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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: joger on Sunday 09 December 18 09:27 GMT (UK)
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Hello, who can help me find anything concerning Henry , father of Sidney MURREY (as written on the birth certificate but written MURRAY later)(born 9 may 1895 sub district Camden Town , registration district Pancras , father Henry Murrey , carpenter , mother Harriet formely Hyde).
In 1901 Sidney is a visitor at Thomas J Voller , Sidney fought in the british army during WW1, was wounded ,married in France in 1920, he went to and fro from England to France and some of his children were born in France some were in England.
I found trace of Harriet's parents etc.. but nothing about his father.
Could someone help?
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You haven’t told us anything of what you’ve discovered about Harriet. Was she lawfully married to Henry? What happened to her after Sidney’s birth?
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There's an RAF service record for Sidney Murray (129192) which shows next of kin as his foster father James Voller.
Sidney joined the army 29 December 1914, transferred to the RFC 18 January 1918 and subsequently the RAF on 1 April 1918. Discharged to reserve 20 February 1919.
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You haven’t told us anything of what you’ve discovered about Harriet. Was she lawfully married to Henry? What happened to her after Sidney’s birth?
Well, she is said "formely Hyde "on Sidney's birth certificate but I did not find the marriage.
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There's an RAF service record for Sidney Murray (129192) which shows next of kin as his foster father James Voller.
Sidney joined the army 29 December 1914, transferred to the RFC 18 January 1918 and subsequently the RAF on 1 April 1918. Discharged to reserve 20 February 1919.
Oh , this would mean that his parents were both dead ? Is it possible to find evidence of adoption ?
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You must know something about Harriet, if you have found her parents?
Formal adoption (as we know it) was not introduced until 1 January 1927, too late for Sidney’s childhood.
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You must know something about Harriet, if you have found her parents?
Formal adoption (as we know it) was not introduced until 1 January 1927, too late for Sidney’s childhood.
The person I help searching gave me Mary Ann Hyde (widow of Charles Hyde)and John Rowland , grand -parents of Eva , supposed sister of Sidney .They had a daughter Harriet born 1842 or 1843.
But now I think it is unprobable since this would mean that she was over 50 when she gave birth to Sidney.
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That Harriet Hyde was born 10 November 1842 according to her baptism record, and I agree it is highly unlikely she was having babies in the 1890s.
Eva Murray, mmn Hyde, birth reg Jun qtr 1891 Pancras 1b 22 - have her parents been identified? She seems to be Mary Ann Rowland’s great-granddaughter.
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That Harriet Hyde was born 10 November 1842 according to her baptism record, and I agree it is highly unlikely she was having babies in the 1890s.
Eva Murray, mmn Hyde, birth reg Jun qtr 1891 Pancras 1b 22 - have her parents been identified? She seems to be Mary Ann Rowland’s great-granddaughter.
Well , no. I suggest to Sidney's descendant to order Eva's certificate in order to know if her parents were Henry Murrey and Harriet Hyde.
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There's an RAF service record for Sidney Murray (129192) which shows next of kin as his foster father James Voller.
Sidney joined the army 29 December 1914, transferred to the RFC 18 January 1918 and subsequently the RAF on 1 April 1918. Discharged to reserve 20 February 1919.
Thank you ShaunJ. No hint about Sidney being wounded at war?
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That Harriet Hyde was born 10 November 1842 according to her baptism record, and I agree it is highly unlikely she was having babies in the 1890s.
Eva Murray, mmn Hyde, birth reg Jun qtr 1891 Pancras 1b 22 - have her parents been identified? She seems to be Mary Ann Rowland’s great-granddaughter.
Well , no. I suggest to Sidney's descendant to order Eva's certificate in order to know if her parents were Henry Murrey and Harriet Hyde.
Sounds like a plan. Eva is potentially important because she was born very close to the 1891 census date - her birth certificate details may help you find her parent(s) in that census.
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Thank you ShaunJ. No hint about Sidney being wounded at war?
GSW (gunshot wound) to elbow and chest. Probably in early 1917.
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This may be of interest in the 1891 census:
106 Stanhope St, St Pancras
Harriet Murray Mar 22 b London
Gertrude Murray 10mo b London
Possible birth reg for the baby: Augusta Gertrude Murray, no mmn, Sep qtr 1890 Pancras 1b 98.
Possible school record in Marylebone November 1901 (for Gertrude Murray) gives birthdate as 10 June 1890 and parent/guardian as a “Mrs Mitchell” of 27 Queen St.
Unfortunately neither Gertrude nor anybody named Mitchell appears at 27 Queen St in the 1901 census: RG13/147/97/43.
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There's also Herbert Murray mmn Hyde birth registered in Marylebone in 3Q 1898 (1a 577)
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Eva Murray is with grandparents John and Mary Ann Rowland in Fleet, Hampshire in the 1901 census.
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Possible neighbourly clue in the 1871 census (Knox Rd, Battersea) ref RG10/702/129/43.
13 Knox Rd: the Rowlands, with Mary Ann’s daughter Augusta Hyde
15 Knox Rd: Robert & Harriet Murray plus William 4 b Brompton and Harriet 2 b Battersea**.
**Harriet Emily Murray, mmn Hyde, birth reg Mar qtr 1869 Wandsworth.
I suggest Robert’s wife Harriet is Mary Ann Rowland’s daughter, and her daughter Harriet Murray may be the mother of the 1890s illegitimate children (citing her own mother’s maiden name Hyde, other than on Augusta Gertrude’s birth registration where no mmn is given).
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I think AVM228 may have cracked this one. So "Henry Murrey" is probably an invented name.
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This may be of interest in the 1891 census:
106 Stanhope St, St Pancras
Harriet Murray Mar 22 b London
Gertrude Murray 10mo b London
Possible birth reg for the baby: Augusta Gertrude Murray, no mmn, Sep qtr 1890 Pancras 1b 98.
Possible school record in Marylebone November 1901 (for Gertrude Murray) gives birthdate as 10 June 1890 and parent/guardian as a “Mrs Mitchell” of 27 Queen St.
I think Augusta Gertrude is a sister of Sidney ( parents died, Sidney is living at James Voller 's in Census 1901, James is said to be his foster parent in the service records. So her mother Harriet Murray née Hyde,22 in 1891 was born 1869 or so.
Am I wrong?
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See reply #15.
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There was a Harriet Murray born 27 January 1869, father Robt, admitted to Mantua Street School on 19 February 1877. Address 118 Lavender Road; previously at "Plough Lane private".
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A possible death: Harriet Murray aged 33, Jun qtr 1902 St Marylebone 1a 338.
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Possible neighbourly clue in the 1871 census (Knox Rd, Battersea) ref RG10/702/129/43.
13 Knox Rd: the Rowlands, with Mary Ann’s daughter Augusta Hyde
15 Knox Rd: Robert & Harriet Murray plus William 4 b Brompton and Harriet 2 b Battersea**.
**Harriet Emily Murray, mmn Hyde, birth reg Mar qtr 1869 Wandsworth.
I suggest Robert’s wife Harriet is Mary Ann Rowland’s daughter, and her daughter Harriet Murray may be the mother of the 1890s illegitimate children (citing her own mother’s maiden name Hyde, other than on Augusta Gertrude’s birth registration where no mmn is given).
I rather think Robert or Henry being a middle name
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I think AVM228 may have cracked this one. So "Henry Murrey" is probably an invented name.
Sorry , I made a mistake , too quick.
I rather think Robert or Henry being a middlename , or a mistake in
census or is it possible that a registrar made a mistake in 1936 ( year of the editing of the birth certificate ).
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I don’t follow what you are saying about middle names, sorry.
Robert Murray, who married Mary Ann Rowland’s daughter Harriet Hyde*, was the father of Harriet b 1869, so (one hopes) not also the father of her children!
*(Robert and Harriet snr may not in fact have been lawfully married - not found a marriage for them).
My suggestion is that Harriet Murray b 1869 may have been the unwed mother of possibly four children (Augusta Gertrude 1890, Eva 1891, Sidney 1895 and Herbert 1898) and for the latter three registrations she invented a husband (“Henry” on Sidney’s registration) and a maiden name (“Hyde”, which was in fact her mother’s maiden name) for the sake of respectability. She may have died unmarried in 1902. The children seem to have been dispersed early on.
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Yes , you are right , I mixed up Robert and Henry .
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There's also Herbert Murray mmn Hyde birth registered in Marylebone in 3Q 1898 (1a 577)
Herbert may have died in infancy (Herbert Murray aged 1, Sep qtr 1899 Pancras 1b 112).
Possibly buried 29 August 1899 Camden, per free index at www.deceasedonline.com.
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Is it possible to find baptismes for Harriet's children?
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I haven't found any baptisms. She may not have had them baptised.
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Thank you for your help, very much appreciated.
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I think AVM228 may have cracked this one. So "Henry Murrey" is probably an invented name.
Well, could be, now the descendants say there is a story going in the family : the real name of Sidney's father was Sigmund DANIELS, who"bought" the name Henry MURREY ( MURRAY). He worked in the diamond business and was often in Singapore where he might have died.
Could there be a deed poll enrolled?
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Eva Murray's birth certificate says :born 12 May 1891 106 Stanhope Street , mother Harriet Murray formely Hyde , father Sigmun MURRAY , mercantile traveller jeweller , informant ? Sampson .
What does reeally mean "mercantile traveller jeweller" ?
Waiting for Augusta Gertrude's and Herbert's birth certificates .
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Mercantile traveller will mean much the same as commercial traveller. He would have been buying and/or selling jewellery/gems/precious metals on his travels. What this doesn’t tell you is whether he was a big player in the market (travelling to e.g. centres of diamond production and buying wholesale to bring stock into the UK market) or a small-scale merchant.
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Yes , I agree. Finding his death in Singapore ( his descendants think he may have died in Singapore) could help.
Still no Sigmun DANIELS, the father is said to be S. Murray.
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You’ll have seen that Eva’s birthplace, 106 Stanhope St, is the same address where Harriet Murray was found in the 1891 census with 10mo baby Gertrude (see reply #12). The babies seem to have been only about 11 months apart in age.
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Yes I noticed.
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I recall that there are good archived newspapers covering Singapore available free online. Look for the Straits Times and the Singapore Free Press and Mercantile Advertiser.
http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/
If I were you I would also be pressing relatives for every snippet of information they have about Sigmun(d) and his Singaporean connections, what evidence they have of his death there, etc :)
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“A. Sampson” of Fleet, present at the birth and who registered the birth, is Harriet’s sister Augusta. As the widowed Augusta Sampson, she is with John and Mary A Rowland in Fleet in the 1891 census.
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Augusta Gertrude's birth certificate , no father 's name mentionned , 29 Kentish Town Rd as place of birth and residence of Harriet, as for Sidney's birth in 1895, Harriet is a domestic servant
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Harriet's death 1902
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If she was really married and if the child was the child of her husband , it means that he was alive 9 months earlier.
The descendant of Sidney ordered the birth certificate of the child called Herbert born 1898 but the GRO paid him back saying they can't send him the certificate , what do you think ? I suggest that he made a mistake in the order form.
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He did make a mistake .
Trying to find if the parents of Harriet ( Sidney's mother) were married (in order to understand what was her maiden name) , I found no marriage Murray x Harriet Hyde but found this (what do you think?)
(I searched only with the forenames , from 1860 to 1869 in London)
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He did make a mistake .
Trying to find if the parents of Harriet ( Sidney's mother) were married (in order to understand what was her maiden name) , I found no marriage Murray x Harriet Hyde but found this (what do you think?)
Looks good actually. The witnesses were John and Mary Ann ROWLAND - her mother and stepfather.
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Thanks a lot. Idon't have a sub. but I'll manage.
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St Peter’s, Pimlico
2 April 1865
Robert David McMurray full age bach carpenter of Caroline St. Father: Robert David McMurray, servant.
Harriet Hyde full age spinster of Westbourne St. Father: Charles John Hyde, plumber.
Witnesses: John Rowland; Mary Ann Rowland.
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Children:
Harriet Murray, mmn Hyde, Mar qtr 1866 St George Hanover Square (d Dec qtr 1867 Wandsworth aged 1)
William Charles Murray, mmn Hyde, Mar qtr 1867 Kensington
Harriet Emily Murray, mmn Hyde, Mar qtr 1869 Wandsworth <<<
Robert Murray, mmn Hyde, Sep qtr 1871 Wandsworth
Annie Augusta Murray, mmn Hyde, Jun qtr 1874 Wandsworth
Charles Murray, mmn Hyde, Jun qtr 1876 Wandsworth
Richard Murray, mmn Hyde, Mar qtr 1879 Wandsworth
Edward Albert Murray, mmn Hyde, Jun qtr 1882 Wandsworth
Louisa Murray, mmn Hyde, Dec qtr 1884 Wandsworth (died same quarter, as did mum Harriett aged 40)
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St Peter’s, Pimlico
2 April 1865
Robert David McMurray full age bach carpenter of Caroline St. Father: Robert David McMurray, servant.
Harriet Hyde full age spinster of Westbourne St. Father: Charles John Hyde, plumber.
Witnesses: John Rowland; Mary Ann Rowland.
YES! you found Harriet's parents! Fantastic!
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Children:
Harriet Murray, mmn Hyde, Mar qtr 1866 St George Hanover Square (d Dec qtr 1867 Wandsworth aged 1)
William Charles Murray, mmn Hyde, Mar qtr 1867 Kensington
Harriet Emily Murray, mmn Hyde, Mar qtr 1869 Wandsworth <<<
Robert Murray, mmn Hyde, Sep qtr 1871 Wandsworth
Annie Augusta Murray, mmn Hyde, Jun qtr 1874 Wandsworth
Charles Murray, mmn Hyde, Jun qtr 1876 Wandsworth
Richard Murray, mmn Hyde, Mar qtr 1879 Wandsworth
Edward Albert Murray, mmn Hyde, Jun qtr 1882 Wandsworth
Louisa Murray, mmn Hyde, Dec qtr 1884 Wandsworth
Sidney's mother is Harriet Emily ! I say it again : you are fantastic.
Thank you very , very much .I wish i could stick a dancing emogi. :D :D :D
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Link to related topic
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=856869.msg7253815
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There's an RAF service record for Sidney Murray (129192) which shows next of kin as his foster father James Voller.
Sidney joined the army 29 December 1914, transferred to the RFC 18 January 1918 and subsequently the RAF on 1 April 1918. Discharged to reserve 20 February 1919.
Hello, do you know how I can find this record ?
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The RAF service record is on FindMyPast: https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FAIR79%2F1157%2F00190&parentid=GBM%2FAIR79%2F397089
and also on Fold 3:
https://www.fold3.com/image/614876322?xid=1022
The address given is 11 Elthorne Avenue, Hanwell. There was a Thomas James Voller at that address in the electoral rolls.
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Thanks a lot I managed to find it :)