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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: ali607 on Sunday 02 December 18 00:13 GMT (UK)
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Hi everyone,
I am trying to find out more about my grandad. He was supposably born illegitemate - no name on birth certificate. He did provide a name later on on his marriage cert but probably not accurate. I do know that he changed his name later in life and have much info on him thereafter including naval records. I thought this record may provide name of his father...possibly?
I dont actually know that he officially changed his name by deed poll but it's worth a try.
I know he changed his name sometime between 1945-1958...probably 1947-1958.
Could anyone point me in the right direction in finding out whether he changed his name by deed poll or not? Do you need to know the county?
Many thanks
Alison
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This is The National Archives guide to changes of name and deeds poll
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides-keywords/?show=keywords&keyword-letter=d&keyword=deeds-poll#step-three
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Do you have the birth certificate, and marriage certificate?
The use of another family name...was it subsequent to his marriage...so birth certificates of children needed to be changed? After his marriage, when is the earliest use that you see of the different family name?
Are the two family names significantly different or just variations of the one name?
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There are images of blank British Deed Poll Application forms online and there is no reference to the parents of an adult. The only reference to parents names being required is an application to change the name of a minor under the age of 18 years.
Unless you require a legal name change for a passport, driving licence, etc., you don't need to go down that route.
Here's a website that answers many questions, and yours is Question 10:
"Q10: I am trying to find a record of a relative's name change. Can you tell me if they have changed their name by Deed Poll?
A: Searching for someone's Deed Poll is like looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack. This is because there is no central register of all name changes by Deed Poll. Furthermore, in addition to ourselves, a Deed Poll can be prepared by any of the many thousands of solicitors in the UK and there are other websites providing the service. Even if you discovered who prepared your relative's Deed Poll, client confidentiality prevents the disclosing of any information about the Deed Poll.
The only chance you have of locating a Deed Poll is ...... "
http://www.deedpoll.org.uk/OtherFAQs.html
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Under the Laws of England & Wales (Scotland too, I think?) a person has the right to call themselves anything they like, just as long as it's not for purposes of fraud or deceit.
A Deed Poll is not necessary.
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Let's clear up the myth of what a deed poll is; in law a poll is a document with straight edges, rather than roughly torn or indented edges. A deed is a written intention, put the two together and you have a deed poll a persons written intention.
It is important to realise that in the UK a deed poll does not change the person's name, it merely shows the persons intention to change their name.
The change of name is only effected by using the new name.
Cheers
Guy
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Hi WIvenhoe,
Yes I have both the birth and 1st and 2nd marriage certificate and death certificate.
He deserted the first marriage and the only child - my dad - never to be seen again. I believe this to be the reason for the name change as he owed the mother money for the upbringing of the child and he had been in court over it.
After years of searching I did find that he had changed his name and took his forename to make up a new second name. As I remember, on his 2nd marriage certificate, it says his new name and then 'formerly old name' in brackets underneath. I have narrowed down the time frame to between 1947-1958 for changing his name. I wanted to see if there was any formal documents to see if they provided a clue to his father...
Former name - Desmond Jervis Salter
New Name - Robert Desney (made up)
Thanks for all the other information regarding deed poll name changes. I thought it was a bit more of a formal record and would have been easier to find...
Alison
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If a name is changed by Deed Poll it should show up in the London Gazette.
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Yes thanks - I've searched and nothing comes up...
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My mother elected to change her surname and I only discovered this when I looked at my full birth certificate.
On it are the details of her name changing and the date she elected to do this. As far as I know this is the only record I've found and it doesn't tell me the place where this was done. The date of this declaration was 5 days before my birth was registered!
Her reason for this name change was because my father was already married so therefore was unable to marry my mother but they remained together, my father never returned to his first family. It came as quite an eye opener when I read it as they had kept my birth certificate from me for a very long time!
I would be interested to know if there is an actual document somewhere that verifies this information.
Would it have to be done by a solicitor or at the Registrars?
Caroline
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Link to previous post more details on Desmond's mother Ethel Salter
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=169014.0
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You can call yourself what you like as long as it is not for criminal purposes, you don't need a lawyer or Registrar. You just inform you bank and others etc that you wish to be known by the new name.
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I'm not entirely convinced filling in a 2nd marriage certificate with both of the names you have used is hiding from the government if you owed money in court.
Also if you were not divorced/legally separated would they not notice you marrying again bigamously?
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This birth entry is probably just co-incidence and not a sibling?
Births Sep 1923
Jervis Bertha Salter Chesterfield 7b 1398
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If a name is changed by Deed Poll it should show up in the London Gazette.
No, only if the deed poll was enrolled, and most are not.
All the information required to answer the poster's original question is in the link posted by crisane right back in reply #1. It's worth reading. Here it is again ...
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/changes-of-name/
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On the two marriage certificates that you have....do the signatures of the groom look the same?
How is the groom described in each.....age, occupation, address, father's name and occupation?
Are these the two marriages -
FreeBDM
SALTER Desmond marr. MAXFIELD @ Sheffield 9c /1528 JunQ 1942
DESNEY Robert marr. FINLAYSON @ Ploughley 6b / 1801 DecQ 1958
births
SALTER Desmond mms. SALTER @ Chelsea 1a 477 DecQ 1918
SALTER Desmond E mms. DENSLEY @ Farnham 2a / 236 SepQ 1926
If you the assume use of a new name to avoid detection, it is wise to keep your given name, unless it is a very distinctive name. If people call to you as "Robert" when your name is really "Desmond", and you do not respond, it would draw attention.
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I'm not entirely convinced filling in a 2nd marriage certificate with both of the names you have used is hiding from the government if you owed money in court.
Also if you were not divorced/legally separated would they not notice you marrying again bigamously?
He left the original marriage in about 1947 (although had never been fully present since the birth of the child in 1945). There was a divorce for which I have papers. He basically went AWAL on and off for a few years after the birth - he was in the navy and I believe 'had a woman in every port'.
I think he may have changed his name quite soon after 1947 to avoid the courts...I have seen some phone book entries which are possibly him under his new name (it's obviously an unusual name!)
However the second marriage was 11 years later in 1958 - when he uses his new name in brackets. And it does say 'formerly Desmond Salter)...which maybe indicaters that it wasn't done by deed poll...but I have to try and uncover every stone in a bid to find any clues as to his father!
Alison
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Is name change more common than we think?
Well -
What is the total membership of RootsChat and how many use their real name?
Regards
Chas/Kiltpin
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Your statements -
"..Former name - Desmond Jervis Salter New Name - Robert Desney (made up)"
"..... in 1958 - when he uses his new name in brackets. And it does say 'formerly Desmond Salter)"
On the two marriage certificates that you have....do the signatures of the groom look the same?
How is the groom described in each.....age, occupation, address, father's name and occupation?
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I do not have them to hand at the moment...but I will have a look when I get home.
I'm sure as I remember, he signs the two marriage certificates each with a different name...
Occupations are different. Ages match up. Fathers name - one says Jervis Salter who I believe could be his uncle or other relative of his mother's side as he appears to have taken his mothers name...Cant remember what the other one says - I will check later today.
What are you thinking?
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I am thinking that it would be a good idea to know what is on both certificates.
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However the second marriage was 11 years later in 1958 - when he uses his new name in brackets. And it does say 'formerly Desmond Salter)...which maybe indicaters that it wasn't done by deed poll...but I have to try and uncover every stone in a bid to find any clues as to his father!
Alison
No it only indicates that he had at some time used another name, the official guidance states-
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01n4g/
"4.17 Sometimes a person uses, and is known by, two names at the same time in this instance both names should be entered using “otherwise”. If either of the couple have been known by another name you should try to link both names using “formerly known as” providing that the party does not object. If the party does object, you should advise them that unless both names are entered, difficulties may arise in future years concerning the identity of the party.
If the party still objects, you should enter the name and surname by which he/she is known"
Cheers
Guy
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GRO has specific guidance on marriage registration for entering names which have been changed.
Where a person has used (or been known by) another name, other than in cases of adoption, that name should be recorded in the name column as "formerly xxxx", but the person can choose not to have the previous name shown at all if they wish.
The previous name may also be omitted, and just the phrase "name changed by deed poll" shown, but only when the deed has been enrolled (registered with the courts).
the use of the "formerly xxx" option would suggest that either there was no deed poll, or if there was that it was never enrolled.
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Your statements -
"..Former name - Desmond Jervis Salter New Name - Robert Desney (made up)"
"..... in 1958 - when he uses his new name in brackets. And it does say 'formerly Desmond Salter)"
On the two marriage certificates that you have....do the signatures of the groom look the same?
How is the groom described in each.....age, occupation, address, father's name and occupation?
I have both certificates here:
1942 in Sheffield: 1st Marriage Desmond signs himself. Age 23. Details of Navy including number. His address in SHeffield is given - this is the address I gave to Traceline to trace him ten years ago. Which they did - all the way back to 1942!
Jervis Salter (deceased) given as father's name. ( I have since found that there is Jarvis Salter in his mum's line)
1958 in Ploughley oxford: 2nd marriage
RObert Desney formerly known as Desmond Salter. Previous marriage dissolved. As was his new wifes to be. Occupation: Foreman Shippers and Packers. Lived at Antique shop in Dorchester on Thames. Father and fathers occupation unknown (as they were on his birth certificate.)
All signatures were written by the registrar here...for everyone. In a very distinctive neat hand - definitely same person.
Alison
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???
"Charles Jarvis Salter (aged 20) is living in Fulham in 1901 with his mother Fanny (aged 48).
In 1881, this family are (25 Hill Street):
Jarvis Salter, 29
Fanny, 31
Ethel Lillian Salter, 3
Edith Mary, 1
Charles Jarvis Clerson Salter, 1M
Emma Salter, 59 (mother of Jarvis)"
You say you think Ethel was born in 1895? What is that based on?
She can't be the Ethel Salter above born in 1878. This Ethel Salter would have been 40 in 1918 when Desmond was born?
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The appearance of Jarvis/Jervis in connection with Desmond (this name has passed down through hearsay as well as on his marriage certificate) is quite a strong connection to the Salter line I think. They are both very unusal names...The fact that there is a Salter family with an Ethel AND a Jarvis is surely indicitive I have the right family...I know I still need to prove it...but
AND Charles Jarvis Clerson Salter married in Fulham too in 1908.
I think you are maybe seeing an old reference in an old (linked) post about Ethel being born in 1895. A different Ethel...I think I found a tentative link to this Ethel many years ago...can you show me where you have got that from please as I will need to follow it up?
The problem is that I cannot find Ethel anywhere in 1911 or 1901? I wonder if she went under Lilian...
Thanks so much for all your help!
Alison
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The appearance of Jarvis/Jervis in connection with Desmond (this name has passed down through hearsay as well as on his marriage certificate) is quite a strong connection to the Salter line I think. They are both very unusal names...The fact that there is a Salter family with an Ethel AND a Jarvis is surely indicitive I have the right family...I know I still need to prove it...but
AND Charles Jarvis Clerson Salter married in Fulham too in 1908.
I think you are maybe seeing an old reference in an old (linked) post about Ethel being born in 1895. A different Ethel...I think I found a tentative link to this Ethel many years ago...can you show me where you have got that from please as I will need to follow it up?
The problem is that I cannot find Ethel anywhere in 1911 or 1901? I wonder if she went under Lilian...
Thanks so much for all your help!
Alison
Google your old posts, that is what I did.
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The appearance of Jarvis/Jervis in connection with Desmond (this name has passed down through hearsay as well as on his marriage certificate) is quite a strong connection to the Salter line I think. They are both very unusal names...The fact that there is a Salter family with an Ethel AND a Jarvis is surely indicitive I have the right family...I know I still need to prove it...but
AND Charles Jarvis Clerson Salter married in Fulham too in 1908.
I think you are maybe seeing an old reference in an old (linked) post about Ethel being born in 1895. A different Ethel...I think I found a tentative link to this Ethel many years ago...can you show me where you have got that from please as I will need to follow it up?
The problem is that I cannot find Ethel anywhere in 1911 or 1901? I wonder if she went under Lilian...
Thanks so much for all your help!
Alison
Google your old posts, that is what I did.
Right - OK. I will. Sorry to have bothered or annoyed you... I used to be a dab hand at this. Please forgive me, I have had a break for over ten years plus I am a single mum with a 9 month old crawling about the place. I may miss things or make mistakes.
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Captain Sir Thomas Randolph Houstoun-Boswall 5th Baronet married Edith Mary Salter (daughter of Jarvis Salter and Fanny Smith) 1912 in Wandsworth.
freebdm Marriages Mar 1912
Salter Edith M Houstoun-Boswall Wandsworth 1d 740
was she married before (??)
Urquhart Edith M Houstoun Boswall Wandsworth 1d 740
http://www.houstoun.org.uk/Gene/tree/2/50457.htm
Pretty surprising
Nice photograph
http://www.houstoun.org.uk/Gene/tree/media/50635_1_lady_r_houstoun-boswall_2.jpg
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Edith Mary Salter married Robert Lish Urquhart, Scarborough, Sep qtr 1899.
12 September 1899 at Scarborough Register Office,
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Edith Mary Salter married Robert Lish Urquhart, Scarborough, Sep qtr 1899.
...and Robert sued her for divorce in 1911 (adultery), citing Thomas Randolph Houston Boswall as co-respondent.
The only child of the marriage was Robert Charles Duff Urquhart, born 26 June 1900.
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Details from the 12 September 1899 marriage at Scarborough Register Office:
Robert Lish Urquhart was 47, a bachelor, gentleman. Father: James Warden Urquhart (decd), banker.
Edith Mary Salter was 20, a spinster. Father: Jarvis Salter, gentleman.
Both "resident" at the Hydro, Scarborough, at the time of the marriage.
Witnesses: Robert J Pepper; William Foord.
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I think he may have changed his name quite soon after 1947 to avoid the courts...
He may have been at the Old Bailey in 1949. Got eighteen months.
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Captain Sir Thomas Randolph Houstoun-Boswall 5th Baronet married Edith Mary Salter (daughter of Jarvis Salter and Fanny Smith) 1912 in Wandsworth.
freebdm Marriages Mar 1912
Salter Edith M Houstoun-Boswall Wandsworth 1d 740
was she married before (??)
Urquhart Edith M Houstoun Boswall Wandsworth 1d 740
http://www.houstoun.org.uk/Gene/tree/2/50457.htm
Pretty surprising
Nice photograph
http://www.houstoun.org.uk/Gene/tree/media/50635_1_lady_r_houstoun-boswall_2.jpg
Wow! Wasn't expecting that. Well, if Edith is marrying a baronet that certainly don't sound like they're 'my lot'!! Could the sister have had an illegitemate child in London and be a boarder?? Is this what you were thinking avm?? Great digging!
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I think he may have changed his name quite soon after 1947 to avoid the courts...
He may have been at the Old Bailey in 1949. Got eighteen months.
Do you mean you have found some possible reference to this Jon??
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Then there are also the golf patents between 1899 and the divorce
ROBERT LISH URQUHART AND EDITH MARY URQUHART, OF DUNBAR, SCOTLAND
Maybe we should check the Scottish census for 1901 to see if Edith Salter was visiting?
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I think he may have changed his name quite soon after 1947 to avoid the courts...
He may have been at the Old Bailey in 1949. Got eighteen months.
Possibly Desmond Jarvis Salter? The right age
"“GENEROUS PLEA” BY REAL FRIEND
... the Recorder (Sir Gerald Dodson) as a generous plea by a real friend was made at the Old Bailey yesterday on behalf of Desmond Salter, 30, of Hampden-street, Nottingham, who pleaded guilty to obtaining, by means of a forged withdrawal form, £lOO from the Post Office Savings Bank"
Saturday 15 October 1949
Nottingham Evening Post
Sign up and get 3 free pages https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/
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Yes, the generous friend was an antiques dealer(?) called Kenneth Greenwood, who had been employing Desmond.
"I feel there is only a hair line between our two fortunes," said Mr. Greenwood, "he was brought up at an orphanage a stone's throw from the public school I attended."
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JON YOU HAVE HIM!!! Kenneth Greenwood was a witness to second marriage!! The married couple were living at an antiques shoip in dorchester on thames!! I knew that antique s shop was significant!!
Need a cold shower...
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so kenneth greenwood was defending desmond then?
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Hi
I think it all began in Maida Vale. Desmond was a bit naughty and made off with the post office savings account book and identity card of a chap called Alfred Jack Beal.
He tried to withdraw all of the money in Mr Beal's account(!), but instead got £100.
Mr Greenwood made a late plea, offering to take Desmond into his home. But the judge sent Desmond to prison. His address at the time was Hampden Street, Nottingham.
John