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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Derbyshire => Topic started by: Newfloridian on Wednesday 05 December 18 10:58 GMT (UK)
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I have found a William Bettison, born about 1832, described in the 1851 census for Clay Lane, Derbyshire, as nephew living in the household of Jesse Ball.
I am trying to confirm this William's parents. The GENUKI South Normanton Parish Records Marriage transcripts does include the marriage of William BETTISON and Mary BALL on November 24th 1830.
Two questions:
1. Does the actual parish record give any indication as to who Mary Ball was? Jesse Ball had an older sister called Mary.
2. Any idea of what happened to this William and Mary Bettison prior to 1841. William Bettison, the son, is already living in the same household as Jesse Ball in the 1841 census (older sister Mary is absent)
Many thanks
Alan
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They are both of this parish at time of marriage, William signed and Mary left her mark, witnesses John Rowe and ?Jermine Gill
The witnesses might prove helpful
Jan
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This may be a outside chance but 1841 Census has a William Bettison age 30 (1811) living next door to a William Ball and Family in Alfreton, occp Labourer.
1851 he is born Normanton, Derbyshire 1810, under Battison, Married to Jane.
(probably Jane Perkins 1843 possible Marriage FreeBMD)
William Ball in 1851 is born c 1810 South Norm, Derbyshire
F/S has;
MARY Bettison age 33 (1801)
burial:18 December 1834, South Normanton, Derbyshire
When do you have Mary Ball born?
1841 we have;
Ann Ball 60
Joseph Ball 35
Samuel Ball 35
Thomas Ball 25
John Ball 20
Jesse Ball 20****
Hannah Ball 25
Grace Ball 2
Willm BETTISON, 9, Coal Miner***
But if the William 1810 is yours he would be younger than Mary by 10 years.
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Many thanks
Hi Jan
The name Gill doesn't mean anything to me. However, I do have an Alice Rowe married to Emmanual Ball in S. Norm in 1858
Hi Trish
That is the 1841 census family in question. I may well have underestimated William Bettison (snr)'s age as that Mary Ball was born about 1799. I have seen that 1834 death notice too which would tie in with this history. Mary did have an illegitimate son - Ezra - sometime before 1820.
Another suggestion which could be pertinent to understanding this whole family is regarding Jesse Ball. I was under the impression that he was Mary's much younger brother (which would have explained the William Bettison nephew relationship). However an oddity appears in the transcript of Jesse's marriage to Mary Eyre where he declares his father to be George Swain. Mary Ball had a one year older sister called Grace. The 1861 census for Kirkby in Ashfield shows a George Swain (63 years) and wife Grace Swain (64) in residence. George was born in South Wingfield; Grace in S. Norm. I haven't found a marriage reference for this couple yet but this could indicate that Jesse was Grace's illegitimate son prior to this marriage.
Is the mud slowly clearing?
Alan
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Is the mud slowly clearing?
I hope so.
Yes I saw that Marriage for Jesse also and was confused by it.
I cant find anything online for the 1843 Marriage to see if William Bettison was widowed.
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I cant find anything online for the 1843 Marriage to see if William Bettison was widowed.
I've been looking for it too but have also drawn a blank :(
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Hmm .. I might have stirred up the pond again.
Just found this baptism entry (on F/S) for S. Norm:
Patience: daughter of George and Grace Swain baptised March 1st 1823
Hannah: daughter of George and Ann Swain baptised October 4th 1829
George: son of George and Ann Swain baptised June 22nd 1833
Same George? Two Georges?
Alan
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There is a South Normanton marriage for George Swain to Ann Norwood 25th August 1828 so could be the same George.
By the way John Rowe is a witness but also witnesses the marriage before so he may be a regular
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Interestingly too, The oldest of the three sisters (Grace, Mary) was named Patience (b abt 1797). Surely too much of a coincidence for that 1823 baptism.
But that then begs another question: Where did Grace go by 1829 and is it the same S. Norm Grace who has reappeared in the 1861 census
btw: there is a 2 year old Grace listed in that 1841 census above who is presumably youngest daughter Hannah's child.
Seems Pamela Sharpe was absolutely correct when she mentioned the Ball family in her little 1982 book!!
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Aha! Found it:
Jesse (spelled Je ligature-s y) Illegitimate son of Grace Ball baptised (unreadable date between Oct 2nd and Nov 19th) 1821
Alan
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I can't find a marriage for George Swain to Grace nor a burial for Grace prior to the George/Ann marriage in 1828 . Perhaps George and Grace ?Ball lived together parted company and then reunited, somewhat puzzling. I'll keep burrowing
Good find with Jesse :D
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... and to add to the mystery still further, the 19 year old Patience Swain (now a framework knitter) married Levi Shooter at St Martin's Alfreton on November 23 1842. Father's name, George Swain!
Alan
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Now here's another (?) coincidence - a 26 year old Patience Shooter died and ends up buried at St Thomas Church, Kirkby in Ashfield on September 2nd 1849. K in A was where George and Grace could be found in 1861!
Oh! and not so much a coincidence. Just found the entry in the 1851 census where George Swain is living with wife Gr (sic) and four daughters.
I wonder therefore whether she was indeed Grace Ann (or Ann Grace) Ball all along! Wouldn't surprise me as she was the first born of Ann Hardy
Alan
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George, Grace and Patience Swane (sic) all born not in county are in Kirky Ashfield in 1841 - there are other children born in county. This explains why the Derbyshire George and Grace baptisms stop and also it would seem there were 2 George Swains as George and Ann are in South Normanton in 1841.
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Good working with you. I'll just consolidate my database now before looking at the next "Ball" story!!
Many thanks
Alan
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Good work by you both :)
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Good work by you both :)
And by you Trish! Teamwork is the way to go
Jan
The Santa smilers are here :D :D :D
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Final thought on the 1851 census I mentioned in my first post. William Bettison was described as nephew to Jesse Ball whereas now that I have updated my database they were in fact 1st cousins
Alan
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Hello everyone
I am (also) trying to trace the Ball family in South Normanton. I am trying to trace the ancestry of Manfred Ball born abt 1844. I cannot find him on any 1851 census but on later census he lists his birth place as variously South Normanton or Mansfield. I know he married several times as his gravestone is marked with marriages to Mary (Walters) then Jemima (Barber) and then later I have a record for Jane Johnson. He lived in Calow later on and died in 1915. Does anyone have any records for him as I am struggling. On one census he is down as Manford. He had children including Harriet, Lucy, Manfred and William. Thanks very much
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Hi Andy
Are you directly related to Manfred? If so can you indicate which Ball line you link to?
Will speak again soon.
Cheers
Alan
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This query had me thinking about a lass I worked with in the Chartered Bank City of London, in 1955. She was a Bettison and so I wondered if there might be a connection here to your Derbyshire Bettison's. What came up when I just looked at a tree with her parents and grandparents on it was a bigger surprise.
Her grandfather was born Rampton Notts in 1857 - no great distance from Babworth near East Retford where my grandmother was born in 1869.
She went on to be a secretary to Ron Hubbard and landed up with his 'Society' in Los Angeles.
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‘I am trying to trace the ancestry of Manfred Ball born abt 1844‘
BALL, MANFRED - no mmn
GRO Reference: 1844 D Quarter in OF MANSFIELD UNION Volume 15 Page 488
Jamjar
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Marriages:
Mar 1865 Chesterfield 7b 636
BALL Manfred
WALTERS Mary
Mar 1880 Chesterfield 7b 841
BALL Manfred
BARBER Jemima
Mar 1899 Chesterfield 7b 844
BALL Manfred
JOHNSON Jane
Deaths:
Sept 1878 Chesterfield 7b 371
BALL Mary 30
Mar 1886 Chesterfield 7b 468
BALL Jemima 36
Possible births. highlighted ones on census:
WALTERS, HARRIET - no mmn
GRO Reference: 1864 S Quarter in CHESTERFIELD UNION IN THE COUNTY OF DERBY Volume 07B Page 518
BALL, LUCY mmn WALTERS
GRO Reference: 1868 S Quarter in CHESTERFIELD UNION IN THE COUNTY OF DERBY Volume 07B Page 511
BALL, ELIZABETH mmn WALTERS
GRO Reference: 1870 S Quarter in CHESTERFIELD IN THE COUNTY OF DERBY Volume 07B Page 580
BALL, MANFRED mmn WALTERS
GRO Reference: 1870 J Quarter in CHESTERFIELD IN THE COUNTY OF DERBY Volume 07B Page 561
BALL, MARY ANN mmn WALTERS
GRO Reference: 1872 J Quarter in CHESTERFIELD IN THE COUNTY OF DERBY Volume 07B Page 585
BALL, SARAH mmn WATTERS
GRO Reference: 1873 D Quarter in CHESTERFIELD IN THE COUNTY OF DERBY Volume 07B Page 605
BALL, BERTHA ADA mmn WALTERS
GRO Reference: 1873 M Quarter in CHESTERFIELD IN THE COUNTY OF DERBY Volume 07B Page 628
BALL, JOSEPH JAMES mmn WALTERS
GRO Reference: 1875 J Quarter in CHESTERFIELD Volume 07B Page 684
BALL, WILLIE mmn WALTERS
GRO Reference: 1876 J Quarter in CHESTERFIELD Volume 07B Page 662
BALL, GEORGE HENRY mmn WALTERS
GRO Reference: 1877 S Quarter in CHESTERFIELD Volume 07B Page 707
BALL, ARTHUR mmn WALTERS
GRO Reference: 1878 J Quarter in CHESTERFIELD Volume 07B Page 714
BALL, CHARLES JAMES mmn BARBER
GRO Reference: 1882 D Quarter in CHESTERFIELD Volume 07B Page 683
BALL, ERNEST WALTER mmn BARBER
GRO Reference: 1884 D Quarter in CHESTERFIELD Volume 07B Page 728
1871 census: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VB6T-J29
1881 census: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27K-1NL3
1891 census: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:4XWL-DZM
1901 census: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSJB-3DZ
1911 census: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7TR-1PR
Jamjar
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I think this is Manfred on the 1861 census with mother Lucy England:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7FJ-RNJ
I checked on GRO and ENGLAND/BALL births can be aligned with the census.
Eg:
ENGLAND, GEORGE mmn BALL
GRO Reference: 1846 D Quarter in BELPER UNION Volume 19 Page 397
ENGLAND, EMILY mmn BALL
GRO Reference: 1853 S Quarter in CHESTERFIELD UNION IN THE COUNTY OF DERBY Volume 07B Page 435
ENGLAND, HARRIET mmn BALL
GRO Reference: 1857 J Quarter in CHESTERFIELD UNION IN THE COUNTY OF DERBY Volume 07B Page 514
ENGLAND, ABRAHAM mmn BALL
GRO Reference: 1859 M Quarter in CHESTERFIELD UNION IN THE COUNTY OF DERBY Volume 07B Page 524
ENGLAND, MARY ANN mmn BALL
GRO Reference: 1861 S Quarter in CHESTERFIELD UNION IN THE COUNTY OF DERBY Volume 07B Page 487
Lucy BALL christening 1825: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NGGC-22N
Jamjar
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I think perhaps we should move this discussion about Manfred into a new thread as like so many Ball discussions it seems destined to run and run.
I agree with Jamjar that Manfred was (probably) illegitimate. The new GRO indexes show no mother's maiden name. In that case the next step would be to obtain a copy of that birth certificate to confirm which Ball girl it was - and indeed that this is a member of the South Normanton family. (Although S Norm is in Derbyshire its Registration District is Mansfield)
I also note Jamjar's theory that the mother could be Lucy Ball. The familysearch transcription for a possible baptism is slightly out (they quote July 13th 1825 whereas the Parish Record is written July 18th 1825). However this does note parents as Francis Ball (framework knitter) and Hannah.
So far, I have been unable to place this Francis in my Ball database but there is a Francis Ball (aged 55 years, Coal miner) and a widower living in Lees Lane in 1861 **. That would give a year of birth about 1806. I haven't found a local marriage between Francis Ball and Hannah to correlate with the baptism of Lucy yet BUT there is a marriage between a Francis Ball and Frances Vardy in S Norm on Christmas Day 1827. A case of death of one spouse and recruitment of a second perhaps?
Alan
** The householder in the 1861 census is a William Dibble. He married his wife, Grace Ball, in 1854. Grace was the daughter of Francis Ball and Frances Vardy - baptised October 18th 1829
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Hi - I'll open a new thread on Manfred Ball