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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: estiman on Wednesday 12 December 18 00:11 GMT (UK)
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Hi all. I have identified an 1854 burial record, which I am reasonably certain is one of mine. However, it is water damaged. It is held at the LMA and, although I have tried to view the original, I am informed that its condition does not allow this. The microfilm image is much worse than that viewable on Ancestry.
The original image and an enhanced version are both attached. I am interested in the 'abode' of the first record but I have noticed that the second record seems to have a similar entry under 'abode'. There was a cholera outbreak, which was the cause of death for 'mine', which makes me think it was also the cause of the second person's death. I can't make out the name of this person, otherwise I would have tried the 1851 census. Any help much appreciated.
Her address in 1851 was King St, Swk. Relations were in Green St & Birds Court, Green St. All together in the same area. She died in hospital, unfortunately (St Thomas').
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Hello
The Abode place in the address is Southwark.
Mark
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Try
Gravel Lane, Southwark
Mark
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Gravel Lane, Southwark
Entry 585
Hannah
Wad ? ? ?
Entry 586
Harriet
Holl ? ? ?
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Thanks, Bushinn1746. Unfortunately, the only Gravel Lane I can see in 1850's is up in Middlesex, not Southwark, and she's definitely Southwark.
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Gravel Lane, Southwark
1851 Kelly's Directory (transcript)
https://sculpture.gla.ac.uk/view/place.php?id=msib1_1231167580
https://pubshistory.com/LondonPubs/SouthwarkChristchurch/index.shtml
Scroll down page, or Control F, search ...
George, 88 Gravel
Hope,
Kings Head,
Prince & Princess,
Tailors Arms,
White Hart,
Thomas Kaley ... late of the Hope, Gravel-Lane, Southwark, Surrey, Victualler. [1823]
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8g1KAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA1124&lpg=PA1124&dq=%22Hope,+Gravel+Lane%22+Southwark&source=bl&ots=bURXw640ZU&sig=m3QWr14hVyPGj2PTsHVsrkKowAw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjh0OWCmpnfAhWBsHEKHbvhBqAQ6AEwAXoECAYQAQ
Gravel Lane, Southwark, agreement and bond between the wardens and Messrs James and Jonathan Coleman and Joseph Ramsdale, builders, concerning erection of new almshouses.
Feb 1852
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/69ad260f-cc17-418d-a4f4-b2b983d93b24
The borough of Southwark: Charities
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/surrey/vol4/pp161-162
Has references to Gravel Lane
Mark
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As mark has said, Gravel Lane was indeed in Southwark.
But it seems that it became Holland Street at some time in the 1800's.
You can see Gravel Lane on this old map (below The Green Walk. The name appears upside down).
http://alondoninheritance.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Founder-6a-with-spot.jpg
Possibly although re-named it was still popularly known by the old name? It certainly appears as Holland Street on maps of the 1860's. https://maps.nls.uk/view/102345964#zoom=6&lat=2846&lon=6748&layers=BT
It was in the registration district of St Olave Southwark.
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Possibly although re-named it was still popularly known by the old name? It certainly appears as Holland Street on maps of the 1860's.
From the South London Chronicle - Saturday 02 July 1898
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Possibly although re-named it was still popularly known by the old name? It certainly appears as Holland Street on maps of the 1860's.
From the South London Chronicle - Saturday 02 July 1898
In that case, where was it? All the searches I've done indicate that the name was changed to Holland Street.
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Hello
Justices report, that the highway called Gravel Lane lying between the parishes of St Saviour Southwark and Christ Church, both within the weekly Bills of Mortality, was fit to be paved
1739
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/dcb66421-fab3-4090-8483-017b3a12edf0
Middlesex is on the Northern side and SURREY is on the Southern side of the River Thames, according to a plaque on the Bridge over The Thames.
Mark
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Hello
Justices report, that the highway called Gravel Lane lying between the parishes of St Saviour Southwark and Christ Church, both within the weekly Bills of Mortality, was fit to be paved
1739
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/dcb66421-fab3-4090-8483-017b3a12edf0
Middlesex is on the Northern side and SURREY is on the Southern side of the River Thames, according to a plaque on the Bridge over The Thames.
Mark
Southwark, the Parish and Gravel Lane, are on the South side of The Thames.
Can the Poster give us the Cemetery / Burial Register name, please?
Although that might not always help.
Mark
ADDED: The Gravel Lane, London, of today is North side of Thames and must be another.
We can rule this out. Not in Southwark ...
Gravel Lane, Whitechapel London, E1 7AW
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Justices report, that the highway called Gravel Lane lying between the parishes of St Saviour Southwark and Christ Church, both within the weekly Bills of Mortality, was fit to be paved
1739
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/dcb66421-fab3-4090-8483-017b3a12edf0
Gravel Lane, Southwark (left side of map, running top to bottom more or less)
On the South side of The Thames, click on link and click on map and left click on the map to + (enlarge).
Map is/was for Sale
https://picclick.co.uk/Antique-maps-Parishes-of-St-Saviours-Southwark-and-182149143915.html
Mark
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Hi all. Thanks everyone for all the inputs. it does, indeed, look like it may be Gravel Lane (unless some-one comes up with an alternative?).
Burial Record is for St James-the-Less Bethnal Green:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1559/31281_A100675-00039?pid=443479&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D1559%26h%3D443479%26tid%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DgHy1025%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=gHy1025&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true
First entry at the top. Name Hannah Wadmore (Ancestry transcribed as Weidmore). There are several other entries from Southwark - there was a cholera outbreak, which may be relevant.
Last confirmed address for Hannah was in King Street (next to St George's workhouse), which places her south-south-east of Holland Street. Her relatives are located to the west of her, near Blackfriars.
Thanks for the references, Mark - in particular the first one from Glasgow University re sculpture location in Gravel Lane in 1851. When I looked at the link there was the option to view on the map, but all I got was a blank rectangle :( This may be because of my antiquated PC (and I mean antiquated - I still use XP!!!) Now when I try your link it seems to want me to log in. If that map link were to work that would solve the location problem for Gravel Lane.
PS I have asked if some-one from the conservation team at the LMA might be willing to look and give an interpretation (without responsibility for the interpretation). Would be a nice Christmas present but not very hopeful.
Ray
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Possibly although re-named it was still popularly known by the old name? It certainly appears as Holland Street on maps of the 1860's.
From the South London Chronicle - Saturday 02 July 1898
In that case, where was it? All the searches I've done indicate that the name was changed to Holland Street.
You can see Gravel Lane on the 1872 map at https://maps.nls.uk/view/103313045#zoom=6&lat=9758&lon=5783&layers=BT
Now Great Suffolk Street.
Stan
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Interesting one, Mark. I couldn't see a date but obviously, as it says, it's old. Don't think I want to rush out and buy it for £200!!! Difficult to relate it to mid 19th century (I use the Motco cd of Stanford's map as a first port of call). However, if this Gravel Lane survived into the 19th c, then it doesn't correspond to the location of Holland Street. It'd be great if the 1851 Glasgow University reference for Gravel Lane could be viewed on their map - right name, right period.
Ray
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Hadn't seen yours before my last post. That seems to solve it! Gravel Lane is the continuation of Holland Street, going southwards, which also brings it in close proximity to her relatives. Good one, Stan. Thanks
I just hope that everyone agrees that the almost illegible address is, in fact, Gravel Lane, for it certainly looks like it
Thank you everyone :) :)
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Hello
There were Alms Houses in Gravel Lane, perhaps the sick were taken there, or your ancestors had moved?
A person does not always die at their residence.
I'm quite confident the addresses are Gravel Lane, Southwark. Definitely beginning G r (that is definitely a small r in old hand)
The letter a in effect is formed of the curly part and the straight stick almost in two parts, the v in one is almost rounded, but in the other one definitely open at the top, giving Grav and I can just make out el.
Look at the a in Hannah and I agree I could see the surname beginning Wad --- I changed it shortly after posting last night, once I have worked out the letter a was in effect formed almost in two halves (unjoined at top, seen this before for a). [Added, the transcriber made the letter a two letters, because a was unjoined at the top, but it is a]
I could see Gravel Lane, Southwark early on and after the letter analysis of all images, I believe it to be that and the map shows Gravel Lane, forms the boundary of Southwark (spelt South Wark on the old map extract posted) and Christ Church, exactly as the quote when it was fit to be paved in 1739.
My 19th Century links tie up too.
Mark
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Possibly although re-named it was still popularly known by the old name? It certainly appears as Holland Street on maps of the 1860's.
From the South London Chronicle - Saturday 02 July 1898
In that case, where was it? All the searches I've done indicate that the name was changed to Holland Street.
You can see Gravel Lane on the 1872 map at https://maps.nls.uk/view/103313045#zoom=6&lat=9758&lon=5783&layers=BT
Now Great Suffolk Street.
Stan
Thanks Stan. Following Gravel Lane northwards it becomes Holland Street, which I mentioned in my first post on this topic, so it is clearly a continuation of the Gravel Lane shown on the plan I linked to.
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Justices report, that the highway called Gravel Lane lying between the parishes of St Saviour Southwark and Christ Church, both within the weekly Bills of Mortality, was fit to be paved
1739
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/dcb66421-fab3-4090-8483-017b3a12edf0
Gravel Lane, Southwark (left side of map, running top to bottom more or less)
On the South side of The Thames, click on link and click on map and left click on the map to + (enlarge).
Map is/was for Sale
https://picclick.co.uk/Antique-maps-Parishes-of-St-Saviours-Southwark-and-182149143915.html
Mark
Mark, the Gravel Lane you have identified is exactly the same one as on the map I linked to in my first reply :)
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As mark has said, Gravel Lane was indeed in Southwark.
You can see Gravel Lane on this old map (below The Green Walk. The name appears upside down).
http://alondoninheritance.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Founder-6a-with-spot.jpg
JenB
Your Gravel Lane in the top link, is the wrong side of the River Thames, for Gravel Lane, Southwark.
Mark
SORRY, looks like your link hasn't turned yours North to the top!
Mark
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It is on the correct side of the River! The map on the page I linked to was wrongly orientated and I could do nothing about that.
I am a geographer by training. I know that Southwark is south of the river and that the map I linked to showed Gravel Lane, Southwark.
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Hello Jen
I noticed my comment regarding your map link was wrong, before you posted & put a correction on, with a sorry.
Mark
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PPS
I had another look at the Motco 'Stanford 1862' map. Now I know where the Southwark Gravel Lane is, I was able to locate it on their map. However, Motco's index doesn't show it - only the one in Whitechapel. A lot of time and your collective efforts could have been saved if Motco had got it right!
Ray
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Map Link from Jen, turned.
Awfully Sorry Jen.
You will see Maid Lane off Gravel Lane (Jen's), was Maidon in the other map (p.2 of Thread).
Pye Garden on both maps too.
(Red dot on original)
Mark
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Unfortunately, the only Gravel Lane I can see in 1850's is up in Middlesex, not Southwark, and she's definitely Southwark.
Gravel Lane Southwark appears on the 1851 census, starting at HO 107 / 1558 / 558/ 53, and on the 1861 starting at RG 9/ 314/ 82/ 6. It also appears on subsequent censuses.
I retract everything I said about it being re-named ;D The maps make it clear that the northern end was re-named and the southern part remained Gravel Lane.
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Hi Mark.
It seems the Alms Houses in Gravel Lane were founded in 1863 ('Mrs Vaughan's Charity') some 9 years after Hannah's death.
Ray
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Hi JenB.
This may sound fairly basic but how do I access the census reference HO 107 / 1558 / 558/ 53 that you gave?
I no longer subscribe to FindMyPast, which used to have a road search for censuses, and that may be how you found the reference. Is there any way I can get there through Ancestry? Or I may have to start thinking about reviving my FindMyPast subscription - the cross-references were always useful.
Ray
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Hi JenB.
This may sound fairly basic but how do I access the census reference HO 107 / 1558 / 558/ 53 that you gave?
I no longer subscribe to FindMyPast, which used to have a road search for censuses, and that may be how you found the reference. Is there any way I can get there through Ancestry? Or I may have to start thinking about reviving my FindMyPast subscription - the cross-references were always useful.
Ray
Just go to the Ancestry census search for each specific year, and enter the numbers in the appropriate boxes for piece, folio and page.
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Hi Mark.
It seems the Alms Houses in Gravel Lane were founded in 1863 ('Mrs Vaughan's Charity') some 9 years after Hannah's death.
Ray
Hello Ray
See also 1705 & 1812 for earlier Alms Houses, Gravel Lane:-
Southwark
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/surrey/vol4/pp161-162
I'm not saying they died there, it was just a suggestion, just in case they were still running and if any documents might have survived?
The 1812 Alms Houses, Gravel Lane, were linked to Rowland Hill, Minister of the Chapel of Lady Huntingdon's Connexion. Lady Huntingdon and Rowland Hill, were Methodists.
Rowland Hill, Methodist (London 1799)
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VcVLAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA540&lpg=PA540&dq=%22Rowland+Hill,+Methodist%22&source=bl&ots=tWg1CrwX2F&sig=3AGC1mIyGw8-LETrta1ngWwzTrM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjAvOLYpZvfAhWCzaQKHS7jBn0Q6AEwC3oECAcQAQ
Mark
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Hi again JenB.
Ok. Pretend I can just about turn on a computer... I have gone to the Ancestry 1851 census search page but can see no options or boxes to enter piece, folio and page. When you gave the reference before I looked for such options but only those for personal details are available. There is no button for 'advanced search' for example. Do we have the same screen?
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Don't use the 1851 UK Census Collection page, go to the 1851 England Census page, selected from the list Included data collections: at the bottom.
Then you will see a list of boxes for various entries, including those for piece, folio, and page number.
Stan
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Do we have the same screen?
The page you describe sounds like the 'UK Census Collection' page which is a general search across all censuses. You need to go to the drop-down list underneath this, and specifically select census year in which you are interested. Then, as Stan has said, you will clearly see the boxes for piece, folio and page numbers.
Added: I wrote this before Stan edited what he'd written. :)
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Thanks guys, so obvious, really. Now I know why I got a bit part in "Dumb and Dumber". ;D
Cheers,
Ray
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Well that makes two of us then :D
My excuse is that I haven't had an Ancestry sub for very long (ahem, only 15 months)!
Carol