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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Vendee on Monday 26 November 18 11:51 GMT (UK)
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Hi, first post here. I've been researching our family trees for a few years now. My wife's maternal and paternal trees were fairly easy, going back to 1627 without too much effort. However my own paternal tree was a nightmare. My great grandfather had no birth or death records, only a marriage record and an entry in the 1901 census.
Then last week I had a breakthrough. I had been told that my great grandfather (Daniel Giverin) had spent time in prison. I turned up several penal records which stated the name was "Daniel Gavin or Giverin". This was a big lightbulb moment because on my great grandfathers marriage banns his name is written "Daniel Gavin", then the Gavin is ruled through and Giverin was written above.
Once I started searching for Gavin rather than Giverin, the facts came flooding in and they do tie in with the little information I had before. I've definitely got the right guy. So he was born Gavin in 1878, his fathers surname was Gavin. 1881 and 1891 census he's Gavin. Then in 1897 he gets married under the name Daniel Joseph Giverin. He's Giverin in the 1901 census, then in the 1911 census, he's in Dartmoor prison as Daniel Gavin. I'm 90% sure he died in Lancaster 1935 as Daniel Gavin.
Does anyone know why he might have changed his surname? In the 1911 Dartmoor prison census, he is recorded as "weakminded" in the infirmity column. At the time that was another term for "imbecile". I wonder if that has anything to do with it? The thing is, the surname that he chose to adopt, the one I live with today, isn't a common surname but it is a surname of Irish origin. He didn't just make it up.
I'd love to hear the views of others on this. Thanks.
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Perhaps he couldn't write. If he could write his handwriting may have been hard to read. He may have had a pronounced accent or a speech impediment.
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Welcome to RootsChat! ;D
Remember that the people writing the records (enumerators, vicars, etc) may not have understood an Irish accent?
So, they simply wrote what they thought they heard ;D
Spelling simply wasn't important years ago! :D
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Welcome from me too.
As previously said spelling various spellings were quite common.
My maiden name is spelt several different ways, mainly because people pronounced or heard it differently.
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Thank you very much for your replies. I do understand that in those days, not everyone could read and write and yes, names were probably miss-heard and miss-recorded but in this case, his correct name was entered in the marriage banns (see image) and then altered to the surname I now have. The marriage certificate itself uses the new name. I suppose for his wife, the marriage certificate is the document which changes her surname and there is no going back for her if a mistake is made. She kept the new surname as did her children. Daniel seems to have gone back to his original surname.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4877/46060190421_b6b11d8b0d_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2dbbvUa)
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How did he spell his father's name on the marriage certificate?
She (Jane) could spell her new surname however she wanted if she thought it was incorrect, surely?
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He spelt his fathers name "Giverin". To be honest, 125 years on, I don't think I will ever find out what was going on with the name and why but I'm quite pleased that there is a bit of mystery in my family tree. I'm led to believe that his time in Dartmoor prison was for attempted murder. Given his "weakminded" status while in prison, perhaps he wasn't the sharpest tool in the box. I might have to splash out and get hold of his prison records if possible.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4814/31126550637_1699598bb5_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/PqxH5a)
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There are two prisoners
Daniel Gavin 32 yrs single Labourer b Sheffield
Daniel Gavin 28yrs married Tailor b Salford
A newspaper snippet 1909 mentions the attempted murder of Maggie Gavin by her husband Daniel 27yrs.
There are a couple of other snippets re theft.
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The younger one married Margaret Taylor in 1904 at Harpurhey, Christ Church. So he was the one who committed attempted murder.
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Good finds heywood. :)
A thought .... although in this case Gavin and Giverin are probably variations of the same surname, we sometimes see people using different surnames through their lives and it can be due to their mother remarrying and they use their birth surname on some documents and the surname of their stepfather on others. Do you know if Daniel's father died and his mother remarried?
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The younger one married Margaret Taylor in 1904 at Harpurhey, Christ Church. So he was the one who committed attempted murder.
Could that be Harpurhey prison they got married I wonder . . .
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The younger one married Margaret Taylor in 1904 at Harpurhey, Christ Church. So he was the one who committed attempted murder.
Could that be Harpurhey prison they got married I wonder . . .
??? They got married at Christ Church. I don’t understand... it isn’t the same Daniel though.
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Just in case you have not seen it a crime and punishment record from 1909 names him as Daniel Gavin alias Daniel Giverin and Daniel Nelson. ( So a further alias! ). He seems to have been sent to Parkhurst first. He appears to have been released 17 July 1912, the intended address being the asylum in Lancaster. Record gives pob as Sheffield and occupation as labourer.
A burial record from1935 gives a burial date of 18 Jan 1935 in Lancaster - residence given as The County Mental Hospital.
William
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Oh dear.
Sometimes people altered their name as a result of an event such as crime, desertion from the military, a bigamous marriage etc. There may be a criminal act around the time he married.
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Hi, first post here. I've been researching our family trees for a few years now. My wife's maternal and paternal trees were fairly easy, going back to 1627 without too much effort. However my own paternal tree was a nightmare. My great grandfather had no birth or death records, only a marriage record and an entry in the 1901 census.
Then last week I had a breakthrough. I had been told that my great grandfather (Daniel Giverin) had spent time in prison. I turned up several penal records which stated the name was "Daniel Gavin or Giverin". This was a big lightbulb moment because on my great grandfathers marriage banns his name is written "Daniel Gavin", then the Gavin is ruled through and Giverin was written above.
Once I started searching for Gavin rather than Giverin, the facts came flooding in and they do tie in with the little information I had before. I've definitely got the right guy. So he was born Gavin in 1878, his fathers surname was Gavin. 1881 and 1891 census he's Gavin. Then in 1897 he gets married under the name Daniel Joseph Giverin. He's Giverin in the 1901 census, then in the 1911 census, he's in Dartmoor prison as Daniel Gavin. I'm 90% sure he died in Lancaster 1935 as Daniel Gavin.
Does anyone know why he might have changed his surname? In the 1911 Dartmoor prison census, he is recorded as "weakminded" in the infirmity column. At the time that was another term for "imbecile". I wonder if that has anything to do with it? The thing is, the surname that he chose to adopt, the one I live with today, isn't a common surname but it is a surname of Irish origin. He didn't just make it up.
I'd love to hear the views of others on this. Thanks.
Quite a lot of info there, but not as to where he born and where were the census records were held - Salford as later mentioned is Manchester where a lot of Irish resided - Sheffield is South Yorkshire, so the 2 Daniel's are poles apart and need to be seperated from each other, so we know who is who, you were told your grt grandfather entertained prison, any clue as to why . . .
Maybe a baptism record to explain the Joseph, because if he was a Daniel Joseph by birth, then that would mean his name would also be Daniel Joseph on his any of his records from there on . . .
If the record writer can define the father of the groom as Giverin, then why not his son, maybe as simple as thinking it was Garvin and then as it is only at the wedding his father name would have come up and also written last, on realising his mistake, amended it forthwith . . .
To many Daniel Garvin's'/Giverin's here, spoiling the plot . . . (*-* )
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Daniel Gavin was born in Sheffield in 1878- he is with family there in 1881. In 1891 he is in an industrial school in Chorlton, Manchester. The rest of the family are also in Manchester in 1891.
UK Lunacy Patients Register shows that Daniel was indeed admitted to the Lancaster Asylum in 1912. It looks as though he remained there until his death 14 Jan 1935.
William
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Witnesses to Daniel’s marriage to Jane Southern were John and Annie Watts.
There is a marriage -1894 John Watts and Annie Gaven. Unfortunately it is not online.
Daniel had a Sister Annie. Perhaps it is her.
I can’t see the Watts couple in censuses.
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Think this is John and Annie Watts in 1901.
Tilt St Newton Heath
John Watts 36 Navvy
Ann Watts 26 wife born Sheffield
Daniel Watts son 5 b Salford
Mary Watts daughter 1 b Salford
Annie seems to have died 1904. John Watts subsequently remarried.
William
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There are two prisoners
Daniel Gavin 32 yrs single Labourer b Sheffield
Daniel Gavin 28yrs married Tailor b Salford
A newspaper snippet 1909 mentions the attempted murder of Maggie Gavin by her husband Daniel 27yrs.
There are a couple of other snippets re theft.
1909 - 27 years old at the time of the attempted murder makes this Daniel born approx 1882
1909 - 32 years old makes the other Daniel born approx 1877
Your Daniel, you say was born 1878, so that makes him the 32-year-old
Daniel Gavin who was 21 at the time of marriage in 1897 to Jane Southern was born in 1876
Can we presume the newspaper clippings are not matching the actual event here ????
Could both Daniel's actually be related and that is why you are hearing stories that may relate to the 2 Daniel's as if both were one . . .
The one which had attempted to murder his then-wife, well he was well suited to an asylum . . .
Your Daniel, if unrelated, just why he sent to an asylum after attending prison . . .
Does lunacy run through the family in any way . . .
So who is Daniel Gavin born 1882 and who are his parents and do they relate to Joseph Giverin father to Daniel born 1877 eg: are the 2 Daniels Gavin's cousins . . .
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Witnesses to Daniel’s marriage to Jane Southern were John and Annie Watts.
There is a marriage -1894 John Watts and Annie Gaven. Unfortunately it is not online.
Daniel had a Sister Annie. Perhaps it is her.
I can’t see the Watts couple in censuses.
And if so, we have yet another variation of the surname Gavin . . .
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Just in case you have not seen it a crime and punishment record from 1909 names him as Daniel Gavin alias Daniel Giverin and Daniel Nelson. ( So a further alias! ). He seems to have been sent to Parkhurst first. He appears to have been released 17 July 1912, the intended address being the asylum in Lancaster. Record gives pob as Sheffield and occupation as labourer.
A burial record from1935 gives a burial date of 18 Jan 1935 in Lancaster - residence given as The County Mental Hospital.
William
Making his death age around 58 - still a young chap by all accounts - I wonder what the cause of death was . . .
Name: Daniel Gavin
Death Age: 55
Birth Date: abt 1880
Registration Date: Mar 1935
Registration district: Lancaster
Inferred County: Lancashire
On death without a correct birthdate - there is far too much scope here to say which one it is - is this Daniel born 1879 by census or Daniel Garvin born 1882 - a marriage aged 21 in 1897 making the birth 1876 - the dates are not half bobbin' around a bit here . . .
You have given the burial date of the 18th of Jan 1935 - burial, not death - yet it has not been registered until Mar 1935 - it is quite normal for asylums to collect the death dates and register them as a whole, possible at the end of the month - but this is 3 months here . . .
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I looked at this earlier and now see that others ahve picked up the two Daniel Gavin's and if I remember rightly they both had Irish fathers.
Perhaps the family needs to be traced back into Ireland to see if the Giverin name originates there.
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'You have given the burial date of the 18th of Jan 1935 - burial, not death - yet it has not been registered until Mar 1935 - it is quite normal for asylums to collect the death dates and register them as a whole, possible at the end of the month - but this is 3 months here . . .'
Registered March quarter 1935, so died from January to March...
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Wow, I posted a reply last night and had an early night. I was so surprised to see so many incredibly helpful replies this morning. I would like to state that although I've been researching my family tree for a couple of years, I'm essentially a beginner. Also in my original post, because I was asking about the surname change, I didn't disclose everything I knew about Daniel Gavin/Giverin.
Heywood, thanks for the prisoner info. I think you are right, the older Daniel Gavin is my relative. The person who told me that my relative was in prison for attempted murder obviously got confused with the younger guy. Doh! You are spot on about John and Annie Watts as the wedding witnesses. They are indeed Daniel's sister and brother in law. Why didn't I twig that? I was only researching those two a couple of days ago.
Ruskie, I don't know when Daniel's parents (Joseph & Mary Ann) died. I think Mary Ann may have died first because in the 1901 census I have a Joseph Gavin aged 62 living alone in Salford. I can't find out what happened to Mary Ann Gavin neé Smith.
Millmoor, thanks for that. I've been in contact with an 82 year old distant relative that I've never met who lives in Canada . He has also been researching the family tree. He is one generation older than me so Daniel was his grandfather. He told me that his own father had spoke about Daniel. He said that Daniels wife's family had arranged to have him institutionalised and that he had ended up in Lancaster. He said he might have had a drink problem but all the evidence now seems to point to some mental illness or other affliction. I had already noted that Daniel had attended St Josephs industrial school aged 12. I'm not sure why he would have been sent there. Perhaps, to use today's terminology, he had special needs.
Indiana, you asked if lunacy runs in the family? My wife is beginning to think so ;D
Once again, thanks to *everyone* who has replied. I only asked why the surname had changed but I received so much new and valuable information about my family tree and I'm very grateful.
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I have 13 variations of one surname, with 2 different starting letters (H and I), and no idea what the ‘real’ one is ::)
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I have 13 variations of one surname, with 2 different starting letters (H and I), and no idea what the ‘real’ one is ::)
In the case of Daniel, I would incline to a change because of ‘circumstances’. There may be criminal or newspaper records re Gavin/Giverin/Nelson which Millmoor refers to.
As with variations, my married and maiden names both have various spelling differences according to which branch of the family believes they are right ;)
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Indeed, sorry Heywood, and of course the Nelson one is hardly a variation.
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Yes, hopefully there is an explanation somewhere re Nelson - in a criminal report :-\
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For what it is worth I do not think that there is a kinship connection between the 2 Daniels.
Daniel born Sheffield - parents Joseph Gavin and Mary Ann Smith was baptised , as were his siblings, as a Roman Catholic. There is a possible birth for Joseph in Roscommon .( There is a West Yorkshire prison record from 1885 for a Joseph Gavin of Sheffield b Roscommon age 47 who was given 7 days for not sending a child to school).
Daniel born Salford -parents Alexander Gavin and Rosetta McKeowan were from co. Down, N Ireland and were protestants. They married in Glasgow and their eldest son Alexander was born there. ( Criminal records show that this Daniel had aliases as well - he was known as Daniel William and William Daniel!).
I wonder, Vendee, if it might be worth contacting Lancashire Archives as it would appear that the records for Lancaster Asylum are housed there.
William
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I agree with most of your findings Millmoor but the other Daniel gives his father as James Gavin, deceased ,Dyer. :-\
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Millmoor, thanks. I was aware of the Roscommon connection. I have Josephs baptism record from 1839 in Roscommon. I had also spotted Joseph's seven day prison term for failing to send his child to school. I'm sure that must have been Daniel. You mentioned in an earlier post that Daniel had been in Parkhurst at one point. I wasn't aware of that..... where can I find that information?
I did contact Lancashire records office earlier this year. The asylum was known as Lancaster Moor Hospital. Records are available for inspection but only in person. As I live in Norfolk, its a bit of a trek but maybe sometime in the future. Thanks again.
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I see what you mean, Heywood! If he is the Daniel below perhaps he did not know much about his father.
LookIing at the Groindex the only birth for a Daniel Gavin in 1883 + or -2 is in Chorlton - mmn McKeowan.
Possible death for Rosetta Gavin in Rochdale RD 1886. There are also workhouse registers showing a Daniel Gavin being admitted to the workhouse in 1888 age 4, with in two cases the word deserted. He is there with siblings Rosetta, Martha and Alexander. There are records for Alexander in Canada incl.marriage in Ontario. The Canada archives records for Home Chidren show that Martha and Rosetta (and possibly Alexander) were emigrated to Canada from the Chorlton workhouse. No sign of Daniel.
Can you see either Daniel in 1901?
William
Added was just about to post when I saw your post,Vendee. Have a look at the criminal records on FindMyPast - if you enter the name Daniel Gavin records for both Daniels come up. It is the one for 1909 which adds the alias Nelson which says Parkhurst.
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but in this case, his correct name was entered in the marriage banns (see image) and then altered to the surname I now have. The marriage certificate itself uses the new name.
Were these banns from same church as the wedding?
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Millmoor, thanks. I was aware of the Roscommon connection. I have Josephs baptism record from 1839 in Roscommon.
I did contact Lancashire records office earlier this year. The asylum was known as Lancaster Moor Hospital. Records are available for inspection but only in person. As I live in Norfolk, its a bit of a trek but maybe sometime in the future. Thanks again.
The 1839 Roscommon baptism may not be the correct Joseph. A lot of parishes don't have registers from that time - his baptism record may not have survived. My grandmother had Gavin connections in a Mayo parish with registers from 1820s but sorting them out is not easy and sometimes impossible.
If you are unable to travel to Lancashire Archives, you can ask for a look-up. There's a thread dedicated to it. Go to Lancashire sub-board and look at Resources, Links and Offers sections.
Happy Lancashire Day (today) :)
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Maiden Stone, to answer your earlier question, Daniel's marriage banns and wedding were both at the same church. You may be right about the Roscommon Joseph not being the correct one. I initially assumed that the record referred to Roscommon town, in which case I think it would be my Joseph but on checking again, its actually Roscommon county and that the Joseph I'm looking at was actually baptised in the town of Boyle, Roscommon county. It may still be him but obviously I can't be sure at the moment.
Thanks for the advice about asking for help on the Lancashire sub boards.
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Regarding Industrial schools I don't think they were designed with criminal children in mind more for orphans or children whose parents couldn't care for them .for boys often focus was on a trade such as tailor or carpentry .girls learnt dressmaking etc .Was the Daniel who'd been deserted as a child the 1 who later had mental health diagnosis ?
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Daniel's mental health may have been made worse by his time in prison. Enforced silence, solitary confinement and hard labour were features of prison regime introduced in 19th century.
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Maiden Stone, to answer your earlier question, Daniel's marriage banns and wedding were both at the same church.
I'd wondered if it was a case of priests at 2 churches spelling/hearing/interpreting the name differently. Another Irish surname I researched had a different version in each parish in Lancashire.
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Hi Brigidmac, I agree that St Josephs Industrial School, which was a catholic institution, was a charitable rather than a reform school. Yes the Daniel who went to St Josephs was the one who went on to prison and then the Lancaster asylum.
Ironically, Daniels two oldest children (one of them my grandfather) ended up in a Lancashire Poor Law school when their father went to prison. When I see what my immediate ancestors went through, its sometimes surprising to actually be here ;)
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Signatures of bridegroom, bride and witnesses on marriage certificate in reply #6 seem to me to be all written by the same person. Is this a copy from GRO? Are there any documents which Daniel definitely signed himself or on which he made his mark?
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Hi Maiden Stone, I downloaded the certificate via the Ancestry uk website. The credit is given to Manchester City Council.
I have thought about the handwriting before and I admit that I don't know the first thing about handwriting but I think I have to disagree with you. To my eye, the two witness signatures look to have been done by the same person but not the bride and groom. I think that Daniels signature looks rather elegant, especially for a "labourer". Look at the final "n" in Giverin and compare it with the final n Southern below. There is much more of a flourish in Daniels writing, assuming that it is his writing.
Perhaps he learned to write when he was at the catholic industrial school? Perhaps someone signed for him. Did this happen back then? I've been told by an older relative that Daniel used to write to his sons from Lancaster asylum.
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One name in my family was a nightmare to research when I did it about 10 years or so ago and still fairly new to it.
(Eliza and Thomas) Mcrea can be spelled in many ways (mcrea, McRae, Macrea etc).
The family moved from Scotland to London, then Southampton.
On the 1841 census it was spelled how I'd imagine someone in southern England would hear it pronounced by a Scot, McCree.
Their son died 1842 and his name wrongly transcribed on the index as McCrab. And when Eliza died, 60 years after her husband, his name was unknown by the person registering her death and had her as the wife of George.
Another line changed there name from Hulme to Holmes, Luke Hulme had a very unhappy and violent marriage. He divorced, met someone else, married again and had another family, although the 3 children are registered as Hulme, they were baptised as Holmes and used that name from then on. My line from him and his first family still use Hulme.
Apart from those, I've found many records mis transcibed
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Here are 2 newspaper articles reporting a theft by Daniel Gavin in 1887 which resulted in him being sent to an Industrial School.
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And here's a report of the 1909 court case
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Very good finds, Jool! (I did not think to look at papers outwith Lancashire :-\).
Criminal records for Jessie Broadbent show that she had aliases too - surnames Mitchell and Meredith and first name Cissie.
There also appears to be a W Yorks. Criminal Record for William Gavin It states he was sent to Market Weighton reformatory 25 Nov 1887( he is recorded there in 1891) after 14 days in Wakefield Prison. His pob is given as Sheffield.
I wonder if William Gavin is the William Smith showing in Sheffield in 1881 with the Gavins as age 8 born Suffolk? In 1901 I think Daniel Gavin's sister, Mary Theresa is recorded as Theresa Gavin, a boarder in the home of William Smith 27, carter born Sheffield. Coincidence?
William
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Amazing finds Joel
Name Jessie Broadbent is ringing some bells for me ...must go and check
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Not sure if you already have this from the UK Lunacy Admission Registers:
Gavin Danl Date of admission 17 Jul 1912 CT (?Criminal Transfer) 31 Oct 12 Pauper( added in red) Asylum Lancs Died 14th Jan 1935
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I wonder if William Gavin is the William Smith showing in Sheffield in 1881 with the Gavins as age 8 born Suffolk? In 1901 I think Daniel Gavin's sister, Mary Theresa is recorded as Theresa Gavin, a boarder in the home of William Smith 27, carter born Sheffield. Coincidence?
William
Hi Millmoor, yes I too thought that William Gavin was likely to be the William Smith in the 1881. Possibly the illegitimate son of Mary Ann Gavin (nee Smith), William and Mary Ann are both noted as born in Suffolk. I hadn't spotted the 1901 for Theresa Gavin and William Smith, it could well be the same William.
William Gavin's criminal record is a good find too!
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I wonder if William Gavin is the William Smith showing in Sheffield in 1881 with the Gavins as age 8 born Suffolk? In 1901 I think Daniel Gavin's sister, Mary Theresa is recorded as Theresa Gavin, a boarder in the home of William Smith 27, carter born Sheffield. Coincidence?
William
Hi Millmoor, yes I too thought that William Gavin was likely to be the William Smith in the 1881. Possibly the illegitimate son of Mary Ann Gavin (nee Smith), William and Mary Ann are both noted as born in Suffolk. I hadn't spotted the 1901 for Theresa Gavin and William Smith, it could well be the same William.
William Gavin's criminal record is a good find too!
Apologies, I've been away from my computer for a couple of days. Many thanks to Millmoor, Janan and Jool for the information, particularly the newspaper cuttings.
The William Gavin thing is interesting. I had noticed that William Smith aged 8 had appeared in the Gavin household in the 1881 census. I knew that there must be a connection to Daniel's mother, Mary Ann Smith because William was born in Kedington, 4 miles from the Suffolk village where she was born. I thought that he may have been a nephew or other family member but now you mention it, an illegitimate son seems to be the obvious answer. That might explain why she left home and moved to Sheffield.
I still can't find any marriage record for Mary Ann Smith to Joseph Gavin, neither can I find a death record for her.
However, my original question has been answered. My great grandfather had an extensive criminal past and he used several aliases. He married under one of those aliases and that's how I got my surname. I suppose that finding someone famous in your family tree would be great but to have some dodgy relatives is equally interesting. Giverin is quite an unusual surname so for Daniel to use it as an alias, one has to assume that he must have known someone else with that name. We will never know who it was but I'm happy with that :) Thanks again to everyone for their help.