RootsChat.Com
Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: Prouty99 on Wednesday 12 December 18 08:30 GMT (UK)
-
Hi all. I have been having a go with this one but I fear it may be beyond my own skill although just messing with contrast and brightness it does actually give me hope that something may be done with this.
Pretty sure it's from the UK somewhere and obviously a mining scene but dating isn't my forte unfortunately. I will see if I can narrow down the time frame and a bit more info as to who these guys are from the relative that gave me this the other day. This was sent to me via a mobile phone so I presume that the megapixel count is quite high. I do have a TIF version of this (6 meg) but i'm cautious of the file size limits on roots chat.
I wouldn't have posted this anywhere else as from past history of my activity here I know that this is where the real restoration experts are so I hope someone can help with this
-
I've not done anything with it except a curves adjustment. I don't know the forum rules on this, but maybe you could upload the tif to 'Dropbox' and post a link here.
My first instinct is that these are farm hands. Probably fruit pickers.
-
Like Andy, I've done very little to this apart from adjusting it in PS Camera Raw and blotting out a few marks, so it's not a restore. I hope that you can post it to dropbox, as he suggests.
I also agree that it's more like and agricultural group rather than a mining group.
Gadget
-
Thanks for the reply. I can upload the TIF to dropbox if the forum allows that, maybe a moderator could clarify this.
i made it about as far as you did altering the curves and messing with hue colour and saturation which does actually bring out some detail, and now that detail has become somewhat clearer I'm starting to wonder about the occupation too. They do look like farm workers don't they? Also I'm starting to wonder if the person in the centre of the back row is actually a female. I guess this wouldn't be out of the question with mining as the pit brow lasses were somewhat famous in that occupation but farming? I'm no expert on farming and the appearance of women in the farming community
I'm also a little confused as to the posture of this 'woman' I get the feeling that she may be a little too well dressed and may be sitting kind of side saddle on something...
Could she actually be in charge of this group?
This photo is now getting really interesting. I haven't been able to get in touch as yet with the person who sent me this who I'm sure could shed some light on this photo so I'm wondering about what era this would have been
I have gone as far as I could with my own efforts at restoring this, I've removed a lot of creases and holes and like I said messed around with contrast etc but I'm sure my skills are a million miles away from yourself and some others on this message board
-
Did see someone post on a photography forum.
It was a family portrait of children possibly 1910's
very badly faded and water damaged.
Someone spent 120 hours on it with masks and gradients
when finished it looked like it was taken yesterday
That's how far you can go
-
I vote for farm/orchard workers. Could be a hay rake or a scythe and not sure a straw hat for mine work. Any Kent / London connection for hop pickers?
-
Yep, that's what I was thinking. Not too sure if there are any orchard specialists on here but there is definitely a lattice frame behind that shed and by the looks of it its actually higher than the shed. Wonder what they may be growing on that thing?
Another thing I spotted was the metal object that is in the hand of the chap squatting to the left. He has a bucket but also something else in the hand that holds the bucket. What is that?
I also ran the photo through some specialist filters and found that the person i'm assuming is a woman at the back is actually holding a long pole that curves to the left at the top of the pole (which I have yet to brush in along the same path the gradient shows in the original)
Also noticed that the chap to the right of the assumed woman has a wedding ring on, and as I cant tell the orientation of her left arm is it possible that she is linking him? Or maybe has her hand resting on his bicep area?
Here is where I am up to so far
-
They do look like farm workers don't they? Also I'm starting to wonder if the person in the centre of the back row is actually a female. I guess this wouldn't be out of the question with mining as the pit brow lasses were somewhat famous in that occupation but farming? I'm no expert on farming and the appearance of women in the farming community
What an interesting photo. Do you have any idea roughly when and where it was taken?
They do appear to be agricultural labourers, women and children would have done this work as well. But it could also be some kind of small drift mine, where local people could dig out coal for themselves perhaps. There does seem to be some kind of entrance on the right.
It doesn't look like a typical large colliery of the type a 'pit brow lass' would have worked in. Women and children did at one time work underground in mines, but that would have been before photography was common. The 'pit brow lasses' by this time, and children under 11 years?, only worked above ground by law
-
Still not sure about details for the photo yet but I will post what I can get when I can speak to the chap who gave it to me.
I never thought that the object to the right was an entrance, I just assumed it was a shed of some kind ! I'm no expert on this, and I agree that this lady is far from a pit brow lass as I'm from Wigan and have seen many a photo of pit brow lasses to last me a lifetime in this neck of the woods !
It's a pity the buckets are empty, but the fact that most of them have a bucket and a couple seem to have long scythe or hook type things leads me to think that whatever they are doing it's small scale.
I had also noticed that our tall friend 2nd from the left also has a similar small metal container strapped to his belt, and it looks like the one the chap has squatting with a bucket on the left. I wonder what they are for? Seed containers maybe? Chalk to get a grip on things? Maybe even small 'smoke pumps' to calm down wasps in the trees of an Orchard maybe?
Also curious about that hand holding the pole between the 'Woman and the chap to her left. Is that 'her ' hand or his?
I wonder if I can find a painting of a 18th or 19th century orchard with farmers....
-
I also think that the construction on the right is a building/barn. I've only got a few agricultural photos and those are from Canada in the 1890s/1900s so not sure of the date of this.
Looking at their utensils/tools, I'd say the crop was apples or cherries, etc. OR maybe hops :-\
Added - milking buckets were usually a different shape
-
Hops eh? Maybe these folks are cereal farmers?
I just found the below information about 'fagging sticks' They look quite similar to the curved pole the chap is holding second from the left, and if so the pouch thing around his waist may be a rubbing stone box used for sharpening
-
Had a bit of a stab but without taking out each character and apply new layers manipulation of the picture as a whole is tricky given the contrasts
The view below expands out and blurs so best download the attachment
-
Prouty, I have read about the fagging sticks but they are short implements a bit like a sickle, used at arms length, not on a pole as seen in your photo. I would seem these people are fruit or vegetable pickers, something small going by the size of their buckets. The hook could have been used to pull down branches or high growing plants, I can't find anything like them online.
Do you think there could be more frames behind them, the straight lines, or are they just dirt or creases?
-
Had a bit of a stab but without taking out each character and apply new layers manipulation of the picture as a whole is tricky given the contrasts
The view below expands out and blurs so best download the attachment
Thanks for that Cliffkinch. Your photo brings out the fact that even the 'woman' on the back row seems to have a long tool that stretches over her head with it's length. You can just about see the top of this tool
I agree this is a tough photo to approach from a restoration point of view
-
Prouty, I have read about the fagging sticks but they are short implements a bit like a sickle, used at arms length, not on a pole as seen in your photo. I would seem these people are fruit or vegetable pickers, something small going by the size of their buckets. The hook could have been used to pull down branches or high growing plants, I can't find anything like them online.
Do you think there could be more frames behind them, the straight lines, or are they just dirt or creases?
Hi Trishanne, this had also crossed my mind that those are short tools but if you look at the base of the 'fagging stick' it has rope wrapped around the base, and if you then look at the tool that our tall gaunt looking friend has (second from left at the rear) his tool just above his left hand has a similar rope arrangement. It looks like his long pole has a short tool tied to it with rope to make the entire tool longer, and added to his own height suggests he was using this to reach up to cut things way above his head
-
Do you think there could be more frames behind them, the straight lines, or are they just dirt or creases?
I also looked at these frames, and put the photo into negative to check this out. The frames above and to the rear the shed are definitely real frames and not creases. Having said that I'm now seeing what may have been other frames to the rear of the subjects above and to the rear of the 'Woman'
What do you make of those? They may be creases or faded frames
-
My try.
Peter
-
My try.
Peter
Thanks for that Peter, they look a little better than mine, especially the second one.
What do you make of the potential long scythe type tool that 'the woman' seems to be holding? You can see this in the negative although quite faint. It looks longer than the tool held by the chap to her right
-
If that is a similar tool than the chap to 'her' right then the overall photo would look something like the photo below
-
Here's one from me. Is that another lady in the middle on the front row?
Pat
-
Here's one from me. Is that another lady in the middle on the front row?
Pat
Now that shines a whole different light on things Pat. I see you have included another lattice structure from the faint outline in the negative. Interesting
I was also thinking about the person in the middle front row also being a woman.
I don't know much about agriculture so have no idea what would be grown on these lattice frames, but whatever it is these are some pretty large constructions that are higher than the shed
-
I think the tool is a soil scarifier/weeder or perhaps a dutch hoe.
Not sure there are any women; I think they are men with protective clothing against insects/scratches, with belts to hold their buckets while they pick berries.
Or maybe they're for doing something else altogether. :D
And, sorry, but I see the "lattice" as damage in the photo - but with a picture like this it is very hard to distinguish between detail and damage.
Cheers,
Peter
-
I think the tool is a soil scarifier/weeder or perhaps a dutch hoe.
Not sure there are any women; I think they are men with protective clothing against insects/scratches, with belts to hold their buckets while they pick berries.
Or maybe they're for doing something else altogether. :D
And, sorry, but I see the "lattice" as damage in the photo - but with a picture like this it is very hard to distinguish between detail and damage.
Cheers,
Peter
Hi Peter
I have uploaded the 121 meg TIF version to dropbox if anyone is interested
https://www.dropbox.com/s/48n4ag4q2l0288y/Image%201.tif?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/48n4ag4q2l0288y/Image%201.tif?dl=0)
It looks like the photo for some reason may have had a plastic film wrapped around it to protect it presumably, cling film maybe? Very odd, but I have emailed my friend to see if we can get a better image minus any plastic and in landscape mode if possible as I think any plastic wrapping may have reflected a flash possibly limiting some aspects of the image, and without it may bring out more detail.
I'm also waiting for what he knows about the image, If I can get a family name or a location of the photo then I could narrow down a lot of questions, or god forbid a name of one of the people in the photo that would really help :)
I'm also curious about the chap on the far right. Why would a fruit picker (Orchard or otherwise) need a spade? An orchard worker would have cut things down rather than dig them up surely?
Have you any theories on dates here Peter. I think the tools will be the best clue as scarifiers, fagging sticks etc would have been in popular use in a certain time frame?
-
Looking at the original photo, the tool with the curved top looks like a hoe:
https://www.dreamstime.com/stock-image-old-garden-hoe-white-background-image33463911
Two of the other men have tools with long handles but can't see what is at the working end. One man has a spade. With the buckets - an activity down on the ground not up in the air in an orchard. No fruit trees in view.
Most of the men are wearing broad brimmed hats suitable for working outdoors in the summer months not in the confines of a mine. So agricultural workers.
Tony
-
Mmmm...Maybe that is a hoe
Good grief this is like trying to spot a man behind the grassy knoll in the JFK assassination
Kinda stands out in negative format doesn't it? I'm also having doubts about the man next to the guy with the spade as he is also holding a pole with some tool on the end but the end merges with the distant wooden frame behind the shed
If that is a hoe then it doesn't look like a very wide hoe (Not that I'm a hoe expert)
-
Oh well for what it's worth
At least they have sky and grass now :)
-
I had a look at the tif but on the face of it, for me at least, couldn't see that there was any more information to glean than has already been shown. Nevertheless it has been an interesting thread to follow.
-
I had a look at the tif but on the face of it, for me at least, couldn't see that there was any more information to glean than has already been shown. Nevertheless it has been an interesting thread to follow.
Hi Handypandy
I hope I will get some more info about this photo over the next couple of days so lets see if we can glean any further clues
In the meantime I have spent quite a while staring at the negative to try to figure out the orientation of the person I thought was a woman in the back row and as I believed at first that 'she' was sitting on something with 'her' skirt flowing to the right.
I think now that it's just an illusion, and now thing the flowing skirt isn't a skirt at all. I think they are wheat sacks
Ok I have taken a little artistic licence here and put the wheat sacks in as well as dressing 'her' in a period correct farmers smock, it gives a little better insight into the way my thoughts are going with this
Just wish I could bring out some detail with the faces but facial features are for the real quality artists, I wouldn't even attempt it with my limited skills
-
Also, remember that object that I thought was another frame above their heads (That was also suggested to be photo damage)
I'm now thinking that maybe its a large hay rake held by the person I thought was a woman
I had never even seen one of these before, but good grief that's some rake, and a world away from a normal garden rake
-
Any theories on this anyone?
-
I have mixed feelings about this. Its your photo, so do as you will, but please only alongside the original, noted as your interpretation. Inventing things to suit your own narrative should only ever be the artistic interpretation.... with the original remaining in tact for the future.... because who knows what may be possible?
Its not that many years that, what we do now, was the stuff of science fiction :)
edit: the hay rake had crossed my mind too...
-
Don't worry I have the same feelings about adding stuff in, I still have the original, just throwing ideas around really
The hay rake would make a really great subject though, that's some piece of kit if that's what it is. I'll hold off from making any alterations.
If I was photographing this group at the time I would definitely want to get a hay rake into the photo, it would make the composition complete, and I guess back then (I'm guessing late 1890's early 1900's) photographs were a rarity so getting the right shot would be critical. The shot does look staged anyway and looks like the subjects would have been posed just right
-
My personal view is that they are hop pickers.
See the link below, hops can grow up to 18ft. The tools you see would have been used to “shake” the frames so that the hops fall to the ground so they can be shovelled up into the buckets. Then emptied into sacks ready for transporting to the loacal brewery. Today, this is all automated.
http://beerlegends.com/hops-planting-location-and-trellis-design#
The bottles you see are more likely to be earthenware bottles for water, The ones that are light brown bottom and dark brown top. They would keep drinking water cooler than glass.
The barn could be the brewery itself or or for storing the hops before they were sent to a local brewery.
Date? I would put at c1920-30. The hat the lady is wearing and the man on far right looks right for that time frame, although the lady’s clothing doesnt look very suitable for manual labour :D
We had orchards on our farm when I was a child and also visited hop farms in operation. We had similar tools on our farm to shake the apples and pears down but our orchards were not commercial.
Jenny
-
I think they could be hop pickers too. Until fairly recent times (1930s or even later) poor Londoners would go out to the hop fields and camp for several weeks at a time to make extra money. Family groups went, which would explain the rather odd mix of clothing. Taking group photos was common too.
-
Hops have to be physically picked off the bine by hand (or machine today), not shaken down with long handled implements. They were gathered into baskets not metal buckets.
Agree, there are two large wooden hay rakes in the original photo, these would be too unwieldy to be wondering around a hop garden with all those poles and strings.
Tony
-
My personal view is that they are hop pickers.
See the link below, hops can grow up to 18ft. The tools you see would have been used to “shake” the frames so that the hops fall to the ground so they can be shovelled up into the buckets. Then emptied into sacks ready for transporting to the loacal brewery. Today, this is all automated.
http://beerlegends.com/hops-planting-location-and-trellis-design#
The bottles you see are more likely to be earthenware bottles for water, The ones that are light brown bottom and dark brown top. They would keep drinking water cooler than glass.
The barn could be the brewery itself or or for storing the hops before they were sent to a local brewery.
Date? I would put at c1920-30. The hat the lady is wearing and the man on far right looks right for that time frame, although the lady’s clothing doesnt look very suitable for manual labour :D
We had orchards on our farm when I was a child and also visited hop farms in operation. We had similar tools on our farm to shake the apples and pears down but our orchards were not commercial.
Jenny
Interesting...
I'm definitely not a hop expert. I had no idea hops grew on vines but that could explain any large wooden frames in the photo, and I agree with the clothing, if that is a woman she seems better dressed than the rest of them. I was also wondering about the chap on the right who appears to be wearing some kind of beanie hat. He is dressed completely differently to the rest, I thought he was a vet at first but he definitely looks like he has a different job than the rest
Hops have to be physically picked off the bine by hand (or machine today), not shaken down with long handled implements. They were gathered into baskets not metal buckets.
Agree, there are two large wooden hay rakes in the original photo, these would be too unwieldy to be wondering around a hop garden with all those poles and strings.
Tony
I can only see one hay rake in the original photo, have you spotted another? I'm also curious about the buckets when there is a hay rake in the photo, you wouldn't put hay in a bucket and you wouldn't need hay rakes for hop picking or apple collection. Is this a multi crop farm do you think?
-
Two people in the back row between the hoe and spade are holding wooden hay rakes aloft. Where the rake handles make a Y-shape and the rake heads and tines can be dimly seen.
Is it known which county the photo was taken?
Inland or coastal location?
Tony
-
For what it's worth, I think they are all male farm workers. I suggest they are posing for the photo and the tools are just 'props'. I don't think they are a work gang doing a particular job as the tools are too varied for any single farm job I can think of.
Back row: possibly a hoe or a shepherd's crook? two hayrakes, a staff as used by a cattle drover, and a spade. Front row possibly milking pails, and the man sitting centre left seems to be holding a milk dipper, used to measure out a pint or half-pint of milk into a jug or bottle.
They all seem to be wearing smocks which suggests a date in the late 19th century.
Just my feeling from studying the original photo. I did try enhancing it but with less success than some of the others here.
Mike.
-
Could it just be a collection of workers on a large farm?
-
Another Effort
-
Another Effort
Thanks for that sir. It's amazing some of the skills I see on here. Don't forget that the original didn't have sacks or grass though, I just added those for my own aesthetic reasons. Mike 175 pointed out what may be a second hay rake to the right held by the chap wearing the beanie hat
Having said that It seems that other things are coming out of this photo that took me a while to seeFor what it's worth, I think they are all male farm workers. I suggest they are posing for the photo and the tools are just 'props'. I don't think they are a work gang doing a particular job as the tools are too varied for any single farm job I can think of.
Back row: possibly a hoe or a shepherd's crook? two hayrakes, a staff as used by a cattle drover, and a spade. Front row possibly milking pails, and the man sitting centre left seems to be holding a milk dipper, used to measure out a pint or half-pint of milk into a jug or bottle.
They all seem to be wearing smocks which suggests a date in the late 19th century.
Just my feeling from studying the original photo. I did try enhancing it but with less success than some of the others here.
Mike.
I took another look at this second hay rake and yes I can see a second hay rake, but this brings a second detective story. I see a hay rake with only the right part of the hay rake ! I have left a comparison of what I mean below in negative.
The left hay rake is pretty much a full rake in one photo, but the right rake only seems to have half a head, so the question is if that is a hay rake then what kind of a hay rake only has one side of a head?
-
For what it's worth, I think they are all male farm workers. I suggest they are posing for the photo and the tools are just 'props'. I don't think they are a work gang doing a particular job as the tools are too varied for any single farm job I can think of.
Back row: possibly a hoe or a shepherd's crook? two hayrakes, a staff as used by a cattle drover, and a spade. Front row possibly milking pails, and the man sitting centre left seems to be holding a milk dipper, used to measure out a pint or half-pint of milk into a jug or bottle.
They all seem to be wearing smocks which suggests a date in the late 19th century.
Just my feeling from studying the original photo. I did try enhancing it but with less success than some of the others here.
Mike.
Just for the record here I'm with mike 175 on this, it seems to me that the photo is staged and the range of tools is way to varied for any one occupation
Also, could that 'half a hay rake' actually be a Cradle Scythe?
If so, then the distant frames for growing hops aren't really there
-
I’m with Mike on this one, that is very likely a pint milk dipper. But could be used for any liquid.
Those metal buckets are for liquids, nobody would carry a metal bucket to harvest fruit or hops or grain, baskets or sacks are more practical
Mike
-
I’ve had another look at the original, thinking afresh and am now wondering about harvesting grapes for wine, they are picked very ripe and it’s the juice you want, hence the metal buckets.
Ever the devils advocate I’m not sure it’s in the UK
Mike
-
I was thinking of a milk dipper as well but that would introduce yet another profession of dairy farming along with the hay rake (cereal), Hoe (Ground work), Sacks (Gathering of things to bag up), etc
I also noticed something about the clothing. See the guy on the far right with the spade? He's wearing plus fours ! Which would suggest a country gentleman of some education rather than an uneducated farm hand, yet he's wearing overalls over the top ???
Plus fours would suggest 1920's and his posture suggests an ex military man.
Also the guy to his right appears to be wearing a cape ! Again, a cape for an uneducated farm hand? And his head gear is really unusual. My first instinct is that he's a vet. He also has some kind of strange arrangement below his chin in the chest area that I can't make out. Maybe the hat is a medical scrub hat and the arrangement at his chest area is a mask he has just untied and is hanging in the chest area
Also I'm starting to lean back toward female for the person in the front middle as I have only just noticed that he/she is wearing a bib apron as the braces over the shoulders are quite clear
So a wheat/cereal farm that does ground work collecting stuff in large sacks and uses buckets and is run by educated types who don't mind spade work !
Weird
-
Or some kind of concert party, gang show etc?
-
Or some kind of concert party, gang show etc?
The more I look at this photo the more confused I get. I'm due to see the person who actually owns the photo tomorrow and he's a genealogy buff so I'm sure he will be able to fill in the blanks on this and hopefully a family name of someone on the photo or at least a location but I'm sure this is in England
-
Could it just be a collection of workers on a large farm?
That's basically what I'm saying. Probably a reasonable size farm but not a large estate. From my own knowledge all the tools except the shepherd's crook would be used on a dairy farm (of course they may have had sheep as well). Hay rakes were used in making hay for the cows, buckets for milking them. I believe one man would milk around a dozen cows, so a fairly large herd for the times if there were four cowmen. All the herdsmen I've known carry a stick or staff to help in driving the cows, and I can think of plenty of uses for a spade on any type of farm.
Something about the picture suggests the west of England but I wouldn't bet on it.
Mike.
-
Could it just be a collection of workers on a large farm?
That's basically what I'm saying. Probably a reasonable size farm but not a large estate. From my own knowledge all the tools except the shepherd's crook would be used on a dairy farm (of course they may have had sheep as well). Hay rakes were used in making hay for the cows, buckets for milking them. I believe one man would milk around a dozen cows, so a fairly large herd for the times if there were four cowmen. All the herdsmen I've known carry a stick or staff to help in driving the cows, and I can think of plenty of uses for a spade on any type of farm.
Something about the picture suggests the west of England but I wouldn't bet on it.
Mike.
I also just spotted the handle of what looks like a machete between the two bucket people to the left of the person in the centre. The chap who owns the photo comes from Lancashire so I'm betting this photo is from that region somewhere. I'm not 100% that is a crook by the way, It looks like it goes higher and splits into two at the top although not sure about the attachment at the end. If you look at the image of the chap in negative it looks like it does have some arrangement at the top but I just can't make it out
-
It was the man on the left in the back row that I thought could be holding a crook, but I'm far from sure, I would have expected to see a dog or two if he was a shepherd. There are definitely two hay rakes visible in the original but some of the restorations have lost them. Sorry, I can't see the machete :-\
So, north-west rather than west :) and Lancashire is definitely dairy and sheep country . . .
-
It was the man on the left in the back row that I thought could be holding a crook, but I'm far from sure, I would have expected to see a dog or two if he was a shepherd. There are definitely two hay rakes visible in the original but some of the restorations have lost them. Sorry, I can't see the machete :-\
So, north-west rather than west :) and Lancashire is definitely dairy and sheep country . . .
Yep, Lancashire is looking favourite but I'll know more tomorrow
The Machete is in the photo from the original copy (without restoration), I have cut the area out for you, just zoom in, the handle is quite distinct although the blade is sheathed
I have also attached the original unaltered image where the hay rake(s) are. I can see the one on the left but the one on the right only seems to have half a head so the jury is still out on that for me
-
So, north-west rather than west :) and Lancashire is definitely dairy and sheep country . . .
And flax
-
While we are on the dairy theme I found a photo of an actual working dairy from between 1920 and 1930 as I was curious about the chap wearing what looks like a skill cap on the right next to the chap with the spade. The hat seems out of place compared to the rest and it doesn't seem like a fashion item from the era unless it is a flat cap and we can't see it due to photo damage but the shape isn't right for a flat cap
If you look at the photo below from the working dairy the headgear fits our chap a lot better, although our chap doesn't seem to be dressed in white. I can't imagine what other colour he would be dressed in rather than white if his job is the same as the people in the photo below
Our chap seems to be in a dark colour. Green maybe ?
Any theories anyone?
-
That last photo has convinced me that the original is a photo of the employees and owner of a fairly large dairy farm.
Metal buckets, white clothing and hats.
If you had ever milked a cow you would know why they are wearing hats. ;D ;D ;D
There are two halves to a dairy farm, the grass, the hay, fences calving etc, and the milking side,
Milkers dress in white and handle the milk from when it leaves the cow until it leaves the farm,
Farm workers muck out wash down and grow the grass, and move the hay into the cowshed.
A modern milking parlour feeds the milk into a bulk tank straight from the cow, with no human contact, but you still need to be sterile to dip your jug into the bulk tank to pour on your cereal.
Just my thoughts, but a close relative still milks 150 cows, as did his father and ggfather
Mike
-
That last photo has convinced me that the original is a photo of the employees and owner of a fairly large dairy farm.
Metal buckets, white clothing and hats.
If you had ever milked a cow you would know why they are wearing hats. ;D ;D ;D
There are two halves to a dairy farm, the grass, the hay, fences calving etc, and the milking side,
Milkers dress in white and handle the milk from when it leaves the cow until it leaves the farm,
Farm workers muck out wash down and grow the grass, and move the hay into the cowshed.
A modern milking parlour feeds the milk into a bulk tank straight from the cow, with no human contact, but you still need to be sterile to dip your jug into the bulk tank to pour on your cereal.
Just my thoughts, but a close relative still milks 150 cows, as did his father and ggfather
Mike
Good grief, 150 cows? Busy guy that's for sure. that is proper hard work
So from the photo who do you think is the owner? I guess the guy wearing the plus fours isn't a regular farm worker, and my feeling is that the chap to the left of him is the other odd one out from the group although his hat still bothers me. Also if he is one of the two owners then I doubt he would want to be photographed with a farming tool and mistaken for the common folk.
As for the tool he is holding aloft my gut reaction is a cradle scythe (A serious bladed piece of kit and not something you would hold aloft)
Whatever that tool is interestingly looks left handed as a right handed one would jut out to the left whereas his juts out to the right behind his own head
If he did have something to do with milking what colour do you think his uniform would be? As a negative it appears both he and his companion with the spade have the lightest colours which means that as a normal image both are actually wearing the darkest colours of the group.
Below is a photo of someone holding a cradle scythe, although he isn't holding it bolt upright and his is a right handed one
-
Ok, for what its worth the guy with the shovel, it’s not a spade, is the owner. On the left the guy with the bilhook and hat at an angle may be son or brother, and I still think it’s a female next to him, she would make butter or cheese with the surplus milk in summer, so part of the team.
On a farm of this size everyone would do the work, owner included, it was not that profitable back then, before the days of the milk marketing board and guaranteed sale of your quota at a fixed price
Mike
-
Ok, for what its worth the guy with the shovel, it’s not a spade, is the owner. On the left the guy with the bilhook and hat at an angle may be son or brother, and I still think it’s a female next to him, she would make butter or cheese with the surplus milk in summer, so part of the team.
On a farm of this size everyone would do the work, owner included, it was not that profitable back then, before the days of the milk marketing board and guaranteed sale of your quota at a fixed price
Mike
Ah right...A shovel. Why didn't I spot that? So it isn't for ground work It's for mucking out in a dairy?
-
It also occurred to me that there seems to be a short shadow behind the two men to the far left which may suggest that the photo was taken before lunch around 10 or 11 am with the sun to the photographers rear and right.
I guess work starts really early on farms
-
I
I guess work starts really early on farms
6am 365 days a year :) :). The bulk tanker arrives about 10-30, if the milk has not cooled to the correct temperature he won’t collect it and £300 quid goes down the drain.
Mucking out is mechanised mostly nowadays, but the cows seem to object to a mechanised udder washer ;D ;D ;D.
Hygiene is vital, if the bacteria count is too high or the butterfat too low the buyer will reject it
-
I guess everyone is getting bored with me flying the flag for my relatives, and of course I could be completely wrong
-
I guess everyone is getting bored with me flying the flag for my relatives, and of course I could be completely wrong
Well we have a change of location now
I spoke to the owner of the photo and it's the usual 'I have no idea it came from a box of photos' kind of thing
What I did glean however is that the area of this farm is in the area of South Darbyshire, right on the border of Darbyshire and Staffordshire in the broad area of Mickleover, Repton, and Ashbourne
He had relatives from Repton and Mickleover, and another in London Road Ashbourne
He also believes that the person in the photo to the left back row (Our tall gaunt friend ) may be his relative Len White. He also reckons that the other relatives in Repton and Mickleover had the surname 'Roberts'
Now looking for a farm surrounding Mickleover in 1920 is relatively easy using ordnance survey maps of that timeframe (6 farms)
Repton for the same timeframe (1920) works out as 11 farms
Ashbourne on the other hand you can throw a rock in any direction and hit a farm (59 farms) but the closest date I could get a map for this area is 1897
So 76 farms in total
The Mickleover connection looks interesting as the relative there is the one with all the money at that time so maybe that relative was a farm owner?
Honestly I can't believe the amount of farms at that time but I suppose this is Darbyshire after all
Trust me Mazi, I'm not getting bored with your farming family, I wouldn't have learned half of the stuff I have learned over the last few days had It not been for your help on this. I'm from Wigan remember, we dug all our farms up to create mine shafts. A farm for me is a rarity
-
Nope, my mistake, the money was in Repton with the White family, and the money originally came from John Eales White esq 1801 - 1855 of the Taunton Brewing company of St.James in Taunton. The family sold the brewery at its height and moved to Fleet street in London before upping sticks and moving to Repton in Darbyshire
the tall chap on the back row of our farm photo is believed to be one of the White's descendants
Ok, for what its worth the guy with the shovel, it’s not a spade, is the owner. On the left the guy with the bilhook and hat at an angle may be son or brother, and I still think it’s a female next to him, she would make butter or cheese with the surplus milk in summer, so part of the team.
On a farm of this size everyone would do the work, owner included, it was not that profitable back then, before the days of the milk marketing board and guaranteed sale of your quota at a fixed price
Mike
Ah right...A shovel. Why didn't I spot that? So it isn't for ground work It's for mucking out in a dairy?
I took on board your point about this being before the days of the milk marketing board and guaranteed sale of your milk at a fixed price, although I just found out that Nestle had a facility called the creamery in Ashbourne from 1910 and produced carnation milk. They even built their own private sidings to accept 'milk trains' from as far away as London. The tracks were finally lifted in 1965 and the factory closed in 2008
So a pretty big buyer of milk in the area of this farm !
-
I think there is a danger of making too many assumptions from limited evidence, although of course anyone is entitled to make whatever they wish of their own family photos ;)
The quality of the original image is too poor to be certain that there is only half a hayrake (which I'm fairly certain it is) and if it is perhaps it was broken. I'm fairly certain it isn't any type of scythe.
If the man on the right is carrying a shovel rather than a spade it is rather a small one for mucking out the cows, a job I spent many happy hours doing in my younger days ::)
It is risky to make assumptions about a man's status from his clothing. I once wore an army officers great coat and a lovely thick (and itchy!) pair of policeman's woollen trousers in the winter on the farm despite never having served in either capacity. Poorer people often wear second-hand clothes.
If you have a potential ID for one of the characters in the picture I would start researching him for clues as to the location of the farm, otherwise it sounds like the proverbial 'needle in a haystack'.
Just a few more thoughts. I feel I almost know the men now, after studying the picture so long :)
Mike.
-
Late on the scene - as usual :-[ I don't believe that the buckets have anything to do with "milking" at all. I remember milking pails as being wide at the top and narrower at the bottom - so you could fit them easily between your legs when sat on the 3-legged milking stool. Not only that, they are too big. :o AND you wouldn't wear a hat with a brim for milking - more likely the equivalent of wearing a "baseball" cap back to front - to protect your head from the cow's hide.
-
Late on the scene - as usual :-[ I don't believe that the buckets have anything to do with "milking" at all. I remember milking pails as being wide at the top and narrower at the bottom - so you could fit them easily between your legs when sat on the 3-legged milking stool. Not only that, they are too big. :o AND you wouldn't wear a hat with a brim for milking - more likely the equivalent of wearing a "baseball" cap back to front - to protect your head from the cow's hide.
Hi BumbleB
So could that explain the odd skull cap that the person second from right is wearing?
I think the others dressed in white were in charge of the hay collection procedure. I get the feeling he is closer to the cow side of things milking/husbandry kind of stuff. I'm tinkering with a colorised version of the photo but can't decide on his overalls/cape etc as he seems to be dressed in dark colours rather than white
-
6am 365 days a year :) :). The bulk tanker arrives about 10-30, if the milk has not cooled to the correct temperature he won’t collect it and £300 quid goes down the drain.
Back around the time of the photo many farmers had to have the cows milked and the churns delivered to the station, often by pony and trap, in time for the 7am milk train. You couldn't keep fresh milk standing around for long, especially in hot weather, before refrigeration came into use.
-
Buckets used in cheese making ? would explain the dairy type clothes and various head hat attire
Another possibility -buckets used to collect pigs blood after gutting the pig.
-
Googling images of milking shed 1920s produces a photo of identical buckets being used to filter raw milk before it goes into the churn, an essential process I had forgotten about as a modern parlour does it automatically
Mike
-
Googling images of milking shed 1920s produces a photo of identical buckets being used to filter raw milk before it goes into the churn, an essential process I had forgotten about as a modern parlour does it automatically
Mike
Not being a bucket specialist I'll go with your expertise on this Mazi :)
I'm still scratching my head about that tool above our friend's head second from right. It looks like a long Lacrosse stick. It's a pole that splits into two above his hand much the same way a hay rake does, then at the top it also has a horizontal section attached to the two halves of the split pole with just a hint of teeth like a hay rake, but the head only seems to stretch in one direction above his head to the right, but just isn't there to the left. What an odd tool! I can't find anything similar on the net anywhere to compare it to. There is some damage to the photo in this area that confuses the situation even more.
Just to be expected in photo's of this age I guess, It is approaching a hundred years old after all
Also interesting that Carnation milk was made quite close by, I often wondered where that was made and who originally made it