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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: kdsoph on Saturday 01 December 18 02:48 GMT (UK)
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Hi There!
I am hoping that you may be able to assist me with identifying or giving me some information on the soldier pictured in the photo I have attached.
His identity is a bit of a family mystery and I would be thrilled if it could be solved. I had already posted a request on the beginners' board a few years ago and they were amazing with their information and guidance which included a link to this board.
Re: Gweneth Lydia Fordham birth https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=722500.9 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=722500.9)
This is what I have come up with so far...
There are 2 little girls sitting on the soldier's knee and they are my grandmother, Gweneth Fordham and her identical twin sister, Sylvia.
Suspect No. 1 Father Arthur George Fordham (1893-1959)
The twins were born in Waratah Newcastle NSW Australia between June and Dec 1915 to Arthur George Fordham and Lena Agnes Fordham nee Baker (1892-1970).
I have not been able to find any record of Arthur George Fordham enlisting for service, so if he didn't the soldier pictured is not their father.
Suspect no. 2 Uncle John James Baker (1889-1957)
I have researched other family members and the only one I can find that served in WWI was John James Baker SN: 1566 3rd light Horse and 12th Army Brigade on the 28th July 1915 age about 26.
I have an image of John James taken when he was 20 which I have attached. The 2 men look very similar but I am not convinced they are one and the same.
John James' war record backs up the theory that this soldier is not him as he embarked 1811 1915 when the twins were either not born yet or only 5 months old and he was not discharged until 5th May 1919 when the twins would have been 4 years old (the twins in this photo look to be about 2).
Does this uniform match his rank at the time do you know?
The only opportunity for this photo to have been taken that I can see is in Oct 1917 when he went on 2 weeks leave. Where he went I do not know. Would it be possible he came all the way back to Australia and then all the way back to England? If so then the date of his leave is almost perfect. Is there any way to find out?
If this is not John James Baker there were other uncles to look at but I can find no record of any of them enlisting.
Lena had 3 bothers
Lieut. John James Baker who served in WWI: see above
Arthur Samuel Baker 1891 - 1951
George Frank Baker 1893 - 1983
Arthur George Fordham, on the other hand, had 2 surviving brothers
Ernest John Fordham 1884 -1931
Herbert William 1886 - 1945
I can't find Military service for any of them but this may be because I am a novice at this.
It's probably "too huge an ask" so I expect you will be having a bit of a giggle at this request, as am I, but I figure "if you don't ask, you don't get" ;D
Thank you so much for reading this. Any and all suggestions are welcome.
Kind Regards
Kim
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Looks like the same man in both photos to me.
Jamjar
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...... in Oct 1917 when he went on 2 weeks leave. Where he went I do not know. Would it be possible he came all the way back to Australia and then all the way back to England?
Unless he had a time machine, no it would not be possible.
Debra :)
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It was not possible for any person serving in the AIF and in 1917 at the Front .. to travel back to Australia and then return back to the front within two weeks.
1. Voyage by ship depended on available ships and they were all basically required for troop transport...
2. Voyage by ship from any east coast Australian port to Albany in W.A. took almost a fortnight ...
3. Aeroplanes had not yet managed to fly between Europe and Australia ...
:D :D :D
Question ... are you sure the girls are twins ... the NSW BDM online index has a provision for drilling down on birthdates, and they are listed as running numbered references BUT do you actually have the details from those two consecutive registrations ...
JM
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There are quite a few John James Baker war records online. Could you indicate which is your John’s record, please?
Jamjar
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They sure look like twinnies to me, JM. ;D
Jamjar
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NSW BDM may not have them with same dob ... or perhaps my puter is having a lend of NSW BDM ...
; :)
JM
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Sylvie L FORDHAM 46254/1915
Gweneth L FORDHAM 46255/1915
both with parents Arthur G and Lena A at Waratah.
;) :D
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I think I agree with Jamjar that the 2 men look
the same similar, my only reservation is the first appears to have a dimple in his chin whereas it's hard to see if the 2nd has the same dimple (could be just the low resolution scan).
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.....
Question ... are you sure the girls are twins ... the NSW BDM online index has a provision for drilling down on birthdates, and they are listed as running numbered references BUT do you actually have the details from those two consecutive registrations ...
JM
NSW BDM may not have them with same dob ... or perhaps my puter is having a lend of NSW BDM ...
; :)
JM
Sylvie L FORDHAM 46254/1915
Gweneth L FORDHAM 46255/1915
both with parents Arthur G and Lena A at Waratah.
;) :D
Has anyone drilled down to get actual dd/mm/1915 dob? I am on e reader now but earlier when on my puter I had difficulty getting exact dob for theose two consequective numbers ... to confirm them as twins ...
JM ps please excuse my e reader as it cannot spell. ::) ::)
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Ok, Sylvie born 19 December 1915, but there seems to be something wrong, either with me or the BDM because Gweneth appears each day from 1 January to 31 December. ???
Also, details of brother William's birth registration now online too:
William J FORDHAM 32176/1918 Waratah
Modified to show that Gweneth's birth registration seems to appear for every day in 1915
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Ummmm so I will phone a rellie, retired NSW BDM senior officer for his grey cells thoughts ...
1915 .. what if 1914 ... please try for last quarter of 1914 ...
JM
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Hi JM, no Gweneth birth in 1914 according to the BDM Index, but every day in 1915. Obviously a mistake somewhere, some sort of data entry error I would suspect.
Modified to add:
Having just the read the whole of the previous thread about Gweneth, at least Sylvie's birth date in December clears up one mystery, and shows the twins weren't covering up for anything. :)
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Phone call received ;D EDP errors can cause issues ... but I have asked same question about that surname before .. years ago ... IF it is important, ask for official transcription of the highest number as it should be clearly noted as for -the younger of twins' as it should also show name of the 'elder of twins' under previous issue... ;D ;D
JM
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There are quite a few John James Baker war records online. Could you indicate which is your John’s record, please?
Jamjar
OP has amended the opening post to include info :D
JM
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Question ... posed on behalf of 2nd AIF rellie...
Photo with the girls ... concern if that was actually original AIF issue belt and also AIF trousers ....
I have no ideas re uniforms ::) but I
do have ancient rellies :) and if they ask too msny curly questions they will get potatoes in their sacks 25 December ...
JM
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The man in uniform with the twins is clearly an officer. Sam Browne belt is one clue and there seem to be two pips on his shoulders making him a Lieutenant.
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At the naa.gov.au website there is an index entry showing a separate AIF file not yet digitised for Lieutenant John James BAKER service number 1566 , up to 1923 :) perhaps our OP may wish to organise for its digitisation, there are fees for that as it is a separate file in a different series to his main B2455 series file.
JM
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The soldier with the twins appears to have a medal ribbon above his left tunic pocket.
Do the military records you have indicate the date of any medal awards?
Tony
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He RTA to Australia in mid 1919. The girls could would be 3 1/2 if the photo was taken in Australia on his return.
JM
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I think they could easily be 3½ years.
On Wednesday evening last Lieutenant J. J. Baker, after nearly four years active service abroad was given a welcome home at 'Lenora', the residence of his sister, Mrs. A. Fordham, Myola-street, Mayfield.......
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/162567243
Bottom of second highlighted column and continues third column.
Debra :)
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Looks like the same man in both photos to me.
Jamjar
Thank you so much for your thoughts - I want them to be but the evidence is hinting they are not. They do look very alike but they still could be cousins or something? ;)
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Looks like the same man in both photos to me.
Jamjar
Thank you so much for your thoughts - I want them to be but the evidence is hinting they are not. They do look very alike but they still could be cousins or something? ;)
I think we have established that the chap in the photo with the girls is your Lieutenant John James BAKER..
Photo after his RTA.
JM
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I am still getting a handle on how to reply to all these amazing insights so I apologise if I am doing this wrong. I am a bit methodical so am working my way down the list. Thank you all so much!
It was not possible for any person serving in the AIF and in 1917 at the Front .. to travel back to Australia and then return back to the front within two weeks.
1. Voyage by ship depended on available ships and they were all basically required for troop transport...
2. Voyage by ship from any east coast Australian port to Albany in W.A. took almost a fortnight ...
3. Aeroplanes had not yet managed to fly between Europe and Australia ...
:D :D :D
Question ... are you sure the girls are twins ... the NSW BDM online index has a provision for drilling down on birthdates, and they are listed as running numbered references BUT do you actually have the details from those two consecutive registrations ...
JM
Thank you Jm and Thanks too Debra.
I figured that but I was living in the delusional hope.
Yes I am sure the girls were twins. I knew both of them very well. They were so identical that later in life after they retired and Syl's husband had died, (when they were bored) they would swap homes 1000km apart for 6 weeks and wreak havoc in their sister's community and then swap back to survey the damage. It left 2 small suburbs of Mayfield in Newcastle and Regents Park in Sydney very confused for about a decade ;D
I have the transcripts of their birth certs. Please see attached.
Kim
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There are quite a few John James Baker war records online. Could you indicate which is your John’s record, please?
Jamjar
Jamjar- tell me about it. My John James Baker enlisted in South Australia. his NOK was his mother Mary Ann Baker SN: 1566 3rd light Horse and 12th Army Brigade on the 28th July 1915 age about 26.
I have attached a screenshot of the 1st page in the hopes that helps
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I think I agree with Jamjar that the 2 men look the same similar, my only reservation is the first appears to have a dimple in his chin whereas it's hard to see if the 2nd has the same dimple (could be just the low resolution scan).
Yup. the 2nd is a very low res scan. its a photo of a photo and I cropped him as he is part of a family group. Do men grow dimples as they get older? ??? ;D
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.....
Question ... are you sure the girls are twins ... the NSW BDM online index has a provision for drilling down on birthdates, and they are listed as running numbered references BUT do you actually have the details from those two consecutive registrations ...
JM
NSW BDM may not have them with same dob ... or perhaps my puter is having a lend of NSW BDM ...
; :)
JM
Sylvie L FORDHAM 46254/1915
Gweneth L FORDHAM 46255/1915
both with parents Arthur G and Lena A at Waratah.
;) :D
Has anyone drilled down to get actual dd/mm/1915 dob? I am on e reader now but earlier when on my puter I had difficulty getting exact dob for theose two consequective numbers ... to confirm them as twins ...
JM ps please excuse my e reader as it cannot spell. ::) ::)
According to their birth cert transcripts, they were born on the 19th Dec 1915. I am wondering if this can be trusted as there are so many other dates flying around. In my first post 10th June 1915 came up. I only just ordered these transcripts so I am thinking they were 'voted' the most correct? ;D ??? :P
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Ok, Sylvie born 19 December 1915, but there seems to be something wrong, either with me or the BDM because Gweneth appears each day from 1 January to 31 December. ???
Also, details of brother William's birth registration now online too:
William J FORDHAM 32176/1918 Waratah
Modified to show that Gweneth's birth registration seems to appear for every day in 1915
Gwen would have loved that! Every day was a birthday to her. She celebrated a sneeze!
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The man in uniform with the twins is clearly an officer. Sam Browne belt is one clue and there seem to be two pips on his shoulders making him a Lieutenant.
Oh gosh. John James Baker was a Lieutenant. I supposed the girls could be 3 not 4 if they were born in Dec 1915 and John came back in July 1919 - I calculate they would be 3 1/2.
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At the naa.gov.au website there is an index entry showing a separate AIF file not yet digitised for Lieutenant John James BAKER service number 1566 , up to 1923 :) perhaps our OP may wish to organise for its digitisation, there are fees for that as it is a separate file in a different series to his main B2455 series file.
JM
I went looking for this unopened extra file and can't find it. How do I search for it please? All I get is the digitised one that I already have.
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The soldier with the twins appears to have a medal ribbon above his left tunic pocket.
Do the military records you have indicate the date of any medal awards?
Tony
I think he received three which I have seen before for other rellies...unless they gave him something special for when he broke his ankle playing footie. I have attached the screenshot. Please note I have trouble understanding some of the handwriting. :-[
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I think they could easily be 3½ years.
On Wednesday evening last Lieutenant J. J. Baker, after nearly four years active service abroad was given a welcome home at 'Lenora', the residence of his sister, Mrs. A. Fordham, Myola-street, Mayfield.......
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/162567243
Bottom of second highlighted column and continues third column.
Debra :)
Oh Debra. You are a star. I forgot to search Trobe for JJ Baker instead of John James. How cool! ;D
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I think they could easily be 3½ years.
On Wednesday evening last Lieutenant J. J. Baker, after nearly four years active service abroad was given a welcome home at 'Lenora', the residence of his sister, Mrs. A. Fordham, Myola-street, Mayfield.......
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/162567243
Bottom of second highlighted column and continues third column.
Debra :)
Oh Debra. You are a star. I forgot to search Trove for JJ Baker instead of John James. How cool! ;D
As a quick add on. The house in which they are celebrating is the home of my peeps. i.e. Gwen and Syl's parents Lena and Arthur and their grandfather William Fordham. Thank you so much
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Looks like the same man in both photos to me.
Jamjar
Thank you so much for your thoughts - I want them to be but the evidence is hinting they are not. They do look very alike but they still could be cousins or something? ;)
I think we have established that the chap in the photo with the girls is your Lieutenant John James BAKER..
Photo after his RTA.
JM
Oh JM I think you are very right! Jack is Back! (they called him Jack). Thank you so much everyone. Tonight you have all done a very good thing. You made me and, soon to be told, my cousins ...Very happy!
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I went looking for this unopened extra file and can't find it. How do I search for it please? All I get is the digitised one that I already have.
Just search with his surname and service number = BAKER 1566
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/index.aspx
They are just his pay files.
Debra :)
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The digitised AIF files are freely available to search for, through, download etc.
http://soda.naa.gov.au/record/3009867/1 Service Records for Baker, 1566. Digitised.
Plus there's http://soda.naa.gov.au/record/4292270/1 Pay File for Baker, 1566. Not Digitised, but on open access, so likely they would be available for digitisation on payment of applicable fees.
Re the two official transcriptions of the 1915 Birth Certificates, uploaded to reply # 23. These definitely confirm the girls were born 15 December 1915, they indicate which lass was the elder, and on the younger one's birth registration you will notice that the record shows she has an older, living sibling... I do not actually understand why the Opening Post (raised less than ten hours earlier than reply #23) notes they were born ... between June and December 1915. ... .......
His identity is a bit of a family mystery and I would be thrilled if it could be solved. I had already posted a request on the beginners' board a few years ago and they were amazing with their information and guidance which included a link to this board.
Re: Gweneth Lydia Fordham birth https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=722500.9 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=722500.9)
This is what I have come up with so far...
There are 2 little girls sitting on the soldier's knee and they are my grandmother, Gweneth Fordham and her identical twin sister, Sylvia.
Suspect No. 1 Father Arthur George Fordham (1893-1959)
The twins were born in Waratah Newcastle NSW Australia between June and Dec 1915 to Arthur George Fordham and Lena Agnes Fordham nee Baker (1892-1970). ......
Not to worry though, I am sure our OP is now sure of the identity of her Soldier, and it is now just a matter of figuring out which lass in the photo is Gwen. :D :D :D ... ;)
JM
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The digitised AIF files are freely available to search for, through, download etc.
http://soda.naa.gov.au/record/3009867/1 Service Records for Baker, 1566. Digitised.
Plus there's http://soda.naa.gov.au/record/4292270/1 Pay File for Baker, 1566. Not Digitised, but on open access, so likely they would be available for digitisation on payment of applicable fees.
Re the two official transcriptions of the 1915 Birth Certificates, uploaded to reply # 23. These definitely confirm the girls were born 15 December 1915, they indicate which lass was the elder, and on the younger one's birth registration you will notice that the record shows she has an older, living sibling... I do not actually understand why the Opening Post (raised less than ten hours earlier than reply #23) notes they were born ... between June and December 1915. ... .......
His identity is a bit of a family mystery and I would be thrilled if it could be solved. I had already posted a request on the beginners' board a few years ago and they were amazing with their information and guidance which included a link to this board.
Re: Gweneth Lydia Fordham birth https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=722500.9 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=722500.9)
This is what I have come up with so far...
There are 2 little girls sitting on the soldier's knee and they are my grandmother, Gweneth Fordham and her identical twin sister, Sylvia.
Suspect No. 1 Father Arthur George Fordham (1893-1959)
The twins were born in Waratah Newcastle NSW Australia between June and Dec 1915 to Arthur George Fordham and Lena Agnes Fordham nee Baker (1892-1970). ......
Not to worry though, I am sure our OP is now sure of the identity of her Soldier, and it is now just a matter of figuring out which lass in the photo is Gwen. :D :D :D ... ;)
JM
I am so sorry. :-[ I should have qualified my question about the twins' exact age. When I posted years ago (on link #1) I was asking 2 questions. How do I find out their birthday (the date had not yet been released) and how do I find out who the soldier is. ???
The answer came back that they were born 10th or 11th Oct, which would mean Lena was pregnant when she married (and Gwen had been celebrating her birthday 6 months after she was born). - HUGE SCANDAL! Lena was a Temperance gal and VERY straight-laced.
Then a couple of days ago as we were "comparing dimples", I received the transcripts of their birth certs which states they were born 19th Dec. so at the beginning of the thread I was still not sure and at the end of the thread with transcripts in hand ...I am still not sure but willing to accept the transcript dates of 19th Dec.
Thank you again so much. I am sure the soldier is Lieutenant John James Baker now and as to your question about which is Gwen...I already know...Gwen is the pretty one ;D :D ;)
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Found on trove.nla.gov.au
"Newcastle Morning Herald and Miner's Advocate" Sat. 25th Dec. 1915.
Family Notices - Births.
FORDHAM. - December 19, at their residence, "Lenora," Myola St., Mayfield, to Mr. and Mrs. A.G. Fordham - twin daughters - Sylvia and Gweneth.
Regards, Dod.
P.S. Also on trove.
"The Telegraph" (Brisbane, Qld.) Fri. 17 Sep. 1915.
Roll Of Honour. (Listed in the 2nd last column.)
"Gnr. A.G. Fordham, 2nd F.A. Bde., W." (W on the end = Wounded.)
Could this A.G. Fordham be the twins father, and the man in the photograph with them?
A lovely photograph of beautiful twin girls.
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I think Gnr. A.G. Fordham in the Brisbane newspaper found by ecksdochter here https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/179684502 and
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/179684113
is also mentioned here:
The Kalgoorlie Miner of Friday 17th Sept 1915 has under their Wounded List ... 2nd Field Artillery Brigade - Gunner A.G. FORDHAM (Mt Barker). (it mentions it is the 78th casualty list)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/87389199
and therefore would likely be
http://soda.naa.gov.au/record/4024237/1 Albert George FORDHAM, #1581
page 11 of 36, changes his nok to wife, Doris Ella Fordham, ... London...
pages 18, 19, 20 AIF extract of marriage, 27 Sept 1916, in England.
so not the father of the girls in the photo...
JM