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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Jill Eaton on Wednesday 28 November 18 09:16 GMT (UK)
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I have a catholic baptism for twins in 1859. The baptism took place at St Mary's Horseferry Road Westminster. I downloaded the original image from Findmypast.
The children are Daniel and Joanna Sullivan. Father called Daniel Sullivan and mother called Honora (looks like Mornahan?) godparents Patrick Sullivan, Ellen (Mornahan?) and Maria Sullivan
There is no address on the record for them but the document says born Mai (May) 1859.
I can't find a birth registration for either of them. I'd also like to know if there were any other children from this marriage.
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Do you know any more about the twins - whether they survived & appear in any census? If you can’t find a registration in the usual places then it is perfectly possible their births were not registered.
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With all those very Irish sounding names and being Catholic too,it is possible that they were born in Ireland.
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Now found in 1861: RG9/48/147/17
4 James Court, St John Westminster
Daniel Sullivan 35 coal porter County Cork
Honora Sullivan 33 County Cork
Mary do daur 8 Whitechapel
Elizabeth do daur 6 Whitechapel
James do son 4 St John Westminster
Daniel do son 2 St John Westminster
Joanna do daur 2 St John Westminster
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Could it be this marriage?
Marriages Sep 1852
FORWARD Charlotte Westminster 1a 503
HILL Joseph Westminster 1a 503
Murrion Honora Westminster 1a 503
RICE Richard St James 1a 503
Sullivan Daniel Westminster 1a 503
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Possibly the same family in 1871 living in St John Westminster London:
Daniel Sulivan Head M 44 born Ireland occ: Labourer
Norah Sulivan Wife F 38 born Ireland
Elza Sulivan Daughter 16 born Westminster
James Sulivan Son 14 born Westminster
Daniel Sulivan Son 12 born Westminster
Johanah Sulivan Daughter 12 born Westminster
Dennis Sulivan Son 9 born Westminster
Norah Sulivan Daughter 0 born Westminster
Ellen Daly Mother 43 Ireland
Patrick Daly Son 7 Ireland
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Can you post a snippet of the findmypast baptism image so that we can look at Honora's maiden name please? I can't find any of the childrens' births [as likely from the 2 census finds] on GRO index.
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Not sure if this is the right family - another baptism at Horseferry Rd Westminster:
Mary Sullivan born 3 Dec 1852, baptised 12 Dec 1852
Parents: Daniel + Honora nee Mulnane, of 5 New Court.
Sponsors: Terence Sullivan, Mary Sullivan.
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The mother’s maiden name is clearly Mornahan on the twins’ baptism.
They were baptised the same day they were born — 22 May 1859.
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Just looked at the image,it gives the girl's name as Johanna,and mum's maiden name looked like Mornahan.
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OK thanks, struggling to find image myself ::)
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Oddly, Honora’s maiden name is given as Warren on some of the children’s baptisms:
Dennis, born 2 Nov 1861 and bapt 10 Nov 1861
Ellen, born 18 Mar 1864 and bapt 24 Mar 1864 (in danger of death, baptised without ceremony)
Brigitta, born 13 Feb 1865 and bapt 26 Feb 1865
Eugene, born 29 Sep 1867 and bapt 10 Nov 1867
Honora, born 9 Sep 1870 and bapt 25 Sep 1870
Address: 2 Johnson’s Court, Great Peter St
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OK thanks, struggling to find image myself ::)
Look for Johanna Sullivan 1859, father “Danielis”, in England Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms.
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Marriage 4 July 1852 Danielis Sullivan and Honora Monaghan, Horseferry Road,Westminster.
William
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Good find -
probably possibly the marriage I found in reply #4 but mistranscribed onto original GRO index ???
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Not sure if this is the right family - another baptism at Horseferry Rd Westminster:
Mary Sullivan born 3 Dec 1852, baptised 12 Dec 1852
Parents: Daniel + Honora nee Mulnane, of 5 New Court.
Sponsors: Terence Sullivan, Mary Sullivan.
And this is where it gets very confusing. I'd checked on the birth indexes on gov.uk to find a mother's maiden name for Mary and the twins but as you've pointed out the surnames do vary. Mary's birth doesn't appear to be registered either.
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Oddly, Honora’s maiden name is given as Warren on some of the children’s baptisms:
Dennis, born 2 Nov 1861 and bapt 10 Nov 1861
Ellen, born 18 Mar 1864 and bapt 24 Mar 1864 (in danger of death, baptised without ceremony)
Eugene, born 29 Sep 1867 and bapt 10 Nov 1867
Honora, born 9 Sep 1870 and bapt 25 Sep 1870
Address: 2 Johnson’s Court, Great Peter St
Johnson's Court does crop up in my Harrington family.
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Surprised nobody has pointed out the slightly unusual fact (for twins) of being born on different dates ?
Johanna ... 21 Mai
Daniel .... 22 Mai
On the subject of registration, I am currently researching another Catholic family living in the Westminster area at about the same time and very few of the children seem to have been registered.
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Surprised nobody has pointed out the slightly unusual fact (for twins) of being born on different dates ?
Johanna ... 21 Mai
Daniel .... 22 Mai
Presumably either side of midnight! The twins in my family were born on 31 May and 1 June respectively - so not just different days, but different months :)
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It appears that none of the childrens births were registered as far as I can see - from RC baptisms:
Mary bp.1852 - mmn Mulnane
James bp.1856 - mmn Mahoney
Twins Daniel/Johanna bp.1859 - mmn Mornahan
plus (as already mentioned) all the childrens baptisms 1861, 1864, 1865, 1867, 1870 have mmn as Warren!
Annette
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Surprised nobody has pointed out the slightly unusual fact (for twins) of being born on different dates ?
Johanna ... 21 Mai
Daniel .... 22 Mai
On the subject of registration, I am currently researching another Catholic family living in the Westminster area at about the same time and very few of the children seem to have been registered.
Could Johanna have been born before 12 at night on the 21st and Daniel in the early hours of the morning on the 22nd?
As for catholics not registering births, this isn't the first time I've come across it either and also lying about the birth date in order to fall within the 40 days legal registration date.
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Surprised nobody has pointed out the slightly unusual fact (for twins) of being born on different dates ?
Johanna ... 21 Mai
Daniel .... 22 Mai
Presumably either side of midnight! The twins in my family were born on 31 May and 1 June respectively - so not just different days, but different months :)
Sorry. We were both obviously typing at the same time! ;D
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It appears that none of the childrens births were registered as far as I can see - from RC baptisms:
Mary bp.1852 - mmn Mulnane
James bp.1856 - mmn Mahoney
Twins Daniel/Johanna bp.1859 - mmn Mornahan
plus (as already mentioned) all the childrens baptisms 1861, 1864, 1865, 1867, 1870 have mmn as Warren!
Annette
I wonder why so many different surnames? I'm as certain as anyone can be that these families were poor and very probably illiterate. could it have been a combination of not knowing how to spell their name and/or a lack of spoken English which lead to the priest recording a variation of surnames?
Doesn't work with "Warren" though does it? ;)
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Oddly, Honora’s maiden name is given as Warren on some of the children’s baptisms:
Dennis, born 2 Nov 1861 and bapt 10 Nov 1861
Ellen, born 18 Mar 1864 and bapt 24 Mar 1864 (in danger of death, baptised without ceremony)
Eugene, born 29 Sep 1867 and bapt 10 Nov 1867
Honora, born 9 Sep 1870 and bapt 25 Sep 1870
Address: 2 Johnson’s Court, Great Peter St
There is a catholic marriage at Horseferry Road in 1870 for an Honora Warren to a Dennis Cochlane. Her father's surname appears to be Carroll.