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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: AnnieP on Thursday 13 December 18 12:11 GMT (UK)
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I've at long last come to the conclusion that this great-aunt of mine cannot be found unless anyone else has a brighter idea. Her name is Ada Georgina Moth born on 4 Jun 1871 in Gosport, one of 12 children. She was the first born daughter of James Moth and Georgina Emily Mary Hobbs who were married on 18 May 1871 in the Registers Office, Portsmouth, Hampshire, obviously with some urgency! I've found her as a scholar on the 1881 census living at 34 Ivy St, Portsea and again on the 1891 census as a housemaid age 20 living at 4 Lynchford Terrace off Waverley Road, Southsea. Then NOTHING! I've tried, marriages, deaths, immigration so I can only think it must be a transcription error. If anyone can help I would be eternally grateful as I'm writing a book about the Moth family (my grandfather's line) and her chapter is going to be exceedingly short!
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I see that out of the 12 children 2 had died by the last census. Have you worked out which two they were, so you know for sure if Ada was still alive by then or not?
Also I see her father left a Will when he died in 1931 - have you got a copy of that to see if daughter Ada is mentioned?
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Link to a previous post to save duplication of research
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=567248.9
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I see that out of the 12 children 2 had died by the last census. Have you worked out which two they were, so you know for sure if Ada was still alive by then or not?
Also I see her father left a Will when he died in 1931 - have you got a copy of that to see if daughter Ada is mentioned?
Please see replies #11 and #12 here https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=567248.msg4195771#msg4195771
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Link to a previous post to save duplication of research
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=567248.9
My apologies for the duplication in my posting bearcat, I completely missed yours :-[
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Many thanks for this reminder that I'd previously posted this same question back in 2011. This just shows everyone how long I've been trying to get some more information without success. I've even thought to go through all the certificates of marriages for her remaining siblings hoping she may have been a witness but no such luck. I'm afraid I'll just have to give up on her and consequently write a very short chapter in my book.
Thanks to everyone for all the suggestions.
AnnieP
PS I did send for the will but he left everything to his wife and no children were mentioned.
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I see that out of the 12 children 2 had died by the last census. Have you worked out which two they were, so you know for sure if Ada was still alive by then or not?
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I see that out of the 12 children 2 had died by the last census. Have you worked out which two they were, so you know for sure if Ada was still alive by then or not?
Reply # 12 on the linked thread indicates only one had been identified at the time of writing :-\
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Possibility for the second child....
Rose Moth mmn Hobbs b Dec qtr 1878 and d Mar qtr 1880 so would have missed the 1881 census.
PB
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To resurrect a query from other thread by dee-jay
quote "I had a crack at locating the daughter of the household where Ada was located in 1891: 'Isabella' aged 30 born Staffs Kingswinford but I'm not certain her surname has been transcribed accurately as I read the first letter 'P' - not the 'V'ANHOOK of FindMyPast; neither could I trace the Celia CHESTER, cook."
RG12; Piece: 876; Folio: 59; Page: 30
There is something odd on this page. I too read the first letter as 'P'; the previous entry is an Esther Annie Sims age 21 who is living at 3 Lynchfield Terrace, single, servant. Next door at No 4 is Isabella [looks like Paxhook or Parhook] single, 30, no occupation, daur - should she be 'Head'? - but indexed on ancestry as Sims. If she was a lady of means perhaps Ada went abroad with her - although I know OP has said she has checked travel/migration records. Without knowing Isabella's real surname that's difficult to check. I can find no suitable births of an Isabella registered in Stourbridge [for Kingswinford] around 1860.
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I had thought of that myself but as you say it's very difficult to read Isabella's surname. There is a possibility of a departure from So'ton on board the SS St Louis on 5 Aug 1899 to New York. The name transcribed is Miss A C Mott, ticket no.6478 along with a Miss C Morgan with the same number. Looking at it closely it could well be Miss A G Moth and it does say that she was single. This is probably just wishful thinking on my part!
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Have you looked for this lady in the 1900 US census?
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To resurrect a query from other thread by dee-jay
quote "I had a crack at locating the daughter of the household where Ada was located in 1891: 'Isabella' aged 30 born Staffs Kingswinford but I'm not certain her surname has been transcribed accurately as I read the first letter 'P' - not the 'V'ANHOOK of FindMyPast; neither could I trace the Celia CHESTER, cook."
RG12; Piece: 876; Folio: 59; Page: 30
There is something odd on this page. I too read the first letter as 'P'; the previous entry is an Esther Annie Sims age 21 who is living at 3 Lynchfield Terrace, single, servant. Next door at No 4 is Isabella [looks like Paxhook or Parhook] single, 30, no occupation, daur - should she be 'Head'? - but indexed on ancestry as Sims. If she was a lady of means perhaps Ada went abroad with her - although I know OP has said she has checked travel/migration records. Without knowing Isabella's real surname that's difficult to check. I can find no suitable births of an Isabella registered in Stourbridge [for Kingswinford] around 1860.
Following up this line of thought, the full address in 1891 is Lynchfield Terrace, Waverley Road. In 1901 there is a 43 year old Isabella Grazebrook living at 63 Waverley Road, with her mother (RG 13 / 990 / 31 / 9) Isabella's birthplace is Staffordshire. Tracking her back, her birthplace in 1881 is Kingswinford . So I wonder if this is the 1891 Isabella, hopelessly mistranscribed by the enumerator in 1891?
In any event, if it is the same Isabella, there is no-one called Ada in the household in 1901 ::)
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Looks very likely JenB, well done. But a dead end it seems - still everything found, however negative, is another avenue followed & ruled out.
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Thank you everyone for all this research and well done at last discovering that elusive surname of Isabella. I've checked briefly on the US 1900 census but need to have a more thorough search. As yet nothing seems to be showing but again she could of course have married.
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In 1891 Ada is a servant to Isabella Vanhook.
Familysearch has this birth entry
Carley I VANHOOK mother Ada MOUTHS in 1831 in Pulaski, Kentucky gender 9 :-\
with Ada being born in 1872 she's be too old to have a child in 1831 but there's 2 unusual names ....
(I think I'm on totally the wrong track with this one >:( )
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Portsea Rate Book for 1891 has
Occupier - Mary Grazebrook
Owner - Morley
Property - 4 Lynchford Terrace (Waverley Rd)
It is Lynchford on the census (rather than Lynchfield)
There is a possibility of a departure from So'ton on board the SS St Louis on 5 Aug 1899 to New York. The name transcribed is Miss A C Mott, ticket no.6478 along with a Miss C Morgan with the same number. Looking at it closely it could well be Miss A G Moth and it does say that she was single.
It does looks like A C Mott
The ship was the St Paul (rather than St Louis)
Unfortunately at the New York end I think that the passenger list for the SS St Paul may be incomplete.
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Portsea Rate Book for 1891 has
Occupier - Mary Grazebrook
Owner - Morley
Property - 4 Lynchford Terrace (Waverley Rd)
It is Lynchford on the census (rather than Lynchfield)
Just to tie up the loose end, in 1891 Isabella Grazebrook's mother, Mary Ann, is a visitor at a household in Esher RG 12 / 614 / 25/ 14
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I do agree with jonw65 that the name on the passenger list is A C Mott.
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About A C Mott on the passenger list....
I also agree that it reads A C Mott. She is listed as a foreigner on the manifest as opposed being English or Scottish and is travelling in the accommodation category saloon as opposed to steerage. I think it would be highly unlikely for a domestic servant to be travelling other than steerage and doubt that this would be Ada. It is too bad age and occupation are not listed.
PB
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Throw in an unlikely, but unknown, candidate (since not many Ada Moths about)
Death in Scotland in 1947
Ada Moth
age 73
St Andrew (Edinburgh)
ref 685/2 214
Is also indexed as Ada Young.
So her maiden name could be either Moth or Young, but no sign of a death of a Mr Moth of the right sort of age in Scotland, and no Ada Young - Moth marriage in England or Scotland. Or the other way round. She might have been married more than once of course.
Age would be two or three years out.
P.S. Appear to be no Moths in the Scottish BMD indexes until 1940
Hope they read the name right!
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As I had an accumulation of free credits on SP so I downloaded the death certificate.
The death on 17th March 1947 was of a 73 year old Ada Young, wife of Charles Young, an Evangelist. Her father's name was Joseph Moth (shipwright) and her mother's name Ada Moth, no maiden surname given.
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As I had an accumulation of free credits on SP so I downloaded the death certificate.
The death on 17th March 1947 was of a 73 year old Ada Young, wife of Charles Young, an Evangelist. Her father's name was Joseph Moth (shipwright) and her mother's name Ada Moth, no maiden surname given.
Now, interestingly, the father of the Ada we are looking for was a shipwright. Coincidence?
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Wow, Jen, that was very kind of you.
Now, interestingly, the father of the Ada we are looking for was a shipwright. Coincidence?
Can we find an Ada, daughter of Joseph? And mother Ada!
If not, maybe the names on the certificate are wrong!
I did come across an Ada O/Ada Olive Young, born Portsmouth, living in Wales, whose husband was called Charles in 1901, but was not called Charles in 1911.
Something strange about them, whoever they were I couldn't find a marriage. And then why would Ada Georgina call herself Ada Olive!
John
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I omitted to say that the residence on the death certificate was 131 Lauriston Place, Edinburgh.
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Can we find an Ada, daughter of Joseph? And mother Ada!
If not, maybe the names on the certificate are wrong!
Doing straightforward census searches on someone with the surname Moth who was a shipwright I come up with three possibilities, but the only one I can find with a daughter called Ada is James, the father of the subject of this thread.
(probably now someone will come along and comprehensively prove me wrong!)
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Sure they wont prove you wrong, Jen!
I am becoming semi obsessed with Ada Olive born Portsmouth in Glamorgan, more particularly with her husband, Mr. Young.
1901 in Pontypridd. Husband is Charles Young, born America
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSM2-ZRF
1911 free index
Husband is Manton Young, born Birmingham. The free transcript says he was a Herbalist
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWXQ-37S
He was known as Manton! There are a few references to him in the Welsh newspapers
Manton the herbalist had a punch up with a neighbour
Was he also some kind of preacher?
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4001393/4001394/9/
"Mr Manton Young delivered a sermon on "Naman the Leper" last Sunday at Trafalgar Square. Manton held forth in his usual eloquent style to a large congregation"
No Ada O Young death in Wales.
DeceasedOnline free index has a burial of a Manton Young in Edinburgh in 1951. From other names, I've worked out that it was actually in 1949.
There is the possibility though that they have mistranscribed the name Marion!
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The two children who died very young were William James 1872-1873 and Rose 1878-1879. Again I have checked all the deaths between 1891 when she was on the census and the next in 1901 but I couldn't find her.
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DeceasedOnline free index has a burial of a Manton Young in Edinburgh in 1951. From other names, I've worked out that it was actually in 1949.
There is the possibility though that they have mistranscribed the name Marion!
This is getting interesting!
Thank goodness for my free credits!
Death 22nd April 1949, Lauriston Place, Edinburgh, Charles Young, City Evangelist, widower of Ada Moth
There is no death for a Manton Young.
Are the two one and the same?
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This is really so kind of you all and it appears that like me, you feel that you won't be beaten. She must be somewhere!! It's amazing reading through all the comments how much lateral thinking there is in trying to solve this problem. I await any more suggestions with great interest, please let there be a future "Eureka" moment.
Many, many thanks
AnnieP
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Death 22nd April 1949, Lauriston Place, Edinburgh, Charles Young, City Evangelist, widower of Ada Moth
I was going through the electorals as you were posting!
I'll put up the results anyway
Edinburgh Central Division
George Square Ward
Lot of people at this address!
They are listed in alphabetical order by surname
1945 No. 131 last names are Claud Wright, Jessie Wright
1946 ditto
1947 last name is Charles Young. Date for this is 15 October
1948 ditto, Charles Young
1949 last name is Jessie Wright.
1950 ditto
Perhaps we can find Charles + Ada before then.
But I am thinking that the burial record can't be the same chap because it says that "Manton" was buried 29 March. Along with 33 others! The others I found deaths for in the index were in 1949.
it appears that like me, you feel that you won't be beaten.
We're giving it a good go!
John
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1945
No 14 St George Sq. Ward
Polling District 02
25 Panmure Place
Ada G Young
Charles Young
Elizabeth P Young
This is in the same polling district as Lauriston Place! (few pages back)
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But I am thinking that the burial record can't be the same chap because it says that "Manton" was buried 29 March. Along with 33 others! The others I found deaths for in the index were in 1949.
it appears that like me, you feel that you won't be beaten.
We're giving it a good go!
John
I forgot to add that the Charles who died in 1949 was 85 years old.
Now, here's dedication for you ;D I had treated myself to a load of credits to Deceased Online some time ago and had some left. Curiosity got the better of me :D
Manton Young was buried, along with many others, all of the address 'University' on 29th March 1951 at Seafield Cemetery. His age at death was 85, which is exactly the same as the Charles Young, widower of Ada Moth, who died in 1949.
Aged 85 in 1949 gives a date of birth of c. 1864 which is exactly the same as the Manton Young in the 1911 census.
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Well done Jen, and you are certainly being most generous!
It is true that Manton seems to appear from nowhere and then disappear, so who knows!
1946 has, at 25 Panmure Place
Ada G Young
Charles Young
1947
Gone!
So it is looking like the couple in question, and the G initial for Ada is promising. But who was Elizabeth P Young in 1945?
John
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Well done Jen, and you are certainly being most generous!
The SP Credits were free ones I'd accumulated over some time. I still have a lot left.
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My free credits ran out at the end of the summer. I did use them up, but I don't have much to look for in Scotland. I'm not sure they give them away now :(
Panmure Place is just to the south of Lauriston Place. So that looks very good, and the dates tie in.
A word of caution about Elizabeth P Young, there were a good few people at 25 Panmure, they were listed alphabetically again. So not guaranteed to be living in the same household as Charles and Ada G (sure those two must have been together!)
John
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My free credits ran out at the end of the summer. I did use them up, but I don't have much to look for in Scotland. I'm not sure they give them away now :(
I have not seen them giving away any for a while, I still have a few which apparently expire next June.
Well done John & Jen, those results are looking really good :)
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Thanks, Rosie. It does look promising.
At least we can still do searches on SP with 0 credits!
John
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Manton Young was buried, along with many others, all of the address 'University' on 29th March 1951 at Seafield Cemetery. His age at death was 85, which is exactly the same as the Charles Young, widower of Ada Moth, who died in 1949.
Aged 85 in 1949 gives a date of birth of c. 1864 which is exactly the same as the Manton Young in the 1911 census.
Just a weird thought here -- the large number of burials on the same day all from "University" is strange. Could he have left his body to medical science and so was being buried a couple of years after he died?
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I have taken the liberty of doing a quick summary :-\ Do add anything I've missed.
Ada Georgina Moth born in 1871 in Gosport. Her father, James a shipwright.
In 1891 Ada, aged 20 is in service in Southsea.
In 1901 in Pontypridd there is an Ada O. Young, born Portsmouth aged 28 (i.e. born c. 1873) living with husband Charles Young, born c. 1862 ‘USA Brooklyn’. Charles is a ‘market man’
In 1911 in Bargoed, Ada Olive Young, born Portsmouth, aged 36 (i.e. born c. 1875), with husband Manton Young born Warwick c. 1864. Manton is a ‘herbalist’.
A Manton Young of Bargoed is mentioned in several newspapers up to 1917. In one he is referred to as a furniture dealer. In some he is giving a votes of thanks at various gatherings.
A Charles Young and Ada G Young are living at Panmure Place Edinburgh in 1945 and 1946
Death at Lauriston Place* in 1947 of Ada Young aged 73 (i.e. born c. 1874) wife of Charles Young an Evangelist. According to the cert. she is the daughter of Joseph Moth a shipwright and Ada Moth. *Lauriston Place a very short distance from Panmure Place.
Death at Lauriston Place in 1949 of Charles Young a City Evangelist. He is the widower of Ada Moth, and aged 85 i.e. born c. 1864.
Burial at Seafield Cemetery in 1951 of a Manton Young aged 85. There is no death record on SP for a Manton Young. The burial is at the same time as a large group of others all of whom died in 1949
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I've looked for the birth of an Ada O and Ada Olive born in Portsmouth within 5 years each way of 1875 but there are none, which looks promising. In actual fact Ada Georgina Moth was born in the registration district of Alverstoke, Hampshire and on the 1881 & 1891 census it gives Gosport as her place of birth rather than Portsmouth but I realize this is a minor point. I can find no record of a marriage to either Charles Young or Manton Young around 1895 as on the 1911 census it states that they have been married for 16 years. On the 1901 census the transcription for Charles' employment was market man but looking at it, the second word does seem to be longer than just 'man'. So much work has gone into this mystery and it would be great if the summary was near enough correct. I suppose Charles Young could have a second name of 'Manton' but that doesn't explain the different places of birth. It seems to be getting even more complicated but that's the fun of it all. :)
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On the 1901 census the transcription for Charles' employment was market man but looking at it, the second word does seem to be longer than just 'man'.
I'm sure that was was written was Market Man. This has been overwritten by the word 'Local'. The over-writing would have been done after the schedule was completed by someone extracting occupations for statistical purposes. Also written later was the word 'Hawk[er].
He seems to have dabbled in various occupations as well as Herbalist (1911 census). He is in Kelly's 1914 Directory as a Furniture dealer, of 3 Trafalgar Buildings, Bargoed. In the 1924 Directory he is a Gramophone dealer, at the same address.
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1945
25 Panmure Place
Ada G Young
Charles Young
(Yes, I know, another Young, Elizabeth, was at no. 25 that year, along with quite a lot of other people!)
Charles and Ada first appear at that address circa 1934
They are there in 1939.
Now, if, as is now suggested (but is it absolutely certain?) that an application for an entry from the Scottish 1939 Register might get you the date of birth, that might be a further option.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=793650.msg6637474
But, it would cost £15 :(
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1945
25 Panmure Place
Ada G Young
Charles Young
(Yes, I know, another Young, Elizabeth, was at no. 25 that year, along with quite a lot of other people!)
Charles and Ada first appear at that address circa 1934
They are there in 1939.
Now, if, as is now suggested (but is it absolutely certain?) that an application for an entry from the Scottish 1939 Register might get you the date of birth, that might be a further option.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=793650.msg6637474
But, it would cost £15 :(
I was thinking exactly the same thing earlier today.
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Jen, they did say they would give you the age, although the d-o-b will surely be on the Register. Maybe just sloppy wording on their part.
As you have found that Manton + Ada were still in Wales into the twenties, the 1921 census may help a bit as well. If they release it in early 2022, we now have only a little more than three years to wait for that ;D
John
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Although there are some obvious discrepancies I’m pretty convinced that this is the Ada Moth that AnnieP has been searching for.
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I do agree, Jen.
Just a feeling that there must be something extra out there to make it more certain. So that Ada gets her chapter in Annie's book!
John
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We need a William Turner moment :D (your reply #212 on page 24 of this thread
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=783780.msg6384974#msg6384974 )
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Yes, that was such an interesting topic, and lovely to be involved in - Davy made it all great fun as well. Some sad bits in there too of course.
I think with this one we are nearly there...
John
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We need a William Turner moment :D (your reply #212 on page 24 of this thread
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=783780.msg6384974#msg6384974 )
Phew, I've just HAD to read all that thread [37 pages :o] - fascinating. Amazing work everyone & inspired find by John.
ADDED: Ditto on this thread, I'm sure the missing link will appear at some stage!
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You will all be pleased to know that I have today posted a request to the National Records of Scotland for an extract from the 1939 Register for Ada Young. Cross your fingers that her date of birth will be the 4 Jun 1871. I shall be so upset if this isn't her after all the hard work contributed by everyone.
I did remember to send a copy of her death certificate!
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You will all be pleased to know that I have today posted a request to the National Records of Scotland for an extract from the 1939 Register for Ada Young. Cross your fingers that her date of birth will be the 4 Jun 1871. I shall be so upset if this isn't her after all the hard work contributed by everyone.
I did remember to send a copy of her death certificate!
Let us know what happens :D
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Oh my goodness I just found this on the 1939 register in Mynyddislwyn, Monmouthshire :( :( Only 6 miles from Bargoed.
Dates of birth are all wrong but....
Charles Young, born 23rd February 1875, Lay evangelist
Olive Young born 2nd October 1881, unpaid domestic duties.
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Definitely, you'll all be the first to be told. Mind you it may be that you will hear the loud shriek coming from the Chichester direction first!
I've just seen the new post about a Charles and Olive Young in the 1939 register. This is all so complicated. Are there two marriages - Charles and Olive Young and Manton and Ada Young?
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I've suddenly remembered that she has been mentioned before as Ada Olive but to be honest I'm very confused!!!
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I've suddenly remembered that she has been mentioned before as Ada Olive but to be honest I'm very confused!!!
I'm losing the will to live :D
If Charles could become Manton I suppose there's no reason Ada couldn't become Olive ::)
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Oh my goodness I just found this on the 1939 register in Mynyddislwyn, Monmouthshire :( :( Only 6 miles from Bargoed.
Dates of birth are all wrong but....
Charles Young, born 23rd February 1875, Lay evangelist
Olive Young born 2nd October 1881, unpaid domestic duties.
No need to panic yet (I hope!)
There's a marriage in Cardiff, not very far away from there, in 1914
Charles Young + Olive Dalton
A death in Cardiff, Sep 1951
Olive Young, age 59
Probate for her, she was a widow
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=young&yearOfDeath=1951&page=13#calendar
Phew, I've just HAD to read all that thread [37 pages :o] - fascinating. Amazing work everyone & inspired find by John.
Glad you enjoyed it, and very nice of you to say so.
So many people chipped in, not least Jen ;D
I guess it is a classic thread, worth repeating!
John
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Could this be her birth, as Dolton?
Dec 1881 Cardiff 11a 262
Dolton, Olive
mother Ettwell
Would be right on the nail for the d-o-b in 1939.
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I was beginning to think that it was going to be a waste of time asking for the 1939 Scottish extract when it appeared that she was in Wales. Having read everything again (it's a bit like a book now) I see that the names Charles and Ada Young were shown on the electoral rolls in 1934 & 1939 in Edinburgh so felt a great sense of relief. Question is, if this is the correct Ada and Charles and the Welsh couple are a red herring where have they been up until 1934? Also would the marriage be in the non-conformist records as he was an evangelist? I'm not to well up on non-conformists.
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I was beginning to think that it was going to be a waste of time asking for the 1939 Scottish extract when it appeared that she was in Wales.
Sorry I caused a bit of panic! When I saw Charles Young, evangelist, my reaction was rather extreme :-[
if this is the correct Ada and Charles and the Welsh couple are a red herring where have they been up until 1934?
I don't believe the Charles/Manton and Ada in Wales in 1901 and 1911 are a red herring. Charles/Manton appears to have been in Wales until the mid-1920's. I can't find any online electoral rolls for Monmouthshire at the time. They could have been there until the 1930's when they appear in Scotland.
Also would the marriage be in the non-conformist records as he was an evangelist? I'm not to well up on non-conformists.
If there had been a marriage in whatever denomination or in a register office it should be in the GRO indexes.
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You will all be very pleased to know that I received the Scottish 1939 register extract today and I think that you've cracked it! The date of birth given is 4 Jun 1872 which is a year out (should have been 1871) but with the day and month correct I'm sure that this is my great-aunt Ada. As my son said the informant on the death certificate was her husband and he might well have not known or even met her parents therefore the error in the names was understandable. The important point was that her father was a shipwright. The error in the year of birth on the 1939 register could well come down to memory on her part I suppose, but she obviously knew the actual day and month. I must now try to do more research into the marriage of Charles & Ada. I did have a thought that she may well have travelled to America then met and married him over there. Anyway huge, huge thanks to all your efforts in at last discovering her whereabouts. You've all been brilliant.
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Excellent news!
John’s reply #20 was the breakthrough moment.
Throw in an unlikely, but unknown, candidate (since not many Ada Moths about)
Death in Scotland in 1947
Ada Moth
age 73
St Andrew (Edinburgh)
ref 685/2 214
Is also indexed as Ada Young.
Thanks for letting us know.