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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Warwickshire => Topic started by: LouiseB31 on Friday 12 August 05 15:17 BST (UK)
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Dear All
My GGGGrandfather, William Wilson was born the son of Avica Wilson and Stephen Masters in Harbury, Warwickshire. Stephen lived in Staverton in the neighbouring county of Northamptonshire.
William was born 15 February 1826 and was christened in Harbury, Warwickshire 7 March 1828.
His parents were not married and a bastardy bond was served on Stephen ensuring that the "good people" of Harbury did not have to pay for the birth or care for the mother and baby in the early months.
I have traced Stephen's family, he was reasonably easy to find - him and his wife and children, I bet his wife never knew anything about his philanderings, I dont think she would have called her own son William too if she had! But I digress...
Avica is a complete mystery.
There is no record of her in the local parish registers and her name does not appear on the IGI anywhere in the county so far as I can see. Mind you, thinking about it, I had thought her name was spelt Evica with an E so I might not have gone back to the IGI. Pretty sure I have though.
I have never even heard of anyone called Avica. If you have ever come across Avica or anyone with a similar name, do please let me know. It sounds like a gypsy name to me, or am I being overly romantic?
I wish I knew more about this mysterious woman
Regards
Louise
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There are three on the 1861 census.
1861 England Census
Avica H Strood abt 1843 Dover, Kent, England Daughter Dover St Mary Kent
Avica Taylor abt 1853 Ashurst, Kent, England Daughter Thatcham Berkshire
Avica Taylor abt 1832 Mayfield, Sussex, England Head Mayfield Sussex
Rita.
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There is one in the 1851 census
Brown Avica born 1804 Devon Head Okehampton Dev
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There are rather more with the name Avice (would this be pronounced the same?)
For example, there is an Avice BEACH, wife of Thomas, she born 1800 in Alvechurch Worcestershire and living in 1861 in Solihull.
She is the only one of about the right age to have given birth in 1826, still living in that area. Can't find a suitable marriage or death for Avica/e Wilson on freebmd.
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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William's birth in 1828 in the IGI (that should read christening) shows his mother as Evica WILLSON.
A search of that Harbury batch shows two other births with mother Evica (none for Avica - and none for Avice though, in my experience Avice is pronounced Avis):
Henry Thomas FINCH, bap 13 Apr 1834, Harbury, parents John FINCH and Evica
John FINCH, bap 15 May 1836, Harbury, parents John FINCH and Evica
Searching that batch for just father John FINCH also produces the following:
Hannah FINCH, bap 7 Apr 1839, Harbury, parents John FINCH and Abitha
Eliza. FINCH, bap 26 Dec 1841, d 17 Apr 1844, Harbury, parents John FINCH and Abitha
And then a search for a marriage between a John FINCH and a WILSON finds:
John FINCH m Avies WILSON, 1 Oct 1832, Coventry Warwickshire.
Hope this helps!
JAP
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Henry Thos FINCH (age 27 ie born ca 1834, born Harbury) can be found with wife and family in Harbury in the 1861 census - he's a Farm Labourer and Primitive Methodist Preacher.
And John FINCH jnr (age 25 ie born ca 1836, born Harbury) is a groom/domestic servant in Wellington, Hadley Shropshire.
I don't see John snr or the mysterious Evica/Abitha/Avies in 1861 :D
JAP
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1851 census HO 107 2077 folio 95
Harbury Southam
John Finch head married 50 Farm Labourer Honingham Warwickshire
Mary Finch Wife Married 49 Fifefield Oxfordshire
Thomas Finch Son 17 Farm Labourer Harbury
John Finch Son 15 Farm Labourer Harbury
Hannah Finch Daughter 12 Home Harbury Warwickshire
The National burial index covers Harbury but no burial of a Finch other than Eliza (coverage is Harbury All Saints until 1852 but Harbury Wesleyan only to 1848).
John and Mary continue on in the censuses until 1881. John's death is registered in 1890.
Regards
Valda
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In the light of Valda's 1851 census information, I've done some more checking.
So I'll correct my earlier post - John FINCH, b ca 1836 Harbury, the groom/domestic servant in Shropshire in 1861 is almost certainly NOT John the son of John and Avica/Evica/Abitha/Avies but is John the son of John and Mary.
1871 - John FINCH b Harbury (transcribed as Harbery) ca 1836, a coachman, is in Stoke Prior with wife Eliza 28 and daughter Sarah 7.
1881 - John FINCH b Harbury ca 1838, a coachman, is in Birmingham with wife Eliza 35, daughter Sarah 18, son Henry J 8, daughter Sophia 6
1891 - John FINCH b Harbury ca 1836, a gardener, is in Birmingham with wife Eliza 49, son Henry J 18, daughter Sophia F 17, son Frank H 6, and widowed mother Mary 90 b Oxfordshire Fifefield
JAP
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Finch, Mary
Deaths
92
Quarter: March
Year: 1893
District: Birmingham
County: Warwickshire
Volume: 6d
Page: 23
I think requesting a search in Harbury for Finches on the 1841 census might clinch it one way or the other.
Regards
Valda
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That is a good idea. Let's hope Avica/Evica/Abitha/Avies is to be found there. And perhaps William WILLSON or MASTERS (who was b 1826, bap 1828)?
There appear to be at least three John FINCH families with children born Harbury around the relevant time.
1. John FINCH and 'Avica' (a John FINCH m Avies WILSON 1832 Coventry)
Known children from IGI - Henry Thomas bap 1834 (mother Evica), John bap 1836 (mother Evica), Hannah bap 1839 (mother Abitha), Eliza. bap Dec 1841 (mother Abitha)
2. John FINCH and Mary (Mary being from Fifefield, Oxfordshire)
Known children from censuses (not found in the IGI apart from an LDS submission for Thomas) - Thomas ca 1834, John ca 1836, Hannah ca 1839
3. John FINCH and Hannah (a John FINCH m Hannah JEACOCK 1818 Harbury)
Known children from IGI - Ann bap 1818, Mary bap Apr 1822, Samuel bap Jun 1822, William bap and died 1826. (Two children bap at different times in 1822 seems strange.)
John FINCH and 'Avica', and John FINCH and Mary (IF they are two different couples) certainly confused the issue by having children at the same time and with the same or similar names.
Unfortunately, as far as I can see, we don't seem to have John and 'Avica's' Henry Thomas, and John and Mary's Thomas, both appearing in a census at the same time - similarly for the (seeming) two Johns and the (seeming) two Hannahs. Which certainly raises doubts.
Incidentally, I see that 'Avica' has been transcribed as Avis on the Warwickshire site at
http://www.hunimex.net/warwick
in the List of Illegitimacy Orders.
JAP
This post has been amended as I made an error
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1851
HO 107 2077 folio 95 Harbury Southam
In the household of his parents, John and Mary
Thomas FINCH Son 17 Farm Labourer Harbury
1859
FINCH Anne Maria, Birth, Mar qtr 1859, Southam
1861
RG9/2241, ED 8, Folio 103, Page 9 - Southam, Harbury, Pound Street
All born Harbury
FINCH Henry Thos, Head, 27, Farm Labourer & Primitive Methodist Local Preacher
Do Emma, Wife, 24
Do Emma Eliza, Dau, 6, Scholar
Do Eling (transcribed as Eliza) E, Dau, 4, Scholar
Do Anne Maria, Dau, 2, Scholar
1871
RG10/3218, ED 6, Folio 65, Page 4 - Southam, Harbury, Pound Street
All FINCHs born Harbury
FINCH Thomas, Head, 37 (transcribed as 27), Farm Labourer
Do Emma, Wife, 33
Do Ellen, Daughter, 14, Scholar
Do Anne, do, 12, do
Do Clara, do, 9, do
Do Sarah, do, 6, do
Do Caroline, do, 3, do
HOLTHAM Thomas, Lodger - Wife's Father (transcribed as Mother), Widower, 78, Labourer, b Warwickshire Shotswell
1871
FINCH Harriet Hannah, Birth, Jun qtr 1871, Southam
1874
FINCH Annie Maria, Death, 15, Dec qtr 1874, Southam
1875
FINCH Henry Thomas, Birth, Jun qtr 1875, Southam
1879
FINCH Thomas Henry, Death, 45, Mar qtr 1879, Southam
1881
RG11/3114, ED 8, Folio 90, Page 15 - Southam, Harbury, South Side
All born Harbury
FINCH Emma, Head, Widow, 44, Chair Woman
Do Sarah Ann, Daur, 18, General Servant
Do Harriet, Daur, 9, Scholar
Do Henry, Son, 6, Scholar
1881
FINCH Sarah Ann, Death, 18, Jun qtr 1881, Southam
1890
FINCH Harriet Hannah, Marriage, Jun qtr 1890, Southam. Males on page are John Edwin HONE and Frederick SMITH.
1891
RG12/2448, ED1, Folio 34, Page 4 - Binley
At The Oak Farm, in the household of farmer Joseph HANDLEY:
Hy. Thos. FINCH, Ser., S, 18, ,Cowman, Employed, Harbury, Warwickshire, ,
The above is from:
http://www.hunimex.net/warwick
On another site it has been transcribed as Hy Theo LINCH and the relationship 'F Ser' has been transcribed as Father Servant ...
The BDMs included above may be relevant - there are others which may also be relevant.
JAP
This post has been amended as I made an error
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And just a little more.
From the IGI
Hannah FINCH m Edward JAKEMAN in Harbury, 1858
1891 census
RG12/1179, ED 10, Folio 157, Page 13 - Swerford, Oxfordshire
JAKEMAN Edward, Head, 58, Carrier, b Swerford
Do Hannah, Wife, 52, Assistant Carrier, b Warwickshire Harbury
Do Frank E., Nephew, 19, Assistant Carrier, b Swerford
GOFF Flora, Servant, 13, b Swerford
I note that Swerford is in the same registration district (Chipping Norton) as Mary's birthplace Fifield (though they are quite a fair distance apart) ...
JAP
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The William Wilson I have in Harbury in 1851 is
HO 107 2077 folio 102
William Wilson Head Married 25 Rail Labourer Harbury
Caroline Wilson Wife 25 Harbury
Daniel Wilson Son 6 Harbury
Mary A. Wilson Daughter 4 Harbury
Elizabeth Wilson Daughter 1 Harbury
Regards
Valda
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This is a thought from left field and may well have no substance whatsoever. But it has been occurring to me for a while (and no doubt to others) that 'Avica' may have become Mary. And I've wondered whether it might have had anything to do with the Primitive Methodists - noting that Henry Thomas was a Primitive Methodist Local Preacher in 1861.
Here's a hypothesis -
Sometime between 1841 (Eliza's baptism with mother Abitha) and 1851 (when we see Mary in the census provided by Valda), the family became Primitive Methodists. Perhaps 'Avica' had not been baptized previously (or was re-baptized though I think that was not recommended by the PMs) and, on her baptism, took a less exotic name which was more in keeping with her conversion to a down-to-earth belief? I've Googled and can't find anything to support this hypothesis but who knows.
It would certainly be interesting to see if there are any clues as to where 'Avica' (Avies) came from in the OPR of the 1832 Coventry marriage.
And, of course, all of the above may well be a total furphy.
After all, if 'Avica' came from outwith Harbury, surely the "good people" of Harbury would have been trying to foist her and William back onto her original parish?
JAP
PS: I have (my children's forebears) David Osborne and Ruth Ann Dalton (daughter of John Dalton and Rizpah Siddle) who married in the Primitive Methodist Parsonage in Castlemaine, Victoria. Rizpah sounds exotic but is a biblical name - and one wonders how anyone could give such a tragic name to a little baby girl.
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I had wondered about a name change which is why I suggested the search in the Harbury 1841 census. However according to my Phillimore Atlas and Index of Parish registers Fifield is on the IGI for the period and no wilson baptisms are showing.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda, Yes, I twigged the way you were thinking - and thought I'd found Henry Thomas in 1851 (excitement!) but then found (disillusionment!) that I was actually looking at 1891 :'( I'd thought I was looking at one of the umpteen 1851 extracts on the hunimex site but only later found I wasn't - ergo my comments in blue (I mention this in case anyone saw my before and after versions). Though I have to admit that I didn't go through all the 1851 extracts on the hunimex site. But the children really don't seem to appear together in censuses which supports the idea that it is just one family. However, as you said, 1841 should be the clincher.
And yes, I trawled through Fifield for WILSON and/or Mary and/or any version of 'Avica'. Perhaps Louise's romantic thoughts about the exotic name are right - perhaps the mysterious 'Avica' really was a traveller/gypsy! I'm hoping that Louise will look at some Parish Registers and/or get some certificates which might reveal all! JAP
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Wow
I feel like the lucky recipient of an August challenge!
You have been working so hard all weekend while I was blissfully unaware.
Thank you so much for this.
It seems to me highly probable that Avica changed her name to Mary if it had to be changed to something. I would think Avica has something in common with Mary, perhaps in the latin, I am thinking of Ave Maria - does it mean Hail?
I am going to have to print all this out and scrutinise it and try and work out who is who from your mountain of delicious information. Then I am going to have to order some certificates, once I have worked out which ones will help.
My father wondered if Avica might have been from Staverton where the baby's father was from, and that she was banished to Harbury in shame, that she might therefore have been from Northants hence my failure to find her in Warwickshire. However, as one of you pointed out, why would the parish fathers in Harbury take on the burden when they could send her home?
I have never come across any Finches in my family tree before, it is quite exciting, and to think William had not only the three brothers he probably never met on his father's side but another shovel full on his mother's side.
How fabulous to discover all this new family.
I shall be back when I have sorted it all out
Regards
Louise
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The 1841 census for Harbury is online, which is rather fortunate.
http://www.hunimex.com/warwick/freecens/1841/41135b.html
Transcript of Piece HO107/1135
1 Hough's Lane, Harbury
John Finch,40, Ag Lab,WAR
Mary Finch, 35, WAR
Thomas Finch, 7,WAR
John Finch, 5, WAR
Hannah Finch, 2, WAR
Note it says they were all born in Warwickshire which we already know is not true, so either it is poorly transcribed or poorly written.
There are no other Finches at all.
There is no-one whose name begins with Av or Ev.
There is no William Wilson but there is a William Masters of the right age (15) - Masters was his father's name and perhaps he had not yet decided which he was going to be - he settled on Wilson in the longer term.
Unfortunately this extract does not show the relationships between the individuals
Harbury, East End,1
William Masters, 50, Farmer,WAR,
Hannah Masters, 50, WAR,
William Masters,15, WAR,
William Martin,5, Visitor (Crossed Out),WAR,
Hannah Martin,,4, Visitor (Crossed Out),WAR,
Mary Anne Martin, 2, Visitor (Crossed Out),WAR,
This 15 year old boy could either be my GGGGrandfather living with some relatives but not his parents, or he could be a relative of my GGGGGrandfather, thus explaining how the biological parents met - during a family visit by Stephen to the village - or might be nothing whatsoever to do with me.
Please advise me what this means and what you think I should do next while I continue to digest the wealth of information you have sent me.
Thanks very much again
Louise
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The William Wilson I have in Harbury in 1851 is
HO 107 2077 folio 102
William Wilson Head Married 25 Rail Labourer Harbury
Caroline Wilson Wife 25 Harbury
Daniel Wilson Son 6 Harbury
Mary A. Wilson Daughter 4 Harbury
Elizabeth Wilson Daughter 1 Harbury
Regards
Valda
This is indeed my GGGGrandfather with his wife and family, including Daniel Wilson my GGGrandfather, who features elsewhere, in the thread "The Wilsons of Allesley".
I am also interested in starting another thread in the fullness of time about railway labouring and which railways William might have been labouring on during the 1840s in south Warwickshire...
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Now that you have given me the option of looking for the spelling Avice too, I have found on the IGI
Avice Wilson, christened 19th October 1803 in Balderton, Newark, Notts to parents William Wilson and Mary.
Both extremely common names, but if they were her parents, it might explain why she named her son William and changed her own name to Mary, if she did.
That is a big "if" of course - but I am coming to think she did, otherwise someone kidnapped her entire family and spirited them away whilst simultaneously replacing them with another family with all the same names and dates of birth - twilight zone anyone?
I am sure the parish register for Coventry St Michael will tell me more, I have a friend who might be able to look at it for me quite soon.
Regards
Louise
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Hello Louise,
That is good that the 1841 Harbury census is on the Warwickshire site. But the story remains puzzling. The 1841 census does not include relationships - so it does not help with William.
IF Mary and 'Avica' are the same person (which seems very likely), why is the name shown as Mary in the 1841 census on 6 Jun 1841 (presumably before Eliza's birth as she is not shown in the census) but as Abitha in Eliza's christening record on 26 Dec 1841.
There is a birth for Eliza on FreeBMD:
Eli_a FINCH Sep qtr 1841 Southam Vol 16 Page 423
I guess it would be worth getting Eliza's birth certificate to see how the mother's forename and maiden name are recorded.
Hannah's birth does not seem to be on FreeBMD - I wonder whether there is a birth registration for her? That certificate too could be interesting.
Also the film of the Harbury OPR to see whether there is any clue. And the film of the Coventry OPR for the marriage of John FINCH and Avies WILSON in 1832 in case there is any clue there.
A strange and interesting puzzle.
JAP
PS: Something else to keep in mind is that in 1851 and all the later censuses, Mary's birthplace is given as Fifield Oxfordshire.
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Burford Oxfordshire is two parishes away from Fifield (bear in mind the IGI does not have brilliant coverage of Oxfordshire as a whole)
From the IGI
MARY ANN WILLISON
Christening: 18 DEC 1801 Burford, Oxford, England
Father: RICHARD WILLISON
No other Wilson baptisms in Burford (coverage to 1812) and no other Richard Wilson children's baptisms in Oxfordshire. Burford and Fifield are on the county boundary with Gloucestershire, but without a mother's name it makes it difficult to follow Richard Wilsons too far, as the surname is so common.
You need to search Fifield and surrounding parishes for a potential baptism for Avica, but when doing so it might be worth checking the actual Burford register for this Mary Ann Willson. Has the IGI transcriber had difficulty in reading the second name, and made a stab at the name presuming incorrectly that it was probably the more usual Mary Ann, with the Ann part badly written?
I'm not saying that this is not just an ordinary Mary Ann Willson correctly transcribed on the IGI and baptised at the right time in the near vicinity of where you hope to find 'Avica'. But a baptism entry something like this would help explain the name change to Mary from Avica. Not a complete name change at all, just that your ancestor chose to use her first name instead of her second (or vice versa) at a later date. Having checked IGI entries at source, the actual registers themselves, I am also aware there are mistranscription errors in the IGI.
Adding to your ever growing collection of Finches, here are some potential step Finches to go with their later half siblings
From the IGI
ANN FINCH
Christening: 20 DEC 1818 Harbury, Warwick
Father: JOHN FINCH
Mother: HANNAH
MARY FINCH
Christening: 28 APR 1822 Harbury, Warwick
Father: JOHN FINCH
Mother: HANNAH
SAMUEL FINCH
Christening: 11 JUN 1822 Harbury, Warwick
Father: JOHN FINCH
Mother: HANNAH
WILLIAM FINCH
Christening: 21 SEP 1826 Harbury, Warwick
Death: 24 SEP 1826
Father: JOHN FINCH
Mother: HANNAH
And the marriage
JOHN FINCH
Spouse: HANNAH JEACOCK
Marriage: 21 AUG 1818 Harbury, Warwick
From the National burial index
16th January 1829 Hannah Finch 29 Harbury All Saints
24th September 1826 William Finch 1 day Harbury All Saints
and to complete the list, the other Finch burial in Harbury on the National index.
17th April 1844 Eliza Finch 2 Harbury All Saints
Regards
Valda
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<snip>
From the National burial index
16th January 1829 Hannah Finch 29 Harbury All Saints...
Valda, that is a good find.
Incidentally, what did you make of the two 1822 christenings?
When I mentioned the John FINCH/Hannah JEACOCK marriage and the John FINCH/Hannah family earlier (this thread is getting very complex) I did wonder whether John and 'Avica'/Mary might be a second marriage for John. But then thought that, if John's age (50) was correct in the 1851 entry you provided, he would have been young (17/18) for an 1819 marriage - but still eminently possible. I've just checked back to other information. 1841 is no help (as ages were rounded down to the nearest 5) but 1861 (62), 1871 (72), 1881 (82) and what is no doubt his death entry - Mar qtr 1890, Southam, age 92 - do fit in well.
And, as it happens, I've come across quite a few cases where a re-married widower and his second wife name the first daughter of a second marriage after the late wife. This would fit with John and 'Avica'/Mary naming their first daughter Hannah (though it may be coincidence or for another reason).
Incidentally, here is what must be Samuel, son of John and Hannah, in 1861:
RG9/4441, Folio 135, Page 8
Royal Navy, Cadiz Bay, Vessel "St. Jeand'acre" (that's how it's written)
Saml FINCH, Sergt. R.M. (transcribed as Serg E.R.M.), Married, 39, b Southam, Warwick
... 17th April 1844 Eliza Finch 2 Harbury All Saints ...
I don't think I mentioned the entry from FreeBMD for Eliza's death (only the birth) - it's Jun qtr 1844, Southam, Vol 16, page 324.
Louise, if 'Avica' was Mary's middle name, let's just hope that her full 'Sunday' name was recorded in Hannah's or Eliza's birth certificates.
This is like one of those weekend newspaper puzzles - when you have to wait on tenterhooks until the following weekend for the solution.
JAP
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JAP, you are on tenterhooks and you only met her last week. Now imagine how it is for me, having been searching all over Warwickshire for over 20 years for the mysterious Avica (in the days before the internet when you had to go to Warwick castle to the archives in person).
The work you have done is amazing.
I guess it is all very different now that we have so many electronic registers and indexes and databases - although I dont have so many of those myself, only what I can find through Google.
These days you can pop in the name and approximate date of birth into a search and find out all possible census matches. I am used to pouring over reels in libraries looking for entries and getting a headache from the terrible writing and poor lighting.
I have to tell you, your way is better!
(By the way, I am only 39, I just realised I sound about 100 going on about the olden days.)
I have sent off for Eliza's birth certificate so now we have to wait to see what it says. I have also asked a friend of mine who occasionally visits the archives, to have a look at the Coventry St Michaels marriage for Avica and John - wont it be great if it says he is a widow!
I am thrilled with the Finches and have put them all on my family tree database at home. I felt a bit sorry for Emma, she had six daughters before she had a son, and I bet her husband thought it was her fault.
I will let you know as soon as I hear back from any of the researches currently underway. I shant rush off to look at Burford or anywhere else until we know more about what we are dealing with, but will keep these notes well to hand.
Best wishes
Louise
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Hello again Louise,
Re your comments ...
I'm not about to admit my age in public - 39 sounds an excellent age though let's just say that I've not yet quite reached the century though I am a retired person. And yes, I have done more than my fair share of winding through reels of films and poring over fiche in nasty crowded rooms than I wish to remember. And virtually all of this with the added difficulty of doing so in the Antipodes - apart from a very very few hours at Kew, at Westminster (think that's right), and at the PO Archives at Mt Pleasant; definitely a total of less than three half days researching in London. Also a half day in Edinburgh - all of which was spent following a total red herring which, I am glad to say, I have expunged from my memory thanks to the wonderful online ScotlandsPeople.
But, if I may say so, your subject line was brilliant. I have read genealogical 'tips' which express the view that a subject line in a genie query is like an advertisement - you need to catch the reader's eye. And that's just what yours did for me - added to which it's on the Warwickshire board which I tend to notice because I have DALTONs going back for yonks in Church Lawford. But, even so, I nearly didn't read your post! Of course, once I did I was hooked - and then, once I saw Evica, Abitha and Avies in the IGI, there was no holding me ;D
It's amazing how one post from a RootsChatter can bring all sorts of people and information out - all of which enables everyone to add pieces and to produce a lovely picture from the initial, and added, jigsaw pieces.
You are very prudent indeed to wait until you get Eliza's certificate, and any info from Coventry, before going further.
I must admit I am rather taken with Royal Marine Samuel - I wonder what happened to him...
Waiting for the next instalment,
JAP
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IF Mary and 'Avica' are the same person (which seems very likely), why is the name shown as Mary in the 1841 census on 6 Jun 1841 (presumably before Eliza's birth as she is not shown in the census) but as Abitha in Eliza's christening record on 26 Dec 1841.
Easily done JAP if the christening was done in the church where the pastor had known her for quite a while by her original name
Willow x
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Adding to your ever growing collection of Finches, here are some potential step Finches to go with their later half siblings
(snip)
Regards
Valda
Valda, thanks for all your help and detail. I am very pleased with the Finches, although I could not say why exactly. I think it is because it is a new line and I have not had a new line in several years now.
Dear Everyone Else
I read up on the history of Harbury again last night to remind me of the place and the people. It was a little old village that didn't quite make it agriculturally, the land just wasn't good enough, so the people only ever struggled to get by. It was known as Hungry Harbury.
Then in the 1840s the railway came and the digging of the cutting in Harbury, the deepest in the world at that time, saw an increase in fortunes and a swelling in numbers as navvies (navigators) who dug up the land and laid the tracks, moved in. I think it was the Great Western Railway from memory.
My GGGrandfather William Wilson, Avica's illegitimate son, worked on this railway as a labourer - not quite as important as a navvie.
The navvies drank a lot and there was concern in the village about binge-drinking and men staggering round the streets at night (it was ever thus) so the Primitive Methodists, including our Henry Thomas Finch I assume, worked hard on their temperance campaigns.
The same Prims (that is what they are known as in my family, us being regular methodists) also set up a Co-op store in Harbury and worked with the CofE vicar in setting up the first trade union for farmers in the area, so there were some quite far-sighted people around.
These days Harbury, like most villages everywhere, is more of a commuter town where people go elsewhere to work and come home at night. It is not self-sufficient any more, but nor is it hungry.
So now you have a bit of a context to place Avica in.
JAP - a friend of mine with a passion for research has Daltons in his family, married to Masters, in Knowle I think from memory. Do you want to be put in touch? PM me if you do.
Perhaps we can get Liverpool Annie to find out about the ship that Samuel was on in Cadiz, she seems rather good at shipping.
Regards and thanks again
Louise
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Hi Louise,
DALTON is a common name so the Knowle people may well not be connected! I suspect that the Church Lawford DALTONs were CofE (they are pretty easily traceable back to 1602). In the family I'm researching it was a William, bap Church Lawford in 1758, who went to Leicestershire and married into a Wesleyan family in 1782 in Hinckley Leicestershire; he and his family were subsequently very big in the Wesleyan Methodists in Barwell, Leicestershire - though virtually all had left Barwell by the late 1800s. Some of William's grandsons came to Australia in the 1850s ... A daughter of one of whom (this was my children's Ggma) married in a Primitive Methodist Parsonage in Victoria, Australia
I grew up thinking of navvies as workers on the waterfront - no doubt it has a wider and even a more specific application. My Gpa, an ardent collective bargainer who started the first Shearers' Union in Aus back in the 1880s would, no doubt, have set me right!
The whole Temperance Movement of the 1800s - world-wide - is a fascinating story.
I guess that the Rootsweb Mariners-L could help with the "Jeand'acre" or whatever her name actually was. And Lloyds Registers might help.
Cheers,
JAP
Louise, Google for ship jean d'acre!!
Click Here (http://www.nmm.ac.uk/mag/pages/mnuExplore/PaintingDetail.cfm?letter=m&ID=BHC3619)
Might Samuel have been aboard ...
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Hello
I have the first results of my research back.
Eliza Finch's birth certificate arrived from Southport today.
She was born 20th June 1841 which explains why she was not on the census that year.
Her mother is Evice Finch formerly Wilson, her father is John Finch, labourer. The birth is registered 7th of July 1841 and her mother is illiterate, leaving her mark.
So I am happy that Evice Finch is Avica Wilson my great great great great grandmother. I cannot think that there were two Avica Wilsons in Harbury. Therefore the four children are William's half siblings.
This does not however satisfy our curiousity as to the identity of Mary Finch. I know we think she is Avica by another name, but how can we be sure? What do you suggest I apply for next? My friend is going to check the marriage entry in the parish register in Warwick for me soon, shall I wait to see that or is there something else I can look at?
I wonder why they got married in Coventry St Michaels and not Harbury, given that they were both living there. Something to do with William's illegitimacy? shame?
My other question is, if John Finch was first married to Hannah who died and then to Avica, if we believe that, then what happened to their children? They are not on the 1841 census.
Regards and best wishes
Louise
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The two older female Finches by 1841 if not already married, would be working somehere as servants and if the 1861 census record is correct for the Samuel Finch born Harbury, then he may have already joined the Royal Marines, as by then he would have been 19 (and the youngest of the three surviving children).
People often married out of parish in the nearest large conurbation in the C19th. With banns read three times in church and everyone knowing your business, some people just preferred to go off to a town or city and marry more anonymously there. Nothing really to do with shame. You also got a trip to Coventry. The C19th equivalent of marrying on a beach in Jamaica, or going to Vegas today.
I think you have enough proof that Avica in some records by the 1840s was Avica (birth of Eliza 20th June) and in others such as the 1841 census (census night June 6th) was Mary, which just leaves you trying to find her baptism in Oxfordshire.
Regards
Valda
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Thanks Valda, some more useful avenues to go down.
I am glad you agree with me that it is now pretty certain that the four children of John and Avica/Evica/Avies/Abitha are William's half siblings. It is odd why the census is different but they interchange Henry Thomas's name too so maybe they were a bit casual on that front and being illiterate probably meant that someone other than Avica talked to the enumerator each time he called. It would be very strange if Avica and John were also in Harbury having the same children as Mary and John, but did not themselves appear on the census, so I think we have to take it on trust that they are the same couple.
I notice in an earlier post you said you had found John and "Mary" on the censuses up to and including 1881. I wonder if you recorded what you found there, it would be nice to have the "full set".
I'll post up the results of the marriage look-up as soon as I get it.
Best wishes
Louise
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I think I only posted up the 1851 census, so I'm presuming you mean from 1861 onwards?
RG9 2241 folio 87
North Street Harbury Warwickshire
John Finch 62 Hunningham, Warwickshire, Head Married Ag lab
Mary Finch 59 Fivefield, Oxfordshire, Wife Married
RG10 3218 folio 67
North Street Harbury Warwickshire
John Finch 72 Huningham, Warwickshire, Head Married Labourer
Mary Finch 71 Fifield, Oxfordshire, England Wife Married
RG11 3114 folio 59
North Street, Harbury, Warwickshire
John Finch 82 Huningham, Warwickshire, Head Married Formally labourer
Mary Finch 81 Fifield, Oxfordshire, Wife Married
RG12 2369 folio 96
1 Regent Buildings Ladywood Birmingham
Finch, John 55 Harbury, Warwickshire, Head Married Gardener
Finch, Eliza 49 Halton, Warwickshire, Wife Married
Finch, Henry J 18 Finstall, Worcestershire, Son Wine cellarman
Finch, Sophia F 17 Woodbrook, Worcestershire, Daughter Sweetmeat maker
Finch, Frank A 6 Birmingham, Warwickshire, Son
Finch, Mary 90 Fifefield, Oxfordshire, Mother Widow
Regards
Valda
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People often married out of parish in the nearest large conurbation in the C19th. With banns read three times in church and everyone knowing your business, some people just preferred to go off to a town or city and marry more anonymously there. Nothing really to do with shame. You also got a trip to Coventry. The C19th equivalent of marrying on a beach in Jamaica, or going to Vegas today.
Valda, I forgot to say how much this tickled me, the idea that Coventry was a big deal in the first third of the C18th.
I have another pair of ancestors that married in the poshest church in Nottingham in the 1700s when they actually lived in a village 10 miles outside.
I guess it is the same sort of thing. What a pity they didn't have Hello Magazine to sell the photos to, or the photos either come to that.
I am now entering all the various information on various spreadsheets and databases so I can see if there are any gaps.
I'll look round for the missing children.
I went to Warwickshire archives at the castle and looked through all the Harbury parish records about 20 years ago but obviously completely missed the Finches. I could kick myself, but there you go.
As I was typing, you too were typing, so thanks for all the new info which I will now read
I am so grateful, really I am, you are such a wonderful help, I might have to put you up for a rootschat honour.
Regards
Louise
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Perhaps I slightly over did the bright lights of Coventry in the C19th, though I think whisking your partner off to the local metropolis for however long it took to get married - usually people bought a licence if they could afford it, so less than the required 3 weeks residency, but I bet that was fudged a bit with addresses of convenience, would certainly be one way to impress your future partner. That 'old Coventry magic' seems to have worked for John - the marriage lasted until his death, so about 58 years in all.
I don't actually know what a Rootschat honour is, but then I'm the sort that didn't notice there was a number next to my name counting the messages I'd sent, plus a collection of stars, until I was up to 370 messages. I kid you not.
I think on this one the honours are equally spread amongst everyone who has helped you and for their benefit reading this I need to explain I have helped you on another thread with another puzzle, or they will quite rightly wonder why I have been single out.
Helping and being thanked, for me is fine.
I hope your trip the the National Archives on Tuesday goes well.
Regards
Valda
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Thanks Valda; yes, I guess 'twas I who introduced the name FINCH (yes, I'm a bird-watcher) into the thread - but I just like puzzles and this thread had a subject which was so tantalizing 8)
Louise, earlier I said that I had looked at the Fifield batches - there are only two, C047861 and M047861 - and had found nothing.
That was not strictly true. I hadn't found any WILSONs in either batch but I had noticed an 'Avice' in the birth/baptism batch - but hadn't followed up on her.
The only Mary baptisms in the batch 1801 +/- 5 years are Mary Anne CUMMINES, 12 Feb 1802, Henry/Sarah; Mary GRIFFIN, 20 Mar 1803, John/Elizabeth; Mary HARRIS, 1 May 1803, John/Sarah.
Of course, it may well be that Mary/'Avica' was not christened.
However, looking back at this 'Avice', she is:
Avice SIMPSON, bap 3 Aug 1800, mother Ann SIMPSON, no father mentioned, Fifield by Burford, Oxfordshire.
This is the right time for the Fifield-born Mary (whom we strongly/confidently suspect to be the same person as the mysterious 'Avica'), wife of John FINCH - Mary was b Fifield Oxfordshire ca 1800/1801 according to census information.
How tempting to think that Avice's father might have been a Mr WILSON or that Ann SIMPSON might have subsequently married a Mr WILSON - and that Avice SIMPSON might have grown up as Avice WILSON ;D
And even that such a WILSON family might have moved to Harbury.
I haven't (yet?) managed to find anything else to support such a hypothesis but ...
Incidentally, there seem to be two sets of Fifield records listed on FamilySearch - the Bishops Transcripts 1669-1851, the film of which can be ordered in to LDS FHCs; and St. John the Baptist Fifield, Oxon. parish register transcripts which are not available for circulation to FHCs. Both seem to be held in the Library of the Society of Genealogists. Not that it is likely that anything further would be found in the full baptism entry.
Regards,
JAP
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No Ann Simpson marriage anywhere on the IGI to a Wilson, within 10 years of the baptism (though I did say Oxfordshire is not well covered) - no Ann Simpson marriage to anyone in Fifield. I was already ahead of you on a Wilson move to Harbury and had checked the National Burial Index for Wilsons, at the same time as I checked for Finches - nothing. I've gone back and checked for Simpson - still nothing (Harbury only goes up to 1852).
Fifield is not on the National burial index - but I have not detected a single Wilson event in Fifield on the IGI (but see below on start of IGI coverage for the parish).
Ann Simpson of Fifield had a child before Avice - John Hayward Simpson in 1796, which might give an indication of his father's surname at least. No other Simpsons baptised in Fifield around this time (but the IGI coverage I think only begins in 1794). No marriage for a John Hayward Simpson on the IGI, or a death of the same on FreeBMD. On the 1861 census there is a John Simpson 60 born Fifield an ag lab. with his wife Sarah 56 born Charlbury Oxon. No other Simpsons born Fifield or in Fifield or Wil(l)sons or Haywards and no Avis or Avice, but 1861 is a long time after the events. No John Simpson after 1861 and no death registration on FreeBMD.
However, and here comes something much more interesting, there is a Hannah Simpson marriage 15th October 1812 in Harbury to a William Masters. The 1841 census entry for this couple has already been posted with Hannah approximately 50 born in county, so to young for a son in 1796.
Undeterred I checked the 1851 census for Hannah Masters and found this
HO/107/2077 Folio: 98
Mill Street, Harbury
Hannah MASTERS Head Widow 66 Farmg 11 Acres Emp 1 Lab born Fifefield-OXF
Which would give her a birthdate of circa 1785, still to young for baptisms of a child in 1796. As far as I can tell Hannah Masters and Mary Finch were the only two people born in Fifield present in Harbury in 1851. Ditto 1861.
RG9 2241 folio 72
Chapel Street Harbury Warwickshire
Hannah Masters 79 born Fifield, Oxfordshire, Head Widow Formerly the wife of ag lab
Her age is improving as she now has a birth date of circa 1782 which could just squeeze her in at 14 for a baptism for 1796, though its a tight fit. After that she is missing and I can't find a death registration for her on FreeBMD.
Other than Avice Simpson taking her father's surname of Wilson (he doesn't appear to be in Fifield parish as there are no Wilsons appearing in the parish register) I can't think of another easy explanation for her surname (I can't find any previous marriages for her, though of course she might have married as a Mary- none as Hayward either). I think it would be very unusual for an illegitimate daughter brought up by her Simpson mother to carry her father's surname, unless perhaps her mother had a Wilson connection? If there is a bastardy bond for Avice Simpson in Oxfordshire Record Office that might help if the father's name proves to be Wilson. It gives no help at all with explaining a late name change to Mary. (Ann/Anna/Hannah is much more standard)
Louise says somewhere previously in her messages that she has researched Stephen Masters family, the father of Avica's son. Is there a connection with William Masters of Harbury, the husband of Hannah, since Stephen Masters was baptised 1805 in Staverton Northants?
The only burial I can find for a William Masters on the National burial index does not give an age - 25th August 1848 Harbury Wesleyan (nothing on FreeBMD).
I cannot find on the IGI a baptism of a William Masters in Harbury but I can find several possibles for a William in Staverton.
So was William Masters of Harbury, an uncle of Stephen's?
In which case married Stephen may very well have had an illegitmate child by his step cousin (I think that offically would be the relationship). It also means along with the half and step Finches and the half Masters of Stephen's children, there is now the possibility of a half Masters aunt, a child of William Masters and Hannah.
The IGI for Harbury lists only one baptism for a Master
MARY ANN MASTERS
Christening: 07 MAR 1828 Harbury, Warwick
Age at Christening: 14
Father: WILLIAM MASTERS
Mother: ANN
and a marriage
MARY ANN MASTER
Spouse: EDWARD MARTIN
Marriage: 10 APR 1834 Harbury, Warwick
There were Martin children on the 1841 census with William and Hannah.
As I think the IGI Fifield register coverage only starts in 1794 (according to my Phillimore Atlas and Index of parish registers) perhaps the early period and Hannah's baptism may reveal Wilson connections? - Fifield registers appear to go back to 1700 (see Phillimore quote above) but JAP says that the Bishop transcripts - the copies of the registers which were sent to the Bishop, survive before that starting in 1669.
The transcript of the parish registers themselves can be bought on fiche from Oxfordshire Family History Society for the grand sum of
Fifield, Oxon - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - £2.10
http://www.ofhs.org.uk/
On their website you can check out their other search facilities, - payment is possible online by credit card
Regards
Valda
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Valda, RC needs a new emoticon - retires in total awe!! SIMPSONs and MASTERSs in Harbury! Shocked and/or Rolls Eyes just won't do!
What a wealth of information. When (from the Antipodes) I return refreshed in the morning, I'll put my thinking cap on and see if I can make anything of all that information and whatever else might have been posted. Incidentally, Valda, you spoke of other correspondence with Louise; me too but on my DALTON people and that's quite something else to be followed up.
The references for the Fifield registers that I found were on FamilySearch (place search for Fifield in the Family History Library) and via Genuki which led to the SOG at:
http://www.sog.org.uk/prc/oxford.html#F
Cheers, JAP
PS: 'Avica' shall I dream of you!
PPS: (Adding as I go but will stop now) Re use of father's name - I have in my family two illegitimate children being brought up in Kippen, Stirlingshire, Scotland by their mother (and/or grandmother) under their fathers' names (two different fathers - the mother's name MCLAUSE, the fathers' names ANDERSON and NIMMO). The first child (a son b 1838) was always recorded as ANDERSON - baptism, censuses, marriage, births of his children, death; the second child (a daughter b 1842) was baptised as NIMMO, was in the 1851 census as NIMMO, and died in 1859 (informant her ANDERSON half-brother) as MCLAWS.
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Just to reel in the Martin family a little more
IGI baptisms at Southam Warwickshire for Edward Martin and Mary
William Henry 13th November 1835
Hannah 16th December 1836
Mary Ann 15th July 1838
Phoebe 6th June 1843
1851 census
HO 107 2077 folio 177
Coventry St Southam
Edward Martin Head Married 40 Baker born Southam
Emma Martin Daughter 11 born Southam
Phoebe Martin Daughter 7 born Southam
HO 2072 folio 614
24 Lansdowne St Leamington Priors Warwickshire
Mary Martin Head married 36 Baker born Southam
Henry Martin Son 16 born Southam
Mary Martin Daughter 13 born Southam
Eliz Martin Daughter 9 born Southam
Cath Martin Daughter 2 born Southam
Edward Martin Son 6 born Southam
Joseph Kite Servant 15 born Wooten wawen
HO 107 2067 folio 361
Warwick Row Coventry
Hannah Martin 14 House servant born Southam.
Regards
Valda
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Wow
I go offline for 36 hours and come back to find a whole host of new family members - I think I said before, I feel like the recipient of an August challenge.
I am thrilled, if not a little punch-drunk, this is going to take some sorting out.
Valda and Jap, you both deserve honours, I wasn't meaning to divide and rule, honest, you have both put in a whole lot of hours on this project and I am truly thankful. Someone once told me that if you have to make an acceptance speech you should never name names because inevitably someone vital doesnt get mentioned.
They dont actually do honours in rootschat as far as I know, so I am afraid you wont be getting anything, but I shall think of you as Dame Valda and Dame Judy from now on ;)
Two initial questions;
Firstly how does one search a batch? I am presuming you are talking about the familysearch.org website containing the mormon indexes, known as IGI. I have been using this for years but didnt know you could search within a batch. I bet there's lots of things I could do on that site that I dont know about.
I am quite happy to get the fiche, although less sure where I would be able to view it, the technology is so far out of date I cannot think where there is a machine, but I will get it anyway.
The 1832 marriage entry is going to be so important, the possible information it could prove is immense. John Finch could be shown as a widow, therefore making it entirely possible that he is the husband of Hannah and the father of the early children, including Sam the sailor sergeant.
Avica (I instead on thinking of her with an A, having done so ever since I got the bastardy bond) could be shown as Avica Mary or Mary Avica, thus resolving the "Mary" on the census once and for all, and now she could be on the register as "Wilson nee Simpson" or "Wilson or Simpson".
The mind boggles but the entry I dont want is "John Finch married Avice Wilson both of Harbury October 1832" because that would be extremely unhelpful.
I dont have access to my database today so cannot say whether William Masters in Harbury is related to Stephen Masters of Staverton, except that I have always assumed he very likely is. I shall have to come back to you on that tomorrow.
So much to get my head round
Best wishes
Louise
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Valda, you pointed out the christening of Mary Ann MASTERS in Harbury at age 14 in 1828, parents William MASTERS and Ann - an approximate birthdate (1814) which would fit with the issue of the marriage of William MASTERS and Hannah SIMPSON (1812). Also the marriage of a Mary Ann MASTERS to an Edward MARTIN, and the fact that there were MARTIN children with William and Hannah MASTERS in the 1841 census. Also with them was William MASTERS, 15 - who, Louise said earlier, might possibly have been Avice's son William WILSON or MASTERS.
Apologies if I'm repeating what has already been drawn specifically to everyone's attention (or seemed so obvious that it didn't need to be) namely that the 14 yo Mary Ann MASTERS (daughter of William MASTERS and Hannah SIMPSON) was christened on the same day as William WILSON or MASTERS, illegitimate son of Stephen MASTERS and Avice WILSON - 7 Mar 1828.
It certainly is looking as though William MASTERS in the 1841 was Hannah's grandson (William's step-grandson), and that 'Avica'/Mary WILSON later FINCH is the same as Avice SIMPSON.
Louise, re the IGI batches, just click on the batch number at the bottom of the detailed screen in the IGI. The screen which then appears will have just the batch number and the region British Isles. If you enter nothing more, and click on search, the complete batch will appear. Then play around putting in as little or much information as possible and see how you go - the system soon complains if it doesn't like what you ask for!
JAP
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A largish library should have a microfiche reader - any library with a local studies section will.
The Birmingham and Midland Genealogy Society don't seem to have transcribed Harbury parish registers, just the MIs.
If the Coventry marriage was by licence there will be an allegation in the record office. By 1832 you get very little detail on allegations, however you do get some.
I would contact Oxfordshire Record Office about potential Bastardy bonds in Fifield for the Simpson children.
Regards
Valda
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I still have not quite got my head round this.
Let me try, chronologically
This is our supposition;
A very young Hannah Simpson/Ann had baby John H Simpson baptised in Fifield in 1796
She then had baby Avice Simpson baptised in 1800
They may or may not have had the same father, but we could imagine that John's father was Mr Hayward and Avice's father was Mr Wilson.
Hannah/Ann then married William Masters in 1812 in Harbury. (The men of Harbury are obviously very stoical)
Mary Ann Masters was born circa 1814 although not baptised for another 14 years.
Avice Simpson/Wilson as we shall now call her, had an illegitimate son, William Wilson or Masters born in 1826. (Masters because of his father's name and Masters because of his mother's step-fathers name too? Wilson because of his mother's name which was probably her father's name - how complicated is that?)
1828 Mary Ann Masters and "William Wilson or Masters" are baptised together at Harbury church.
They are Aunt and Nephew, Mary Ann being Avica's half-sister.
In the 1841 census William Wilson/Masters is living with his grandparents. Mary Ann having already married Edward Martin by this time (1834), had a few children and then died or disappeared before that census.
Avica Simpson/Wilson has married John Finch in 1832 and is on the census as Mary Finch with three of their children.
So Avica is;
Avice Simpson when baptised
Avica Wilson on the bastardy bond
Avice Wilson at her wedding
variously Evice, Abitha and Avies Finch when registering her children's births or having them baptised and
Mary Finch on the census
Have I got that more or less right?
Let that be a warning to us all about making assumptions. Left entirely to my own devices I dont believe I would ever have found Mary Finch but I might have been tempted to go for the Avice Wilson baptised in Newark to William and Mary in 1803. That would have been a terrible mistake to make.
But who was to know that it was going to be a like an episode of a soap opera?
Best wishes
Louise
PS just adding a bit I forgot to say before. Clearly there was a new vicar or a new clerk in the period between 1836 and 1839 who was new to the parish. He didnt know Avica's name and thought he was being told "Abitha" which makes me think that she was called "A-veek-a" rather that "A-veese" otherwise he wouldn't have heard that sound. I am not sure that there is a mass of difference between Evica and Avica to the human ear, the stress being on the "eek" sound.
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I don't have access to the 1841 census, so I don't know where the Martin parents were, but they were certainly alive on the 1851 census with an ever growing number of children (see my details on the Martins in 1851).
Because of the tightness of age for Ann Simpson and the first known appearance in Fifield of an illegitimate Simpson (and I'm not really sure what happened to him and if that 1861 census for Fifield was him, why did he stay and his mother and sister leave for Harbury of all places?) I'd rather you checked the Fifield registers. If there are any more Simpson illegitmate births before John Hayward Simpson then it calls into question the mother daughter relationship, though there certainly must be a relationship.
It would just be good to have a clearer picture of what is going on in Fifield including the burials and any potential bastardy bonds.
I have found one further Simpson event in Fifield which indicates there may have been a family there.
JAMES SIMPSON
Spouse: ELIZABETH BRAIN
Marriage: 10 JAN 1802 Fifield By Burford
No idea what happened to them.
I'm not sure the attraction of male stoicism alone, is a good enough reason to move from Fifield to Harbury.
Regards
Valda
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A couple of further points;
Searching through the batch for Harbury, now that I know how to, I have noticed that the “good people” of Habury must have really got religion on March 7th 1828 for there are others baptised that day.
There is for example the delightfully named Jabish Jeffts aged 9 and Ellen Jeffts, with their parents Jonas Jeffts and Eliza Jeffts. They were all baptised together.
Perhaps baptisms were on special offer that day, or maybe there was a fever raging and people wanted to be baptised just in case?
Having re-read the census returns from Valda properly this time, I wonder why Mary (Ann) Martin was not living with her husband but separately in a different town? I see they are both bakers, perhaps they worked at separate bakeries, but it seems rather a pity.
I will of course check the Fifield registers Valda, I will be ordering the bishop’s transcript on fiche this week and making enquiries about bastardy bonds. To answer your query about the pull of Harbury, maybe William Masters met the young Miss Simpson and her children on a visit to Fifield and persuaded her to marry him and come to live in Hungry Harbury, away from the twitching net curtains. Perhaps young John H Simpson at then 12 years old got a job on a farm somewhere locally and so didn’t go with them?
I am busy playing with batch number searches now, great fun
Louise
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It will be great if Valda's suggestion of bastardy bonds for Fifield produces more information. This is a whole new area for me; not that my ancestors were all married and legitimate - anything but! However, I've not been aware of bastardy bonds heretofore.
And it will be great if the marriage entry yields something - though, like Valda, I fear not.
Louise, another trawl through the Harbury parish registers, armed with all the new found knowledge, might be worthwhile in case there are some clues (witnesses, sponsors, occupations, places of residence, etc)?
Re a possible relationship between William MASTERS (husband of Hannah SIMPSON) and Stephen MASTERS (father of William, the illegitimate son of 'Avica').
Was Stephen of Staverton, or born/baptized there? I'm not abreast of this.
However, I see that a Pedigree Resource File on FamilySearch thinks that a Stephen MASTERS was bap 1801 in Budbrooke, Warwickshire, son of Job MASTERS and Ann HORTON. And that this Stephen had an Ellen MASTERS in 1830 with Elizabeth ZYKE whom he married in Dec 1827, and a William WILSON with Evica WILSON (it gets off the tracks here as it has William b 1825 and dying on 7 Mar 1828!!).
But, if Budbrooke is right, I could make (make up?) a relationship between William and Stephen from extracted entries in the IGI - making Stephen the 1st cousin once removed of William (though William's 1841 age would be a problem).
Staverton, Northants, unfortunately doesn't seem to be indexed into the IGI as part of the controlled extraction program - though there are LDS patron submissions which are very detailed and likely to be reliable. And Staverton records are listed in the Family History Library Catalogue on FamilySearch - and available on film.
Regards,
JAP
PS: Louise, it didn't occur to me to look at all the other 7 Mar 1828 baptisms - now you've punctured a big hole in the balloon I had inflated about its significance re William and Mary Ann ;D
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I don't know that the Martins were not living together. All that the census says is they were not together that one night. Bakers can sometimes be caught away from home on census night because they worked nights - so the census records their night shift, not where they were sleeping during the day. Perhaps they were in the process of moving residences?
The Vicar of Harbury (maybe new and enthusiastic or under pressure from the growing Methodist influence) might have walked his parish and checked who was and wasn't baptised and whipped them all in for the following Sunday.
I think it a 'tad' unlikely that William Masters on a trip to Fifield (would there be any reason for him to go there) was swept off his feet by a chance encounter with a local mother of two illegitimate children, albeit that John was 16 in 1812 and Avice 12, so not a great financial responsibility. I would think it more likely both children were home in Fifield looked after by relatives and Hannah/Ann was away working as a servant in the area (possibly how she got into trouble in the first place).
Regards
Valda
P.S. Budbrooke is about 4 or 5 parishes away from Harbury to the West, as Staverton in Northants is in the opposite direction 4 or 5 parishes aways from Harbury to the east. Northamptonshire has the worse coverage on the IGI of any county - about 3% according to the figures I have. Budbrooke is covered by the IGI up to 1876 from the start of the registers.
Stephen Masters born Staverton circa 1803 is on the 1861 census in Staverton and in Southam Warwickshire in 1851. No show for Stephen Masters baptised Budbrooke on either census. No Wilsons born Budbrooke either and according to the IGI none baptised there since 1730.
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Ladies, please let me rush right in here.
FORGET BUDBROOKE!
It is a red herring of huge proportions.
I spent ten years working on a possible link between the two Stephens, assuming they were one and the same, but became they certain they are two different men.
The bastardy bond says my Stephen is from Staverton so I searched their parish records in person myself in Northamptonshire about five years ago.
I found lots of Masters in the parish registers.
I believe I am descended from Thomas Masters, who died in Staverton 28 April 1767 and was married to Anne (who died 27 August 1741 in Staverton).
One of their five children, Thomas Masters, was christened in Staverton, Northants 30 December 1734, died in Staverton 26 February 1806, married Elizabeth Wafforn, the 31 October 1755 in Staverton (died 19 October 1782 in Staverton).
They had 7 children, one of whom, Thomas Masters, was christened in Staverton 21 January 1760, married Ann Watson, 30 January 1777 in Staverton.
They had nine children, one of whom, Stephen Masters, was christened in Staverton, Northants 5 September 1805, died in Staverton 10 April 1892, married Ann Shearsby, 14 November 1825 in Fenny Compton.
Stephen and Ann lived for a while in Shuckborough which is in the same registration district of Southam as Harbury is. I dont think Ann ever knew about young William because they had three sons from memory, one of which was another William.
The Stephen who married Elizabeth Dyke (Zyke was a mis-transcription) and who is the son of Job and Ann is a different chap. Many people have tried to make them the same one, but I really am happy that they are not.
We may never know what drew William Masters to the shamed Miss Simpson, unless it was the same thing that drew Mr Hayward and Mr Wilson...
I will be back in touch when I know more
Regards and best wishes
Louise
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I'd already checked out Stephen Masters of Staveley when I read your first message, in case he provided any avenues, which he didn't from the records I was able to access.
My interest in him remains his connection to William Masters and your brief outline of Stephen's direct descent didn't help me place him.
However when confronted with loose ends I always have a tendency to want to tidy them up, or clear them away.
The other Stephen is not in the burial records for Budbrooke on the National index, or anywhere in Warwickshire on the index. This may be him from the civil registration
MASTERS, Stephen 1840 June Deaths Warwick Warwickshire
I think with a Bastardy Bond against him and money going out to support his illegitimate son, Stephen's wife Ann probaly did know about her husband's indiscretion. These were small communities. Everybody knew everybody else's business and everybody's family connections. I imagine Ann had no choice but to be pragmatic.
I don't know in the early part of the C19th having an illegitmate child was quite as shaming as it was in the period of greatest morality, the first half of the C20th. William was born in the Georgian period anyway, but Victorian morality as we read about it in books was to do with the middles classes and the church. The middle classes had property and money to send down to their legitimate descendants and needed to protect that. Village life on the other hand was closer to nature and the countryside was not chaperoned, though usually a marriage followed on for most village couples. Ann Simpson was unlucky twice. How much she shared all of her history with William....? Stephen was the character in the story who committed the sin, because he of course was an adulterer.
Regards
Valda
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This is just a quick post to tell you that I think I have worked out the relationship between Stephen Masters, father of Avica’s son William Wilson, and William Masters, who may have been looking after William Wilson/Masters in 1841.
The following information is all taken from the parish registers that I saw myself in Northampton about 5 years ago or so. I have all the dates and facts but haven't bored you with what you don't need to know - unless you decide you do of course.
Thomas and Anne Masters, who arrived in Staverton in the early 1700s as far as I can tell, had five children, two of which were boys, William and Thomas.
William married Ann, not in Staverton, whilst Thomas married Elizabeth Wafforn in Staverton.
Each of these couples had a son named Thomas.
William and Ann’s son Thomas was baptised in 1758 in Staverton.
Thomas and Elizabeth’s son Thomas was baptised in 1760 in Staverton.
One of these Thomas’s married Ann Watson in 1777 in Staverton
The other Thomas married Lucy Norton in 1786 in Staverton.
There is no way of working out which is which unfortunately.
Thomas and Lucy had a son William in 1787 – the man on the 1841 census aged 50 (rounded to the nearest half decade).
Thomas and Ann had a son Stephen in 1805 (their youngest) – the father of Avica’s son William.
So, William and Stephen are second cousins (sharing the same great-grandfather, whichever fathers they have) but will have known each other well, being of the same generation, albeit 18 years apart and brought up in the same village.
Stephen did also have an older brother named William, baptised 1779 but he appears on the 1851 census in Dunchurch aged 72 with his wife Mary so he cannot be the man that left Hannah a widow in the same census in Harbury.
Incidentally, in 1851 Stephen’s own census entry is as follows
1851 census, Southam, Warwickshire
Hounds Lane, Upper and Lower Shuckborough, Southam, Warwickshire
Name Age Position Occupation Place of birth
Stephen Masters 46 Head Shepherd Staverton
Anne Masters 50 Wife Fenny Compton
William Masters 16 Son Farm Labourer Staverton
Thomas Rathhman 35 Lodger Farm Labourer Burdingbury
I have posted my cheque for the Fifield fiche and asked about bastardy bonds, although I don’t suppose they have any in the FHS. I will have to write to the county record office about that I expect.
Best wishes
Louise
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And my second post concerns the other Steven Masters - from Budbrooke - I usually distinguish him by using a "v" instead of a "ph"
My records show he was baptised 4/10/1801 in Budbrook the son of Job Masters and Ann nee Horton. I had recorded his death in Hatton, Warwickshire in 1840.
Job was the illegitimate son of Sarah Masters baptised 1772 in Budbrooke.
Sarah was the daughter of Joseph Masters and his cousin Sarah nee Avery, baptised in 1743 in Budbrooke.
Joseph was the son of John Masters and Sarah, baptised in 1707 in Budbrooke.
John was the son of Jacobi and Mariae Masters, baptised in 1675 in Budbrooke.
Jacobi Masters was the son of James Masters and Alice nee Avery, baptised in 1642 in Budbrooke.
I have not been able to tie in the Thomas who arrived in Staverton with wife Ann with any suitable offspring of any of these couples unfortunately, so they remain two different families.
It is rather a shame because I researched them thoroughly, in co-operation with lots of their descendants, for years before finding out that my Stephen was a different person altogether!
Regards Louise
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Sorry Louise (and Valda) about dragging the red herring across the trail - especially one which had thrown genealogical hound Louise off the scent so thoroughly in the past :'( If only the Staverton records had been in the IGI. However, it has been very interesting to read the whole story - so there was a side benefit; thank you Louise.
One is used to everyone being called William or George or similar names but having two chaps called by the less common name of Stephen around the area at the same time does seem a little unfair - and sheer cruelty to genealogists when one is in the IGI and one not... Then again, the descendants of the other Stephen must have benefited enormously from your research.
Anticipating the next instalment ...
Regards,
JAP
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Just a snippet really
This is a paraphrase of the bastardy bond as written by my dear friend Sid Masters - who is descended from the Budbrooke lot but still helps me out with research in Warwick record office from time to time. I do have the original.
"Stephen did beget a child on Avica's body.
After the Church Wardens noticed that Avica was heavy with child, they ruled that poor old Stephen should immediately cough up four pounds nine shillings towards Avica's lying-in costs and a further six shillings to defray the costs of the Bastardy Examination.
And as if that wasn't enough, Stephen was ordered to pay two shillings per week starting immediately and continuing until the unborn child was no longer chargeable to the parish of Harbury. And poor Avica was ordered to pay one shilling per week during this same period. "
Obviously he is taking Stephen's side, tongue in cheek I hope.
Anyway it is interesting to see what it all cost back in 1826
Regards
Louise
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Update on Avica the mysterious woman
I went to Liverpool central library at the weekend with the Fifield fiche that I bought from the Oxfordshire Family History Society. It covers a transcript of all baptisms, marriages and burials from the early 1700s to 1965, it incorporates the parish register and the bishop’s transcript.
I recorded every Simpson entry but because there were only a few it was easy to make the relationships between the individuals.
Baptisms
1800, August 3rd
Avice, Daughter of Ann Simpson, illegitimate (Our Avica we believe)
1796 Sept 4th
John Hayard (sic) Simpson, illegitimate son of Ann
1786 24th Sept
William Simpson, son of William and Susannah
1784 8th Feb
Elizabeth Simpson daughter of William
1779 17th October
Richard Simpson son of William
1777 5th October
Emy (sic) daughter of William Simpson
1775 15th October
James, son of William Simpson
1773 27th June
Ann*, daughter of William Simpson and Susannah (*Avica’s mother)
1749 25th August
William*, son of James and Mary Simpson (*Avica’s grandfather)
Marriages
1802 Jan 10th
James Simpson (Avica’s uncle) m Elizabeth Brain of Bruern Grange
Witnesses Hannah Simpson (Avica’s mother?) and Richard Betman
Burials
30th Jan 1819
Susannah Simpson aged 72 years (Avica’s grandmother)
2nd May 1809
William Simpson (Avica’s grandfather probably, rather than Uncle)
12th September 1797
Mary Simpson (Possibly Avica’s great grandmother or more likely another female relative)
26th April 1771
Mary Simpson (More likely to be Avica’s great grandmother or another female relative)
16th June 1762
James Simpson (Avica’s great grandfather)
14th Feb 1747
Ann Simpson daughter of James and Mary (Avica’s grandfather’s sister)
I am still waiting to hear from my friend about the wedding entry for 1832 in Coventry between Avica Wilson and John Finch.
I suppose we are right, that Avica Wilson is really Avica Simpson is really Mary Finch? No, we are, we are, surely we are.
Regards and best wishes
Louise
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There is an age adjustment there from the best age (given on the 1861 census) and the baptism in 1773. She may have adjusted her age to bring it more in line with her husband's and it would account for why she only had one child in Harbury, as she would actually have been around 41 at her birth. It also means she lived to a quite advanced age, but then so did her daughter.
However a bastardy bond from Fifield, preferably with the surname Wilson attached to it would tie it up securely, but I think perhaps that is a little too much to hope for.
Regards
Valda
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Louise, did you get a reply from the Oxfordshire FHS about Bastardy Bonds? It is difficult to determine from the Oxfordshire County Council site whether or not they hold such information relating to Fifield. There is a good information leaflet but .... It's at:
Click Here (http://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/index/libraries_heritage_countryside/oro/visiting/begin/infosheets/info10.htm)
However, it seems from other sections of the site that they will answer email requests as to whether or not they hold specific information and, for a charge, will photocopy and send it.
I've just checked and you said that the fiche you purchased incorporated both the parish register and the bishop's transcript. That's a pity - I was thinking it might just be the bishop's transcripts and that the actual register might hold more information (I once ordered in the film of a bishop's transcript and recorded the information in it; I was amazed recently when I was sent a copy of the parish register by another researcher - it had much more information!)
Valda, good analysis about the age discrepancy for Ann/Hannah - though it remains a niggle (ca 9 years even using the 'best' census age). Especially as, in Fifield, there is an Ann when bap in 1773 (if this is the Ann who had John and 'Avica'), an Ann as mother of John in 1796, an Ann as mother of Avice in 1800, and then suddenly a Hannah as a witness in 1802.
I've still been trying to explain the name change of 'Avica' to Mary - especially why she was Mary on 6 June 1841 (census) but 'Avica' when little Eliza (born 20 Jun 1841) was registered, and when Eliza was christened in December.
Who decided on the name change and why - and was 'Avica' herself happy about it or not. Whichever, no doubt husband John provided the information or filled out the census schedules from 1841-1881, and son John in 1891 - so 'Avica' herself wouldn't have had a say (and, being illiterate, couldn't check what was written).
But perhaps at the local church, the minister knew only too well that she was (the notorious?) 'Avica' WILSON (even if he couldn't spell it) and wasn't prepared to enter her name as Mary.
The Registrar too, might have known her, and have been unwilling to enter Mary. Or, if 'Avica' herself wasn't happy about the name change, she - as informant (at least for Eliza) - might have given her real name?
It would certainly be good to know where the name WILSON came from.
JAP
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I guess that the Rootsweb Mariners-L could help with the "Jeand'acre" or whatever her name actually was. And Lloyds Registers might help.
Cheers,
JAP
Louise, Google for ship jean d'acre!!
Click Here (http://www.nmm.ac.uk/mag/pages/mnuExplore/PaintingDetail.cfm?letter=m&ID=BHC3619)
Might Samuel have been aboard ...
Last time I tried this link nothing happened, but now that I am sorted out at home with my new lap top and a good quality access I am going over all the information again.
What a fantastic link you found. I have saved the photo of the painting to record with Samuel's entry on the family tree. This is absolutely marvellous. Well done!
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A couple of other things.
I have had the reply back about the wedding in 1832 but the email was deleted by accident and I have had to write back to my friend asking him to send it again. I didnt get a proper chance to read it so cannot tell you the facts but can say that John Finch was a widow so I have now added Hannah Jeacock and their children to my database.
- which gives me carte blanche to enquire further into the above named ship!
Avies Wilson was the name of the bride but I cannot recall if it said where they were from or any other detail - so hold your horses but dont get excited.
I enquired about bastardy bonds in Fifield but there are no poor relief papers still in existence I am afraid.
I have re-read the whole thread and realised that I have not picked up on the death certificate for Mary Finch in the 1890s which might give her two first names.
I have also not done anything about going back to Harbury parish registers although I have been through all of my friend's extracts that he made a few years ago. But they were only related to "Wilsons" so not much help.
The registers may help with learning more about Hannah and William Masters.
I will see if I can get them on fiche too.
I will let you know how I get on.
Best wishes
Louise
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HMS Jean d'Acre
Here's some more information about another painting of the ship (though no picture of it this time):
" FRANK WATSONWOOD, (1862-1953), H.M.S. St. Jean D'Acre in the Tagus at Lisbon, signed, inscribed and dates 'Frand Wood 1908' (lower right) and 'H.M.S. St Jean D'Acre./Lisob Feb 1861.' (lower left), pencil and watercolour 11 1/2 x 17 1/4 in. (29.3x43.8cm). Named for the great Syrian coastal fortress assaulted and captured by the Royal Navy in 1840, H.M.S. St. Jean D'Acre was originally ordered as a pure sailing ship in 1844 but never begun and cancelled the following year. Re-ordered with auxiliary steam power in February 1851, she was laid down at Devonport that June and launched in March 1853 at a cost of GBP107,561. A large two-decker measured at 3,253 tons, she was 238 feet long with a 55 1/2 foot beam and mounted 101 guns of varying calibre, notably 36-8in. muzzle loaders on her lower deck. Fitted with 600nph. Penn engines, she achieved just over 11 knots on her trials and became a highly regarded ship throughout her career. Initially attached to the 'Western Squadron', she then enjoyed the rare distinction of serving with both the Baltic and Black Sea fleets in 1855 during the two quite separate phases of the Crimean War. Her final overseas posting was to the Mediterranean Fleet (1859-61) and this painting depicts her last call when homeward bound in February 1861 under Captain Thompson. Thereafter paid off and laid up in reserve, she was sold to Castle's ship breakers in 1875. Condition: Apart from 2 small repaired spots of foxing and some slight overall acid discolouration to the sky, the picture appears to be in good overall condition."
The link to the above is:
http://www.bermudianart.com/bank.html
JAP
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I have re-received the email from my friend concerning Avica's wedding. It goes as follows
"I visited the CRO in Warwick yesterday and had a look for your beloved Avica in the records of St Michaels. I quickly found that on 01oct1832
John FINCH widower otp
married
Avies WILSON spinster
The ceremony was witnessed by two of the FINCH family.
Fortunately the record stated that they had been married by Banns (not by Licence) so I decided to have a dekko at the Banns to see what further info might be gleaned.
Unfortunately the Banns hadn't been microfilmed and so I gave up.
Fortunately, just as I started to pen these lines, it suddenly occurred to me that the Banns might be available in hard-copy in the CRO. So if you can suppress your excitement, I'll make enquiries when I next go to Warwick."
So, John was described as local to Coventry (which we dont think he was, unless he left and came back again to Harbury, whereas Avica was not of this parish so could have been living anywhere. She was however a spinster which puts paid to the idea that she was Mr Wilson's widow.
I have not been able to track down any fiche or cd copies of Harbury Parish Registers as yet.
I have ordered Avica/Mary's death certificate.
Best wishes
Louise
PS the information about the ship is really great isn't it. Samuel must have been on board during the homeward journey Frank Watson Wood painted as the census in 1861 showed him in Cadiz Bay on her. I wonder who he was married to and where she was at the time. Something else to get my teeth into. I would love to see this painting, I bet my father would too, we shall have to do some research.
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Hello
I forgot to say that Avica's death certificate turned up.
She died as Mary Finch on 19th March 1893 of bronchitis at the grand old age of 92. She is described as the widow of John Finch, farm labourer and the death was registered by her son John who was in attendance at the death.
They were living at Back 27, Alston Street, Ladywood, Birmingham.
There are no other clues and no "Avica" given as one of her forenames.
I have also heard from my Warwickshire friend Sid who informs me that there are no banns in existence today.
I am going to stop my search for Wilsons in the area because I am now convinced that Mr Wilson was Avica's father and that she chose to take his name rather than her mothers. He could have been anyone, Wilson being a fantastically common name.
Alternatively of course, Avica could have been brought up by some people called Wilson if her mother was in service elsewhere and took their name on, then passing it to her son.
But for those of you familiar with my other thread about Joseph Lister you will realise this is an avenue I simply refuse to go down again.
So it is decided, any lines back from Avica will be Simpson lines and I shall have to let the male line go.
Our only remaining unsolved mystery in this link then is to learn who Hannah Masters was before she married. This matters for two reasons
1. She seemed to have Avica's son William Wilson or Masters living or staying with her
2. She was born in Fifield, Oxfordshire, where Avica was born.
We had opined that she might be Avica's mother but it would have required some very artful lying about her age and a bit of a name change, so we were not quite convinced.
But then again, all my family, on both sides, have made a speciality out of changing their names and ages....
I had said I would try to get the Harbury parish registers on fiche to have a look at, I have not been able to do this.
I will however try and find time to go back to the library to have another look at the fiche for Fifield to see if there are any other potential Hannah/Ann women born in Fifield that might be a better match.
Best wishes
Louise
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Well there is good news and bad news
The good news is that a friend of mine lent me a microfiche viewer (I bet you all wish you had friends like mine) and I have spent some time looking at the fiche of Fifield births, marriages and deaths.
There were on average five or six children baptised in each year - that suggests a very small village to me. Probably marginally more were girls than boys so probably 3 girls a year were baptised in each year. They were called, almost without exception, Hannah, Ann, Mary and Elizabeth.
There were no other names worth mentioning in 50 years of baptisms from about 1750 to about 1800.
Many Hannahs and Anns were born to the same family and a check of the deaths did not show that the earlier daughter had died. I do not think that in this village the name was interchangeable.
So I surmise that Hannah Masters nee Unknown (correction, we know she was nee Simpson but somehow I forgot that when I wrote this post) was probably not Ann Simpson. But could of course have been Avica's (or Ann's) best friend, neighbour, other relative, and still they could have been related without being mother and daughter. I cannot speculate as to Hannah's identity as there were tens of Hannahs and tens of Anns born in the fifty years I looked at.
I am sure there was some connection though, a small village in common and the one a foster parent for the other's child.
Without my ever seeing the Harbury registers I do not think we shall progress with this
Regards
Louise
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Just for the record John 'Symson' ag lab aged 49 was in Fifield on the 1851 census with his wife Sarah aged 46 - no children. They were the only Simpsons in the village. However in Hampton in Arden Warwickshire there was William Simpson an ag lab born circa 1785 Fifield and his daughter Elizabeth born circa 1826 in Hampton. There was also Amy Simpson born circa 1783 Fifield and unmarried staying with her blind pauper sister Ann Heritage born Fifield circa 1781. They were in Chilson and Pudlicott Oxfordshire.
Regards
Valda
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That is wonderful Valda, thank you very much.
I will enter the information onto my special database for census entries.
Isn't Heritage a fabulous surname
Regards
Louise
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...
Isn't Heritage a fabulous surname
Hi Louise,
I just checked the local Adelaide metropolitan whitepages (i.e. telephone directory) on the Internet at:
http://www.whitepages.com.au
and there are 31 listings for HERITAGE. I had no idea there would be so many. And, as it happens, I know one of them! And when I first heard the surname it struck me too as fabulous. I've just looked in the IGI and there are plenty. But a search in the NSW metropolitan area (Sydney being our biggest city) only produces 7 entries for the name; and the Victorian metropolitan area (Melbourne being second in size) only 19. Genealogy throws up all sorts of interesting stuff!
Well, it's probably nothing to do with the beauteous Avica (with a name like that, Avica must have surely have been beauteous as well as mysterious) ... ::)
JAP
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Just for the record John 'Symson' ag lab aged 49 was in Fifield on the 1851 census with his wife Sarah aged 46 - no children. They were the only Simpsons in the village. However in Hampton in Arden Warwickshire there was William Simpson an ag lab born circa 1785 Fifield and his daughter Elizabeth born circa 1826 in Hampton. There was also Amy Simpson born circa 1783 Fifield and unmarried staying with her blind pauper sister Ann Heritage born Fifield circa 1781. They were in Chilson and Pudlicott Oxfordshire.
Regards
Valda
Just to confirm that Ann Simpson's parents were
William Simpson and Susannah
Ann was baptised 1773
Her siblings were
Emy (sic) bapt 1777
Richard bapt 1779
Elizabeth bapt 1784
James bapt 1785
William bapt 1786
So the William you found on the census is probably Ann's brother.
I don't have any John Simpson's at the moment, but he could be the son of James, Richard or William as above. I will check the Fifield fiche again later.
I don't have an Amy Simpson at all and she would have been born between Richard and Elizabeth if she was a sibling. I don't think she is a sibling because her sister Ann now Mrs Heritage is 8 years younger than Avica's mother. But one must assume they are at least cousins to some degree. Fifield was a tiny little place as I have said before, judging by the paucity of baptisms. I will have a look for her on the fiche too, just for interest.
Incidentally I am having second thoughts about Hannah/Ann Simpson who married William Masters in Harbury.
I have noticed, or redrawn my own attention to the fact that when William and Hannah had their daughter Mary Ann baptised, the vicar called Hannah "Ann."
So perhaps it is not Fifield that cannot tell the difference between Hannah and Ann, but the vicar of Harbury.
I cannot really get over the coincidence of the only William Wilson or William Masters in the village of Harbury in 1841 aged 15, staying with a woman whose maiden name is Simpson and who comes from Fifield, while his mother is also a Simpson from Fifield. Then there is the coincidence of baptism dates for Mary Ann and William.
How much more proof do we think we want?
To recap
Ann Simpson was baptised in 1773
Hannah Masters was born approx 1791 in 1841, aged 50, Ann would have been 68
approx 1786 in 1851, aged 66, Ann would have been 78
approx 1782 in 1861, aged 79, Ann would have been 88.
Now you cannot be baptised before you are born, so she had to have been born no later than 1773.
Avica was born in 1800 making Ann 27 that year.
Mary Ann was born in 1814 making Ann 41 that year - which might be why they only had one child?
If Ann and Hannah are the same woman, was she trying to hide the gap between her and her husband? A long liver if she lived to 88 plus, but then Avica lived to 93.
If they are not the same woman then I would suggest that Hannah could be the sister of Amy and Ann who Valda found on the 1851 census elsewhere in Oxfordshire and none of them were baptised, or at least not in Fifield.
That being the case Ann and Hannah could be cousins and it is still quite possible that Avica entrusted baby William to his male relative and her mother's cousin.
Thoughts?
JAP - ask your friend if s/he is related to any Heritage family from Oxfordshire! I see there are 57 entries with my own family name in NSW. Very interesting.
Best wishes
Louise
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John Simpson in Fifield 1851 (who I also found there before in 1861) is 5 years out (birth circa 1801 in 1861) for Avica's brother - John Hayward Simpson, but in the scheme of things for ages in Fifield may still be a candidate.
Ann Heritage and her sister Amy died in 1857
Heritage, Ann 1857 March Deaths Chipping Norton
Simpson, Amy 1857 December Deaths Chipping Norton
So unfortunately I can't check their ages against those given in the 1851 census index (and Chilson is not on the National Burial index). I can't find a marriage for Ann on the IGI but then Oxfordshire has poor coverage. Therefore not really enough evidence to say one way or the other whether the sisters were the age given on the 1851 census or older. Oxfordhsire Family History Society has indexed the whole of Oxfordhsire 1841 census which would give an age of the sisters (if they are together) to a rough 5 years.
Regards
Valda
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From the OFHS transcript in Chilson
HERITAGE Ann 60 Y
SIMPSON Amy 50 Y
Hope that helps
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The Simpson women got me out of bed early this morning, they were clamouring in my brain!
I am afraid I have just made a fool of myself in front of the watching world.
"Emy" is obviously "Amy".
I dont know why I didnt think of that, I suppose I thought it was probably Emily.
But it is obviously Amy.
Amy Simpson, sister of Ann Simpson and Aunt of Avica, baptised 1777.
One can only assume they were not numerate in this family as they never seem to know how old they are.
But I have brought myself to the new view that Ann Heritage is in fact Avica's mother. Hannah Simpson it now occurs to me could be a widow, having been married to a Mr Simpson before she married William Masters. Maybe she was married to James or Richard and was Ann and Amy's sister-in-law?
Thanks to Sleat for looking up the 1841 census, much appreciated.
It would give Ann Heritage a birth year of 1777 - 1785 which is 4 years out with the parish registers.
It would give Amy Simpson a birth year of 1787 - 1795 which is also 4 years out.
But I can live with that - I wonder if the transcripted registers are wrong?
Gosh, what a lucky stroke Valda finding that census entry (and don't you get up early in your house, did the Simpson's wake you up too?)
Best wishes
Louise
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These are the Oxfordshire Family History Society indexes
http://searches.oxfordshirefhs.org.uk/
with interactive map which gives parish coverage for each index. The marriage index for the county is virtually 100% at least up to 1837 - not many baptisms for Fifield but more burial coverage, but this might only be in the period you hold anyway. You should be able to find an Ann Simpson marriage to a Heritage and any later Simpson marriages in Fifield and perhaps further burials. Chilson (a parish away from Fifield) would seem either not to have deposited its registers or lost them. The indexes should also cover non-conformist registers e.g. Chipping Norton Methodist circuit which might be worth examing for any other children of William and Susannah.
Have we checked the William Masters, Hannah Simpson marriage? I didn't think there was any reason to suspect Hannah was a widow on this marriage?
Regards
Valda
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Valda
I have rechecked the parish register for the marriage in Harbury, via a friend. It merely says "William Masters and Hannah Simpson, both of this parish". So it tells us nothing.
I suspect we will never be exactly sure who she is.
I will have a good dig through the indexes this weekend
Best wishes
Louise
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1851 Census
Chilson and Pudlicott, Oxfordshire
Ann Heritage, head, widow, pauper, 70, born Fifield, blind
Amy Simson, sister, unmarried, 68, born Fifield
1841 Census
Township of Chilson
Ann Heritage, 60
Amy Simpson, 50
Both born in Oxfordshire
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Hi Louise
Well there you are - Fifield!
Regards
Valda
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Harbury Baptisms
07mar1828 Mary Ann, dau of William and Ann MASTERS, a labourer of Harbury
07mar1828 William, son of Stephen MASTERS, a labourer of Harbury, and Erica WILLSON, a spinster of Harbury
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Hi Valda
I reread this thread earlier today, for pleasure, and realised that I had not actually got to the bottom of it, but 5 years have passed and more data is online now. It seems worth taking a second look.
I was wondering if I could find out more about Ann Heritage nee Simpson and maybe try again to identify the mysterious Hannah Simpson.
How have you been? I see you are a champion poster!
Love and best wishes, Louise
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Hi Louise
I've ended up mainly further south over the last couple of years on the London and Middlesex and Surrey boards
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,24.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,36.0.html
and I occasional show on the more general boards
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,47.0.html
For Hannah's marriage it may still be a matter of asking for a lookup in the Oxfordshire Family History Society's database
http://searches.oxfordshirefhs.org.uk/
Regards
Valda
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I have emailed the FHS and asked them to find the marriage of Ann Simpson to Mr Heritage, and I thought I would ask them to find William Simpson's to Susannah too, for the next generation.
I have also asked them if they have bastardy bonds.
I will let you know as soon as there is any news
Re London and Surrey, I was doing some research on behalf of a friend last year, Dunnette, I seem to recall your helping me with that too!
You are a wonderful woman
Best wishes, Louise
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I have just had a response from Oxfordshire FHS, the gentleman who picked up my email is himself named Simpson and comes from Liverpool where I now live, so he really put himself out for me and searched for all sorts of stuff, more than I asked him for, what a guy!
Anyway, I can tell you that there is no record in Oxfordshire of a marriage between William Simpson and Susannah.
Ann Simpson married Thomas Heritage in Glympton in Oxfordshire in 1817
From Alan
14 Sep 1817
By banns
HERITAGE Thomas(x) o.t.p.
SIMPSON Ann(x) o.t.p.
Witnesses Ann(x) NEIL, Jamed(x) NEIL
(N.B. Although the typescript gived Jamed as the second witness name, I would suspect given the proximity of S and D on the keyboard, that this is probably a typing error for James. As you can see from the (x), neither Thomas nor Ann, nor their witnesses was able to sign their names. In Ann's case, she had the excuse, as indicated by later cesus entries, that she was blind.)
And yes, he had looked up the census and provided me with the entries I found earlier tonight, as well!
Ann and Thomas Heritage also baptised a son, Thomas in 1817, according to Alan, in Glympton. He did not give me a date for that, but with a wedding in September and a baptism before the end of the year, she was obviously pregnant at the wedding, third time lucky, getting the father to marry her! She would have been 44, a hell of an age to be having another child.
Alan reminds me that Ann was blind, but I am inclined to think that may have been late developing, through cataracts for instance, I dont feel confident that a blind woman would have three children to three different men.
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Any one know of Henry Simpson and wife's Abigail and Adelaide- about 7 son and 1 daughter- Anything on his parents all living in Birmingham Warwickshire? how far the family goes back living there.... Tks Patricia
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UPDATE: For anyone following this thread in the future
I have now discovered some more baptisms in Fifield
Ann Simpson was baptised June 7th 1773 to William Simpson and Suzanne
Hannah Simpson was baptised October 14th 1781, a daughter of William Simpson (no mother named)
So it looks very much as though Ann, who later married Thomas Heritage and bore him one son, and who died a few months before her spinster sister Amy in Chipping Norton, is the mother of Avic/a Wilson and John Hayward Simpson.
And Hannah who married William Masters was her younger sister, and Avic/a's aunt.