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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: wobblybetty on Friday 07 December 18 23:37 GMT (UK)
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I'm trying to find my Irish roots through James Barr, my Great Grandfather. Apparently he married Margaret McTernan on 31st December 1918 in Loanhead, Lasswade, Scotland, when he was 26, so born in 1892. My brother has seen his Marriage Certificate which stated he was born in Ireland, but details of his Father or Mother were left blank.
I have searched ALL available sites, am on Ancestry.co.uk, FamilySearch.org and I cannot find a copy of the Marriage Certificate. His occupation was listed as Coal Miner, so I am trying to search in that area too.
I'm wondering if James was an orphan, but don't know how to find him. James and Margaret had a son, James Butler McTernan, who was born on 14th March 1915 in Edinburgh. Margaret registered his birth, so his birth certificate lists him as illegitimate. I'm currently searching the War Records at Kew to see if there is a reason they didn't marry for three years. Of course, James Barr may not be the Father and Barr may not be his surname..
Would love some help to point me in the right direction! :-\
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Hi, Welcome to Rootschat!
This is from the index at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk (Pay-per-View) site.
BARR JAMES
MCTIERNAN MARGARET
1919
691/ 2 Lasswade
It may be an idea to ask your relative for a copy of the above marriage cert. & take note of everything on it, ages, occupations, addresses, witnesses, where married, everything you can glean then try to find him in 1911?
Annie
Add, I don't think a marriage cert. would give where he was born unless his 'usual residence' was an address in Ireland?
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Welcome to RC from me too :)
Scottish marriage certs do not show places of birth for bride and groom (except for one year only, 1855). Maybe he gave an Irish address as his normal place of residence at the time of the marriage?
Would be worth while you rechecking the cert. Also, a check of his death registration may also help with further details.
Monica
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James and Margaret had a son, James Butler McTernan, who was born on 14th March 1915 in Edinburgh. Margaret registered his birth, so his birth certificate lists him as illegitimate.
I don't see a marriage for James Jnr. (with middle name Butler) on SP, do you have details of him, a marriage & what info. is on it regarding a/his father?
Does he give James Barr as his father, was James still alive?
Annie
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Hi, Welcome to Rootschat!
This is from the index at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk (Pay-per-View) site.
BARR JAMES
MCTIERNAN MARGARET
1919
691/ 2 Lasswade
It may be an idea to ask your relative for a copy of the above marriage cert. & take note of everything on it, ages, occupations, addresses, witnesses, where married, everything you can glean then try to find him in 1911?
Annie
Add, I don't think a marriage cert. would give where he was born unless his 'usual residence' was an address in Ireland?
Thank you Annie! I wondered if the surname McTernan was spelt correctly. I did search on that website, but it didn't come up. I have some credits, so will look again-thank you!
My brother said he saw the Marriage Certificate on-line but didn't bother to get a copy of it
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James and Margaret had a son, James Butler McTernan, who was born on 14th March 1915 in Edinburgh. Margaret registered his birth, so his birth certificate lists him as illegitimate.
I don't see a marriage for James Jnr. (with middle name Butler) on SP, do you have details of him, a marriage & what info. is on it regarding a/his father?
Does he give James Barr as his father, was James still alive?
Annie
Well, that's an interesting thing, as again, my brother states that my Grandfather James Butler McTernan, married Winifred May Kelly in September 1932 (Winifred was born 1st May 1912) but I don't have a Marriage Certificate, so I can't confirm his Father's name. He would be only 17 years old, if his birth date is correct...
I know from my Dad's sister ( daughter of James Butler McTernan) that her Grandad was a red-headed Irishman who died young.
I did find a James Barr in the 1911 Census, but I cant be sure he's the right one!
Thanks for your help.
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Hi, Welcome to Rootschat!
This is from the index at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk (Pay-per-View) site.
BARR JAMES
MCTIERNAN MARGARET
1919
691/ 2 Lasswade
It may be an idea to ask your relative for a copy of the above marriage cert. & take note of everything on it, ages, occupations, addresses, witnesses, where married, everything you can glean then try to find him in 1911?
Annie
Add, I don't think a marriage cert. would give where he was born unless his 'usual residence' was an address in Ireland?
Thank you Annie! I wondered if the surname McTernan was spelt correctly. I did search on that website, but it didn't come up. I have some credits, so will look again-thank you!
My brother said he saw the Marriage Certificate on-line but didn't bother to get a copy of it
I've just downloaded the Marriage Certificate! My bother had said 1918, so now I know they were married in 1919. The section for Father/Mother have a line crossed through and blank. The address is the same for both of them, Oak Villa, Edinburgh. Margaret is on the 2011 Census living at Oak Villa in Edinburgh, but no mention of James Barr then.
'In 1911 census they lived in Oakvilla, (Joseph – husband 62, Ann 45, Robert 25, Patrick 20, Margaret 13, Helen 8, Edward 3)
In 1915 Valuation rolls. Joseph ran a business from Foundry Lane
Margaret went off to work elsewhere as a servant (we suspect 32 Melville St, Edinburgh) when her little brother and sister were old enough. Margaret gave birth in 32 Melville St, possibly the big posh house now the Italian Embassy.
31st December 1918 Margaret McTiernan married James Barr
She (domestic servant, spinster) married a James Barr, a coalminer who also gives his address as Oak Villa. He is only 26 and Margaret 24, maybe he was a lodger? They both live in her family home Oak Villa, anyway. His family details are blank ie he does not know or say who his parents were. Margaret's stepbother Robert Hughes is a witness.
I am going to guess James Barr is possibly the father and Margaret married him after a bit of a family row as he was an unknown orphan and the Hughes were relatively well off. Note below that James Barr and Margaret married 3 years after James Butler was born. There is the possibility of incest given the McTernan name was kept for James Butler McTernan.
14th March 1915 James Butler McTernan born 32, Melville Street, Edinburgh'
So, still don't know where James Barr came from!
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There is the possibility of incest given the McTernan name was kept for James Butler McTernan.
What a very odd thing to assume.
It is more likely that he was illegitimate and, therefore, has been given his mother’s surname, which was common occurrence.
James was a very common name and it could, possibly, simply be a coincidence that the child and future husband have the same christian names.
James Butler died Surrey, England: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVZQ-GKW7
Winfred’s death: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVZ8-TXHQ
They married in England:
Sep 1932 Scarbro' 9d 949
McTERNAN James B
KELLY Winifred M
Jamjar
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There is the possibility of incest given the McTernan name was kept for James Butler McTernan.
What a very odd thing to assume.
It is more likely that he was illegitimate and, therefore, has been given his mother’s surname, which was common occurrence.
James was a very common name and it could, possibly, simply be a coincidence that that the child and future husband have the same christian names.
James Butler died Surrey, England: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVZQ-GKW7
Jamjar
Hi Jamjar,
Here is my brother's research:
'1896 Ann McTernan married Joseph Hughes foundryman /platemaker
Ann went on to have another 5 children, 3 of whom died as small kids. Total of 8 children.
They all lived as the Hughes family in “Oak Villa”, Edgefield Road, Loanhead. It had 3 rooms with more than 1 window.
In 1901 census they lived at Foundry Lane. (Joseph 50, Ann 45, Robert 16, James 15, Mary 3, Joseph 1, Margaret McTernan step daughter 6, Joseph 81). 4 rooms with more than 1 window.
Where is Patrick aged 10???
In 1911 census they lived in Oakvilla, (Joseph – husband 62, Ann 45, Robert 25, Patrick 20, Margaret 13, Helen 8, Edward 3)
In 1915 Valuation rolls. Joseph ran a business from Foundry Lane
Margaret went off to work elsewhere as a servant (we suspect 32 Melville St, Edinburgh) when her little brother and sister were old enough. Margaret gave birth in 32 Melville St, possibly the big posh house now the Italian Embassy.'
I'm guessing he assumes James Hughes from the 1901 Census is the culprit! But Margaret was a step-daughter, her Father having died and her Mother re-marrying. No mention of James in the 1911 Census, as I presume he had left home by then.
My assumption is that Margaret got pregnant whilst working as a Domestic Servant and she met James Barr after James Butler was born. Could be that the name Butler came from the birth Father?
It still doesn't help me trace James Barr, but I am looking at mining records for the Loanhead Colliery at the moment, to see if he's listed there.
Thank you for my Grandfathers death certificate information!
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I would presume James Butler McTernan may well have been the son of another man (possibly Mr Butler), and kept the McTernan name as he wasn't actually the son of James Barr. If she was working in domestic service, she was likely dismissed when she had the child and returned home, meeting James Barr later.
When/where did James Barr die? I wonder if that's the source for him being born Ireland?
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I would presume James Butler McTernan may well have been the son of another man (possibly Mr Butler), and kept the McTernan name as he wasn't actually the son of James Barr. If she was working in domestic service, she was likely dismissed when she had the child and returned home, meeting James Barr later.
When/where did James Barr die? I wonder if that's the source for him being born Ireland?
Hi Jorose,
I was thinking the same! After looking at similar name changes on records, lots of Mothers kept their own surname going as a middle name for their child. I was also wondering if it was the Butler who was the Dad!! You never know...
They married outside Edinburgh, possibly in James Barr's Parish. I'm intrigued that Margaret could marry in a Catholic Church having had a child out of Wedlock, but that also might explain the distance from her stated home at Oak Villa in Edinburgh. My twin sister happens to live in Edinburgh, so is going to drive out to see the address and find St Margarets R.C. Church. I've also asked her to find the Parish Records, as I think they are more detailed-or they were when I got married! Of course they then had to do a Civil Registration, which is the document I have now.
I don't have a death certificate for James Barr, but my Dad's sister recently told me her Grandad was a red-headed Irishman who died young. Since I'm not sure how old he was when he married, I'm going to work backwards from her age to a date when she was 10 or under, as both her and my Dad cant remember him. Do you have any other tips for finding him?
Thanks!
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I see JJ gave the marriage info. for James B.
What is the age & occ. of James Barr on his marriage & who were the witnesses?
Annie
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Death for Margaret McTeirnan or Barr (SP)
BARR MARGARET 69
1966
685/4 10 St Giles
The death will state whether she was a widow or married which will give you a window for James' death.
Annie
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Death for Margaret McTeirnan or Barr (SP)
BARR MARGARET 69
1966
685/4 10 St Giles
The death will state whether she was a widow or married which will give you a window for James' death.
Annie
Thanks Annie,
Where is that record located?
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I see JJ gave the marriage info. for James B.
What is the age & occ. of James Barr on his marriage & who were the witnesses?
Annie
Annie,
I tried to attach the certificate PDF I have, but didn't work! Maybe the file is too big. There is no age for either of them. Margaret has her Mother and Step-Father as Witnesses, but James has only one name and it looks like it could potentially be a Clerk or the Priest who conducted their Wedding.
If I can figure out how to make the PDF file smaller, I'll post it later.
Thanks!
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Death for Margaret McTeirnan or Barr (SP)
BARR MARGARET 69
1966
685/4 10 St Giles
Where is that record located?
Sorry (SP) www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
When I download certs. from SP, I always use jpeg as I find pdf hard to work with for all sorts of reasons such as cropping etc.
Annie
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Helping out with the image attachment.
Below is a clip from James Barr's RC marriage to Margaret on 31 Dec 1918. Witnesses a Robert and Mary Hughes.
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Thanks Monica :D
So aged 26 b c 1892 & from the info. earlier of him dying young this may be him?
(SP Index)
BARR JAMES 29
1922
685/5 355 George Square (Edinburgh)
Annie
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Death for Margaret McTeirnan or Barr (SP)
BARR MARGARET 69
1966
685/4 10 St Giles
Thanks-I should have guessed it was that!
Where is that record located?
Sorry (SP) www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
When I download certs. from SP, I always use jpeg as I find pdf hard to work with for all sorts of reasons such as cropping etc.
Annie
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Thanks Monica :D
So aged 26 b c 1892 & from the info. earlier of him dying young this may be him?
(SP Index)
BARR JAMES 29
1922
685/5 355 George Square (Edinburgh)
Annie
Annie,
I got very excited, as this James Barr died from a result of an injury sustained as a coal miner! But sadly, after I'd seen the document, he is listed as married to someone else!
I don't suppose he divorced and remarried in a short space of time...
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Sorry this was not the correct James.
I didn't see anything for Lasswade (where they married).
Does your aunt know roughly how old 'young' was?
The next youngest (using his c birth yr) is;
BARR JAMES 55
1947
685/6 715 Newington
Annie
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BARR JAMES 29
1922
685/5 355 George Square (Edinburgh)
Annie,
I got very excited, as this James Barr died from a result of an injury sustained as a coal miner! But sadly, after I'd seen the document, he is listed as married to someone else!
I don't suppose he divorced and remarried in a short space of time...
Actually,
Who was the informant & was his wife's name given as Margaret with a different surname as the informant may have got her surname wrong...just a thought?
Annie
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I found a James Barr with age a bit out (not unusual), only 1 in the Lothian Districts
1911
BARR JAMES 16 (b c1895)
692/1 17/ 14
Leith North, Midlothian
Annie
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The James on the 1911 is with a family
Hugh 57
Christine 53
James 16
Jane 9
Annie
Add, same family 1901 (Jane not yet born)
BARR HUGH 42
692/1 12/A 59 Leith North, Midlothian
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WB, you are familiar with the valuation rolls from what you have mentioned.
Just looking at the elector rolls for 1914-15 and the valuation rolls. Owner and tenants at 32 Melville Street show as:
George Macallan - Proprietor Occupier of both 32 and 34 Melville Street (he shows as a Hotel Keeper)
Andrew Cavaye - Tenant Occupier, a Cask Maker
Claude Niven Marshall - Joint Tenant Occupier, a stockbroker (from Electoral Rolls)
It is interesting that your g grandfather was born at this address that potentially mother Margaret worked at. As has been mentioned, you would have thought her employers would have sent her elsewhere for the birth.
Monica
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As Annie has mentioned, in respect of Margaret McTiernan, I can only see the two surnames for her death reg in 1966. Are we right to think she did not remarry after the death of James?
Did James and Margaret have children after they married on 31 Dec 1918?
Do you know any of the addresses/areas that James and Margaret (and your grandfather James B) lived in post marriage?
Monica
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BARR JAMES 29
1922
685/5 355 George Square (Edinburgh)
Annie,
I got very excited, as this James Barr died from a result of an injury sustained as a coal miner! But sadly, after I'd seen the document, he is listed as married to someone else!
I don't suppose he divorced and remarried in a short space of time...
Actually,
Who was the informant & was his wife's name given as Margaret with a different surname as the informant may have got her surname wrong...just a thought?
Annie
Informant was John Barr, Father, but wife is Annie Smith, so no confusion there.
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As Annie has mentioned, in respect of Margaret McTiernan, I can only see the two surnames for her death reg in 1966. Are we right to think she did not remarry after the death of James?
Did James and Margaret have children after they married on 31 Dec 1918?
Do you know any of the addresses/areas that James and Margaret (and your grandfather James B) lived in post marriage?
Monica
I don't know if she re-married or not. I'm not sure how 'young' he died-could have been industry death in coal mining, WW1, or illness.
I don't believe they had any children after they were married, none that anyone in the family have mentioned.
I don't know any of the addresses/areas, except that my Grandfather must have met my Grandmother in his teens as he was only 17 when they married. My Maternal Grandmother was born in Hartlepool. I'm not sure what my Grandfather would have done as an occupation so young, but he was in the Army in WW2 and then the Fire Service for the rest of his life.
Bit of a riddle!
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The James on the 1911 is with a family
Hugh 57
Christine 53
James 16
Jane 9
Annie
Add, same family 1901 (Jane not yet born)
BARR HUGH 42
692/1 12/A 59 Leith North, Midlothian
My brother searched both Census and found Margaret living with her Step-Father and her Mother, so at least I now where Margaret was before she married:
'Ann went on to have another 5 children, 3 of whom died as small kids. Total of 8 children.
They all lived as the Hughes family in “Oak Villa”, Edgefield Road, Loanhead. It had 3 rooms with more than 1 window.
In 1901 census they lived at Foundry Lane. (Joseph 50, Ann 45, Robert 16, James 15, Mary 3, Joseph 1, Margaret McTernan step daughter 6, Joseph 81). 4 rooms with more than 1 window.
Where is Patrick aged 10???
In 1911 census they lived in Oakvilla, (Joseph – husband 62, Ann 45, Robert 25, Patrick 20, Margaret 13, Helen 8, Edward 3)
In 1915 Valuation rolls. Joseph ran a business from Foundry Lane'
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WB,
I meant to ask if you'd noticed whether there was a 'Correction' (RCE) entry on James Butlers' birth?
Annie
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WB, you are familiar with the valuation rolls from what you have mentioned.
Just looking at the elector rolls for 1914-15 and the valuation rolls. Owner and tenants at 32 Melville Street show as:
George Macallan - Proprietor Occupier of both 32 and 34 Melville Street (he shows as a Hotel Keeper)
Andrew Cavaye - Tenant Occupier, a Cask Maker
Claude Niven Marshall - Joint Tenant Occupier, a stockbroker (from Electoral Rolls)
It is interesting that your g grandfather was born at this address that potentially mother Margaret worked at. As has been mentioned, you would have thought her employers would have sent her elsewhere for the birth.
Monica
Monica,
I also found that odd, that Margaret would give birth at the address she worked at as a Domestic Servant, and not be dismissed or sent elsewhere. But then three years later is at Oak Villa according to her Marriage Certificate, presumably with her parents, James McTernan and Anne McTernan.