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General => Technical Help => Topic started by: Mart 'n' Al on Monday 26 November 18 12:29 GMT (UK)
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I bought a television in September 2015. A few days ago it developed a fault, stripes across the screen. I have performed a factory rest and the problem is still there. The Sale of Goods Act 1979 says that an item should be reliable "...in the UK, for many years our rights have actually extended to a much longer period, sometimes up to six years. " Please see this link for full details.
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-1690541/Currys-fixed-broken-TV-after-26-months.html
Have you had any experience of this? I contacted Amazon earlier, and they are referring it to a higher authority.
Martin
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This is the sticking point in regard to the 6 year warranty period ;
It is up to the consumer to prove that the product was defective when they bought it, and this is pretty much impossible to do]
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Youngtug, thank you, I will look into that. I think with social media, i will be able to find numerous other instances of this. I will report back with any progress. I am extremely polite when complaining and VERY tenacious.
Martin
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where did you get it martin?
I wrote to Tesco Customer Services a few years back. Father had bought TV / DVD player and it failed 3 months out of 2 year warranty.
EU rules say product must function for a reasonable period i.e. a TV should be significantly more durable than 12months.
Anyway he originally bought it for £135 Tesco refunded £90 after 2 years 3 months and he bought a replacement for £95
I think most high street stores have an "out of Warranty" claims procedure
deebel
deebel
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We had a TV just over 3 yrs old when there was a small explosion as it was switched on. Took it back to ASDA and got all our money back. ;D No argument, believe Which have written about this type of thing, think TVs should last at least 5 yrs.
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A television I bought several years go developed a fault, admittedly not so far not of warranty as yours. I e mailed the manufacturer, I know really that the supplier is liable but I thought I would go to the top as it were. I received an e mail from them telling me to contact a local dealer/repairer, ask them to examine the set and pass any repair bill on to them. I would have to pay any transport costs.
The repair cost more than the set when I bought it but it was on offer on line.
In my e mail to the makers I pointed out that it was not an unreasonable expectation on my behalf that the set should last longer than it had. This belief is, as I understand it, an accepted principle.
The set is till going strong. At least it was last night.
:)
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We had a 2009 purchased TV fully refunded in 2013, after some long, drawn out communications and lots of quoting of standards and expectations. We did have to pay £20 for an independent shop to give their opinion on the cause of the problem, but this too was refunded by the company asking for it.
Be confident in your dealings with the company, and do not accept their initial response if you feel it is unfair. The broken-record technique of re-stating the issue and your aims each time they seem to be ignoring them, can work to good effect too. Plus, always be polite in your dealings, respect and acknowledge their comments, but clearly state why (if it is the case), you disagree with them and provide evidence to back up your reason/s.
Edit:
Just noticed your earlier comment:
. I am extremely polite when complaining and VERY tenacious.
You could be my twin! ;D
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We had a 2009 purchased TV fully refunded in 2013, after some long, drawn out communications and lots of quoting of standards and expectations. We did have to pay £20 for an independent shop to give their opinion on the cause of the problem, but this too was refunded by the company asking for it.
Be confident in your dealings with the company, and do not accept their initial response if you feel it is unfair. The broken-record technique of re-stating the issue and your aims each time they seem to be ignoring them, can work to good effect too. Plus, always be polite in your dealings, respect and acknowledge their comments, but clearly state why (if it is the case), you disagree with them and provide evidence to back up your reason/s.
You don't say how long you had the TV before it failed. Under the sale of Goods Act if it failed within 6 months it is assumed that it was faulty when you bought it and you can claim a full refund (unless it failed due to misuse). Anything after this time and up to 6 years you can claim your money back minus a reduction due to your useage, so if the TV was proved faulty and unrepairable after 3 years your would get 50% back, not the full price you paid for it.
If you managed a full refund for the TV and it was first reported faulty after 6 months I would say you were very fortunate (as well as being extremely curteous; firm and polite always better than ranting and raving)
Simon
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I have a 7-year-old Hotpoint double oven. I do not buy extended warranties because most of the time you are spending more on the insurance than you would on a repair. My grill switch went wrong and the bill for repair was 90 pounds, still cheaper than the extended warranty would have been over the period. However, I could not pay the 90 pounds in one fell swoop. I had to buy 6 months of extended warranty to pay for it, necessitating the bother of setting up direct debits etc. Needless to say, once the 6 months was up I discontinued the DD. Since then, I have had numerous letters offering extended warranty... ???
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Thank you for all this information. After having been given the runaround by the supplier's usual complaints service I found a UK London number for the company. I phoned them, and had a very long chat with a very nice gentleman, and I asked where abouts in London he was. He told me that he was in Jamaica. I explained the whole story once again, and he gave me a direct link to the director of Customer Services.
I spent the last day or so carefully tuning a firm, accurate and polite letter which I have sent as an attachment to an email. I am optimistic as I know I am in the right, and I have asked for a refund of 75%, as I've had the television for 3 years, and I think at least 12 years is a reasonable life expectancy for a television. I will keep you updated.
I also spoke to the manufacturer of the television, and their third party maintenance company. They both used phrases such as spontaneous failure and catastrophic failure when I described the symptoms. They both indicated that it was an unreasonable fault, and also that it would be beyond economic repair. I included this information in my email to the supplier.
Martin
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I've had my TV 6 years but it's not used often. Will it be silently wearing out merely sitting idle?
Previous sets lasted 20 years. They were expensive. There was nothing wrong with one except it was digitally incompatible.
Washing machine is aged 4. Dispenser drawer has cracked.
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Thank you for all this information. After having been given the runaround by the supplier's usual complaints service I found a UK London number for the company. I phoned them, and had a very long chat with a very nice gentleman, and I asked where abouts in London he was. He told me that he was in Jamaica. I explained the whole story once again, and he gave me a direct link to the director of Customer Services.
I spent the last day or so carefully tuning a firm, accurate and polite letter which I have sent as an attachment to an email. I am optimistic as I know I am in the right, and I have asked for a refund of 75%, as I've had the television for 3 years, and I think at least 12 years is a reasonable life expectancy for a television. I will keep you updated.
I also spoke to the manufacturer of the television, and their third party maintenance company. They both used phrases such as spontaneous failure and catastrophic failure when I described the symptoms. They both indicated that it was an unreasonable fault, and also that it would be beyond economic repair. I included this information in my email to the supplier.
Martin
Martin,
It will be interesting to hear how this ends up. It's not clear if you have an engineer's report stating that it is unrepairable and was an inherent fault as I'm pretty sure that whoever you bought the TV from will require this evidence and not just the result of a discussion with the manufacturer over the phone.
With the above you should get your refund although, however much you or I (or anyone) think a TV should last 12 years I think it's likely you will only get just under 50% due to the 6 years warranty rights set out under the sales of goods act.
Simon
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Simon, I will update this. That is unless they make me agree to a non disclosure agreement in return for replacing it. If you don't hear from me again you'll know I got a replacement.
Martin
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My progress so far updated.
I found an 'unofficial' Amazon number on a website listing the email addresses of company executives. On calling that number I was given the email address of the Director of Customer Services. I wrote a very formal and polite letter explaining everything. It has now been passed back to the sort of staff who send standard replies to complaints.
I have even had one reply saying that "...39 months is longer than the AVERAGE expected life of a Sony TV !! Can you believe that? AVERAGE suggests that they are saying that some fail before that.
I am not the sort of man who tries to complain unfairly. I truly believe that if a TV fails so soon, then it was of poor quality. The TV hasn't been moved since the day it arrived (not even for hoovering under the stand...!). We live alone, and it has not been knocked or damaged. They have asked for a independent assessment of the TV, which I would have to pay for, on top of the cost of getting the TV to such a company. How far should I be expected to go?
I have even tried a 3rd-party dispute resolution service, RESOLVER.CO.UK, but Amazon refuse to deal with them. I do wish I wasn't the sort who complains by the appropriate channels. Twitter or Facebook would probably draw this to the attention of many people, but I don't use them as they are a bit undiginfied.
I am very tenacious when I believe I have been wronged. I also believe that companies try to build too many hurdles to stop people complaining.
Martin
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Is it an LED tv?
https://www.quora.com/what-is-the-expected-life-span-of-an-LED-TV
There's a related question What is the general life of a Sony LED TV?
The information is recent.
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maidenstone, your link didn't work, but it prompted me to find this.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=What+is+the+general+life+of+a+Sony+LED+TV%3F&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
80000 to 100000 hours is what is reasonable. In that case, we've had the television 3 years, call it 1000 days, let's estimate on the very high side that we watch it for 4 hours a day, that's 4000 hours. Thank you this will be a vital part of my argument with Amazon.
I'm beginning to think that my experiences, especially in view of the obstacles that Amazon are putting in front of me, this would be a very good subject for an investigative journalist. I'm beginning to think that it would be in the best interests of Sony if they had done more when I contacted them initially. I think I will try them again on Monday.
Martin
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Oo Mart, you gave me quite a shock!
I saw the word REVOLVER, and thought but he said he was reasonable and polite, !
On re reading it I saw it was RESOLVE,phew.
I am going a bit funny I think,I mean peculiar not ha ha .
Viktoria
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I'm more knowledgeable, although no clearer than I was 24 hours ago after googling all those articles. There are so many factors which can influence lifespan: brightness and contrast settings; whether it's wall-mounted or free-standing; temperature; humidity; dust; sunlight; electrical surges; number of hours switched on. Leaving a tv on all day as background noise shortens its' life; on the other hand it should be switched on every day for at least half-an-hour. In answer to the question I asked on 6th December: mine could well be wearing out doing nothing; it's near a window - morning sun; days pass without the set being used.
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Yes Maiden Stone however everything you describe is a normal part of the domestic environment for which a TV is designed. It should be designed sufficiently robustly to cope with all of the above conditions and perform satisfactorily as expected for many years. If it fails after 7 or 8 years then maybe it is time to bite the bullet but catastrophic failure at 25 months is unacceptable in my view.
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They have asked for a independent assessment of the TV, which I would have to pay for, on top of the cost of getting the TV to such a company. How far should I be expected to go?
Martin
Under the Sales of Goods Act (which your TV falls as it was bought before 1st October 2015) it is up to you to prove that the TV is faulty if it failed after 6 months. The seller can (and almost always will) ask you to provide them with an independent report. A can't see you will get anywhere without this.
Simon
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I'm sure Amazon get many people, trying it on, but I was telling my 78 year old mother-in-law, who suffers from Dementia, in a care home, that Amazon have said the television has lasted longer than it's expected life. She couldn't believe what they were saying. I am actually going to telephone Sony today and tell them what Amazon have said on two separate occasions.
Locksmith, thank you for your advice, which is probably correct but if you saw the television you would agree that it is not going to be viable to repair it.
Martin
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This might be my final update. Yesterday Amazon offered me a £55 credit voucher to cover a £300 television failing after 3 years. I've declined the offer, and this morning I received a second copy of it confirming that they would not go any higher.
I will be sending them an email later, which I have already drafted but I will wait a few hours to calm down before sending it.
I have told them I will be starting a small claim for two-thirds of the cost of the television, at 5 p.m. on Monday unless they are prepared to offer me two thirds compensation. It's affecting my health and well-being and I'm just so frustrated. I've had communication from 11 different people over the last fortnight and the reply this morning inferred that they haven't looked any further than my first email to them two weeks ago. I even asked them if they want me to get an independent engineer's report on the television as was suggested earlier, and they didn't even acknowledge that question or reply. I am very tenacious when I feel as though I have been unjustly treated, but I really can't take it any longer. I risk losing the £55 voucher and it will cost me £28 for the small claim but this example of Amazon customer service has just driven me to distraction.
Martin
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The small claim court is definitely the way to go, so well done and the law is on your side on this one (although the likelyhood would be only 50% of the bought value). You would still need back up your claim by way of an engineers report I think. Hopefully the wording in your email reminded them of your rights under UK consumer law and they may then settle befor you apply to the small claims court.
I have shown an interest here as I had a similar situation happen to me a few years ago when my TV failed after 34 months. Fortunately I had a (free) 5 year parts and labour warranty so didn't have to pay for the expert's report. I received back 34/72nds of the price, the retailer quoting the relevant consumer law when I asked for more.
Simon
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Simon, locksmith, thank you for your continued interest. I am definitely going ahead with the small claim as the whole episode has been absurd. I went into a local TV and computer repair shop and asked them if they would examine the television and give me a statement suitable. The man in the shop actually laughed that I was asking for a statement saying that a 3 year old television that's failed could have failed for any reason other than faulty. If Amazon require it I will go ahead with it.
I would feel disgusted with myself if I didn't go ahead and their offer of £55 which is little more than 1/6 of the value of the television is silly. By personal email I will send you a copy of my final correspondence with Amazon before going ahead this afternoon. I will wait until Monday afternoon before starting the small claim, but the stress has just got to the stage where I am grumpy about anything, can't sleep and can't think about anything else. It's actually the procrastination about starting the small claim which is having the most detrimental effect on my well-being. It will be a relief when I have entered my card number and pressed enter. The point of no return.
Martin
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This is of no real help to you Mart n Al, but we have bought our TVs from John Lewis as you get a free 5 year warranty with them, assuming they stock the make and model you want. Just an idea for a future purchase. They also offer better length free warranties on other electrical products.
I don't work for John Lewis or have any financial interests in them, just a very satisfied long term customer .
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Candleflame, I usually use John Lewis, but I went for Amazon as they had immediate stock and delivery, and I never really thought I'd need a 5-year guarantee. TVs don't go wrong, do they...?
Martin
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Amazon directly employ a large legal department, so it will give these guys something to do to pick holes in any of your arguments.
They have made you an offer, so not only do you have to win, but the court must agree that this offer is not enough.
Otherwise you will have to pay their costs.
Much as I admire your tenacity common sense tells me the risk is not worth taking, Amazon’s legal eagles have used their knowledge and experience to pitch their offer in just the right gray area
I assume the offer was made without an admission of liability
Mike
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Just a couple of comments for what it is worth, feel free to ignore if you like.
The Sale of Goods Act has been replaced by The Consumer Rights Act 2015 so if you intend on going down the legal route, make you know which current act you are referencing. Edit: OK, I see you bought the TV before the Consumer Rights Act came into force.
"12 years is a reasonable life expectancy for a television" - maybe in the CRT days but in the current throw-away society today, you'd be very lucky to get that. However having said that, an item should last a reasonable amount of time after purchase and to find it failing after just three years is not acceptable. I would say getting six years out of an LCD/LED TV these days is quite acceptable although they should go on for longer than that.
I think the offer of £55 is not on though. If it was me I'd ask for about £140 and see where they go from there - that's just under half the value of the TV when new and you have had around "half" of its life out of it. Plus they're just offering a credit voucher meaning you still need to spend any refund with them - I'd prefer a refund to source so you can go spend it where you like.
If you want the moral victory and go down the small claims court route, then go ahead but be prepared that you might not get the outcome you want and if it begins to draw out, is it all worth the effort for just £55?
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Recent correspondence with Amazon. Their latest response far below, and my reply here.
Dear Amazon
I will start the Small Claims Procedure as previously advised at 5pm on Monday.
I have already explained that an LED screen is expected to be good for in excess of 50,000 hours and that TVs these days are likely to be technically obsolete before they fail. I have already asked several days ago if you wanted written confirmation of this from a TV engineer. I received no reply. The company I dealt with almost laughed at me when I said that it had failed after such a short time and that I needed their report. They didn't understand why I was having this problem in getting the TV replaced as it must have been faulty, or poorly assembled, but not immediately obvious. It was suggested that one or more sub-standard components failed.
I have already stated twice that I decline the offer of £55. I have tried to negotiate a satisfactory settlement on several occasions. Amazon refused to liaise with the mediation company I appointed, so I am quite happy to rely on a decision to be made by the Small Claims Court. I think I will only need my interpretation of the law to be seen by someone who has bought a TV in the last few years and will find the statement by Amazon that it should only last three years to be absurd. I also note that there was no reply to, nor acknowledgement of, my request for a Deadlock Letter.
I realise that the law isn't clear in this matter, but I am going to let someone else make that decision for us. This matter is now out of my hands.
Martin Watson
> Message From Executive Customer Relations
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> Dear Mr Watson,
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> I am from Amazons Executive Customer Relations.
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> I am sorry to hear that the TV became faulty after 3 years of use. I have checked your previous correspondence and I understand that you have requested for a credit refund of £225.00 multiple times in your previous emails. I can see that the Consumer Rights Act 2015 indicates that customers may make a claim in respect of defective goods for a maximum period of 6 years. This doesn't imply that an item has a warranty of six years respectively, but permits an individual to make a claim under certain circumstances within that time period.
>
> While Amazon doesn't provide the warranty for this item, we honour our obligations under the Consumer Rights Act, which grants recourse against a seller of goods if those goods were defective at the time of purchase (i.e. if there was an inherent fault in the goods). This may include, in certain circumstances, repair, refund or replacement, but only to the extent that doing so is not disproportionate to the value of the goods, having regard to the use the customer has already had of the goods and the nature of the goods. In addition, in order to be entitled to any repair, refund or replacement 6 months or more after purchase of goods, you must be able to provide evidence that the product was defective at the time of purchase.
>
> For more information on your statutory rights, please contact your local Trading Standards Office.
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> I see that you made your purchase approximately 39 months ago and have used it successfully and reported no fault with the product until now. As a result, we aren't able to offer you a repair, replacement or refund of the replacement value. However, as a measure of goodwill in this particular instance, we would like to offer you £55.00 to your gift certificate balance. You can use this towards a future order on the Amazon.co.uk website. Please confirm if you wish to accept this and I will make the appropriate arrangements.
>
> Unfortunately, we won't be able to assist any further on this issue, but we'll be more than happy to provide any help you may need in the future.
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I think I'd be doing a bit of research, such as looking to see if A-z-n is still selling TVs manufactured by that particular company - if not then I'd be suspicious.
Also I'd be surfing to see if the particular make/model of your TV has caused problems for other buyers.
Additionally, I don't know whether I was conned or not but a short while ago I had cause to have the repairman to my TV. He immediately said it was a Sky satellite dish problem - apparently they'd brought out a new configuration (or some such). I pointed out that I didn't have Sky TV but did have a dish for TV reception, as my original ordinary aerial was receiving disturbed signals due to a new nearby windfarm. The new dish was installed and the TV reception is back to normal.
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MedPat
ASDA - Walmart - good companies. Some of the others are hardly surviving. Some will be totally out of business. When is the question? The answer is when the announcement comes that they are closing down stores and laying off employees.
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Final update. Yesterday I got cold feet and decided I didn't want to risk losing and getting costs awarded against me so I reluctantly accepted the offer of £55. I'm very disappointed but it was a victory for my very reluctant common sense over my natural tenacity and obsession.
Thank you all for your comments suggestions and support.
Martin
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Amazon are offering a 65 inch LG oled for a mere £1989, add a few hundred for a sound system and you are away. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Mike
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Final update. Yesterday I got cold feet and decided I didn't want to risk losing and getting costs awarded against me so I reluctantly accepted the offer of £55. I'm very disappointed but it was a victory for my very reluctant common sense over my natural tenacity and obsession.
Thank you all for your comments suggestions and support.
Martin
Martin, I have only just read this thread and from the letter you wrote (answer 29) I am not surprised they have refused a repair or refund.
Consider this-
(From their eyes) The TV has been used for over 3 years, that is a possible minimum of 26280 hours use (it is up to you to prove less use).
It had worked perfectly well for those 3 years therefore it was not faulty when purchased.
(You claim) “an LED screen is expected to be good for in excess of 50,000 hours” Did the screen fail (I.E. the LEDs fail to light/change state etc.)? You mention in you initial post “stripes across the screen” They could be caused by the other electronics in the TV rather than the screen.
You have not (from what I can see) offered the company any proof to back up your claims, but have simply mentioned comments, opinions and suggestions.
To back up your claim after so many years you would really have to have a detailed engineer's report specifying the exact fault and the component(s) that failed. You have not even mentioned whether they have actually examined the TV itself or have made the comments based on your description of the fault to them.
It seems to me the company have been generous offering you £55 as a goodwill gesture as many High Street companies would have offered nothing.
Though it is possible to make claims after a number of years the onus is on the claimant to prove the fault was present at the time of purchase by the use of expert reports rather than comments and suggestions.
Sorry if this sounds harsh.
Cheers
Guy
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For what it is worth....
My husband is an electrical engineer, having started along that road by training as a TV repairer.
He says these days ALL electrical equipment has "built in obsolescence", that is, everything is designed and built to fail after an "appropriate" period, often around 3 years. :(
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For what it is worth....
My husband is an electrical engineer, having started along that road by training as a TV repairer.
He says these days ALL electrical equipment has "built in obsolescence", that is, everything is designed and built to fail after an "appropriate" period, often around 3 years. :(
Typical of our throwaway society.
My present TV, (2012), cost much less than either of the 2 sets which I bought around 1990. Those lasted 20 years. On the other hand, my first TV, black & white portable, had to be repaired aged 2. It had been carted around 3 or 4 lodgings during those 2 years.