put in 1939, could Mary be Lillian?
Sorry they are both in the Census so that doesn't work.
It’s recorded as the 7th Oct 1979 in the 1939 census, but I don’t know how credible that census is...
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Daniel married Margaret Keegan in Dublin 1906
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1906/10136/5687719.pdf
daughter Mary Anne born Sutton's Buildings Cork 1908
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1908/01639/1655157.pdf
1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Cork_No__4_Urban__part_of_/Suttons_Buildings/389253/
died 1949 at Centenery Row
305
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1949/04548/4199608.pdf
sister Mary 1903
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1903/05642/4587735.pdf
buried Rathcooney
https://historicgraves.com/rathcooney/co-rcny-0753/grave
Thank you so much Dathai! This is all so very very useful!!!
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Elizabeth 7 Sep 76
Mary 26 Feb 79
Census give them as Elizabeth 78/79 and Mary as 80/81 as does her death.
It's a bit close for Hannah to have two children in 1879 one in Feb and another in Oct.
Either the mother had the girls convinced they were younger than they were, or it's the wrong family births we are finding. The former seems the most likely.
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Elizabeth 7 Sep 76
Mary 26 Feb 79
Census give them as Elizabeth 78/79 and Mary as 80/81 as does her death.
It's a bit close for Hannah to have two children in 1879 one in Feb and another in Oct.
Either the mother had the girls convinced they were younger than they were, or it's the wrong family births we are finding. The former seems the most likely.
Yes I agree with the former too. I don’t think this is the wrong family - it’s too much of a coincidence that they live in the same area. It could have been the case that Lillian didn’t like her birth name, hence why she went by her nickname.
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Is this her marriage 1901
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1901/10313/5754168.pdf
Gives her father as a Cabinet Maker, doesn't say he's dead.
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Yep that’s it! I saw that, however the 1901 Census which places Lillian in Centenary Row earlier in the year (as per the marriage cert) says that Hannah is a widow at this point. I’m sure it’s the right family now - but not sure what the cabinet maker business is about!
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Think we need to make sure McAuliffe is correct.
Cabinet Maker may be a fib.
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Interesting that Daniel is an upholsterer on his death record, matches a bit with cabinet maker.
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Interesting that Daniel is an upholsterer on his death record, matches a bit with cabinet maker.
True! Possibly it was some sort of family business?
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Dathai where have you got Daniel in Dublin, I've looked over the thread twice and can't see it.
sorry found it.
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1911 married to Margaret
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Cork_No__4_Urban__part_of_/Suttons_Buildings/389253/
Daughter Mary's birth
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1908/01639/1655157.pdf
Mother Keegan
Marriage 1906
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1906/10136/5687719.pdf
father John a tradesman, again not listed as dead.
Marriages stop at 1904 for the Pro Cathedral. I was hoping it would have his mother's name.
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I'm now completely sure that this is the correct family. The address on the registration on Hannah Kenny's death and Daniel's death is the same as the address on my great-grandmother & great-grandfather marriage certificate.
It must have been that Lilian is the same person as Elizabeth Ellen. My mum was saying that a member of family on her side had no idea that she was 3 years older then she thought she was, so it's obviously not completely unheard of to not know your actual birth date in this time period. Hannah Kenny couldn't read or write so perhaps she didn't really know the exact dates of her children's births.
I must say a big thank you to you both Sinann and Dathai! You got me so much further in my research in one day than I could ever have done by myself!
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My mum was saying that a member of family on her side had no idea that she was 3 years older then she thought she was, so it's obviously not completely unheard of to not know your actual birth date in this time period. Hannah Kenny couldn't read or write so perhaps she didn't really know the exact dates of her children's births.
My eldest uncle's birthdate was a year out on 1939 Register. He was eldest of 12 children from 3 marriages. He was born at his maternal grandparents' home and registered in that district. His mother died when he was 7 or 8. His father's age was wrong on every census but correct on his tombstone. The family's 1911 census household return contained several pieces of incorrect information, some deliberate. Truth was flexible. The family was Irish. Age of his eldest aunt who remained in Ireland, fluctuated by decades on official records. :)