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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: Wendy2305 on Friday 14 December 18 15:37 GMT (UK)
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Hi I'm having trouble finding the birth of Susan Ogilvie b1865/6 Edinburgh according to the 1911 census
I have her marriage to William in 1897 age 28 parents Stewart Ogilvie and Isabella Johnston both deceased and her death in July 1911 age 46 parents Henry Ogilvie and Mary Johnston both deceased
The death was registered by her husband and I have the correct death as she died in the hospital but usual address is 117 Maitland Street where I found her in the census living next door to her daughter Amelia also the occupations of both her husband and father match the occupations on the marriage
Also living with Susan in 1911 is her daughter Barbara age 8 born Glasgow I can find no other record of Barbara apart from a possible on her fathers death informant B W Desmott ? I have attached the part of the death cert
As a side note Amelia was "adopted" by the Spencers as an infant she married Alexander McNeill in 1902 on this she states the Spencers as her parents as well as her birth mother and has Susan as Spencer formally McFarlane MS Ogilvie and also after Susan's death her husband married Amelia's mother in law Jessie McNeil nee Griffen
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Regarding Barbara-I think the surname is McDermott.
There's this marriage:
MCDERMOTT
THOMAS
STALKER
BARBARA SPENCER
1926
644/13 193
Kelvin
and a death:
MCDERMOTT
BARBARA SPENCER
57
1960
644/5 261
Milton
.......
Maureen
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Thank you Maureen that will be her looks obvious now you've said it
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Not too sure!! She seems to be the daughter of a Christina STALKER. SORRY!!
Maureen
EDIT: And yet....I think it really must be the same person. ::)
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It must be the same person have found a birth of a Barbara Spencer Stalker 1902 and can't find one for a Barbara Spencer will check the cert when I next get credits for Scotland's People
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Potential marriage of parents?
Stewart Ogilvie
Isobel Johnston
Marriage 18 Jun 1844, Dunbar
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Could be but I can't find a birth of a Susan Ogilvie b 1865/6 using Sus Ogil names beginning option on Scotlands People there is one in 1862 Hutchesontown but her parents were James and Isabella Daily
Of course she could be the Illegitimate daughter of one of their children but have also been unable to find any births to this couple
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Noting there's another surname in the equation, may this be worth looking at although not Edinburgh but she possibly didn't really know where she was born?
Birth
MCFARLANE SUSAN
1866
644/3 1302 Bridgeton (Glasgow City)
Annie
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Birth
MCFARLANE SUSAN
1866
644/3 1302 Bridgeton (Glasgow City)
Annie
A transcription is on Anc
Susan Mcfarlane
Mother Janet Harvie
Father Robert Mcfarlane
Birth 18/07/1866 Bridgeton,Glasgow,Lanark,Scotland
Kay
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Thanks for that at least another one ruled out as for the McFarlane have checked for Ogilvie McFarlane marriage in case she was married before although it says spinster on her marriage nothing there are a few starting from 1871 incase her mum married a McFarlane after she was born but still doesn't explain why I can't find a Susan Ogilvie birth
The only thing I can think of is she was "adopted" herself and Susan wasn't the name she was registered with can't even find her before 1901 in the census
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You have two marriage records, 1897 and 1902.
Can you please list all the details on each certificate please.
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The 1897 wedding is of Susan Ogilvie to William Spencer
date 26 Oct 1897 at Oakbank 55 Possill Street Glasgow
William Spencer 26 Tailor Journeyman Bachelor
Susan Ogilvie 28 Spinster
both living at 12 Fleming road Glasgow
Grooms parents John Spencer Iron Turner Jane Spencer formerly Masterson ms Hyde
Brides parents Stewart Ogilvie Railway Engine driver deceased Isabella Ogilvie ms Johnston deceased
Wittiness David Leitch Mary Cunningham
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the 1902 wedding is Amelia Spencer to Alexander McNeill (my daughter's paternal 3x gt grandparents)
Date 25 April 1902 at 50 ?hill Road Glasgow
Alexander Brown McNeill 19 Iron foundry labourer
Amelia Spencer 17 Domestic servant (with a signed statement that this is the surname she has had since infancy that being the name of her adopted parents)
Grooms parents John McNeill and Jessie McNeill MS Griffin
Brides Ellen Muir domestic servant deceased adopted by William Spencer tailor and Susan Spencer formally McFarlane MS Ogilvie
Witness Archibald ? and Jeanie ? (have attached below)
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Can you please give all the information on the 1902 record. What address do you see for Alexander and for Amelia. I am looking for Amelia in 1901 census.
Witnesses might be Archibald LORNE and Jeannie McGUIRE. I cannot see him on the 1901 census. Does he sign on the record?
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"Brides Ellen Muir domestic servant deceased adopted by William Spencer tailor and Susan Spencer formally McFarlane MS Ogilvie"
Am I reading this correctly...Amelia's mother was Ellen Muir and...
Ellen Muir was adopted by "William Spencer" & "Susan Spencer formally McFarlane MS Ogilvie"
Witnesses Archibald Lorne and Jeanie McGuire
Annie
Crossed posts
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Can you please give all the information on the 1902 record. What address do you see for Alexander and for Amelia. I am looking for Amelia in 1901 census.
Witnesses might be Archibald LORNE and Jeannie McGUIRE. I cannot see him on the 1901 census. Does he sign on the record?
Everybody signed and can't make out the address but both were living there at the time of marriage have attached it also they married in Milton Glasgow not familiar with Glasgow
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the only Amelia Spencer in 1901 is in Dunoon Argyll age 16 and can see no births for Amelia Spencer's born between 1880 and 1890 haven't looked at this yet but guessing this is her
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Brides Ellen Muir domestic servant deceased adopted by William Spencer tailor and Susan Spencer formally McFarlane MS Ogilvie
I think that is formerly rather than formally, and that terminology sometimes indicates that she was first married to a Mr McFarlane then to William Spencer. However it can also indicate a change of surname for another reason so it could well be that she is the one registered as Susan McFarlane.
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753 Garscube. Use 1901 Scotland Census with this address to find 41 names, several households, including McFARLANEs....no Amelia, no McNEILLs
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Susan Ogilvie b1865/6 Edinburgh according to the 1911 census
I have her marriage to William in 1897 age 28 parents Stewart Ogilvie and Isabella Johnston both deceased and her death in July 1911 age 46 parents Henry Ogilvie and Mary Johnston both deceased
The death was registered by her husband and I have the correct death as she died in the hospital but usual address is 117 Maitland Street where I found her in the census living next door to her daughter Amelia also the occupations of both her husband and father match the occupations on the marriage
I have a feeling Susan's named parents were possibly her g/parents :-\
OGILVIE STEWART
ISOBEL JOHNSTON FR677
18/06/1844
706/80 122 Dunbar
According to Susan's age when she married (28) this makes her YoB closer to 1869
Annie
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Maybe :-\
STEWART SUSANNA AMELIA 1870
644/10 1506 Hutchesontown
Annie
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Maybe :-\
STEWART SUSANNA AMELIA 1870
644/10 1506 Hutchesontown
Annie
not her her parent's were John Stewart and Susanna Stewart Thomson she married Robert Reid in 1904 in Blythswood but another ruled out
And Forfarian I agree that Stewart and Isabella are more likely to be her grand parents on her death cert her husband names her parents as Henry Ogilvie and Mary Ogilvie MS Johnston but can 1 find no births to Isabella and Stewart to check if they had children or 2 any records for a Henry and Mary
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Might be worth following the family through census' to find out what children they had etc>
1851 (SP) but of course you will also find transcriptions;
OGILVIE STEWART 38
685/2 35/ 8
St Cuthbert's, Midlothian
Others;
Isabella 35
Elizabeth 0
James 3
Annie
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Might be worth following the family through census' to find out what children they had etc>
1851 (SP) but of course you will also find transcriptions;
OGILVIE STEWART 38
685/2 35/ 8
St Cuthbert's, Midlothian
Others;
Isabella 35
Elizabeth 0
James 3
Annie
Thank you have been looking but somehow missed this will follow them through the census
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That certainly looks promising Stewarts occupation is railway porter which could match the railway engine driver on Susan marriage an death cert also Isabella b Dunbar I believe you have found them Thank you
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Have you checked this birth yet, Wendy?
Susan Johnson
Birth Date 16 Aug 1869
Birthplace EDINBURGH PARISH
Mother's Name Susan Johnson
Monica
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Mmmm :-\
Susan Johnson Snr had a number of children, all in Edinburgh and all registered under Johnston (and variants):
John 1865
Susan 1869
Mary McNeil 1871
Hugh McNeil 1873
Caroline Findlay 1874
I can see this entry in 1881?
John McNeill 50 Teacher Of Dancing b. Edinburgh
Malcolm McNeill 18
Margaret McNeill 16
John McNeill 15
Susan McNeill 11
Mary McNeill 9
Hugh McNeill 8
Address: 29 North Bridge, Edibnburgh St Giles
Last four children could fit for those showing on FS and listed above.
Not sure about this one...
Monica
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Struggling to find them after 1851 can't find a death for a Stewart Ogilvie so possibly died before 1855 there is a death for a Isabella Oglivie other name Johnston died 1881 age 61 which would fit with both being deceased before Susan marriage another to check when I get more credits so it doesn't appear she remarried if it's her
Maybe just looking to hard
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Struggling to find them after 1851 can't find a death for a Stewart Ogilvie so possibly died before 1855 there is a death for a Isabella Oglivie other name Johnston died 1881 age 61 which would fit with both being deceased before Susan marriage another to check when I get more credits so it doesn't appear she remarried if it's her
Maybe just looking to hard
I think this is Isabella (on the image listed as a widow) and family in 1861 - living in Canongate with daughter Susan - did she lie about her age??? :-\
Isabella Ogilvie 36 b Dunbar
James Ogilvie 14
Elizabeth Ogilvie 12
Susan Ogilvie 8
Alexander Ogilvie 18 Mo
Kay
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Couldn't resist checking the 1881 death for Isabella. Looks perfect and on the other part the informant was daughter Susan - of 8 Beaumont Place!
Kay
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Struggling to find them after 1851 can't find a death for a Stewart Ogilvie so possibly died before 1855 there is a death for a Isabella Oglivie other name Johnston died 1881 age 61 which would fit with both being deceased before Susan marriage another to check when I get more credits so it doesn't appear she remarried if it's her
Maybe just looking to hard
I think this is Isabella (on the image listed as a widow) and family in 1861 - living in Canongate with daughter Susan - did she lie about her age??? :-\
Isabella Ogilvie 36 b Dunbar
James Ogilvie 14
Elizabeth Ogilvie 12
Susan Ogilvie 8
Alexander Ogilvie 18 Mo
Kay
Wow good spot Kay as for lying about her age possible her Husband was born 1870/1 in Ireland and she lied about her age on her marriage by a couple of years she was 28 born c.1869 45 in 1911 census born c. 1866 and 46 in July of 1911 also according to 1911 census she had 1 child born 1 still living which could be Barbara she calls her daughter but Barbara could be the daughter born to Christina Stalker as found above also Amelia states she was taken in when she was an infant and her birth would make Susan 20 years old so according to the census Susan had no biological children of her own
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and thank you Kay for checking the death cert sorry does it say where about 8 Beaumont Place is
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"Brides Ellen Muir domestic servant deceased adopted by William Spencer tailor and Susan Spencer formally McFarlane MS Ogilvie"
Am I reading this correctly...Amelia's mother was Ellen Muir and...
Ellen Muir was adopted by William Spencer & Susan Spencer formally McFarlane MS Ogilvie
Witnesses Archibald Lorne and Jeanie McGuire
Annie
Crossed posts
Sorry Annie missed this earlier Amelia was "adopted" by the Spencers as an Infant according to her marriage but they married 13 years after she was born Amelia's birth mothe was Ellen Muir who was diseased by 1902
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and thank you Kay for checking the death cert sorry does it say where about 8 Beaumont Place is
[/quote
Sadly not -will attach the bit - we can't post whole certs
Kay
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Think I may have found Beaumount place I googled it and there is a Beaumount Place in Dumbiedykes Edinburgh in 1959 it was the scene of the Penny Tenement collapse leaving 18 families homeless
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Sadly Beaumont Place, Edinburgh doesn't come on an address search of F M P for 1881
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Thanks for looking Kay the site about the tenement collapse says the tenements were built in 1820 and demolished 1959 through the 60's
and thank you to everyone who helped don' think I would have figured it out myself it looks like she shaved 22 years off her age
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I think you are researching the origins of Amelia SPENCE marr. Alexander McNEILL, 1902.
What are her origins.....birth....parents?
On birth records for her children how is Amelia named......what family name.....and informant is useful.
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I think you are researching the origins of Amelia SPENCE marr. Alexander McNEILL, 1902.
What are her origins.....birth....parents?
On birth records for her children how is Amelia named......what family name.....and informant is useful.
Amelia was born about 1884 in Glasgow her mother was Ellen Muir deceased by 1902 according to Amelia's marriage the only name she was known by was Amelia Spencer as far as I know she never knew her birth name I was given the birth date of 24 Oct by a descendent who knew her but nobody has found her birth as far as I know Her family didn't even know she was "adopted" until her marriage was looked at after her death
I don't have the births of her children as I was given the information by the same descendent which I have found in the index of Scotlands People
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Has this birth been discounted?
AMELIA FISHER MUIR
1882
644/6 937
Glasgow/ St Rollox
Monica
ADDED: this Amelia likely died as a baby. There is a death entry for an Amelia Fisher Muir in St Rollox in 1882.
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Just adding as a possible for death of Amelia's mother, given the young age & area of Glasgow?
MUIR ELLEN 28
1892
644/4 56 Calton (Glasgow)
When do you 1st have Amelia on a census with adoptive parents & where?
Annie
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Another possible although a variant which was common, Glasgow area again but yr iffy;
MOORE AMELIA 1886
644/11 879
Hutchesontown
What ages/yob do you have for Amelia from different docs. for a window for her birth?
Annie
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Just adding as a possible for death of Amelia's mother, given the young age & area of Glasgow?
MUIR ELLEN 28
1892
644/4 56 Calton (Glasgow)
When do you 1st have Amelia on a census with adoptive parents & where?
Annie
The only census I can find is 1901 of the Amelia in Dunoon before that her adoptive parents weren't married they married in 1897 which I just found this week There is the issue of Susan being formerly McFarlane and if that is her in 1881 that kay found I still haven't found her in 1891 under either McFarlane or Ogilvie and no marriage between 1881 and 1897
Quick time line
Susan born c 1853 in Edinburgh to Stewart and Isabella
Kay found the 1861 census in Cannongate
1871 haven't been found
1881 Isabella dies daughter Susan informant living in 8 Beaumont Place not found in the census
1884 Amelia born to Ellen Muir Glasgow
1897 Susan Ogivie marries William Spencer
1901 William and Susan are in Kelvin and Amelia in Dunoon which I still have to check
1902 Amelia marries Alexander McNeill and states she was adopted by the Spencers as an infant and is the name she has gone by since then
1911 Susan is living next door to Amelia and Alexander at 117 Maitland Street with daughter Barbara no William
July 1911 Susan dies in hospital usual address 117 Maitland Street Parents Henry and Mary informant husband William
1915 William marries Janet McNeill nee Griffin (mother of Alexander McNeill Amelia's husband)
1938 William dies informant daughter Barbara
l
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the 1902 wedding is Amelia Spencer to Alexander McNeill (my daughter's paternal 3x gt grandparents)
Date 25 April 1902 at 50 ?hill Road Glasgow
The marriage was in the RD of Milton.
Alexander had a middle name Brown.
Wendy, can you please (in future) include RDs of any info. you have on any docs as RD can help a lot in research & any middle names/initials as this can help a lot too also ages/yob which can change from 1 doc to another & helps with windows for narrowing down possibles ;)
Annie
Add, Can you please also include surname used in events where people have changes of name as it makes it easier for others to follow :)
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Another possible although a variant which was common, Glasgow area again but yr iffy;
MOORE AMELIA 1886
644/11 879
Hutchesontown
What ages/yob do you have for Amelia from different docs. for a window for her birth?
Annie
On her marriage she is 17
in 1911 she is 26
and on her death in 1971 she is 86
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Amelia Spencer in 1901 is in Dunoon Argyll age 16
Address: 14 Park Terr Glebe, Dunoon and Kilmun, Argyll
Andrew Robertson (Head) 27, Clerk, b Galston, Ayrshire
Bessie Robertson (Wife) 29 b Perth, Perthshire
Amelia Spencer's Pob is given as Govan, Renfrew, c 1885, Occ. Servant (I believe Govan was in Glasgow &/or Lanarkshire)
Annie
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Amelia Spencer in 1901 is in Dunoon Argyll age 16
Address: 14 Park Terr Glebe, Dunoon and Kilmun, Argyll
Andrew Robertson (Head) 27, Clerk, b Galston, Ayrshire
Bessie Robertson (Wife) 29 b Perth, Perthshire
Amelia Spencer's Pob is given as Govan, Renfrew, c 1885, Occ. Servant (I believe Govan was in Glasgow &/or Lanarkshire)
Annie
Thank you as the 1911 just gives Glasgow so possibly narrows it down
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This one looks interesting!
Monica found ref. to surname Findlay (Reply #26), i.e. a possible connection?
FINDLAY AMELIA 1882
646/2 348 Govan
Annie
Add..."1911 just gives Glasgow so possibly narrows it down"
The only ref. to 1911 without viewing it, is the index on SP as there are no transcriptions anywhere.
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Just adding another possible (using date/area) although the middle name isn't obvious from previous names found?
FINDLAY AMELIA MCGREGOR 1883
646/2 1309 Govan
Annie
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I have the 1911 census and it just says Glasgow Lanark for birth place
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Monica found ref. to surname Findlay (Reply #26), i.e. a possible connection?
FINDLAY AMELIA 1882
646/2 348 Govan
I couldn't resist looking but sadly this can be eliminated!
Parents are George Findlay & Charlotte Smith
"I have the 1911 census and it just says Glasgow Lanark for birth place"
Was this for Amelia, what is the address/area the census was taken, what was her age & who else was in the household with relationships or other?
Annie
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Have found Isabella Ogilvie in 1871 at Greenside, Canongate, Midlothian - aged 47, born Dunbar - described as Criminal Prisoner!! Oh dear!
Annette
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Monica found ref. to surname Findlay (Reply #26), i.e. a possible connection?
FINDLAY AMELIA 1882
646/2 348 Govan
I couldn't resist looking but sadly this can be eliminated!
Parents are George Findlay & Charlotte Smith
"I have the 1911 census and it just says Glasgow Lanark for birth place"
Was this for Amelia, what is the address/area the census was taken, what was her age & who else was in the household with relationships or other?
Annie
Yes for Amelia living at 117 Maitland Street with her husband Alexander and children Susan and John Susan's full birth name was Susan Ogilvie Spencer McNeill in the household above is Susan Spencer nee Ogilvie with her "daughter" Barbara who we found out was Barbara Spencer Stalker daughter of Christina Stalker in reply no 2 by MaureeninNY
Susan Spencer died in July of 1911 in hospital usual address 117 Maitland street informant husband William
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Have found Isabella Ogilvie in 1871 at Greenside, Canongate, Midlothian - aged 47, born Dunbar - described as Criminal Prisoner!! Oh dear!
Annette
Oh dear indeed Annette thank you nothing surprises me now with this family
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Maitland Street is in the Reginal Parish of Barony Glasgow and Amelia was 26
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"Amelia living at 117 Maitland Street with her husband Alexander and children Susan and John"
I have searched for 20 mins & cannot find Amelia McNeill (in any form) in 1911 census aged 26 in Barony or her husband, time for sleep I think.
Annie
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At 1902, when 17 year old Amelia SPENCER gives information about herself, I think it is very unlikely that she would give so much detail about Susan SPENCER.......her maiden name..........use of name McFARLANE.
This is more information than needed for the purpose. Would Amelia even know that much information about Susan............and give it for her marriage record? I think that someone else has given this information....and it sounds like it is from a.........file?.....institutional record?
Who is there when minor Amelia marries?
"...Amelia Spencer 17 Domestic servant (with a signed statement that this is the surname she has had since infancy that being the name of her adopted parents)"
"... Ellen Muir domestic servant deceased adopted by William Spencer tailor and Susan Spencer formally McFarlane MS Ogilvie"
Can you please crop and present the two pieces of the record that show this information.
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Wivenhoe,
Glad I'm not the only one to wonder as it seemed ott (to me) & not the 'norm' but the way it was presented on this thread I didn't want to question it as it seemed correct although very strange indeed!
I now wonder if any of the Amelias I found on the 1911 census, nowhere near Glasgow are actually her as there are a couple of possibles although not with her marital surname of McNeill (another strange thing) given she married in 1902 :-\
Annie
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Who is there when minor Amelia marries?
The law in Scotland pre 1929 without parental consent was 12 yrs (male) & 14 yrs (female) now 16 yrs hence the reason many came over the border from south to Gretna Green.
It would still be interesting to know names of witnesses & any extra info. which may help further?
Annie
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Continuing the bizarreness of this family, and bearing in mind the former surname McFarlane given when Susan died, how about this:
In 1881 a Susan McFarlane, 25, born Edinburgh is living with her husband Myles McFarlane in Edinburgh (not at address mentioned previously though). They have no children.
I looked for a marriage for them and could only find this:
Miles McFarlane 19, Carter, married Susan Crew, 18, Paper Stainer on 31/12/1872 (last day of year and comes up as 1873 on SP marriage index) at Port Dundas Church, Glasgow. She is shown as the daughter of a Henry Crew, Private 92nd Foot and Isabella Crew, formerly Johnston .
I'm wondering whether Stewart Ogilvie died very soon after the 1851 census and that his widow Isabella then had daughter Susan ca.1853 by the soldier Henry Crew. (Can find no marriage between a Henry Crew and Isabella Johnston).
In 1861 Isabella Ogilvie is with 4 children, one being Susan. In 1871 we now know Isabella was in prison and this could have prompted the move to Glasgow for Susan. When she marries Miles McFarlane she does so in the name of her natural father and as if her parents were married.
Sometime between 1881 and 1891 the couple split - Miles is still in Glasgow in 1891 but claiming to be unmarried. Can't find Susan anywhere. She then decides to marry William Spencer in 1897 and also claims to be unmarried using the name Ogilvie which she'd grown up with, and this time citing her father as Stewart Ogilvie, Isabella's dead husband.
Perhaps these events are all 'red herrings' but a 'Henry' (albeit given as Ogilvie) is shown as her father when she died, plus indicates she was previously married to a McFarlane.
It's been mentioned that Susan had no children and interesting to note that Miles McFarlane and wife Susan had been married 8 years in 1881 and they had no children!
Thought I'd run this by you anyway.
Annette
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the 1911 census details in Scotland's People is 644/9 29/ 25 in Milton McNeill spelt with 2 l's and below is the marriage of Amelia Spencer
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the 1902 wedding is Amelia Spencer to Alexander McNeill (my daughter's paternal 3x gt grandparents)
Date 25 April 1902 at 50 ?hill Road Glasgow
Alexander Brown McNeill 19 Iron foundry labourer
Amelia Spencer 17 Domestic servant (with a signed statement that this is the surname she has had since infancy that being the name of her adopted parents)
Grooms parents John McNeill and Jessie McNeill MS Griffin
Brides Ellen Muir domestic servant deceased adopted by William Spencer tailor and Susan Spencer formally McFarlane MS Ogilvie
Witness Archibald ? and Jeanie ? (have attached below)
And this is the details from that marriage the witness were Archibald Lorne and Jeanie McGuire from reply 14 by Rosinish
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I have just noticed I searched for Alexander in 1911 not checking what Scotland's People have transcribed Amelia they have her as Cecilia that will be why you are having trouble finding her
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Brilliant sleuthing Annette, you've got your teeth right into this enigma, fantastic work & does look very, very likely!
"1911 census details in Scotland's People is 644/9 29/ 25 in Milton McNeill spelt with 2 l's and below is the marriage of Amelia Spencer"
Thank you...my head was sore :D
Where is Alexander's Pob given as?
Annie
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"Miles McFarlane 19, Carter, married Susan Crew, 18, Paper Stainer on 31/12/1872 (last day of year and comes up as 1873 on SP marriage index)
The yr on the index is when it was officially registered which happens with any event close to the end of any year.
Annie
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Continuing the bizarreness of this family, and bearing in mind the former surname McFarlane given when Susan died, how about this:
In 1881 a Susan McFarlane, 25, born Edinburgh is living with her husband Myles McFarlane in Edinburgh (not at address mentioned previously though). They have no children.
I looked for a marriage for them and could only find this:
Miles McFarlane 19, Carter, married Susan Crew, 18, Paper Stainer on 31/12/1872 (last day of year and comes up as 1873 on SP marriage index) at Port Dundas Church, Glasgow. She is shown as the daughter of a Henry Crew, Private 92nd Foot and Isabella Crew, formerly Johnston .
I'm wondering whether Stewart Ogilvie died very soon after the 1851 census and that his widow Isabella then had daughter Susan ca.1853 by the soldier Henry Crew. (Can find no marriage between a Henry Crew and Isabella Johnston).
In 1861 Isabella Ogilvie is with 4 children, one being Susan. In 1871 we now know Isabella was in prison and this could have prompted the move to Glasgow for Susan. When she marries Miles McFarlane she does so in the name of her natural father and as if her parents were married.
Sometime between 1881 and 1891 the couple split - Miles is still in Glasgow in 1891 but claiming to be unmarried. Can't find Susan anywhere. She then decides to marry William Spencer in 1897 and also claims to be unmarried using the name Ogilvie which she'd grown up with, and this time citing her father as Stewart Ogilvie, Isabella's dead husband.
Perhaps these events are all 'red herrings' but a 'Henry' (albeit given as Ogilvie) is shown as her father when she died, plus indicates she was previously married to a McFarlane.
It's been mentioned that Susan had no children and interesting to note that Miles McFarlane and wife Susan had been married 8 years in 1881 and they had no children!
Thought I'd run this by you anyway.
Annette
Very interesting Annette I can find no death of a Susan Crew other name McFarlane in Scotland also there's a death of a Miles Mcfarlane in 1894 in St George Edinburgh age is 58 so way out but not discounting anything it's the closest one I can find in age
So I wonder if William and Susan had been living as husband and wife before they were married and only marrying after they knew Miles had died explaining why Amelia had stated she was with them since infancy when she was 13 when they did actually marry
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Brilliant sleuthing Annette, you've got your teeth right into this enigma, fantastic work & does look very, very likely!
"1911 census details in Scotland's People is 644/9 29/ 25 in Milton McNeill spelt with 2 l's and below is the marriage of Amelia Spencer"
Thank you...my head was sore :D
18
Where is Alexander's Pob given as?
Annie
just Glasgow he was the son of John Mcneill b1854 Kirkmicheal and Janet Griffin b1862 Glasgow d 1928 Kelvin Glasgow
John died somewhere between 1901 and 1915 when Janet married William Spencer (Amelia's adopted father)Ihaven't narrowed John's death yet
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Brilliant sleuthing Annette, you've got your teeth right into this enigma, fantastic work & does look very, very likely!
"1911 census details in Scotland's People is 644/9 29/ 25 in Milton McNeill spelt with 2 l's and below is the marriage of Amelia Spencer"
Thank you...my head was sore :D
Where is Alexander's Pob given as?
Annie
Your head is sore I can usually figure families out but this one had me really stuck I've been going round in circles scratching my head
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What names do you have for children of Amelia SPENCER and Alexander McNEILL?
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Wow -Brilliant sleuthing and what an incredible family
Just to tidy up Stewart Olgilvie - He died in 1852 and by the look of the snips attached he was killed by an accident on the railway
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What names do you have for children of Amelia SPENCER and Alexander McNEILL?
This is a snip of the family in the 1911 census which I looked at yesterday. Alex listed as born Glasgow
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Wow -Brilliant sleuthing and what an incredible family
Just to tidy up Stewart Olgilvie - He died in 1852 and by the look of the snips attached he was killed by an accident on the railway
I agree brilliant work by everyone thank you I couldn't have figured it out by myself
Just checked Scotlands People for Stewarts death and see he died in Sep 1852 I'm not gonna try and figure out if he or the Henry Crew found by Annette is the father of Susan I think that would be one headache to far
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I can't see a baptism for Susan as Crew or Ogilivie and I wonder who was the father of Isabella's youngest son Alexander?? :-\
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A maybe for son Alexander from 1861:
Alexander Potter
Birth Date 21 Oct 1859
Birthplace EDINBURGH PARISH
Father's Name James Potter
Mother's Name Isabella Johnston
Monica
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What a tough old search this one. Well done all of you!
Monica
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A maybe for son Alexander from 1861:
Alexander Potter
Birth Date 21 Oct 1859
Birthplace EDINBURGH PARISH
Father's Name James Potter
Mother's Name Isabella Johnston
Monica
I think you are right Monica. I peeked at the image and the address was Campbell Close, Cannongate which was the street Isabella and family were living at in 1861! Informant Elizabeth Johnston - Aunt??
Kay
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Possible sighting for Susan in Edinburgh in 1871.
Family Search have this for 1871:
Susan Crewe
Event Type Census
Event Date 1871
Age 19
Birthplace Midlothian
Registration District St Giles
Birth Year (Estimated) 1852
SP have nothing matching...nor does A/try :-\
Family Search also show for this entry: from "1871 England, Scotland & Wales census," database, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : 2012);
This entry must show there?
Monica
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It's been mentioned that Susan had no children and interesting to note that Miles McFarlane and wife Susan had been married 8 years in 1881 and they had no children!
Annette
I think that may be no living children
They do appear to have had a daughter Isabella
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQWS-JBV
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Have found Isabella Ogilvie in 1871 at Greenside, Canongate, Midlothian - aged 47, born Dunbar - described as Criminal Prisoner!! Oh dear!
Annette
Or as Ancestry have her - Julika No wonder I could't find her!
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Possible sighting for Susan in Edinburgh in 1871.
Family Search have this for 1871:
Susan Crewe
Event Type Census
Event Date 1871
Age 19
Birthplace Midlothian
Registration District St Giles
Birth Year (Estimated) 1852
SP have nothing matching...nor does A/try :-\
Family Search also show for this entry: from "1871 England, Scotland & Wales census," database, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : 2012);
This entry must show there?
Monica
SP has a 19-year-old Susan Cunn in St Giles in 1871. There is no listing of Susan Cunn on FS.
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Just to add to the mix- the Edinburgh Evening News 26 August 1881 has an article about an attack in a close on South Bridge Edinburgh on " Susan Ogilvie or McFarlane and Grace Hunter or Ogilvie, residing in Beaumont Place".
(Think Grace Ogilvie is showing in 1881 as married to James Ogilvie a painter b Dunbar living in Covenant Close, High Street).
William
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Just to add to the mix- the Edinburgh Evening News 26 August 1881 has an article about an attack in a close on South Bridge Edinburgh on " Susan Ogilvie or McFarlane and Grace Hunter or Ogilvie, residing in Beaumont Place".
(Think Grace Ogilvie is showing in 1881 as married to James Ogilvie a painter b Dunbar living in Covenant Close, High Street).
William
Thanks again everyone and William that newspaper now links Susan Ogilvie daughter of Isabella Johnston to the McFarlane name which probably links it all up
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There are a couple of articles about the accident which killed Stewart Ogilvy:
Edinburgh Evening Courant 9 Oct 1852 - there is a lot of detail.
Edinburgh Evening Courant 12 Oct 1852 concludes "He was much respected as a steady and industrious man,and has left a wife and three children".
I also note this birth:
17 May 1874 Edinburgh
Isabella Johnston Ogilvie
Parents James Ogilvie and Grace Hunter
James may, therefore,be Susan's brother. I cannot see any evidence that James and Grace married. Someone has, however, posted birth certs. of their sons, David Hunter and William Alexander Ogillvie on their tree on Ancestry.
William
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I also note this birth:
17 May 1874 Edinburgh
Isabella Johnston Ogilvie
Parents James Ogilvie and Grace Hunter
James may, therefore,be Susan's brother. I cannot see any evidence that James and Grace married. Someone has, however, posted birth certs. of their sons, David Hunter and William Alexander Ogillvie on their tree on Ancestry.
The birth certs should state the date and place of parents' marriage.
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Yes indeed they do - 17 Dec 1873 in Edinburgh.There is no corresponding marriage record on SP.