RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Romilly on Monday 10 December 18 14:10 GMT (UK)
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Following an Ancestry DNA test... I'm now wondering if the reason I've never been able to find a Birth or Baptism for my late Grandfather, - was because he was Registered under another name...
He was William James Wilson, apparantly Born Manchester in (Approx) 1860/'61.
DNA would suggest that I must have had one Great, (or Great Great) Grandparent with Jewish Ancestry. Is there any way of checking Jewish Births for this period in Manchester?
Cheers, Romilly.
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Failure to register a birth only became a fineable offence in 1874/75 so many births were unregistered. My paternal grandmother was born in 1877 and I have her baptism but no birth registration for her despite a manual search of the GRO index
Births of Jewish children (if registered) would be on the GRO index
Did he marry in a synagogue?
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No, he Married in a Church of England.
It's quite possible that his Birth wasn't registered, but it's very curious that he's completely invisible until his Marriage in Swansea in 1893.
I've been trying to find him for about the last 40yrs. The DNA test was a final resort!
I only have 7% Jewish DNA, but I think that would denote one Great, or Great Great Grandparent. It just occurred to me that a name change must have been involved.
Romilly.
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Does he name a father on his marriage cert?
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Does he name a father on his marriage cert?
Yes, - William Wilson, (Deceased) Occupation: Mason.
The only problem is that he doesn't seem to exist:-(
And the 2 Witnesses are the Bride's Father and Sister.
Romilly.
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Have you looked at census to be sure where he was born as sometimes this a start to work back from.
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Creasegirl- the only Censuses that I can find him on are the 1901 and 1911 Censuses for Swansea. He's at 113 St Helens Road on the 1901 and 99 St Helens Road on the 1911.
I'm unable to find him anywhere until his Marriage to my Grandmother Margaret Rees in Swansea in June 1893. On the Marriage Cert he gives his Father as, 'William Wilson, (Deceased) Occupation: Mason'.
I should add that I've been Posting about him on here since I joined RC in 2005, - but I still can't find him:-(
Romilly.
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Does the census say where he was born. I just wondered if they could be in Scottish records if you can't find anywhere else
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Here are those censuses Creasegirl.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01n5l/
1901 b 1860 Manchester William J Wilson
1911 b 1861 Manchester William James Wilson
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Hi
What siblings of WJW were there?
Ray
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Hi
See Romilly's reply #16 :'(
There's this . . . . .
1871
Ulverston, West Broughton, Dist6, RG10 4246 / 66 / p13
Friars Ground, Kirkby Ireleth, Lancashire, England
William Wilson 45 Slate Quarrier
Elizabeth Wilson 46
* William J Wilson 10
Jane Wilson 8
* Isaac Wilson 6
George Wilson 4
* Agnes Wilson 2
Slate Quarrier = Mason ?
* mmn Brunton born Ulverstone
William Wilson / Elizabeth Brunton
m1850 Ulverston QS 25 2011851 HO107 2275 285 P26 Kirkby I
WW + EW + dau Anne 1
Ray
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Thanks Heywood.
I know that I've asked about him many times before...
I just thought it might be worth exploring this avenue in the light of the DNA. (It can only come from that side, as all other sides are relatively straightforward to find).
I still think that a name change is the most likely explanation, but of course there was no legal requirement about that in Victorian times.
Romilly.
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Hi Romilly,
I would agree with you about the name change. I've seen this a lot with the Jewish community. It's not just a surname that changes but often a first name as well :-\
However! What I would do is look for a burial. Was it in a Non-conformist section of a burial ground or maybe at a Jewish Cemetery? Maybe there is some information to be found in this manner.
Have a look here and have see if any of this might be of use.
https://www.manchester.gov.uk/info/324/family_history_searches/7375/jewish_records
What about his siblings? Have you any details about them?
Good luck
CD
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Hi CD,
Many thanks for your helpful suggestions. There's no problem with tracing my Grandfather after he Married my Grandmother in 1893. It's before then that's the problem!
He's in Kelley's South Wales Directories from 1895 - 1930 with a listing for his Painting and Decorating Company, 'Wilson and Co'. I've found Newspaper Articles in the 'South Wales Press' for potential Bankruptcy and Invention Patents in 1889. He's on the 1901 and 1911 Censuses in Swansea.
I have his Death Cert, - he Died in Hendon, Middx on the 29th December 1937 aged 77yrs. He's apparantly Buried in Kingsbury, - although the Church denies that he's there(!)
Romilly.
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Hi
St Andrews, Kingsbury graves are an overgrown mess.
Mostly with no grave markers of any kind.
My own grandmother is there too, and cannot be found.
I'm not surprised that they have no documentation for WJW other than the burial entry ( with no target plot )
BTW
"Redhill House" (where he died) aka Edgware General Hospital , Burnt Oak, Edgware.
(now Edgware Community Hosp),
Ray
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Thanks Ray for the further info...
Until the 1911 Census became available, I thought that I had found my Grandfather in Kirkby Ireleth, as per your Post. However, on the 1911 Census the William James Wilson there is still single, still living at home.(He never Married and Died there too). Whereas my Grandfather William James Wilson is Married and living in Swansea with my Grandmother and six sons, (including my late Father).
Yes, it's very sad about the Churchyard at St Andrews, Kingsbury:-( I've wandered round it too...
I did finally get a reply from a Church Warden there, and they said they had no record at all of my Grandparents. My Grandmother was Buried there in 1934, - I would imagine that they are Buried side by side.
Cheers, Romilly.
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Hi
So that must be him in 1930's at 101 Barnhill Road, Wembley Park. ?
( and Northwick Park? )
Very close to St Andrews Church
Other occupants were Florence and Frank William Wilson.
He is still listed in 1939 Electoral (not NHS version) presumably natural delay of updating roll after he died.
Again, close proximity to various old homes of mine.
Ray
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Yes Ray,
They moved to Barnhill Road, Wembley in 1931/'32 from Swansea, after the suicide, (at home) of their youngest son Archie Wilson.
After Margaret's Death in March 1934, they moved to 57 Park Lane, Wembley. (Still there, but all the numbers have changed now).
As I've said, there's no problem with tracing him after his Marriage in 1893. That's why it's so frustrating that I can't find him anywhere before that...:-(
Romilly.
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Hi
Just building a potential profile.
Why did he move to NWLondon?Was Frank closely related? Son?
I think that the "religious" link must be a lot wider/further back than you think.
R
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Hi Again Ray,
- It's very difficult for me to know the answers to your questions, because my late Father, (son of William James Wilson) died when I was five. As he was almost 30 yrs older than my Mother, - there was no one left alive to ask when I started to try to find out about them.
I don't think that the Frank and Florence at Barnhill Road Wembley were related to my Grandparents. I think that William James and Margaret Wilson were living there with their sons, William Havelock Wilson, Evan Douglas Wilson, Ernest Rencella Wilson, George Felix Wilson and Richard Wilson. They lived there from 1931 - 1934 I think. They moved to Park Lane after Margaret Wilson's death. Perhaps Frank and Florence were other tenants? Are you sure they were Wilson as well?
I think that it was due to the Wembley Exhibition, 'The White City' etc that the family moved to Wembley. William James Wilson had a Painting and Decorating Company, but he was also branching out as a Building Contractor, and George Felix Wilson was training as an Architect... Wembley must have presented a lot of opportunities I suppose? I was born there, but it's changed beyond recognition now...
Romilly.
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Hi
I too lived there for the first 25 years of my life.
Brother and lots of friends still there
My Father has not long passed and lived off Barn Hill
As did In-Laws
"The Empire Exhibition" and Stadium development was mid-1920s (23/24/25?) not 1930's.
More than willing to send the elect.roll copy.(pm your email address?)There's also an address in Northwick (Park/Road) where his (WJW) name appears.
Maybe it is as simple as "potential earnings, let's go to Wembley"
My main point is that no closer "Jewish" links appear.
Ray
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https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1795/40020_605905_1492-00324?pid=286653077&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D1795%26h%3D286653077%26tid%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DFwf78%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Fwf78&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true
London England Electoral Registers 1832 - 1965
1937
101 Barnhill Road
129 Rw Dw Wilson, Florence
130 R - Wilson, Frank William
131 R O Wilson, William James
Ray
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Thanks Ray.
I think that the 1937 William James Wilson is a different one.
From 1934 - 1957 members of my family lived at 57 Park Lane Wembley. (By Edward VII Park).
On my Grandfather's Death Cert in December 1937 his Address is 57 Park Lane Wembley. The Informant is my late Uncle George Felix Wilson.
Due to the brick wall with my Wilson Grandfather, I persuaded my younger sister and two first cousins from my Father's side to all take DNA tests. The results show 4%, 5%, 7% and 9% Jewish DNA + British Isles DNA. Cousins and Uncles from from my Mother's side have no Jewish DNA. And so the Jewish DNA must come from the Wilson side. I'm just not sure how far back though...
Romilly.
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Hi Romilly,
With regard to your Jewish Roots and DNA testing -
I'm sketchy on the DNA however do they not provide you with names that have the similar DNA sequencing when you do the testing? For example, on FTDNA you get assigned to a group and therefore you have a pool of names? This is useful in your instance where we really need the original name. Maybe it was a Ancestry DNA test that your family did? Isn't GEDMATCH the one everyone uses to increase their pool of results? https://www.yourdnaguide.com/upload-to-gedmatch. Just a thought
CD
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Hi CD,
If only DNA testing was that straightforward!
Yes, I've uploaded my Ancestry DNA result to GEDMATCH, My Heritage, FamilyTree and Living. Most of them give you a list of 'Matches', although most of them are too low to be significant. You can message these people, but you can't make them reply.
If your Matches have put Trees up, you can check the names. But because I'm stuck with my Wilson Grandfather, I don't have any names further back:-(
Romilly.
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It's very helpful that your sister and cousins have also had DNA tests. Have they also uploaded to MyHeritage?
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It's very helpful that your sister and cousins have also had DNA tests. Have they also uploaded to MyHeritage?
Hi Hurworth,
I've explained how to do it, but I doubt that most of them will...
Romilly :-\