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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: sasarina on Friday 21 December 18 06:31 GMT (UK)

Title: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Friday 21 December 18 06:31 GMT (UK)
Hi, I am wondering if anyone could help?
I am searching for an ancestor, what a wonderful name to be searching.
She was convicted at The Old Bailey on the 2/12/1812, and transported on the Broxbornebury arriving Australia 1814.
I am terribly confused, trying  to confirm that she was on the Brox.
I have some research stating that a Sarah Blades came on this vessel arrival 1814,  she came free and apparently married a George Smith in Sydney in 1818 I think?
I am wondering if there was a Sarah Blades and a Sarah Smith on this voyage?  I have not been able to find where Sarah Smith was between 1812 (her conviction)  and 1814 (her arrival in Sydney). 
Hoping someone can help with this?  I know it's a big search area with such a common name.
Cheers
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: Jamjar on Friday 21 December 18 06:59 GMT (UK)
From NSW State Arcives & Records:

SMITH Sarah Broxbornebury 1814 25/405 Ticket of Leave [4/4060; Reel 890] District: Melville; Born: Herts 1785;

Her TOL cancelled in 1831, 1st column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article12843013

Jamjar
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: Jamjar on Friday 21 December 18 07:05 GMT (UK)
The only Sarah Blades:

IRELAND, John Ship:Ann and Amelia Age: 29; Sentence: Life; Condition: Bond to BLADES, Sarah A   - -   Age: 18; Born in colony; Condition: Free 6 Oct 1826 COWPER, Revd William Sydney NRS 12212 [4/4511 p.018] no.209; Reel 714; Fiche 789-790

Jamjar
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: Jamjar on Friday 21 December 18 07:18 GMT (UK)
Blades’ marriages:

2071/1817 V18172071 3A HARRIS Joseph BLADES Esther CA

2190/1818 V18182190 3A SMITH George BLADES Sarah CA

3922/1826 V18263922 3B IRELAND John BLADES Sarah A CA

Jamjar
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 21 December 18 07:33 GMT (UK)
Sarah BLADES  :)

Colonial Sec papers 1788-1825

Letter May 4, 5 in 1818
Sarah BLADES, widow of Thomas BLADES seeking permission to marry George SMITH at Sydney.  Sarah Blades noted as Came Free, Broxbornebury 1814.

 :) so that's NOT her maiden surname :D   I have seen BLAYDE and other variations too. 

There's several hundred lasses 'Sarah SMITH' on the Biographical Database of Australia  :) (a non-profit project) ...  the index is free to search, and the annual fee for full access is $30. 
  https://www.bda-online.org.au/
and the Col Sec papers:
 http://colsec.records.nsw.gov.au/ 
I understand Ancestry has uploaded images of many of  those  :)

Mention of Sarah BLADES on this website, as came free with her 3 children to meet up with her husband, a convict ... https://www.jenwilletts.com/convict_ship_broxbornebury_1814.htm

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: Jamjar on Friday 21 December 18 07:40 GMT (UK)
Thomas died 1815:

3339/1815 V18153339 2B BLADE Thomas AGE 34

Added: A son: 3659/1815 V18153659 1B BLADES Thomas parents THOMAS and SARAH

Jamjar
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 21 December 18 07:41 GMT (UK)
Sarah SMITH,  Col Sec Papers  :)

SMITH, Sarah Per Broxbornebury, 1814
1825  Servant of Captain John Piper; testimony as to her character for a ticket of leave (Reel 6027; 4/1717.1 pp.126-7)
John Piper was the Royal Navy chap after whom the exclusive suburb of Point Piper takes its name.

JM

Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: Jamjar on Friday 21 December 18 07:43 GMT (UK)
JM, if her TOL was cancelled in 1831 as Sarah Smith, does that mean she was still unmarried.

Jamjar
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 21 December 18 07:51 GMT (UK)
JM, if her TOL was cancelled in 1831 as Sarah Smith, does that mean she was still unmarried.

Jamjar

I am wondering if there's a female convict and also a convict's wife with three children, on the voyage out...  Sarah, UX of Thomas BLADES ... seems from one of those links I posted that Thomas was on the Surry, same timeframe as his wife and children...

I am wondering why a ToL was cancelled in 1831 when the female was transported back in 1814 ... very very long sentence ... I have not sighted the ToL - not on my usual puter but a ToL should show the name of the ship of arrival, and also should be written up with the same name as arrived under,  not written up with a changed name    ::)   - of course there are possible exceptions ...but usually the paperwork will be written up to match the convict indent held by penal Admin...  :D .

So very many lasses indexed as Sarah SMITH in the penal era....  hundreds ...

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 21 December 18 07:54 GMT (UK)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2200430  Sydney Gaz,  May 1831

Not attending Muster

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: Jamjar on Friday 21 December 18 07:57 GMT (UK)
Yes her details are in reply #1.

Jamjar
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 21 December 18 07:57 GMT (UK)
Sarah Smith, convicted Old Bailey as per this link:  (confirms our OP's info)
http://www.historyaustralia.org.au/twconvic/Broxbornebury+1814

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 21 December 18 08:00 GMT (UK)
LIFE for pick pocketing ... wow ... now if only I could recover some of the many pens nicked off my desk by clients, business partner/spouse ...   :)

JM  :D  :D
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 21 December 18 08:03 GMT (UK)
So the Sarah who married George SMITH in 1818 was NOT the Sarah who was transported under the sentence of Life.  The Sarah who married George SMITH in 1818 was a widow with young children. 

 :)

JM

Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 21 December 18 08:20 GMT (UK)
 :D
27 May 1818, marriage C of E, Rev William Cowper
George SMITH, aged 38, a bachelor, of Sydney, a Shoemaker (he signed)
and
Sarah BLADES, aged 35, a widow, of Sydney (she made her X mark)
Witnesses William Brown (X mark)
Mary Tristram (signed)

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 21 December 18 08:43 GMT (UK)
....
She was convicted at The Old Bailey on the 2/12/1812, and transported on the Broxbornebury ....  I have not been able to find where Sarah Smith was between 1812 (her conviction)  and 1814 (her arrival in Sydney). 

So you are looking for Sarah 2 December 1812 to 22 February 1814...
....  She was transported to Port Jackson (Sydney New South Wales) per the Broxbornebury which sailed 22 February 1814, arriving 28 July 1814

Old Bailey ... so you are looking for where the female convicts sentenced to transportation beyond the seas were held prior to their actual transportation... Old Bailey ... London Central Criminal Court...

fingers crossed this may help  :)
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/criminal-trials-assize-courts-1559-1971/

JM




Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Friday 21 December 18 09:24 GMT (UK)
Thanks to everyone for your reply, Yes I must be stupid to try and research Sarah Smith
I think I can remember reading something a while ago in Trove that she did not turn up for the convict muster, oh just noticed Jamjar beat me to it.  I never noticed her TOL was cancelled.
I wonder who this Sarah Blades is that is mentioned in the Colonial Sec. Papers of Sarah Blades came free on the Broxbornebury? so these are 2 different people?
To go a step further I am trying to find if this Sarah Smith is the one that married a Thomas Weavers? in 1833
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Friday 21 December 18 09:30 GMT (UK)
JM,  do you know how to use the National Archives UK,  I have never been able to get into it?
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 21 December 18 09:34 GMT (UK)
Hi,

Are you sure that your ancestor is the Sarah SMITH convicted at the Old Bailey? 

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 21 December 18 09:35 GMT (UK)
 :) http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/archives-sector/finding-records-in-discovery-and-other-databases/

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Friday 21 December 18 09:39 GMT (UK)
Jm, No not sure, I am trying to create a timeline, and possibly eliminate 
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 21 December 18 09:49 GMT (UK)
Well, Sarah who married George SMITH is clearly NOT the lass who was tried at the Old Bailey.    :)

Are you descended from George SMITH or from Thomas WEAVERS? 

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 21 December 18 10:09 GMT (UK)
I think a Thomas WEAVERS married a Sarah SMITH 19 Sept 1833
and
I think a Thomas George, son of a Thomas and Sarah WEAVERS was born 28 Oct 1833 and baptised C of E 12 January 1834 by Rev Richard HILL.  Thomas and Sarah were of Castlereagh St, Sydney. He a carter.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCT-4BH  marriage, look at the status

ADD  so you are looking at Sydney, September 1833 and earlier for a Mrs Sarah SMITH.   :) but as to when and where she was married to Mr Smith ? 

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 21 December 18 10:16 GMT (UK)
 :)  agh ...
Are you looking for the Sarah WEAVERS who died Bathurst NSW, aged 92 in 1876 ... 

I am a tad Central West NSW centric ...  :)

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 21 December 18 10:32 GMT (UK)
 :)

Someone has the death certificate for the Sarah WEAVERS who died 1876, Bathurst.  The informant was her son, a James SMITH, of Reedy Creek, Blayney.  He knew the info about both her marriages, and the children of those marriages.  :) ... She did NOT arrive 1814 on the Broxbornebury ...

https://australianroyalty.net.au/individual.php?pid=I17574&ged=purnellmccord.ged

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Saturday 22 December 18 04:55 GMT (UK)
I just wanted to apologize had to log off quick last night, storm approaching.

JM, 
I have that death cert. for Sarah Weavers, and that is what I am trying to match up.
If you check the dates and years in the colony, place of birth, it matches up with Sarah Smith who arrived on the Broxbornebury.
I have a copy of her TOL dated 1825, this also matches up, states birth Hertfordshire, ship Broxbornebury, name Sarah Smith arrival 1814.

I am the gg granddaughter of a Charles Lewis and Mary Anne Smith,  Mary Anne was the daughter of a Sarah Lake and William Smith, that's where it all gets so confusing?
A lot of people have Sarah Lake as the Sarah that married Thomas Weavers in 1833 after William died, but that can't be correct, Sarah Lake was convicted Devon assizes, and arrived 1808 on the Aeolus, I also spotted a document of convict deaths, Sarah Smith, Aeolus died Parramatta Hospital 1841.
My head goes into a spin every time I try to sort this out?
We have Sarah Blades, Sarah Smith, Broxbornebury, Sarah Lake, Aeolus.
I am trying to find out the Sarah that married Thomas Weavers, otherwise I can't establish a link to my gg grandmother Mary Ann Smith?
Hope this makes sense
Add
There is also an OBT for Sarah Weavers died 21/7/1876 Bathurst, widow of J Weavers Esq. beloved mother of the late Mrs W Mulhall Sen. 

Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Saturday 22 December 18 06:03 GMT (UK)
If you are sure your ancestor was Sarah LAKE, then you need to look for her,  ??? .....  the info on the d.c
 Re how long in the colony is never  first hand info

My turn this year for full house of visitors for festivities,  so I may be tardy in replies too.  I will look up some offline resources asap.

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Saturday 22 December 18 06:29 GMT (UK)
Thanking you,  I am trying to establish who married Thomas Weavers, Sarah Lake or Sarah Smith, the Sarah Smith is my first candidate as the birthplace of Hertfordshire also matches, if it was Sarah Smith, Hertfordshire then he would not be related? Sarah Lake was 16 when transported so if it was her who married Thomas Weavers she would have been 60 y/o not 92 y/o.

Just one last question please? Do you anything about Wikipedia? where does the info come from? is it reliable?

There is a story about Thomas and Sarah Weavers, harbouring a bushranger named John Piesley,  he was eventually hanged at Bathurst.
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: Jamjar on Saturday 22 December 18 07:20 GMT (UK)
As Wikipedia can be edited by anyone, even you, it isn’t necessarily correct.

The universities I have study at, do not consider it an acceptable reference item in bibliography lists.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:FAQ/Overview

Jamjar

Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Saturday 22 December 18 08:19 GMT (UK)
 :) 

Yes,  Jamjar is spot on.   :)

I was expecting this thread to have moved over to the Australia board, where it would catch the eyes there of the regulars.

Anyways, here's some info I have typed up. The following is somewhat dis-jointed, I apologise, but I am rushing.  There’s a deal more I can type up, but I have no spare moments.

I am basically eliminating the two girls you have under consideration who arrived on the Broxbornebury.   Sorry  ::)

I have already shown that the Sarah BLADES who married George SMITH is NOT your lass.


Parramatta New South Wales, Australia
Many of St John’s Church of England parish registers for Baptisms, Marriages, Burials have been digitised and uploaded to Ancestry. 

This marriage basically eliminates the convicted lass.

A marriage at St Johns C of E Parramatta.
No. 464
William SHERRIES, free, aged 33, of the Parish of St Johns, Parramatta and Sarah SMITH of the Parish of St John Parramatta by the Broxbornbury, aged 27 were married in this Church by Banns, this Sixth Day of April in the year One Thousand eight Hundred and fifteen, by Rev Samuel MARSDEN. 

So of your three candidates, - there’s still  Sarah LAKE. ;)  ;)  ;)

Several Baptisms at St Johns C of E Parramatta


Susannah, daughter of George PALMER and Sarah LAKE, born 10 Sept 1809. Baptised 1 October 1809 by Rev Richard Jones, St Johns (C of E) Parramatta.  (this baptism may have been indexed under PALMER ! )
Mary Ann, daughter of William SMITH & Sarah his wife was Born March 1815 and Christened May 14, 1815. Registered Same day by Samuel Marsden.
Census with a Sarah SMITH, her children, and a Thomas WEAVERS
NSW 1828 Census, Prospect 
In the household of a Sarah SMITH, aged 38, who was Free by Servitude, and who had arrived per Aeolis 1809, under a sentence of 7 years were:
Son, John, 18 years, B.C. (born in the colony)
Daughter, Charlotte, 16 years, B.C.
Daughter, Mary Ann, 14 years, B.C.
Daughter, Elizabeth, 12 years, B.C.
Son, William, 5 years, B.C.
Son, James, 18 months, B.C.
AND
Thomas WEAVERS 32 years, Free by Servitude, arrived per Shipley 1816, 7 years, Labourer,
Thomas BRUCE, 51 years Free by Servitude, arrived per Baring, 1819, 7 years, Labourer,
ALL were Protestant.
NOTE,
no mention of Sarah’s husband, but Thomas WEAVERS was already working for Sarah.     Sarah SMITH signed off on the Census document with her x mark.


Earlier I typed up the marriage of Sarah and Thomas.


Eliminating Sarah BLADES
So the Sarah who married George SMITH in 1818 was NOT the Sarah who was transported under the sentence of Life.  The Sarah who married George SMITH in 1818 was a widow with young children. 

 :)

JM


:D
27 May 1818, marriage C of E, Rev William Cowper
George SMITH, aged 38, a bachelor, of Sydney, a Shoemaker (he signed)
and
Sarah BLADES, aged 35, a widow, of Sydney (she made her X mark)
Witnesses William Brown (X mark)
Mary Tristram (signed)

JM

I think a Thomas WEAVERS married a Sarah SMITH 19 Sept 1833
and
I think a Thomas George, son of a Thomas and Sarah WEAVERS was born 28 Oct 1833 and baptised C of E 12 January 1834 by Rev Richard HILL.  Thomas and Sarah were of Castlereagh St, Sydney. He a carter.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCT-4BH  marriage, look at the status

ADD  so you are looking at Sydney, September 1833 and earlier for a Mrs Sarah SMITH.   :) but as to when and where she was married to Mr Smith ? 

JM
 

I wonder who married Thomas WEAVERS, per the Shipley ... ie who was that lass, Sarah SMITH ... :)

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Saturday 22 December 18 09:01 GMT (UK)
Thanks so much, I am not a wiz kid re Roots chat, should I move it to the Aussie Board? if so can some please advise how to
Once again thanking you got your wonderful help
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Saturday 22 December 18 23:19 GMT (UK)
Thomas WEAVER/S per the Shipley (2) arriving 18 Nov 1818 to Sydney.
On the 1822 General Muster, he was Assigned to a William BRADBURY, Liverpool
10 Feb 1825 there’s a Col Sec letter showing Thomas WEAVERS per the Shipley had been in employment of William BRADBURY of Campbelltown from January 1821.
On the 1825 General Muster, he was Free by Servitude and working for a William SMITH at Parramatta.
I have previously typed up the 1828 sighting of Thomas WEAVERS per the Shipley and Sarah Smith and her children, including Mary Ann and William, but NO sighting of Sarah SMITH's husband.  :)

Re the 1841 death of a Sarah SMITH at the hospital, Parramatta.  The INDEX has Sarah SMITH, per the Eolus, death 20 March 1841.  Reel 690, page 193.    The INDEX does not give any indication of IF that Sarah arrived as Sarah SMITH or she became SMITH after arrival.    I have found the digitised image, and that image does NOT give any further info either, - not even her Convict Indent number, no age, no date of conviction, NOTHING further.  Ship of arrival clearly recorded as Eolus. 

There’s also several Thomas WEAVER/S chaps… but I can see that the Sarah WEAVERS, widow of Thomas, was twice married, and had children by both husbands…
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/62519113  Bathurst Free Press 28 Feb 1852.
Cattle Stealing.
Henry Alexander was charged with having on the 6th December, at Mount Macquarie, stolen
one cow, of the value of 40s., the property of Mr. Thomas Smith, commonly called Thomas Weavers. The prisoner pleaded not guilty and was defended by Mr. Holroyd. William Smith, or Weavers deposed, that he missed the cow on the 6th December last, that he is the step-son of Thomas Weavers, and usually goes by the name of his step-father, 

 :)


https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/convicts/indexes


JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Sunday 23 December 18 06:33 GMT (UK)
I have been searching Sarah Smith and William Sherries
It appears he was a convict transported on the Admiral Gambier 1808
At his marriage in 1815, it is noted he is free, he would have served his 7 year sentence
There is a death notice for a William Sherris in 1823, I wonder if it is the same person?
Could Sarah Smith on the Broxbornebury remarried under the name Smith?
I am still wondering if this Sarah from Hertfordshire, arrival on the Brox. is the one that married Thomas Weavers, as all the info. from the death cert matches?
I can't find another Sarah that matches? 
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Sunday 23 December 18 08:17 GMT (UK)
I have been searching Sarah Smith and William Sherries
It appears he was a convict transported on the Admiral Gambier 1808
At his marriage in 1815, it is noted he is free, he would have served his 7 year sentence
There is a death notice for a William Sherris in 1823, I wonder if it is the same person?
Could Sarah Smith on the Broxbornebury remarried under the name Smith?
I am still wondering if this Sarah from Hertfordshire, arrival on the Brox. is the one that married Thomas Weavers, as all the info. from the death cert matches?
I can't find another Sarah that matches?

Hi

I don’t see that it is sensible to confirm that the mother of your Mary Ann Smith who married in 1830 to Charles LEWIS was a convict who arrived in NSW per the Broxbornebury  in 1815, if you are basing her identification on the information Mary Ann’s brother gave in 1876 to the funeral director when organising his mum’s funeral.   

I think it is very important to remember that the family history information given on a New South Wales death certificate is NOT first hand information, and if given by a family member, was given to a funeral director while organising the funeral. 

From the link I provided earlier,  I read that Sarah WEAVERS’ d.c. was reference #4820/1876, and that the informant was James SMITH, her son.

I think he was likely to have not had much formal education for he signed with his mark.   So he was relying on memory, at a time of grief, and when also looking after his grieving siblings, their partners, and all of Sarah’s grandchildren, great grandchildren, neighbours and friends, organising a funeral, in an era before the telephone, motorcar, macadamised roads, and the like.   James resided at Reedy Creek, Blayney.   Thomas George WEAVERS, his half-brother, was likely the head of his own household at Brilliant St, Bathurst, which is where Sarah died.  I confirm that Thomas G WEAVERS is listed at that address on the Electoral Roll for 1870. 


So I have quickly considered some of the available information gleaned from the d.c. available at the website I posted earlier; here are some of the details posted re that 1876 d.c:
Text: 1876/004820
Date of death: 21 Jul 1876 at Brilliant Street Bathurst
Sarah Weavers, a widow age 92
Cause of death: old age
Parents: unknown
Informant: James Smith (who made his X mark) a farmer and grazier of Reedy Creek Blayney
Buried: 24 Jul 1876 Bathurst, Church of England
Born Herefordshire England, 61 years in NSW
Married (1) Prospect NSW to John Smith, children William age about 56, Mary age about 54, Susan age about 52, James age about 51, 10 deceased, sexes unknown
Married (2) Sydney NSW to Thomas Weavers at age 33, children Thomas 42, 2 males deceased


James knew that Sarah had been twice married. 

The d.c. does not give her age at first marriage, nor her birth surname, (although the d.c. allows for that info to be provided)…

** but it does have John SMITH as her first husband, and that they were married at Prospect NSW and names the surviving children as William (abt 56), Mary (abt 54) Susan (abt 52), James (abt 51) and 10 had not survived.
** and it does have Thomas WEAVERS as her second husband, and that they married when she was aged 33, and there was one surviving child, Thomas, aged 42 – 2 males had not survived.

James knew information about his siblings, including his half brother, Thomas.
1876 less 42 years = Thomas born about 1834.   Yes, baptism confirms this
1876 - 92 years = Sarah born 1784 … so she was aged about 50 when Thomas was born…
1876 - 51 = James born abt 1825
1876 – 52 = Susan born abt 1824
1876 – 54 = Mary born abt 1822
1876 – 56 = William born abt 1820 

So, to me, the question becomes - how accurate is the information that James knew ….
 
– was his father’s name John?   I had understood that James’ father was William SMITH …
-   Your Mary Anne SMITH, was she born about 1822 – she married in 1830,  and in that era, the minimum age for marriage was 12 for females and 14 for males. 

I am concerned that you are relying on ‘Herefordshire’ and ’61 years’ in NSW ahead of the information that can be found in the NSW Archives and which has been made available via NSW State Archives in partnership with various commercial websites.    I am concerned that you are not validating the other information available about the lass on the Broxbornebury. 

If Mr Sherris' died (1823 or otherwise),  and his widow remarried, she would marry under his surname.   The link I gave you for the 1833 marriage to Thomas WEAVERS clearly shows you that the bride was named as Sarah SMITH, and the transcriber/indexer has noted 'MARRIED' as in that's Sarah's married surname, not her birth surname.   

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Sunday 23 December 18 09:56 GMT (UK)
My Mary Ann Smith was born in 1815 to a William Smith and a Sarah. possibly Sarah Lake, Sarah's
Father John Lake born abt 1760 in Devon, mother Susannah Eales born abt 1760 Buckfastleigh, Devon.

Mary Ann married Charles Lewis in 1830,  Charlotte, her sister, was a witness along with Thomas Galliott.
The following year 1831 Charlotte married Thomas Galliott and Charles Lewis was a witness along with Thomas's mother, I have no issue with these records.

This is where I am confused, because this Sarah Lake was born Devon, she was convicted at Devon Quarter Sessions
She was abt 16y/o and was transported on the Aeolus arrival 26th Jan, 1809, none of this seems to marry up with the death cert. of Sarah Weavers?

I am trying to confirm who married this Thomas Weavers? (is he my ancestor)

There is an obituary for Sarah Weavers death Bathurst 1876, once again does not marry up to Sarah Lake

copyright image removed
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: Dundee on Sunday 23 December 18 10:46 GMT (UK)
There is an obituary for Sarah Weavers death Bathurst 1876, once again does not marry up to Sarah Lake

WEAVERS - July 21, at her residence, Stewart-street, Bathurst, Mrs. Weavers, relict of the late J. Weavers, Esq., dearly beloved mother of the late Mrs. W. Mulhall, sen., of Harris-street, Pyrmont, leaving three sons and one surviving daughter, Mrs. George Mulhall sen., Broken Bay Lighthouse, and eighty grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and great great-grand-children, in her 91st year ; seventy-one years in the colony, beloved by all that was near and dear to her and all that knew her.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13378372

This Sarah's daughter Mary Ann SMITH married George MULHALL in 1835 so it appears that she is not the mother of your Mary Ann.

Debra  :D
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: Dundee on Sunday 23 December 18 11:35 GMT (UK)
Can you give us some information about your Mary Ann SMITH?  Where and when did she die, and how do you know her parents were William SMITH and Sarah LAKE?

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: Dundee on Sunday 23 December 18 12:45 GMT (UK)
.... dearly beloved mother of the late Mrs. W. Mulhall, sen., of Harris-street, Pyrmont

MULHALL - November 20, at her residence, Harris-street, Pyrmont, Elizabeth, the beloved wife of Captain Mulhall, after eighteen months painful suffering, which she bore without a murmur, leaving two daughters, one son, and seven grandchildren to mourn the loss of a loving mother and grandmother ; the youngest daughter of Mrs. Weavers, of Bathurst, and only sister of Mrs. George Mulhall, sen., in her 58th year, loved by all near and dear to her. She calmly fell asleep in Jesus.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13336881

Debra  :D

Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: Dundee on Sunday 23 December 18 13:42 GMT (UK)
The baptism of Charles and Mary Ann's son Joseph LEWIS in 1832 has been missed from the NSW online indexes.  You can contact them and ask for it to be added.  I believe the number would be 455/1832 V1832455 16

The email address is here under 'Family History Enquiries'

https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/contact-us/contact-us-bdm.aspx#Emailus

Debra  :D
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Sunday 23 December 18 22:38 GMT (UK)
I am on e reader, sorry for bulk quotes and my thoughts in the middle of them ... but basically who is the last confirmed ancestor,  so we can help you to work through the dilemma ....

ADD,  modifying, an hour or so after originally posting ... as I am on puter now.


JM


Well  found Debra.

Sasarina,  please read back through the thread and consider ...
Are you sure  that Charles LEWIS is your ancestor.... if so then his wife, Mary Ann,  does  not seem to be a daughter of the Sarah WEAVERS who died in Bathurst 1876. 

Debra has asked
Can you give us some information about your Mary Ann SMITH?  Where and when did she die, and how do you know her parents were William SMITH and Sarah LAKE?

Debra  :)

We can help once we have some answers to those questions 

 ;)
JM.


My Mary Ann Smith was born in 1815 to a William Smith and a Sarah. possibly Sarah Lake, Sarah's
Father John Lake born abt 1760 in Devon, mother Susannah Eales born abt 1760 Buckfastleigh, Devon.

Mary Ann married Charles Lewis in 1830,  Charlotte, her sister, was a witness along with Thomas Galliott.
The following year 1831 Charlotte married Thomas Galliott and Charles Lewis was a witness along with Thomas's mother, I have no issue with these records.

This is where I am confused, because this Sarah Lake was born Devon, she was convicted at Devon Quarter Sessions
She was abt 16y/o and was transported on the Aeolus arrival 26th Jan, 1809, none of this seems to marry up with the death cert. of Sarah Weavers?

I am trying to confirm who married this Thomas Weavers? (is he my ancestor)

There is an obituary for Sarah Weavers death Bathurst 1876, once again does not marry up to Sarah Lake

copyright image removed
[/quote

Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Monday 24 December 18 00:12 GMT (UK)
St James C of E, Sydney NSW register
(entry number should be 598)
Joseph, son of Charles and Mary Ann LEWIS, baker of Pitt Street, Sydney was born 29 July 1832 and baptised by Rev Richard HILL, 19 August 1832.

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Monday 24 December 18 04:05 GMT (UK)
still not joining the dots to Sarah WEAVERS at Bathurst....  :(

MARRIAGE, St James C of E, by Rev Richard HILL, 1 January 1830
John SMITH, aged 19, bachelor, born in the Colony, abode Sydney, a farmer, signed X and Sarah WATSON, aged 26, spinster, per Princess Royal of 1827, abode Sydney, signed X
Married by Banns with consent of Governor and Guardian.
Witnesses: Thomas GALLIOTT of Castlereagh St, (he signed), and Charlotte SMITH of Pitt St, (signed X)

MARRIAGE, St James C of E, by Rev Richard HILL, 22 June 1831
Thomas GALLIOTT, aged 20, bachelor, came free per Friendship 1818, abode of this parish, Cabinetmaker, signed and Charlotte SMITH, aged 19, Spinster, abode of this parish, signed x
married with Consent of their PARENTS. 
Witnesses: Charles LEWIS of Castlereagh St, signed and Sarah GALLIOTT of Castlereagh St, signed X


RE-INTERMENTS from Devonshire Street Cemetery in 1901:
The following were transferred to Bunnerong, Section 5N, Plot 105,
Emma GALLIOTT died 12th December 1837 aged 11 months.
Emma READ, cousin of the above, died 24th November 1837 aged I year & 9 mths
Joseph, son of Thomas & Charlotte GALLIOTT, died 24th March 1841 aged 6 years.
also Charlotte, wife of Thomas GALLIOTT, died 5th April 1841 aged 27 years
Mary Ann BAXTER, died 11th April 1841 aged 11 years.
Mrs Sarah GALLIOTT, wife of Mr William GALLIOTT, died 22nd April 1855 aged 71 years.

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Monday 24 December 18 05:37 GMT (UK)
Firstly I would like to thank everyone and wish you a Merry Christmas.

I don't want to make this too long a story,  I have 2 x A4 files full of paperwork on my Lewis/Smith ancestors, I have been working on this for abt 5 years, so I will try to keep to the basics.

Susannah Lewis was my grandmother, she was born 1864, Bathurst,  the daughter of Joseph Lewis and Jane Lewis, nee Noble, Joseph Lewis was born to Charles Lewis and Mary Ann Smith in 1832, I have the transcriptions for Joseph's birth.  Jane Noble immigrated from Ireland in 1852 on the David Mciver, also have the paperwork for this, I have not been able to trace her parents in Ireland, they were both deceased when she immigrated.

Some of the research has been based on previous research by a direct ancestor of the Smith and also a direct ancestor of the Lewis clan. I have a book that was written about 30 years ago on the Lewis family from Fitzgerald's Valley.  There is a plaque erected at Fitzgerald's Valley dedicated to the Lewis Family,  I think because of the commonality of the names there has been plenty of errors.  The book begins with Charles Lewis the convict.  I have not been able to trace Mary Ann due to the number of them it would take me years. I do have a lot of certs. but because they are early church records unfortunately they are lacking the vital information.

Charles Lewis was a convict transported on the Neptune, he was a baker. There is confusion on which Neptune he arrived 1818 or 1820 the English records 1820 the Australian 1818?  I have heaps of records on this including the surgeons jnl. and all the other Charles Lewis convicts which I have eliminated.
Many researchers have Sarah Lake as the spouse of Thomas Weavers, but as I explained the Death Cert. and Obt. of Sarah Weavers does not marry up with Sarah Lake, I have a copy of the death cert and the Obt for Sarah Weavers.  There does seem to be some connection with the Weavers and Smith family? but I have not been able to sort it out?
The 1828 census prospect, list all Sarah Lake,( Aeolus) and William Smiths children also Thomas Weavers,  William was in care at this time he died in 1829.
Please let me know if you need more info as I have heaps on the computer.
Oh you just beat me to it, Sorry I do have all the info re the Galliotts,  Don't know about John Smith? are we adding another Sarah? looks interesting.
 
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Monday 24 December 18 06:18 GMT (UK)
Christmas Greetings ...  here's another Sarah SMITH, with a connection to a Thomas WEAVERS who was of Sydney...  remember there's a number of chaps by that name in NSW in that era.   Prospect was Central Cumberland, and not Sydney Town...  :)


https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/230389416  NSW Government Gazette  5 December 1832, Issue 40, page 444
RETURN OF FEMALE CONVICTS ASSIGNED AND TRANSFERRED IN SEPTEMBER, 1832.

1570. Smith Sarah, Princess Charlotte, house servant, to Thomas Weavers, Sydney.

JM   
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Monday 24 December 18 06:35 GMT (UK)
Golly, I don't know how you find this info,  I thought I was a pretty good sleuth.
I think maybe we are looking for another Thomas Weavers, and all the indicators pointed to the one at Bathurst because all the Lewis clan lived there, but maybe they moved there later on.
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: wivenhoe on Monday 24 December 18 08:01 GMT (UK)
Is this your LEWIS family?

And you are researching the origins of Joseph and Jane?

3382/1854 V18543382 40   LEWIS  Mary A      parents -  / Jane   
4593/1857 LEWIS  Charlotte                           parents Joseph / Jane   @ Bathurst
4794/1862 LEWIS  William T J                        parents Joseph / Jane   @ Bathurst
5163/1863 LEWIS  James                               parents Joseph / Jane   @ Bathurst
5410/1865 LEWIS  Susannah                          parents Joseph / Jane   @ Bathurst
5634/1866 LEWIS  John H                              parents Joseph / Jane   @ Bathurst
6030/1868 LEWIS  Jane                                 parents Joseph / Jane   @ Bathurst
6269/1870 LEWIS  Hannah                             parents Joseph / Jane    @ Bathurst
6270/1870 LEWIS  Ellen                                 parents Joseph / Jane    @ Bathurst
7208/1873 LEWIS  Eleanor Helmore                parents Joseph / Jane   @ Bathurst
7504/1876 LEWIS  George Arthur                   parents Joseph / Janes  @ Bathurst

Your direct ancestor is Susannah , b. 1865?

You seem to have gathered a lot of information about this family. It is difficult for a forum to use your information without knowing how it was sourced.

What certificates do you have for BDM events in the lives of the people named.
 
I mean certificates that you have in front of you, not reference to information that other researchers have passed on to you.
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Monday 24 December 18 08:54 GMT (UK)
Marriage St James C of E, Sydney by Rev Richard HILL, after banns called  2 May, 1830, 9 May,1830, 16 May, 1830. 
Charles LEWIS, bachelor, per Neptune, Free, aged 26, of Sydney, a baker and Mary Ann SMITH, spinster, 16, of Sydney, born in the colony, Mary Ann SMITH’s mother gave consent.  Charles signed, Mary Ann made her mark.
Witnesses: Thomas GALLIOT of Castlereagh St, signed and Charlotte SMITH of Castlereagh St made her mark.
NOTE, when Charlotte SMITH married Thomas GALLIOTT, I seem to recall that both her PARENTS (plural) gave consent.   As our OP has given us that William SMITH died 1829 … it seems to me that there’s possibly several SMITH families in Sydney and in Prospect and elsewhere in NSW in the 1820s and into the 1830s with mum as Sarah and with her children named John, Charlotte, Mary Ann and others.

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Wednesday 26 December 18 01:05 GMT (UK)
Re Sarah LAKE

John, son of William SMITH and Sarah LAKE, born January 1811, baptised April 1811 St Johns C of E, Parramatta.

Check for quick decipher as per attached, if I have read year and mum's name ... then cannot be anyone off the 1814 Broxbournebury. 

Not for profit database, an ongoing project, Biographical Database of Australia ... index searches no charge,  subscription fee $30 p.a.  https://www.bda-online.org.au/about-us/about-bda/ 
- search for Sarah SMITH and look at the one who was a regular as a witness for marriages conducted by Rev Richard HILL, at St James C of E (that's right in Sydney CBD, opp the Barracks, adjacent Hyde Park) :D  or her likely daughters Charlotte, Elizabeth, Mary SMITH  :)  I am wondering if that would be the SMITH family known to and marrying into GALLIOTT and LEWIS. - So perhaps setting aside the PROSPECT family which may or may not be Sarah LAKE ...   What do you think? It means you may need to start over searching for your Mary Ann SMITH/Mrs Charles LEWIS ...

City of Sydney Assessment Books
https://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/house-and-building-histories/assessment-books

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Wednesday 26 December 18 02:55 GMT (UK)
  JM,
I don't know what to think re my Smith/Lewis ancestors?  I know it puts my head in a spin, I feel like I am losing the plot.

A lot of people have  Sarah Lake as married to Thomas Weavers?  after William Smith died. I think this is incorrect,  what I think according to the obt and the death cert of Sarah Weavers, states that Sarah was from Hertfordshire, and dates match, that's why I can't get it out of head that this Sarah Weavers is from the Broxbornebury.  I know you found William Sherries married a Sarah from the Brox. I wonder if we are dealing with more than one Thomas Weavers?

I think that Sarah Lake and William Smith are the parents of the Mary Ann Smith who married Charles Lewis, unfortunately the birth certs. for Mary A, Charlotte, James, and the rest of the tribe only state parents as William and Sarah, but the dates seem to fit. Charlotte, sister to Mary A married Thomas Galliott and Charles Lewis and Charlotte's mother were witness. Thomas Galliott and Charlotte were witness to Charles and Mary A's marriage only her mother gave permission.


Wivenhoe
Yes that is my Lewis Family, and Susannah is my grandmother. I do not have any issues with Jane Lewis (nee Noble) and Joseph Lewis descendants, only the ancestors.

I have given up on finding Jane Noble's parents, as explained, she immigrated from Dublin in 1851 on the David McIvor, both parents John and Martha already deceased.  I have read some articles that she was born in Enniskillen?  I have her marriage and death cert no parents mentioned.
I have a death cert  for a Charles Lewis, Baker, but has no info. regarding parents.

So really the only details I have are from the descendants of the Lewis clan of Fitzgerald's Valley, I feel someone must have known something about the ancestors, because you wouldn't just pick out one Charles Lewis from the Neptune from the many Charles Lewis convicts as being Joseph Lewis father?  but as far as having any direct evidence I am at a loss. 







Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Wednesday 26 December 18 04:08 GMT (UK)
There is an obituary for Sarah Weavers death Bathurst 1876, once again does not marry up to Sarah Lake

WEAVERS - July 21, at her residence, Stewart-street, Bathurst, Mrs. Weavers, relict of the late J. Weavers, Esq., dearly beloved mother of the late Mrs. W. Mulhall, sen., of Harris-street, Pyrmont, leaving three sons and one surviving daughter, Mrs. George Mulhall sen., Broken Bay Lighthouse, and eighty grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and great great-grand-children, in her 91st year ; seventy-one years in the colony, beloved by all that was near and dear to her and all that knew her.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13378372

This Sarah's daughter Mary Ann SMITH married George MULHALL in 1835 so it appears that she is not the mother of your Mary Ann.

Debra  :D

Can you give us some information about your Mary Ann SMITH?  Where and when did she die, and how do you know her parents were William SMITH and Sarah LAKE?

Debra  :)

Do you have the death certificate for your Charles LEWIS, if so who was the informant, and when/where is he buried?    What details did the informant give about him, his origins/parents, his marriage, his children?

Do you have the death certificate for your Mary Ann LEWIS, , if so who was the informant, and when/where is she buried?    What details did the informant give about her, her origins/parents, her marriage, her children?

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Wednesday 26 December 18 05:09 GMT (UK)
New South Wales Electoral Roll 1870 BATHURST
David LEWIS, George Street, qualified to enrol by residence
Joseph LEWIS, William Street, qualified to enrol by leasehold
Joseph LEWIS, Howick Street, qualified to enrol by household
Thomas G WEAVERS, of Fitzgerald Swamp, qualified to enrol by freehold at Brilliant Street

NSW ER 1878 BATHURST
William LEWIS, residence, Piper St
Peter J LEWIS, residence, Howick St

JM

Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Wednesday 26 December 18 05:45 GMT (UK)
I  have a transcription for Mary A Smith, born 1815,  Parramatta, parents William Smith and Sarah, V 1815936 148, baptism record states same parents,  registered Samuel Marsden. Unfortunately I have not been able to trace Mary Ann from her marriage, there are so many Mary A Lewis.

The same can be said for Charles Lewis, absolutely no info. much on his death cert., no parents, no marriage details, the informant was the coroner at the time. the ref is 1863/458.
This death of a Charles Lewis, the baker, died 17/03/1863 on board the Maid of the Lake Schooner, age 66, opens up a whole new world of inconsistencies. The death was registered on the 31/03/1863.
There is a coroner's report at the Observer Hotel, re his death, he was being taken to hospital in Sydney by his nephew, who was captain of the Schooner, Thomas Boyd, from Newcastle, he died while crossing Lake Macquarie. The death cert states buried at Camperdown Cemetery 20/03/1863.
I have the burial butt which adds to the confusion, the particulars are, he was a Sailor, residence Circular Quay, age 50.
I have done some research on the Observer Hotel, there was a sailors home over the road from the Observer.  I can understand the confusion thinking he was a sailor as he died on the schooner, but I cannot understand the 16 years age difference.

The Boyd's were very well known in Swansea, there is a connection with a Lewis family.
Elizabeth Lewis from London, she was transported to NSW  (possible sister of Charles Lewis) married a George Jenks in England, then a William Boyd in 1829 NSW, William Boyd was Thomas's father.

I hope this makes sense to you?  the trouble is I think all this info is circumstantial, and I have spent years on my very elusive ancestors.
 


Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Wednesday 26 December 18 06:00 GMT (UK)
There were two Joseph Lewis that I know about in Bathurst.
My Joseph Lewis that married Jane Noble,  and a Joseph Lewis that married a Sarah Hockey she committed  suicide by taking poison.  Joseph her spouse died 1872, he was an Innkeeper.

There are still some of the Lewis clan in the Bathurst area.
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Wednesday 26 December 18 06:02 GMT (UK)
Re that 1815 birth for Mary A SMITH ...  what date for birth and what date for baptism?  As far as I am aware, all the St Johns C of E baptisms for 1815 are readily available online via Ancestry. 

I am sure that the Mary Ann who married Charles LEWIS was sister to Charlotte, and that their mum was Sarah, BUT I am not at all convinced that Mary Ann, and Charlotte were of that SMITH family at Prospect in  1828. 

I think both Mary Ann and Charlotte were with their mum in Sydney Town  :)  .... The Sarah Smith on the 1828 Census at Prospect signed that record with her X mark.   The Sarah Smith attending St James C of E when Rev William Cowper and then when Richard Hill were conducting weddings there, signed the register with her signature...  and seems to have been of Castlereagh Street  :)

ADD ... to clarify  :-[  :-[  she signed the register with her signature, as one of the regular WITNESSES to quite a number of marriages at St James...   

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Wednesday 26 December 18 06:10 GMT (UK)
Mary Ann born Mar/1815,  Bapt  14/05/1815
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: wivenhoe on Wednesday 26 December 18 06:17 GMT (UK)

NSM BDM marriage
25/1853 V185325 81     LEWIS   Joseph   m.    NOBLE Jane          @    JG
Who are the witnesses on this record. Do Joseph and Jane sign their names?

Is this the death of your Joseph LEWIS -
7235/1889 LEWIS  Joseph   parents Charles / -    died West Macquarie
Can you please list all the information on this certificate....everything please including the name of informant.

From the death certificate for Jane LEWIS nee NOBLE -
Can you please list all the information on this certificate....everything please including the name of informant.
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Wednesday 26 December 18 06:32 GMT (UK)
Wivenhoe,
I will get in touch later have to go.
But a quick answer, Jane and Joseph were both literate.
Yes the Joseph died 1889 is my Joseph
There is a lot of info re Janes death c.
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Wednesday 26 December 18 06:50 GMT (UK)
Re the Baptism for Mary Ann SMITH at St Johns C of E 1815...
Mary Ann born Mar/1815,  Bapt  14/05/1815

Rev Samuel MARSDEN's register can be quite helpful  :)  look at the entry immediately before and the one immediately after the one for Mary Ann's baptism, and at the entire page as one image.

So there's Elizabeth, daughter of Stephen Parker and Harriet his wife, and in the margin he has also written 7 Hills....   

Then there's Mary Ann Daugher of William Smith and Sarah his Wife, was born March 1815 and Christened May 14, 1815, Registered Same day by me Samuel Marsden ... (nothing in margin)

Then there's Isaac, son of William Barran and Ann Huby was born 1 Nov 1814 and Christened May 14, 1815 .....

Notice
* that Samuel Marsden wrote his entries up on the same day he conducted those ceremonies... so are likely to be reliable info.
* that Samuel Marsden could not establish that Isaac's mum and dad were formally married to each other
* notice that Samuel Marsden was convinced that Elizabeth's mum and dad were formally married to each other
* notice that Samuel Marsden was convinced that Mary Ann's mum and dad were formally married to each other.
* notice that Samuel Marsden recorded 7 Hills .... as in Seven Hills district ... but did NOT record a locality for most on that page ... so likely they were locals to St Johns C of E...
* notice further down the page is a baptism and a margin note 'Parramatta'
* remember that Samuel Marsden was one of the NSW Chaplains, and therefore was required to receive transmitted records of baptisms, marriages, burials conducted by other clergy (and not just by C of E clergy either) and record them in his registers as per one of the General Orders issued by the then NSW governor, Lachlan Macquarie...  So Samuel Marsden would have reliable records showing marriages conducted by a) himself  b) other C of E clergy  c) other clergy.   
* Samuel Marsden was one of the clergy who declined to marry couples if they had a prior marriage ... despite Lachlan Macquarie being very concerned about cohabitation...
So, the lass born March 1815, baptised  14 May 1815 was perhaps local to St Johns C of E, and her parents were a married couple, but as to her mum's nee name ...  sorry, it may not be noted anywhere.   She may have been baptised 7 Hills, or perhaps not...

Trove :
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/627934 Sydney Gaz 24 Feb 1810
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/628068 Sydney Gaz 15 Sept 1810
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/628150 Sydney Gaz 22 Dec 1810

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Wednesday 26 December 18 06:59 GMT (UK)
I think Wivenhoe is on the right tack,  sort out Joseph's generation, before moving back to his parents' generation, and don't even venture to Mary Ann SMITH's parents' generation until more has been found re Joseph's parents...

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: Dundee on Wednesday 26 December 18 08:42 GMT (UK)
......I feel someone must have known something about the ancestors, because you wouldn't just pick out one Charles Lewis from the Neptune from the many Charles Lewis convicts as being Joseph Lewis father? 

The marriage tells you that he arrived on the Neptune and that he was a baker.

Marriage St James C of E, Sydney by Rev Richard HILL, after banns called  2 May, 1830, 9 May,1830, 16 May, 1830. 
Charles LEWIS, bachelor, per Neptune, Free, aged 26, of Sydney, a baker and Mary Ann SMITH, spinster, 16, of Sydney, born in the colony.....

As explained on your thread about Charles LEWIS there was only one who arrived on the Neptune in any year:


Charles Lewis, trial date 26th May 1819, stole a great coat, transported on Neptune I (2), arrived 16 July 1820. Free certificate (with matching trial date) says native place Chelmsford, baker, blind in right eye......

I can't see a Charles Lewis on the 1818 Neptune voyage but I can see variation in the muster and census records for the arrival years stated for both of the convicts above, so I believe that errors were made that led to confusion.

You cannot expect the records to be completely accurate with dates as the establishment often had as much trouble as we do with keeping track of convicts and the many voyages of the same convict ships.

If 1820 is correct it would make all the research done by the Lewis family as incorrect? as they have erected a plaque in Fitzgeralds valley which is near Bathurst as him arriving on the 1818 voyage.

If they had checked they would have found that there was no Charles LEWIS on the 1818 voyage, and as he was tried in 1819 he cannot have arrived earlier.

Debra  :D
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Wednesday 26 December 18 09:25 GMT (UK)
I agree with you I was pretty sure he arrived on the 1820 Neptune.

I have heaps of info on Charles Lewis the baker arrived on the Neptune 1820, because I wanted to double check re the mix up with the English and Australian records.

He was born in Stepney, London abt 1798, and lived about 5 mins away from the scene of the crime, which makes sense.

He was transferred to the prison hulk the Justitia at Woolwich.

Then the prisoners were picked up by the Neptune.

I have a copy of the surgeons journal which describes the condition of Charles Lewis eyes throughout the journey.  His cornea in the right eye ruptured which explains why he was blind in the right eye, which married up with his TOL.  the only thing I did not understand was the native place listed as Chelmsford?

Add I also have the goalers reports from Newgate
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: Dundee on Wednesday 26 December 18 09:39 GMT (UK)
Charles would have given the information about his birthplace, so he believed he was born in Chelmsford (Essex).

Debra  :D
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Wednesday 26 December 18 09:39 GMT (UK)
What's odd about Chelmsford?

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Wednesday 26 December 18 23:29 GMT (UK)
Re William and Sarah SMITH and Mary Ann SMITH’s baptism 14 May 1815.

SPECULATIVE,
but the following casts doubt over IF that baby grew up and was the lass who married Charles LEWIS in Sydney …

A Marriage:
William SMITH, bachelor, of Sydney, a Cook and Sarah GEORGE, Spinster of Sydney, married 28 August 1810, by Banns, Witnesses  Thomas REYNOLDS (signed) and Mary NUTTLE, signed x mark. Marriage registered St Philips C of E, Sydney by William COWPER. 

So, there’s another William and Sarah SMITH … Is that Mary Ann SMITH’s parents - a definite possibility …. If so, perhaps the following is significant…

I have not looked further than just from my armchair this morning, but

Briefly, that Sarah GEORGE was transported 1809 per Indispensible to NSW.
She married in NSW in 1810, had children in NSW and then in Tasmania.   
She died 28 October 1826, in Tasmania. 

* So, I have read (but not undertaken any investigation), that Two of the children of William SMITH and his wife, Sarah GEORGE were born NSW and the others in Tasmania. 
* I have read, and I have checked and YES I agree that William SMITH and his wife, Sarah GEORGE are findable in Sydney NSW in the November 1814 Muster.  … off stores. 

*** I have not proceeded further,  I am NSW centric, and not VDL centric...    But I had been reading through a database within the BDA database… here is a pdf about that secondary database:

http://www.bda-online.org.au/files/TA1_Database.pdf - please read this through as it explains the database as a secondary ongoing source rather than as a primary source. 

So there’s this burial in Hobart…  https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD35-1-1p9j2k  Mary Anne SMITH.  3 Feb 1839
https://linctas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/names/
and
here's RChat's Tasmania Resources Board with plenty of live links
 https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369953.0

I can find other married women in Sydney in the 1800-1815 years who were recorded as Sarah, wife of XYZ SMITH chaps ... but it is all very speculative, and I continue to urge the effort needs to concentrate of Joseph LEWIS and then his parents before going back further on his mum's parents...
 :)
 
JM  PS, sorry but I have tried and have not yet 'mastered' the 'bullet list' option offering at RChat  :-[  :-[  :-[
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Thursday 27 December 18 02:06 GMT (UK)
I cannot thank you guys enough.  I have do some really elusive ancestors.

I have no issues with Jane Noble and Joseph Lewis of Fitzgerald's Valley and their descendants.
There is much hard evidence, re headstone at St Stephens Church at the Valley and marriages of the children, obt's for both Jane and Joseph.

The marriage transcription of Jane and Joseph does not offer much.
Presbyterian Marriages 1853-1854
25/05/1853
Sydney
Married by special licence
Joseph Lewis, bachelor, member of the Presbyterian Church of Scotland
Usual residence,  Sydney
No details for Jane
The witnesses were John and Jane Yarker.

As previously posted Jane arrived as an assisted immigrant from Ireland on the David McIvor in 1852
She was 20 y/o,  CoE,  domestic servant,  could read and write, both parents deceased John and Martha ( I have given up on finding them)
Jane Yarker was the wife of a convict, she travelled with Jane Noble on the David McIvor, so there are no issues with this.

Also I think the most likely parents for Joseph Lewis are Charles Lewis, the Baker and a Mary A Smith b.1815 , who had an illiterate sister Charlotte who married Thomas Galliott, seems the Smiths were illiterate?

That possible Mary A is very interesting, will check what siblings she had?
Nobody has been able to find any trace of Mary A. after her marriage.




Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Saturday 29 December 18 05:12 GMT (UK)
Hello,
I have been slowly browsing all the info you wonderful people have sent me.

and I think JM you may be on to something?  but like you mentioned the dots don't join up?

My only problem with this scenario is the dates?  If they married in 1830, they were pretty quick with the births of the children?

There is still something still not right??  but a lot of the names keep popping up, it also relates to the Bathurst area.

You mentioned a Sarah Watson married a John Smith in 1830, witnesses Thomas Galliott and Charlotte Smith.
I am not sure the convict ship you mentioned is correct?  I think maybe it is the Northampton?  arrived 1815 in NSW,
She was borne in Hertsfordshire, abt 1785,  did you know there was a town called Broxbourne in Hertsfordshire? Maybe the mix up with the transport ships?

This John Smith is the son of William Smith and Sarah Lake.
Also this John Smith was charged for harbouring a bushranger named John Weavers.
I did read about another bushranger name John Priestly (not sure it is spelt correct) there was also a connection to William Smith and Sarah Lake with this Bushranger.

James Smith, the son of John Smith and Sarah Watson married a Harriet Dover in 1850.

Harriet Dover's father was from Hertsfordshire.

What do you think?  My head is starting to spin again, so I could be getting myself tied up in knots.

Add, oh just spotted that the Sarah Watson arrived on the Northampton married a William Betts.



Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Saturday 29 December 18 07:14 GMT (UK)
Hello,
I have been slowly browsing all the info you wonderful people have sent me.

and I think JM you may be on to something?  but like you mentioned the dots don't join up?

My only problem with this scenario is the dates?  If they married in 1830, they were pretty quick with the births of the children?

There is still something still not right??  but a lot of the names keep popping up, it also relates to the Bathurst area.

You mentioned a Sarah Watson married a John Smith in 1830, witnesses Thomas Galliott and Charlotte Smith.
I am not sure the convict ship you mentioned is correct?  I think maybe it is the Northampton?  arrived 1815 in NSW,
She was borne in Hertsfordshire, abt 1785,  did you know there was a town called Broxbourne in Hertsfordshire? Maybe the mix up with the transport ships?

This John Smith is the son of William Smith and Sarah Lake.
Also this John Smith was charged for harbouring a bushranger named John Weavers.
I did read about another bushranger name John Priestly (not sure it is spelt correct) there was also a connection to William Smith and Sarah Lake with this Bushranger.

James Smith, the son of John Smith and Sarah Watson married a Harriet Dover in 1850.

Harriet Dover's father was from Hertsfordshire.

What do you think?  My head is starting to spin again, so I could be getting myself tied up in knots.

Add, oh just spotted that the Sarah Watson arrived on the Northampton married a William Betts.

Hi, 

I think you need to find where your Joseph LEWIS actually names his parents ... or at least gives details that positively point to that C of E baptism in Sydney,  afterall you have his marriage and its noting that he was a Presbyterian .... big decision for a young lad to change his denomination ... 
Do you have any NSW b.c. for  the  children to Joseph and Jane ... if so,  who registered the births and what info given re Josephs origins on those births ....  did Joseph sign,  what occupation,  ...

If this were my family I would validate Joseph info before venturing back a generation or more .and into other colonies etc..  particularly need to have a good grasp of any detail in those NSW  bdm events from 1851 to 1915 ... civil registration commenced 1856 and until WWI was basically collecting info via verbal lodgements... not everyone could read what the clerks wrote down,  and some could sign their name but were not good at reading scribble ....

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Saturday 29 December 18 11:28 GMT (UK)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/157959969 National Advocate 15 Aug 1912 ... 64 acres
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/157969434 National Advocate 22 Aug 1912 --- son bought it.

Here's the bushranger story, in the obit for Mrs Jane LEWIS
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/157959074 National Advocate 4 May 1912

Here's Joseph's obit
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/158408686 National Advocate 4 Dec 1889

For general information, here's some online info re John Peisley, a bushranger mentioned earlier in this thread.
https://aguidetoaustralianbushranging.wordpress.com/2018/10/17/john-peisley-an-overview/

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Sunday 30 December 18 06:28 GMT (UK)
I have done some sifting through my paperwork for the Lewis family.

Not a lot of info unfortunately,  I had spoken to the transcription agent for NSW, he advised it was because they were early church records.

I have a listing for all the baptisms for Fitzgerald's Valley from 1869,  all recorded for St.Stephens Church.

Susannah Lewis, my grandmother
Born 1864
Father,  Joseph, farmer
Mother  Jane, Ireland
Informant, Joseph, farmer, signed
Place, Fitzgerald's Valley
No denomination mentioned.

Joseph Lewis
Death 1889,  Fitzgerald's Valley
Father,  Charles Lewis
Mother,  Mary Smith
Informant,  W Goodfellow,  Friend
CoE  Fitzgerald's Valley.


Jane Lewis
Death,  1912,  Fitzgerald's Valley
No parents Listed
Informant,  T Lewis,  son.
CoE  Fitzgerald's Valley.

Note,  All the children are correctly listed on both  Josephs and Janes death cert.s

Birth,  Mary A Lewis,  1854,  South Creek, NSW
Father,  Joseph Lewis
Mother,  Jane Lewis
No denomination  mentioned.

In relation to Charles Lewis marriage to Mary A Smith.   I think that most the convicts would have been married CoE, because it had many benefits, re Samuel Marsden.  I have read some colonial secretary's letters regarding the convicts converting to Christianity.

I do not have any info on Joseph Lewis whereabouts after his birth in 1832 to his marriage to Jane in 1853, a gap of 20 years, this could have been an important part of his life, maybe times were tough? or he was enticed for whatever reason,  to become a member of the Presbyterian Church, as they were on the rise in the 1830's.

All their BMD's were in St. Stephens Anglican Church, Fitzgerald's Valley, maybe that was the only church there at the time?

I have no reason to doubt that this Joseph and Jane Lewis are my g grandparents, especially as previously noted that all Susannah's siblings were correctly listed on their death cert.s,  it's their ancestors that I am doubtful about.

I hope this makes some sense?

 
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Sunday 30 December 18 06:46 GMT (UK)
I am sure we are not doubting your ancestors are Joseph LEWIS and his wife Jane.  From the birth records of the NSW BDM who registered their daughter Susannah and what info did they give about Josephs origins  ... the civil registration included provision for a good deal of info about each parent ... and the informant too ... not the church record but the civil birth certificate ... official transcript will have it.  So hoping it will have the info about Joseph tbat will join dots to that 1832 baptism ... which at present is not yet joining up...  8)

Fingers crossed Joseph registered your Grandmother.

 
JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Sunday 30 December 18 06:55 GMT (UK)
 :)

So basically ,  I am hoping that Joseph registered the birth of at least one of his children and that he told the deputy NSWBDM registrar where he was born, etc

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Sunday 30 December 18 07:27 GMT (UK)
The info on Susannah Lewis was included in the previous post I sent, and was the full transcription.
Sorry I did miss some details, I will have another go. She was

Born  1864  Fitzgerald's Valley

States  that her father was Joseph Lewis, a farmer, his birthplace was Sydney NSW.  his age was 32. 
Her mother was Jane Noble from Ireland, age 29.

The informant was Joseph Lewis, farmer, Fitzgerald's Valley, Bathurst.
Present at birth Mrs Gould.

Registered 20/04/1865

I hope I have got it right this time?
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Sunday 30 December 18 07:45 GMT (UK)
The info on Susannah Lewis was included in the previous post I sent, and was the full transcription.
Sorry I did miss some details, I will have another go. She was

Born  1864  Fitzgerald's Valley

States  that her father was Joseph Lewis, a farmer, his birthplace was Sydney NSW.  his age was 32. 
Her mother was Jane Noble from Ireland, age 29.

The informant was Joseph Lewis, farmer, Fitzgerald's Valley, Bathurst.
Present at birth Mrs Gould.

Registered 20/04/1865

I hope I have got it right this time?

Right,   ;)  now we have dots joining up back to Sydney  NSW ...   :)

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Sunday 30 December 18 22:42 GMT (UK)
I  have a transcription for Mary A Smith, born 1815,  Parramatta, parents William Smith and Sarah, V 1815936 148, baptism record states same parents,  registered Samuel Marsden. Unfortunately I have not been able to trace Mary Ann from her marriage, there are so many Mary A Lewis.

The same can be said for Charles Lewis, absolutely no info. much on his death cert., no parents, no marriage details, the informant was the coroner at the time. the ref is 1863/458.
This death of a Charles Lewis, the baker, died 17/03/1863 on board the Maid of the Lake Schooner, age 66, opens up a whole new world of inconsistencies. The death was registered on the 31/03/1863.
There is a coroner's report at the Observer Hotel, re his death, he was being taken to hospital in Sydney by his nephew, who was captain of the Schooner, Thomas Boyd, from Newcastle, he died while crossing Lake Macquarie. The death cert states buried at Camperdown Cemetery 20/03/1863.
I have the burial butt which adds to the confusion, the particulars are, he was a Sailor, residence Circular Quay, age 50.
I have done some research on the Observer Hotel, there was a sailors home over the road from the Observer.  I can understand the confusion thinking he was a sailor as he died on the schooner, but I cannot understand the 16 years age difference.

The Boyd's were very well known in Swansea, there is a connection with a Lewis family.
Elizabeth Lewis from London, she was transported to NSW  (possible sister of Charles Lewis) married a George Jenks in England, then a William Boyd in 1829 NSW, William Boyd was Thomas's father.

I hope this makes sense to you?  the trouble is I think all this info is circumstantial, and I have spent years on my very elusive ancestors.
 

Hi,
How do you know that the Charles LEWIS, the baker, who died in March 1863 was the father of your Joseph LEWIS?   If this is your Charles LEWIS, then who was your Joseph’s cousin, the captain of that small schooner?  Here is a newspaper cutting showing Charles LEWIS resided at Lake Macquarie.    I live at Nords Wharf, and I am confident that the article is referring to the Swansea Bar,  still a difficult hazard, with strict regulations for everyone onboard small craft.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/111165421  Newcastle Chronicle 25 March 1863.
The Coroner held  an inquest at the Observer Tavern, George street, on .the body of a man named Charles Lewis, aged sixty-six years. Deceased resided near Lake Macquarie, and suffering from a rupture, his nephew, Captain of a small schooner called the Maid of the Lake,  determined to bring him to Sydney to get him into the Infirmary. On Tuesday last the schooner sailed for Sydney, and. While crossing the bar Lewis went down below, fell Io the floor  and died.  Upon the arrival of the schooner in Sydney the body was seen by Dr Hamilton.  That gentleman was of opinion from the appearances of the body, that serious apoplexy was the cause of death. Verdict— Died suddenly from: natural causes.

Here is a link to the Lake Macquarie family history group.  https://www.lmfhg.org.au/

Fingers crossed they will have info on the schooner, her captain (Thomas BOYD) , and also on the chap, Charles LEWIS who resided at Lake Maquarie ...

If the newspaper reporter in Sydney can record Circular Quay instead of Lake Macquarie, then perhaps his reporting pencil recorded 66 and he then mis-read his own handwriting and read it as 50 ..  I can see how the 5 and the 6 can be mis-read and I can see how the 6 and the 0 can too.   :) but I cannot fathom mis-reading Circular Quay for Lake Macquarie...  :)  one of the reporters got it wrong ....  and none seem to have mentioned that that Charles LEWIS had a son, Joseph, who had married and was a farmer in the Bathurst-Carcoar district at the time...

JM

ADD  armchair online searching this morning :
https://history.lakemac.com.au/page-local-history.aspx?pid=1085&vid=20&tmpt=narrative&narid=80
In 1853 Thomas Boyd brought John Taaffe and his family to Lake Macquarie Heads. Taaffe selected a portion of land on a hill near Galgabba Point at the southern end of Pelican Flat. Two years later in 1855 Boyd and family settled nearby.
It is very important to recognise that the population of NSW rapidly increased in the 1850s due to the gold rushes...  http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=660501.9 
NSW state library should have NSW electoral rolls for the 1860s  :)   that could be useful in checking various Charles LEWIS listings  https://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Monday 31 December 18 00:07 GMT (UK)
I have just found a submitted tree at Ancestry.  The tree owner has some interesting family details. 
They have Sarah LAKE,  Mary A SMITH, Thomas George WEAVERS,  William SMITH, Joseph LEWIS, Elizabeth SMITH …    They have confused the arrival of their Charles  LEWIS and they have him arriving May 1818 and residing in Middlesex, England in 1819 …. And they base this on ‘from a History of Fitzgerald Valley’ …  They have Charles with a half sister, Elizabeth, noted as dying Kent St Sydney 5 July 1853.   They have Charles wife, Mary A SMITH as dying Fitzgerald Valley in 1920  (NSW BDM 15473/1920)

Perhaps you should consider contacting them to see if you can share research and eliminate some of the confusions …  Please do remember that I have found that the William SMITH and his wife, Sarah LAKE, moved to Tasmania and had further children there.   

See also my reply #63 ….

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Monday 31 December 18 00:17 GMT (UK)
Here is the newspaper cutting for the obit for that Mary Anne LEWIS (NSW BDM 15473/1920)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/158722102 National Advocate 13 Sept 1920 ... she is not the widowed mum of your Joseph LEWIS ...

The funeral of the late Mrs. Mary Anne Lewis, a very old and respected resident of Palmer's Oakey, who died at Orange on Friday, took place yesterday. The remains were brought from Orange on Saturday night's mail train and taken to L. V. E. Munn's funeral parlor. From there the cortege left at noon yesterday and proceeded to Palmer's Oakey where the remains were laid to rest with those of her late husband who predeceased her by some nine or ten years. The Rev. H. Prichard officiated at the grave.

 :) err .... before you look further, or notice that 1920 less ten years is not 1863  :)  :D  I am sure you will notice that Palmer's Oakey cannot be mistaken for Fitzgerald's Valley... opposite directions out of Bathurst.   ;)

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Monday 31 December 18 02:03 GMT (UK)
Happy New Years for tomorrow.

Oh where do I start?  probably the easiest.

I had already checked out the Mary A died 1920 she was the wife of a Emanuel Lewis at Orange.

I also had been in contact with Lake Macquarie family history re Thomas Boyd.

Thomas Boyd was the captain of the schooner Maid of the Lake.
His mother was an Elizabeth Lewis. possible sister of Charles,  I also think Thomas Boyd had a son named James Lewis? Could be a connection. Charles the baker and correct age.

Charles was being looked after by his nephew,  this would mean no Mary A ,deceased? divorced?
also no Joseph? maybe family estranged,   Seems this Charles was alone except for the Nephew?

Burial Butt for Charles is different than the death registration,  states his residence Circular Quay, and he was a sailor,  I can understand these mistakes, looks like the Nephew didn't hang around?  There was a sailors home opposite the Observer Tavern.  if the schooner was docked at Circular Quay the coroner would have presumed he was a sailor,  age difference? don't know? The death registration is correct.

My big problem is that I can't find any details of Joseph Lewis for that 20 year gap between 1832 birth and 1853 marriage,  maybe that could explain a lot?

I forgot to check out William Smith and Sarah Lake in Tassie, will have a look after.

I occasionally subscribe to Ancestry,  I have been in touch with quiet a few people in Ancestry re family trees,  unfortunately most are populated from an already incorrect tree,  so no personal research had been done.

I still can't join the dots re the Weavers and my Lewis Family, seem to be skirting around it.

Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Monday 31 December 18 06:21 GMT (UK)
Hi there,

William BOYD … I can see the marriage to Elizabeth JENKS.  I see she was recorded there as a spinster … are you sure she was not?

22 June 1829
William BOYD, bachelor, of the parish of St Philips, a labourer, signed X mark and Elizabeth JENKS, of the parish of St Philips, Spinster, signed
Married by banns, Rev William Cowper, Chaplain.
Witnesses  John BOYD of Sydney, x mark
Edward McROBERTS, of Sydney, signed
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTZJ-B3J : 10 February 2018

Don’t confuse that William BOYD with the chap who was paymaster to 3rd Regiment and who married in Sydney in October 1826, or with the Elizabeth JENKS who married James LEES in January 1837 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTZ7-2PR : 10 February 2018

I have NOT found the origins/parents for that Thomas BOYD, the captain of the Maid of the Lake, but I can see the schooner was a regular coastal trader.

Grevilles PO directory 1875, Catherine Hill Bay
William BOYD, settler
Thomas BOYD, settler
Thomas LEWIS, miner



JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: Dundee on Monday 31 December 18 12:03 GMT (UK)

James Smith, the son of John Smith and Sarah Watson married a Harriet Dover in 1850.



I think it was John's brother, not his son, who married Harriet DOVER.  His headstone has him aged 72 in 1898, his obit gives his age as 76:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/156737964

Debra  :D
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: Dundee on Monday 31 December 18 12:45 GMT (UK)
Briefly, that Sarah GEORGE was transported 1809 per Indispensible to NSW.....
.........She married in NSW in 1810, had children in NSW and then in Tasmania..... 
She died 28 October 1826, in Tasmania. 

I can trace Sarah GEORGE wife of William SMITH through the musters up until 1821 in Sydney.  When is she supposed to have been in Tas?

Debra  :D
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Monday 31 December 18 22:18 GMT (UK)
Briefly, that Sarah GEORGE was transported 1809 per Indispensible to NSW.....
.........She married in NSW in 1810, had children in NSW and then in Tasmania..... 
She died 28 October 1826, in Tasmania. 

I can trace Sarah GEORGE wife of William SMITH through the musters up until 1821 in Sydney.  When is she supposed to have been in Tas?

Debra  :D

 :)  That extract came from my long post where I mention that I had not followed up the new Tas database within the BDA database  :)  here is a more detailed  extract from my post ... noting it was Speculative, I had not looked further, and the secondary source of the data ...

Re William and Sarah SMITH and Mary Ann SMITH’s baptism 14 May 1815.

SPECULATIVE,
but the following casts doubt over IF that baby grew up and was the lass who married Charles LEWIS in Sydney …

A Marriage:
William SMITH, bachelor, of Sydney, a Cook and Sarah GEORGE, Spinster of Sydney, married 28 August 1810, by Banns, Witnesses  Thomas REYNOLDS (signed) and Mary NUTTLE, signed x mark. Marriage registered St Philips C of E, Sydney by William COWPER. 

So, there’s another William and Sarah SMITH … Is that Mary Ann SMITH’s parents - a definite possibility …. If so, perhaps the following is significant…

I have not looked further than just from my armchair this morning, but

Briefly, that Sarah GEORGE was transported 1809 per Indispensible to NSW.

She married in NSW in 1810, had children in NSW and then in Tasmania.   
She died 28 October 1826, in Tasmania. 

* So, I have read (but not undertaken any investigation), that Two of the children of William SMITH and his wife, Sarah GEORGE were born NSW and the others in Tasmania. 
* I have read, and I have checked and YES I agree that William SMITH and his wife, Sarah GEORGE are findable in Sydney NSW in the November 1814 Muster.  … off stores. 

*** I have not proceeded further,  I am NSW centric, and not VDL centric...    But I had been reading through a database within the BDA database… here is a pdf about that secondary database:

http://www.bda-online.org.au/files/TA1_Database.pdf - please read this through as it explains the database as a secondary ongoing source rather than as a primary source. 

So there’s this burial in Hobart…  https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD35-1-1p9j2k  Mary Anne SMITH.  3 Feb 1839
https://linctas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/names/
and
here's RChat's Tasmania Resources Board with plenty of live links
 https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369953.0

I can find other married women in Sydney in the 1800-1815 years who were recorded as Sarah, wife of XYZ SMITH chaps ... but it is all very speculative, and I continue to urge the effort needs to concentrate of Joseph LEWIS and then his parents before going back further on his mum's parents...
 :)

JM  ;)
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Monday 31 December 18 22:59 GMT (UK)
The parents for this Charlotte were recorded on her baptism as William and Sarah SMITH and that they had married in Sydney ...  NO DATE or other detail that ties back to arrival, or age, or occupation or when, or other children, but here is image ... for a birth in 1824 ...
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD32-1-1-p088j2k  ... it does not join the dots to Mary Ann SMITH, it simply casts further doubt over the Prospect NSW William and Sarah SMITH family ...  :) :D ... remembering that there's a Charlotte SMITH marrying Thomas GALLIOTT in Sydney in 1831 ... other posts give details including witnesses  :) and also Charlotte's burial and later re-burial ...

https://australianroyalty.net.au/individual.php?pid=I26736&ged=purnellmccord.ged

ADD
City of Sydney Assessment books commence mid 1840s, perhaps a worthwhile rainy afternoon concentrated search following Charles LEWIS or Thomas GALLIOTT in the search for Joseph LEWIS in that era BEFORE the Gold rushes and the huge increase in population in NSW  :)

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Tuesday 01 January 19 06:34 GMT (UK)
Refer to post no# 41  Re John Smith and Sarah Watson marriage.

I think that you are definitely on the right track with this.

The witnesses being Thomas Galliott and Charlotte Smith.

I found his birth details he was born 1811 and was the son of Sarah Lake and William Smith, even all the dates match up.

so I am almost certain he was the brother of Charlotte and Mary Ann Smith.

I cannot trace this Sarah Watson, have tried the details in your post but no luck?

Would you have anymore details on her?

Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Wednesday 02 January 19 04:04 GMT (UK)
still not joining the dots to Sarah WEAVERS at Bathurst....  :(

MARRIAGE, St James C of E, by Rev Richard HILL, 1 January 1830
John SMITH, aged 19, bachelor, born in the Colony, abode Sydney, a farmer, signed X and Sarah WATSON, aged 26, spinster, per Princess Royal of 1827, abode Sydney, signed X
Married by Banns with consent of Governor and Guardian.
Witnesses: Thomas GALLIOTT of Castlereagh St, (he signed), and Charlotte SMITH of Pitt St, (signed X)

MARRIAGE, St James C of E, by Rev Richard HILL, 22 June 1831
Thomas GALLIOTT, aged 20, bachelor, came free per Friendship 1818, abode of this parish, Cabinetmaker, signed and Charlotte SMITH, aged 19, Spinster, abode of this parish, signed x
married with Consent of their PARENTS. 
Witnesses: Charles LEWIS of Castlereagh St, signed and Sarah GALLIOTT of Castlereagh St, signed X


RE-INTERMENTS from Devonshire Street Cemetery in 1901:
The following were transferred to Bunnerong, Section 5N, Plot 105,
Emma GALLIOTT died 12th December 1837 aged 11 months.
Emma READ, cousin of the above, died 24th November 1837 aged I year & 9 mths
Joseph, son of Thomas & Charlotte GALLIOTT, died 24th March 1841 aged 6 years.
also Charlotte, wife of Thomas GALLIOTT, died 5th April 1841 aged 27 years
Mary Ann BAXTER, died 11th April 1841 aged 11 years.
Mrs Sarah GALLIOTT, wife of Mr William GALLIOTT, died 22nd April 1855 aged 71 years.

JM

Just bringing it forward to save going back and forth over and over.  So, it seems you have not found anything re John SMITH's bride ...  :o   ummm.... I wonder if she arrived under a different given OR surname .... or if  Princess Royal arrival 1827 ... should be Princess Royal arrival 1829 ... umm... there's a Sarah BRYANT, a Sarah CLARK, a Sarah HANCOCK, a Sarah HAZLE, a Sarah LOVETT, a Sarah PIPER, a Sarah PITCHES, a Sarah QUITTENTON, a Susannah WATSON,  on that ship in 1829 ...   I think it could be the lass arriving as Susannah WATSON ...

Susannah WATSON per Prs. Royal was sent out to the Female Factory at Parramatta in Nov 1829, and sent to the 3rd Class for six weeks for Insolence ...

NSW State Archives has her Ticket of Leave as 39/1171 and her CF as 44/1069 - but she was born abt 1795 ...  ::) 
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/convicts/indexes 

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Wednesday 02 January 19 04:34 GMT (UK)
On the NSW BDM,  there is a marriage for John Smith and Sarah Watson in 1830
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 04 January 19 01:21 GMT (UK)
On the NSW BDM,  there is a marriage for John Smith and Sarah Watson in 1830

Yes, I agree, and I notice that it is indexed at NSW BDM twice,  once as line 4755 of Volume 3B and once as line 140 of Volume 14.   I think you will find that I have typed up the Volume 14 transcription.
And yes, likely same volumes for Mary Ann SMITH …  Line 4895 of Vol 3B and line 174 of Vol 14. 
Two volumes, as in both at parish registers are for St James C of E, Sydney, and thus show that the NSW Chaplains were still obeying the General Orders first announced by Governor Lachlan Macquarie back in 1810 re a centralised quarterly return of baptisms, burials, churchings, marriages …. 

https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/births-deaths-and-marriages-registers-1787-1856
and
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/births-deaths-and-marriages-guide
and
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/family-history-guide
and
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/convicts-guide
and of course, by the 1830s, Sydney Town was basically a small area, from (in general terms) say today’s Central Station (southern end of town)  to The Harbour Bridge  and The Botanic Gardens to the north, and from Darling Harbour to Hyde Park (west to east).   

Don’t overlook that Parramatta was a considerable distance away, by horse or by river,and not within the boundaries of Sydney Town.   City of Sydney Maps are great at showing Sydney Town limits, map 1833 for example : http://atlas.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/
also
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-230682617/view

Basically,  my concern for your research remains  with the 1853 marriage for your Joseph LEWIS and tying it back to his Sydney origins to find his parents.   Yes,  it is likely that’s his baptism in Sydney, based on the information provided on his death registration.   Perhaps that is his father who lived at Lake Macquarie and died during a voyage of a coastal trader, under the captaincy of his nephew on crossing the bar at Swansea… 

But there’s apparently nothing to show that that Charles LEWIS was a father or a husband to anyone… 
The significance of the huge inflow of population to NSW due to gold fever must not be overlooked when searching for deaths in NSW for Charles LEWIS or his wife, Mary Ann LEWIS nee Smith.


Re searching for the Charles LEWIS… the baker, marrying in Sydney to Mary Ann SMITH in 1830 …
Approx 80,000 convicts were transported to NSW until the effective cessation of convictism in 1840.  Of that about 15% were females.   So about 12,000 were females and they were received in NSW as early as the first fleet, and so by natural attrition, there were far less than 12,000 alive by 1840s …   

See the following cutting for statistical info from the 1841 NSW census:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/32190544 Sydney Monitor 2 Sept 1841. 
And brief comparison 1846 and 1851 (ie stats collected before gold rushes)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/60128886 Empire 25 March 1852
and the 1856 info linked on the following thread:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=660501.0   (check the population figures)

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 04 January 19 02:06 GMT (UK)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2216890 Sydney Gaz 19 Aug 1834 …
SATURDAY, AUGUST 16. 
Before Mr. Justice Dowling, …… John Carter was indicted for feloniously receiving,
at Sydney, on the 30th April last, one watch …. value of £2, …… The Attorney-General conducted the case and called Charles Lewis …. I am a baker residing in Clarence-street; I lived at the prisoner's house in April last ; about three months before that time, the prisoner showed me a silver watch ; it was all asunder as if taken to pieces ; he asked me the value of it; I said I could not tell …

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/42007671 The Australian 19 Aug 1834

ARRIVALS … From. London via Hobart Town yesterday, having left the former place on the 15th February, and the latter the 12th inst., the brig Meanwell, Morgan, …  Passengers, Mr. John Jackson and Mr. Charles Lewis.

So that puts at least TWO chaps named Charles LEWIS in Sydney Town from at least 12th August 1834, and one was clearly known to be a baker who was consulted on valuations for silver watches

JM
 
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Friday 04 January 19 05:47 GMT (UK)
Hi, thanks so much for the info,  I know I certainly have elusive ancestors.

I had done research on 10 Charles Lewis convicts, and came back to Charles the baker as being the most likely ancestor.

I think I saw that article in Trove re  Charles the baker, it was quiet a few years ago now, I hadn't printed  it out, so I had completely forgotten, thank you for that.


I vaguely remember there was another article in Trove about a Charles Lewis in Sydney, who stole a coat, he was resentenced to transportation to a penal colony.  This was a 2nd transportation within the colonies, not sure where he was sent?

I am almost certain that Joseph's parents are the Charles and Mary Anne married 1830,  re the connection with Thomas Galliott, the dates, names, occupations, all marry up.

I agree with you re the death of Charles?  as I think I mentioned in an earlier post, that this Charles who died on the schooner seemed to be alone except for a nephew.

Maybe he was sent to Newcastle for reoffending?

It is that 20year gap between Joseph's birth and his marriage that holds all the clues?
I have searched everywhere I can think of, but no luck.

I have been through all the male orphans for those dates, no Joseph Lewis, I thought maybe Mary died early, or Charles got into trouble again.  Mary did have an earlier birth in 1831, named Charles, but this baby died.

It's strange that in all the newspaper reports I have read involving Joseph and Jane there is no mention of Joseph's parents.  I couldn't find a will either,  I found Josephs or should I say intestate,  the property was awarded to his first son Thomas.

Did you find any Charles Lewis at Bathurst?  I can't remember that I did?

Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 04 January 19 06:12 GMT (UK)
Secondary Punishment for those convicted in Sydney in late 1820s and into the 1830s .... possibly sent to Port Macquarie  :) which was where, in the 1820s the Newcastle Convict Settlement was transferred to  :)
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/agency/2111



JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 04 January 19 06:19 GMT (UK)
.....

I am almost certain that Joseph's parents are the Charles and Mary Anne married 1830,  re the connection with Thomas Galliott, the dates, names, occupations, all marry up.....


Have you exhausted the City of Sydney Assessment books ... commencing 1842, follow Thomas GALLIOTT and also Charles LEWIS ... those books show tennants as well as landlords/owners and are organised by street ... look for neighbours, or houses/shops etc ... is there a baker in Clarence St and another baker in Castlereagh St by the 1840s ...

Have you exhausted the BDA holdings ... I think the $30 p.a. sub is one of the best values for NSW centric family history buffs .... I have arriving families from the 1790s, right through the penal era ...

Also, have you accessed the Almanacs for Sydney pre the 1840s ... FindMyPast has several uploaded ...

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Friday 04 January 19 06:39 GMT (UK)
I think I may have done all that research?  I truly cannot remember, as I have been searching this family on and off for about 6 years.  I haven't done Find my Past I know that.

Maybe it's time I did a revisit as I have more leads now, (thank you) than when I first started researching
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 04 January 19 06:40 GMT (UK)
I seem to have missed typing up this sad item ... sorry ...

1 June 1831, private baptism by Rev Richard HILL, St James C of E
Charles, son of Charles and Mary Ann LEWIS, a baker of Castlereagh St
3 June 1831, Sydney burial Charles LEWIS, aged 3 days, burial registered Rev William COWPER, St Phillips C of E  ...
to me, that would likely be a burial at the Sandhills ie Devonshire St ...

I continue to wonder re the Presbyterian marriage for a young man in 1853 and the frequent C of E ...  I am sure that the C of E were not given priority treatment in NSW

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Saturday 05 January 19 02:18 GMT (UK)
Yes that was sad re baby Charles.

Are you aware that a Mary Anne Lewis died the same day?
I first thought that it may have been my Mary died in childbirth?  but this was in 1831 Joseph was born in 1832.

I am sure that the convicts were given preferential treatment to become CoE,  reading a lot about the transportation journeys and all their prayer books etc.

I also have read a letter re a young 14y/o convict, it is so sad, but also it is quiet amusing.
It was to the colonial sec. where he describes that he knows there is a supreme being, and he trembles at the mention of his name.  It goes on to ask that he be transferred from Emu Plains,  and guess what it worked, he was sent to Carters Barracks.
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Saturday 05 January 19 03:15 GMT (UK)
yes, that lad converted from the Jewish faith.   :)   

Re C of E ... I am sure that at no stage was the C of E ever appointed as the EstablishED Church for any of the colonies that became Australia. 

NSW Archives points to formal commencement for bdm events  https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/births-deaths-and-marriages-guide but I am sure I have mentioned that all clergy from every denomination were expected to obey the civil admin's General Orders from 1810 as proclaimed by Lachlan Macquarie.     Macquarie was instrumental for example in having Roman Catholic priests sent out to formalise that denomination's foundations in NSW ... Some of my ancestors were in the 48th regiment of foot and that regiment had a large contingent of rank and file Irish  :)   

Also, we need to remember that those early parish registers for St James C of E and for St Phillips C of E contain entries for ceremonies that were conducted by clergy of various denominations, not just C of E ....  :)  So for example, several of my ancestors were Wesleyans and their baptisms are found in Rev William Cowper's C of E registers with note 'transmitted from XYZ ...' and the date... 

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Saturday 05 January 19 03:31 GMT (UK)
 

Are you aware that a Mary Anne Lewis died the same day?
I first thought that it may have been my Mary died in childbirth?  but this was in 1831 Joseph was born in 1832. ...
NOPE,  I am not aware that a Mary Anne LEWIS died same day as the wee baby Charles LEWIS ...
...
1 June 1831, private baptism by Rev Richard HILL, St James C of E
Charles, son of Charles and Mary Ann LEWIS, a baker of Castlereagh St
3 June 1831, Sydney burial Charles LEWIS, aged 3 days, burial registered Rev William COWPER, St Phillips C of E  ...
to me, that would likely be a burial at the Sandhills ie Devonshire St ... ....

I am aware of a Mary LEWIS (NO second given name) was buried Wilberforce 7 June 1831 by Rev Meares who recorded and that she was aged 27 and was born in the colony ...

I also doubt that would be your lass - not least that a mum succumbing so close to her own wee baby would likely be buried with that baby ... 

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Saturday 05 January 19 03:48 GMT (UK)
I didn't think she was my Mary, but just goes to show how many coincidences there are with common names.
I just subscribed to the Biographical Data Base, hoping maybe I can find some info.

Getting back to the Charles Lewis re offender, is there anywhere online that I can access if he was sent to Port Macquarie?
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Sunday 13 January 19 02:29 GMT (UK)
Hello Ladies & Gentlemen,
Still wading through all the info provided by you wonderful people.

Just thinking re Mary Ann and George Mulhall.

A Mary Ann Smith married George Mulhall in 1835,  also her sister Elizabeth married George's brother William.

I have read a lot of stories on George Mulhall re Pittwater Online News History, they have Mary Ann's parents as William and Sarah the same as my Mary Ann who married Charles Lewis, I wonder are they just guessing who her parents were?

Is it possible that this is the same Mary Ann?  Can she marry under her maiden name of Smith?
from what I gather she was pregnant when she was married.

This is all speculation,  maybe Charles was sent to Port Macquarie re 2nd offender?  I have not been able to check this? but it could explain why he seemed to be alone? and lived in Newcastle.

That still wouldn't explain what happened to their son Joseph Lewis?

Still going through the Biographical Database this takes awhile, unfortunately not much on the Mulhalls.


Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: Dundee on Sunday 13 January 19 04:07 GMT (UK)
I have been pondering the same thing,  mainly because of this:

RE-INTERMENTS from Devonshire Street Cemetery in 1901:
The following were transferred to Bunnerong, Section 5N, Plot 105,
Emma GALLIOTT died 12th December 1837 aged 11 months.
Emma READ, cousin of the above, died 24th November 1837 aged I year & 9 mths
Joseph, son of Thomas & Charlotte GALLIOTT, died 24th March 1841 aged 6 years.
also Charlotte, wife of Thomas GALLIOTT, died 5th April 1841 aged 27 years
Mary Ann BAXTER, died 11th April 1841 aged 11 years.
Mrs Sarah GALLIOTT, wife of Mr William GALLIOTT, died 22nd April 1855 aged 71 years.

JM

I believe Emma was the daughter of William MULHALL/REID and Elizabeth SMITH.  William was going by the name READ/REED/REID at the time.

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Sunday 13 January 19 04:41 GMT (UK)
Yes there does seem to be some connection.

I did contact Newcastle Family History but apparently there were many Charles Lewis's.

We are skirting around the edge of the circle,  I wonder what's in the centre?

Do you know if Mary could  have remarried under her maiden name Smith? Would she have been allowed to?  Is there anywhere you know of that I could find this information?  I am in Brisbane.
I wonder if a marriage cert. for George and Mary Anne in 1835 might have some details.

I think George Mulhall was Irish Roman Catholic. Patrick was his father, an Irish convict.

Add,  golly reading the dates on  the reinterments, must have been a bad year 1841?  it is the same year that a Sarah Smith on the Aeolus died?
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Monday 21 January 19 00:06 GMT (UK)
Hi everyone,
Need some help please.
I can't find the memorial for the Galliott's?
On the Biographical Data Base site states there is a monument alter fair, in the COE section

Add.. sorry forgot to mention refer post 97
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Monday 04 February 19 04:53 GMT (UK)
Hi,  I have been trying to find a death certificate for Charlotte Galliott nee Smith death 1841 and came across these Deaths listed on BDM NSW.

Galliott Chariotte…. died 1841 age 29, which makes her DOB 1812 this is correct.
Galliott Joseph …., died 1841 infant.

I realise the spelling is incorrect,  but could this be the Charlotte Smith that married Thomas Galliott.
Did she die in childbirth?

The re-interments from Devonshire St Cemetery have a Joseph Galliott  died 1841, age 6yo.
Charlotte's death is the same year on both records.
Are there two Thomas and Charlotte Galliott's?
What do you think?
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Monday 04 February 19 06:16 GMT (UK)
No death certs until civil registration commenced in 1856,  and the Early Church Records (V series) are only burial records,  and many are not listed at NSW bdm.  Burial info is scant on those ECR ... and unlikely to help link Charlotte to Joseph's mum.

On the other hand,  Galliott is an unusual surname,  and City of Sydney has uploaded the assessment books from 1842 to recent times ... how many times can you find two separate chaps with his name in Sydney in the same year .... that could help confirm how many there were .... assessment books include the occupier, renter,  leasee, owner, landlord etc ... at one time the council rates were payable by the occupier.

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Monday 04 February 19 06:38 GMT (UK)
Thanks so much, I will have a look at this.
These dates are after Charlotte and Josephs death does this matter?
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Monday 04 February 19 07:24 GMT (UK)
If you find two chaps named Thomas Galliott in Sydney on the same 1840s  rates book,  then we need to check further. 

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Tuesday 05 February 19 02:23 GMT (UK)
Hi, I have looked at the Assessment Books.
There are quiet a few Galliott's

I have a Thos Galliott  year 1845, Ward Macquarie, Castlereagh St.  as the owner or landlord,  the rated person has a different name,   rate books 4-5-6-7-8-9.
Next
Thomas Galliott,  year 1848,  Ward Macquarie,  Castlereagh St.,  rate book 14, house no#152,  he is the rated person,  different owner named.

Also same year, ward, and St.   rate book 15,  house no# 153,  he is the owner and the rated person.
Next
Thomas galliott,  year 1858,  Ward Cook,  Exeter Place, rate books 16-17-18-19  he is the owner,  the rated person is a different name.

All the buildings were listed as houses
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Tuesday 05 February 19 02:46 GMT (UK)
So in 1845, just the one chap found names Thomas Galliott ... suggesting there's just the one head of a household in Sydney in that year by that name...

Likely that's the same chap in 1848 ...

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Tuesday 05 February 19 02:59 GMT (UK)
An alternative spelling of his surname

According to the NSW Archives ONLINE index for Publican’s Licences

Thomas GALLICOTT or GALLIOTT operated a Pub from at least 1833 to at least 1836 at Campbell and Castlereagh Streets, Sydney … The Currency Lass.

https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/publicans-and-innkeepers/indexes

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Tuesday 05 February 19 04:55 GMT (UK)
I am fairly sure there is only ONE Thomas GALLIOTT in this quest  ;D please check my logic ...

Thomas married Charlotte Smith in 1831, Thomas was recorded as a Cabinet maker, and of course there's nothing to stop a cabinet maker becoming a publican ...

Anyways, here’s one of their children

Emma Eliza , born and baptised St Lawrence Sept 1839, parents as Thomas and Charlotte GALLIOTT https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT6V-MVP and https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCF-DQH 

Charlotte died April 1841 and is buried Devonshire St Cemetery, which was where Central Station now stands. NSW BDM do not seem to have the ECR for that burial, but there is one for an infant, 1841, Joseph GALLIOTT, Volume 25B, so C of E … Infant, in that era, an Infant in NSW law could be any person not yet of full age.  And the headstone has this Joseph as aged 6 years ... nothing amiss there...

ADD see next post,  too...  ::) Charlotte's burial found by our OP .... My  specs ... how could I ... sorry for my mistooken ...

Christ Church St Lawrence is still where it was back in 1839 … and is opposite Central Station, ie is at 812 George St Sydney.

Thomas marries Bridget MURPHY in 1841 … that m.c. will have scant information, (as it predates the civil registration process) BUT it should show Thomas’ status … as a Widower … and give a date for the marriage as more recent that the headstone information for Charlotte GALLIOTT …  A partial transcription will be sufficient to sort, and the official transcribers are noted on the NSW BDM online website.  More pennies left for other actual certs ....

Edward James born Oct 1843, baptised St Lawrence 5 Nov 1843, parents as Thomas and Bridget GALLIOTT.  https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTX9-5YF

Christ Church St Laurence has an Archivist … it may be worth while considering contacting them, and seeing if they have perhaps any information about the Pew Holders at that time, or access to the CofE Family Sheet or better still any parish register information including margin entries for GALLIOTT in the late 1830s and into the 1840s … The ceremonies would have been conducted in a temporary building provided by John Terry HUGHES … nephew of Samuel HUGHES http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/terry-samuel-2721 

https://ccsl.org.au/archives-history/  and https://ccsl.org.au/contact/

https://www.sydney.com.au/christ-church-st-laurence-sydney.htm
Christ Church St Laurence
 
Construction of the Christ Church St Laurence began in 1840 on the original site of the parish hall which had been there since the mid 1830's. Prior to the construction of the church services were held in the Parish of St. Laurence storeroom. Henry Robertson was architect appointed to design the church. The original church was completed in 1841.



JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Tuesday 05 February 19 05:11 GMT (UK)
Agh  my mistooken ... you have found Charlotte in 1841 at NSW bdm ...

Hi,  I have been trying to find a death certificate for Charlotte Galliott nee Smith death 1841 and came across these Deaths listed on BDM NSW.

Galliott Chariotte…. died 1841 age 29, which makes her DOB 1812 this is correct.
Galliott Joseph …., died 1841 infant.

I realise the spelling is incorrect,  but could this be the Charlotte Smith that married Thomas Galliott.
Did she die in childbirth?

The re-interments from Devonshire St Cemetery have a Joseph Galliott  died 1841, age 6yo.
Charlotte's death is the same year on both records.
Are there two Thomas and Charlotte Galliott's?
What do you think?

I am more convinced just the one Thomas ...

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Tuesday 05 February 19 05:12 GMT (UK)
So that D.C. for Chariotte Galliott died in 1841 would be correct?

I also found a coroners inquest for Edward Galliott died 1844
The parents were on a charge of murder, were found not guilty.
But the parents names were Thomas Galliott and Maryann Galliott.
Oh why is this all so hard?
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Tuesday 05 February 19 05:33 GMT (UK)
I suspect the newspaper reporter may have got confuddled and asked "what is the name" .. and the person he asked heard the question as "what is THY name"  ... and she replied .... Mary Ann ... and the reporter proceeded to make his notes .... noone realising their errors  ...  Speculating ... .... .... Mrs Lewis .... if only .... 

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Tuesday 05 February 19 05:58 GMT (UK)
Hmm, I don't know about the reporter getting the name incorrect?
This was a murder trial and it was reported over more than one newspaper.
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Tuesday 05 February 19 06:34 GMT (UK)
One reporter for one newspaper,  other papers copy the story ... no such thing as an exclusive report in that era ...  :) 

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Tuesday 05 February 19 07:17 GMT (UK)
Just reading more on the murder trial.
The place of residence was Exeter Place which was on the list of rent books I posted for Thomas Galliott.
Oh my poor head is starting to spin again.

Whatever, I don't like this fellow he used to belt her up, I am starting to feel upset

I do remember now in my earlier research that he was up on a charge of assaulting Bridget Murphy.

Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Tuesday 05 February 19 07:55 GMT (UK)
Have you confirmed that your Joseph LEWIS was definitely the nephew of Charlotte GALLIOTT ....

I am wondering if Joseph's mum's death may have occurred in NSW and after civil registration commenced,  in which case perhaps her death cert could  have Joseph as informant and you could have less head spinning.

ADD  ... the sensational witness account was not repeated in other reports .... perhaps the reporter was somewhat taken with the Spanish / Chile neighbour giving evidence ....

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Tuesday 05 February 19 09:33 GMT (UK)
The only way I can prove that Charlotte Galliott nee Smith, who is Mary Ann's sister, is to try and find a Mary Ann Lewis death cert.  There are hundreds of them.
That's why I was trying to find Charlotte's d.c.
I might order a copy of the transcription that I found for Chariotte Galliott, might have some info.

I did get a copy of Mary Mulhall's d.c. died 1886, Broken Bay, born Prospect,  father James Smith,  farmer,  spouse George Mulhall,  informant George Mulhall,  son,  Lighthouse Broken Bay.

Also have marriage cert of Elizabeth Reid-Mulhall, nee Smith, Mary Ann's other sister, witnesses were Thomas and Charlotte Galliott.

I have been trying to skirt around Mary Ann Lewis as would take me forever.

On Joseph's d.c. the informant was a friend from Fitzgeralds Valley.
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Thursday 07 March 19 05:17 GMT (UK)
Hello to all,
I have been having another look at my possible ancestor Mary Ann Smith?  and have a few questions that I am hoping you may be able to answer for me?
Following is what I know from transcriptions.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

NSW, death Mary Mulhall, 1886 Broken Bay, Spouse George, She was born Prospect abt 1811 father, James Smith farmer.

Found 2 possible Mary's from 1823/24/25 muster

1  Mary Smith 9, BC  father William Smith Parramatta
2  Mary A Smith 10, BC father James Parramatta

NSW Marriage, 1833 Sydney  Thomas Weavers Bachelor, to Sarah Smith, Widow, witnesses, William Mulhall and Elizabeth Mulhall.                                                                                 William and Elizabeth married in 1832, Thomas and Charlotte Galliott were the witnesses and were also witness to Charles Lewis and Mary A Smith marriage in 1830.

My guess is that William is George Mulhall's brother,  and Elizabeth Mulhall is Sarah Smith's youngest daughter.

My questions are,
Mary Mulhall, nee Smith, was pregnant and had a child, Elizabeth Jane a few weeks before she married George Mulhall,  why do you think she waited till after the baby was born before she married? you would think that she would marry when she found out she was pregnant? unless.
Was she married to Charles Lewis still?
Were divorces allowed?

It appears that George and William Mulhall were illegitimate, they were Roman Catholics, could this be a reason?

I would be happy for you to point me in the right direction, should I try and find why Charles dropped of the radar?

Thanking you.







Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Thursday 07 March 19 06:03 GMT (UK)
Hi,

I will go back over  the thread later and consider your excellent questions.   I can answer one straight away ....

Illegitimacy .... no,  a person's denomination had no effect ...clergy marry according to their denomination's 'rites'.

In fact,  in NSW,  there was never any  formal 'Established'  church....  there are various baptisms, burials, marriages recorded in several C of E parish registers in the penal era  of NSW that are transmitted records for ceremonies that were not conducted by CofE clergy. 



JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Thursday 07 March 19 06:05 GMT (UK)
And second answer

Divorce ...

Divorce laws did not come to NSW  until 1873....

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Thursday 07 March 19 06:09 GMT (UK)
Thanking you, 2 down.
Just thought of something, would the minister know they were illegitimate?
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Thursday 07 March 19 06:27 GMT (UK)
Clergy were and are trained to have open minds.  They hear and see many things.

  If for example they learn that the baby brought to be baptised was born outside of marriage,  that does not stop the baby from being baptised,  baptism has no effect on making the relationship between the parents legitimate or otherwise.... same with marriage .... The marital status of the parents of either the bride or the groom has no effect on the eligibillity of the bride or groom to be married to each other....  Burials ... same.... whether the deceased's parents were married to each other ... nope not a concern

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Thursday 07 March 19 06:40 GMT (UK)
Thanks so much, I will leave you to it.
Have to go now
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Friday 08 March 19 04:11 GMT (UK)
Just wanted to wish everyone happy International Women's Day
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 08 March 19 22:02 GMT (UK)
Well, sadly,   I  continue to have concerns as to joining dots for Joseph's ancestors.  I still cannot see how to confirm that it was his dad on that inquest .... and I cannot find his mum's death either. 

I can speculate that your guesses may be on track ... but I also know that SMITH as a surname in Sydney in that era can be difficult to validate with any official document ...

Perhaps go to Charles LEWIS death and look for the informant as a possible first cousin to Joseph .... why did Joseph not get mentioned on that ... perhaps not known by informant... where buried,  burial order,  who paid for plot,  who were they etc ... so seek to positively confirm a connection from the info in that set of records with your 100% confirmed known ancestor Joseph...

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Saturday 09 March 19 00:33 GMT (UK)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18694459 Maitland Mercury 24 March 186 

DEATH OF AN OLD MAN.-The City Coroner held an Inquest at the Observer Tavern, George-street North, on the body of a man named Charles Lewis, aged sixty-six years. The deceased man resided near Lake Macquarie, and being very unwell, suffering from a rupture, his nephew, who was captain of a small Schooner called the Maid of the Lake, determined to bring him to Sydney to get him into the Infirmary. On Tuesday last the schooner sailed for Sydney, and while crossing the bar Lewis went down below, fell to the floor, and died. Upon the arrival of the schooner in Sydney the body was removed to the dead house, Circular Quay, where it was seen by Dr. Hamilton. That gentleman was of opinion, from the appearance of the body and history of the case, that serious apoplexy was the Immediate cause of death. Verdict- “Died suddenly from natural causes."-Herald, March 20

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/115427312 Freeman’s Journal 21 March 1863
…… Another inquest was also held at same place on the body of a man named Charles Lewis, aged 66 years.  On the 16th instant he exhibited signs of illness, and on the following day his nephew, who is in command of the schooner Maid of the Lake determined to bring him to Sydney and have him admitted into the Infirmary.  Whilst the vessel was crossing the bar the deceased suddenly expired.  Mr Hamilton examined the body and stated that in his opinion death was caused by serious apoplexy …. 

I leave it to sararina to search for the name of the commander of the Maid of the Lake.

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Saturday 09 March 19 03:32 GMT (UK)
I am probably duplicating info already given, but I have noticed that there are a number of submitted trees available online, and there is the d.c. for Sarah WEAVERS …. So here is my  interpretation of that NSW BDM death cert for Sarah WEAVERS, ref 1876/004820

273
21st July 1876, at Brilliant Street BATHURST
Sarah WEAVERS, Widow, Female, aged 92 years(1876 – 92 = 1784ish)
Cause of death: Old Age,  Body buried under Coroner’s Order  - so was there an Inquest?
NO details re her parents, including no NEE NAME for her mother.
Informant was James SMITH who made his mark.  He was a Farmer and Grazier of Reedy Creek, BLAYNEY, and his mark was witnessed by Arthur POUND (hard to decipher that surname, I may be wrong).

Death registered 22 July, 1876, at Bathurst.

Sarah was buried Bathurst 24th July 1876.

The informant (her son James) knew that Sarah was from Herefordshire, England, and had been in NSW for 61 years.  (92 minus 61 = arrived at age 31;  1876 minus 61 = arrived in 1815; )

He also knew that she had been twice married in NSW, but no mention of any previous marriage/s before her arrival at age 31 in 1815:

NSW marriages
Firstly to John SMITH at Prospect NSW at an unknown age and the children of that marriage were:  William, aged about 56;  Mary about 54,  Susan about 52,  James about 51 with 10 deceased of unknown sexes.   

Secondly to Thomas WEAVERS, at Sydney NSW at age 33, and the children of that marriage were: Thomas, aged 42 with 2 males deceased.

The tree owner has this Sarah as born SARAH LAKE 11 April 1791, daughter of a John LAKE and as arriving NSW in 1808 per the Admiral Gambier.    I cannot see that the tree owner has considered and/or reconciled the d.c. info with any other info official records.

If Joseph LEWIS was my ancestor, I would be seeking the descendants of his children with the view to finding if any are holding Joseph's family Bible (assuming one exists) to see if he had recorded any information about himself, his infant brother who had died prior to his own birth, his own parents ....


JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Saturday 09 March 19 04:19 GMT (UK)
I have Charles Lewis D.C. unfortunately not much info. states he was a baker, age 66, born London,  no father, no mother, no marriage,  but I gather this would have been the case as the informant was the coroner, and it appears the nephew did not hang around.
Charles was buried at Camperdown Cemetery 20th Mar 1863.
I have the burial butt, which is incorrect,  Charles was described as a sailor, residence Circular Quay, age 50?
I can understand how he was described as a sailor, being the fact that he was on the Maid of The Lake,  and a sailors home was just over the road from the dead house, the age was probably hard to guess after a stroke, and we don't know long the body was kept before it was looked at? (no refrigeration) oh doesn't bear thinking about, the smell.
Very sad looks as if no one cared for this fellow?

The captain of the schooner was a Thomas Boyd, he was born in 1832 at Sydney, the son of William Smith and Elizabeth Lewis.  Thomas died Aug. 1903 at Newcastle Hospital of a stroke, he was buried 2 days later at Belmont CoE Cemetery.
There is a possibility that this Elizabeth was a sister to Charles?  but that still doesn't explain why he was in Newcastle, no Mary, no Joseph,  this is why I thought he may have reoffended and been sent to Newcastle? Mary may have married George Mulhall?  but then what happened to Joseph Lewis , Mary and Charles's son? lots of speculation?

Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Saturday 09 March 19 04:34 GMT (UK)
I have learnt my lesson from Ancestry trees !!!!!!!!  sometimes children are born 2 years after their parents death? very clever.

You are so correct, I would like to try and get in touch with Joseph's descendants,  but I don't know how?
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Saturday 09 March 19 05:31 GMT (UK)
......

The captain of the schooner was a Thomas Boyd, he was born in 1832 at Sydney, the son of William Smith and Elizabeth Lewis.  Thomas died Aug. 1903 at Newcastle Hospital of a stroke, he was buried 2 days later at Belmont CoE Cemetery.
There is a possibility that this Elizabeth was a sister to Charles?  but that still doesn't explain why he was in Newcastle, no Mary, no Joseph,  this is why I thought he may have reoffended and been sent to Newcastle? Mary may have married George Mulhall?  but then what happened to Joseph Lewis , Mary and Charles's son? lots of speculation?
How do you know Thomas  BOYD is son of SMITH or LEWIS ....


JM

Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Saturday 09 March 19 05:47 GMT (UK)
1822

I am confident that that is the year that Newcastle ceased being a penal  settlement.

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Saturday 09 March 19 05:56 GMT (UK)
I received the info about the Boyd and Lewis family from the History Officer at Lake Macquarie City Library
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Saturday 09 March 19 06:03 GMT (UK)
I received the info about the Boyd and Lewis family from the History Officer at Lake Macquarie City Library

Did they tell you that Thomas BOYD had a brother who was also surnamed BOYD ....

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/138312593 Newcastle Herald 12 Aug 1903.


And,  did they provide you with the source of their information  :D so you can validate it?



JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Saturday 09 March 19 06:17 GMT (UK)
Here is cutting for Thomas BOYD's brother's death
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/136110532 Newcastle Herald 31 Oct 1905

NSWBDM online deaths index has
1903, Thomas BOYD parents as William and Elizabeth #10961
1905, William BOYD parents as William and Elizabeth #  13536

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Saturday 09 March 19 06:23 GMT (UK)
Yes Thomas had a brother William.
Apparently the info she sent me is from the Boyd Family History they have in their collection.
The Boyd family were well known shipbuilders
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Saturday 09 March 19 06:27 GMT (UK)
Yes,  the BOYD family were involved in shipping,  but who was William SMITH ... 

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Saturday 09 March 19 06:28 GMT (UK)
She told me there were a few books written about them.
I did try to find siblings Elizabeth and Charles Lewis born around 1795/1797, from memory I think there were a couple of possibilities, I have Charles from the Neptune being born at Stepney, England.
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Saturday 09 March 19 06:29 GMT (UK)
https://history.lakemac.com.au/page-local-history.aspx?pid=1085&vid=20&tmpt=showmedia&objid=1547

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Saturday 09 March 19 06:34 GMT (UK)
James Lewis BOYD

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/134064217  6 August 1951 Newcastle Herald ... funeral


JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Saturday 09 March 19 06:51 GMT (UK)
Looks like there is quiet a lot of info on them, the lady did suggest that it was worth looking into to see if there was a connection to my Charles.
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Saturday 09 March 19 06:53 GMT (UK)
I will get some of my hardcopy local history out, but probably not get the spare moments to go through until next weekend.... but here is some online info on Thomas BOYD ... so I am concerned as to where the surname changed from SMITH to BOYD .... and why the library has given you info from a family history folder when they already had the surname as BOYD on parish maps from the 1850s ....  within their own holdings...   :) 

https://history.lakemac.com.au/page-local-history.aspx?pid=1085&vid=20&tmpt=narrative&narid=80

Early Settlers:
During the 1840's Henry Denny occupied the land owned by Boughton. Denny assisted cattle stealers.

In 1853 Thomas Boyd brought John Taaffe and his family to Lake Macquarie Heads. Taaffe selected a portion of land on a hill near Galgabba Point at the southern end of Pelican Flat. Two years later in 1855 Boyd and family settled nearby.

By 1860 a settler named Frederick Chaney had also come to the district.


JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Saturday 09 March 19 07:18 GMT (UK)
Thanks so much, your such a wiz, I actually spent hours looking for a sister for Charles I got so sick of it.
One last query before I go,  do you know how I can find descendants of Joseph Lewis?
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Saturday 09 March 19 07:32 GMT (UK)
Thanks so much, your such a wiz, I actually spent hours looking for a sister for Charles I got so sick of it.
One last query before I go,  do you know how I can find descendants of Joseph Lewis?

Start with the info about his children as per his d.c

Check this against both NSW bdm indexes and electoral rolls ....  check who inherited,  etc....   follow the lads as most often one would get the land ....   title deeds, probates, directories all have addresses, not just names ...

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Thursday 28 March 19 05:37 GMT (UK)
Hello, I am just wondering if anyone was able to find out if the mother of Thomas Boyd, Elizabeth Boyd, nee Lewis, could be the sister of Charles Lewis who died on the schooner The Maid of the Lake, in 1863.   Thomas Boyd was the nephew of Charles Lewis.
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Thursday 28 March 19 06:16 GMT (UK)
......

The captain of the schooner was a Thomas Boyd, he was born in 1832 at Sydney, the son of William Smith and Elizabeth Lewis.  Thomas died Aug. 1903 at Newcastle Hospital of a stroke, he was buried 2 days later at Belmont CoE Cemetery.
There is a possibility that this Elizabeth was a sister to Charles?  but that still doesn't explain why he was in Newcastle, no Mary, no Joseph,  this is why I thought he may have reoffended and been sent to Newcastle? Mary may have married George Mulhall?  but then what happened to Joseph Lewis , Mary and Charles's son? lots of speculation?
How do you know Thomas  BOYD is son of SMITH or LEWIS ....


JM

Does his d.c. give info about  himself, his descendants, his parents, .... was there a will  .... can the info on the d.c. be validated against any marriage,  or birth records,  how reliable ....  are you sure of Elizabeth LEWIS ...

JM

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Thursday 28 March 19 06:45 GMT (UK)
 :)  Have you sorted how Charles LEWIS's nephew (Thomas BOYD) is noted as son of William SMITH ...   
 :) I am still doubting that that Charles is actually your  Joseph's father.... 1860s ... so a decade or more after the gold rushes started ... so many people rushed from around the world,  and of course back in 1849,  so many rushed from NSW to California ....
 ... no sign of Joseph's mum from 1832 .... gone ....
 :) quit the marriage
 :) quit the colony leaving her son behind
 :) became known by another name
 :) died and buried and no extant record found

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Thursday 28 March 19 06:47 GMT (UK)
Unfortunately all I have is the info sent to me by the Family History Soc. Lake Macquarie.
This stated that Thomas and William were the sons of William Boyd and Elizabeth Lewis
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Thursday 28 March 19 06:53 GMT (UK)
I have sent another email to the family history society re Charles Lewis and Elizabeth Boyd so I am hoping to get some more information from them.

I am leaning towards Mary Ann Smith marrying Charles Lewis and George Mulhall.
There are so many connections.
This is why I am thinking Charles was alone with no family except Thomas Boyd.

I am sorry I have to log off now.
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Thursday 28 March 19 06:57 GMT (UK)
I have Charles Lewis D.C. unfortunately not much info. states he was a baker, age 66, born London,  no father, no mother, no marriage,  but I gather this would have been the case as the informant was the coroner, and it appears the nephew did not hang around.
Charles was buried at Camperdown Cemetery 20th Mar 1863.
I have the burial butt, which is incorrect,  Charles was described as a sailor, residence Circular Quay, age 50?
I can understand how he was described as a sailor, being the fact that he was on the Maid of The Lake,  and a sailors home was just over the road from the dead house, the age was probably hard to guess after a stroke, and we don't know long the body was kept before it was looked at? (no refrigeration) oh doesn't bear thinking about, the smell.
Very sad looks as if no one cared for this fellow?

The captain of the schooner was a Thomas Boyd, he was born in 1832 at Sydney, the son of William Smith and Elizabeth Lewis.  Thomas died Aug. 1903 at Newcastle Hospital of a stroke, he was buried 2 days later at Belmont CoE Cemetery.
There is a possibility that this Elizabeth was a sister to Charles?  but that still doesn't explain why he was in Newcastle, no Mary, no Joseph,  this is why I thought he may have reoffended and been sent to Newcastle? Mary may have married George Mulhall?  but then what happened to Joseph Lewis , Mary and Charles's son? lots of speculation?

Sorry I had understood this SMITH was from the historian at Lake Macquarie.....

JM

Unfortunately all I have is the info sent to me by the Family History Soc. Lake Macquarie.
This stated that Thomas and William were the sons of William Boyd and Elizabeth Lewis
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Thursday 28 March 19 08:07 GMT (UK)
Here is cutting for Thomas BOYD's brother's death
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/136110532 Newcastle Herald 31 Oct 1905

NSWBDM online deaths index has
1903, Thomas BOYD parents as William and Elizabeth #10961
1905, William BOYD parents as William and Elizabeth #  13536

JM

Yes,  the BOYD family were involved in shipping,  but who was William SMITH ... 

JM

Do you have either of those two chaps NSW BDM death registrations?  if so, from those records, what information did the informant provide about each one's places of birth, mother, father, etc...

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Thursday 28 March 19 08:21 GMT (UK)
So you are considering the following marriage ...

211/1835
V1835 211 129
George MULHALL married Mary A SMITH, district displayed as LD.   LD is the code for a marriage record found in the parish registers for St Mary's Cathedral, Sydney, and is for Roman Catholic marriages.  He would perhaps be the famous Mossman's Jack, a rower, on Sydney Harbour.

Have you checked NSW BDM online index to consider if Mary MULHALL's death registration has parents names displayed there.... if they do, perhaps it would be worthwhile for you to consider seeking her death cert, as your Joseph LEWIS should be listed as her son there for your thoughts to have some independent documentary support. :D

ADD,  the 1830 Charles LEWIS marriage is indexed as CJ,  ie Church of England, St James, Sydney.

JM


 
   

Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Thursday 28 March 19 09:33 GMT (UK)
I have Mary Mulhall d.c. states female, Prospect, age 75, no mother, father James,
Children George, Patrick, William, Sarah.
Informant, son George.
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Thursday 28 March 19 09:36 GMT (UK)
I also have William Reid-Mulhall marriage cert to Elizabeth Smith, Mary's youngest sister, they were married COE, so looks like they didn't bother too much re religion?
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Thursday 28 March 19 09:41 GMT (UK)
William Smith Boyd, the father of Thomas and William Boyd, for some reason used his fathers surname Matthew Boyd and his mothers surname Elizabeth Smith.
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Thursday 28 March 19 09:48 GMT (UK)
I have details of Thomas Boyd's marriage to Eliza Freeman in 1859, he gave his mother's name as Elizabeth Lewis. 
Eliza Freeman's parents were James Freeman and Mary Smith (I can't seem to get away from Mary Smith)  They were married in Sydney, 1859, witnesses James Lees and Louisa Lees.
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Thursday 28 March 19 10:02 GMT (UK)
I have Mary Mulhall d.c. states female, Prospect, age 75, no mother, father James,
Children George, Patrick, William, Sarah.
Informant, son George.
and
I also have William Reid-Mulhall marriage cert to Elizabeth Smith, Mary's youngest sister, they were married COE, so looks like they didn't bother too much re religion?
and
William Smith Boyd, the father of Thomas and William Boyd, for some reason used his fathers surname Matthew Boyd and his mothers surname Elizabeth Smith.
Hi,

 :) on the d.c. for Mary MULHALL,  what information is there for her marriage to George, and for her age at that marriage, and for any mention of any other marriage?  what cemetery, what denomination for the clergy noted on that d.c.

 :) on the Elizabeth SMITH marriage, what information on that document gives you that she had a   sister, and what was her sister's name at the time of that Elizabeth's marriage, and what information about her parents from that marriage cert?

 :) what documentation do you have to support the notions  that
i) William Smith Boyd,  was the father of Thomas and William Boyd,
ii) William Smith Boyd for some reason used his fathers surname Matthew Boyd and his mothers surname Elizabeth Smith" ....and where does Matthew Boyd come into this
iii) William Smith Boyd ... father of Thomas and William Boyd ... and how is that Elizabeth SMITH connected to your Joseph LEWIS

May I suggest that you do a time line, working from the death certificate for your confirmed LEWIS ancestor, back to his/her parent, Joseph LEWIS at Fitz' Valley, before you venture back to Charles or his nephew, or any of the Smiths.   I think once you have sorted the Fitz' Valley LEWIS families, it will be clearer and you could then see some smaller brickwalls to tackle,  rather than at present it seems to me there is a four sided solid brickwall, no opening, no gateway, fully surrounded by a deep moat, and guarded by the lack of information available.

JM







Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Thursday 28 March 19 10:09 GMT (UK)
I will look at this tomorrow when I clear my head again.
Elizabeth Smith is not closely to Joseph Lewis, she is the younger sister of Mary Ann Smith.
Elizabeth married William Mulhall.
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Thursday 28 March 19 10:16 GMT (UK)
I have long held the view that prior to the gold rushes in NSW the most popular female name was Mary and that after the rush of people, the most popular female name was Mary Ann. 
And both before and after the rushes ... John was the most popular name for males.

The most popular surname :  SMITH, followed by BROWN. 

And, having been researching in NSW families for errr ... since late 1950s as a child ... errr ... and having ancestors arriving as a) came free in the 1790s,  and b) Convicts in the 1800s, and more recently in the penal er, and c) as garrison forces and families of them .... well, I believe that the most difficult name is Mary SMITH.  It can be  for an alias, a married name, a spinster, a widow, a contraction of a longer 'smith' name (Blacksmith etc) and it can be an alternative spelling for a European surname eg SCHMIDT ... so to me, it is very important to hasten slowly, and to re-hash the KNOWN and avoid making any assumptions.

Timeline ... Assemble all those NSW BDM documents, put them into chronological order by year of event... most recent to earliest...

Just my thoughts/suggestions of course. 

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Thursday 28 March 19 10:18 GMT (UK)
There is no issue with the Joseph Lewis that married Jane Noble, his parents were Charles Lewis and Mary Ann Smith, this is all confirmed.
It is the other Joseph Lewis that was born in 1851 and married Elizabeth Hart that is the issue.
His parents are noted as Joseph Lewis and Sarah Unknown.
He is noted on Joseph Lewis senior d.c. ,  but that is the only place,  he is not listed on Jane Noble's d.c. or is he listed as a sibling on Susannah Lewis (my grandmother) birth cert
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Thursday 28 March 19 10:24 GMT (UK)
I will look at this tomorrow when I clear my head again.
Elizabeth Smith is not closely to Joseph Lewis, she is the younger sister of Mary Ann Smith.
Elizabeth married William Mulhall.

But what information gives you that that Elizabeth (  Mrs MULHALL)  is the younger sister of that Mary Ann ( Mrs LEWIS who you are considering married twice, second time becoming a Mrs MULHALL)... For Mary Ann SMITH's marriage to MULHALL, even in that era (1835), the clergy should record if she was a spinster or a widow...  and if both marriages were in Sydney  (St Marys R.C  1835 and St James C of E 1830) then the churches are actually basically within 'cooee' of each other.  In that era, the clergy all kept in contact with each other, regardless of their own denomination.  Convictism in NSW ceased in 1840, so the clergy needed to be aware of the rules re people seeking to marry, and the checking process to follow to ensure any convicts were following the rules re seeking permission to marry. 

JM

Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Thursday 28 March 19 10:25 GMT (UK)
I had been in contact with a Lewis family still living at the Valley,  they tried to help with my research but apparently no one wanted to speak to them about the family.
This lady had a stroke, so I will not be annoying them about my elusive ancestors.
I remember reading about Mary Ann being the most popular name, trust me to have a Lewis, the most popular for a convict to NSW. Smith, what more can I say.
The number of coincidences I have come across is amazing.
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Thursday 28 March 19 10:34 GMT (UK)
I have Mary Ann Smith's marriage cert to George Mulhall,  there is nothing recorded for her, no mother, no father, no status, only thing mentioned is she was born in the colony.
She had a child 3 days before she married George Mulhall.
This is why I thought Charles Lewis may have reoffended?
I seem to remember reading something on Trove about a Charles Lewis charged with stealing and being sentenced to a penal colony, (2nd offence) I will have to see if I can find it again
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Thursday 28 March 19 10:35 GMT (UK)
Maybe even the clergy got sick of Mary Ann's
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Thursday 28 March 19 10:42 GMT (UK)
There is no issue with the Joseph Lewis that married Jane Noble, his parents were Charles Lewis and Mary Ann Smith, this is all confirmed.
It is the other Joseph Lewis that was born in 1851 and married Elizabeth Hart that is the issue.
His parents are noted as Joseph Lewis and Sarah Unknown.
He is noted on Joseph Lewis senior d.c. ,  but that is the only place,  he is not listed on Jane Noble's d.c. or is he listed as a sibling on Susannah Lewis (my grandmother) birth cert

And from the marriage cert to Jane NOBLE .. what information is shown for that Joseph's parents ... it predates civil registration, and I think you would be relying on the death cert for Joseph as confirmation of his parentage.

And from the marriage cert to Elizabeth HART ... I am sure you will need to follow up to gain the elusive information from the Church Register as the marriage occurred in 1875, so prior to the resolution of a very long running dispute -  "Church v State'  four decades, the various Denominations versus the NSW Parliament, not resolved until 1895, and then from then to present, the  NSW BDM has basically been unable to obtain the funding to complete the reconciliation process... 


 :)  yes, so many Mary Ann lasses ... I have some in every generation in my tree, both paternal and maternal lines.  Can I trade you some?  John and Mary SMITH ... or John and Mary Brown, plenty of them too,  NSW of course.   :) 1800s ... rural NSW ... out around umm.... Bathurst, Orange, Oberon, Rockley, Neville, Blayney, Carcoar,and of course much further out west ... on the Darling, and up into Qld, and down to Vic and into South Australia... 


JM

 
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Thursday 28 March 19 22:26 GMT (UK)
Charles LEWIS ...  ::)  ::)  :D

Question : who is this one giving evidence in a Quarter Sessions Court in Bathurst in 1853 ...
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/62047896 23 July 1853. 
The evidence basically was that Charles LEWIS and John MCGRATH were at Tambaroora and that the sheets of bark (so the readily available material for lining their huts) was stolen.  The evidence they gave lead to the prisoner being found guilty and sentenced to six months Hard labour.    Yes, Tambaroora is not near the Fitz Valley but it was within the same police district at that time. 

Question :  Have you researched the land titles for your Joseph LEWIS' land in that Valley ... when did he commence to occupy it? 

We know that Joseph and Jane LEWIS were married in 1853, and their first child was Mary A in 1854, a C of E baptism Vol 40, - likely this would be a baptism at St Mary Magdalen, South Creek, (so I think that would be today's Sydney suburb of St Marys) https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTHV-T26

Observation:  Would Joseph be naming his first child after his Mum ... yes,that's likely.  So should he be naming a son after his Dad... I cannot see any births for a son named Charles for Joseph and Jane LEWIS, but the births from commencement of civil registration are for the NSW BDM Bathurst district ... so I think this list may be useful... 

1854, Mary A (Vol 40, line 3382 – C of E)
1857, Charlotte #4593   
1860, Thomas, #4964, 
1862, Elizabeth J (Vol 155, line 962)
1862, William T J #4794,
1863, James #5163, 
1865, Susannah, #5410, 
1866, John H, #5634, 
1868, Jane #6030, 
1870, Hannah #6269, (elder of twins)
1870, Ellen #6270,   (younger of twins)
1873, Eleanor Helmore, #7208, 
1876, George Arthur #7504

Anyway, there's a start on looking for someone within the Lewis family who may also be researching this line, and may be interested in sharing info with you.

Please do remember that there's not been any connection actual found between the Charles LEWIS, a baker who died on the coaster, on Lake Macquarie in 1863 and the Charles LEWIS, a baker who married Mary Ann SMITH in Sydney in 1830.   

Question : Who was the Charles LEWIS who married in 1832 to Sarah (variations on her surname include O'DONNELL and O'DONALD) ... in Sydney  :)

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 29 March 19 00:18 GMT (UK)
Possible info to be found re Charles LEWIS as father to Joseph LEWIS...  see final paragraph.

Some further thoughts...

 :D LAND at Fitzgerald Swamp

Probably simply a co-incidence, but on a NSW parish map from 1884 shows Fitzgerald Swamp and the settlers and land title information etc … so forexample  there is a J McGRATH, with 40 acres as a near neighbour to T WEAVERS with several adjoining lots … 48 acres, 45 acres, 34 acres, 42 acres and a separate lot of 32 acres …  cannot see any land for LEWIS
Info from the nswlrs, hlrv etc … File 11327601 etc
Parish of Cole, County of Bathurst

http://www.nswlrs.com.au/

go to ‘free online searches’ and from there, go to ‘historical land records viewer’ and then ‘launch HLRV’  and then in the dialogue box  area, click ‘get results’ and select ‘historical parish maps’ and deselect all other options.   Enter COLE in the keyword box. 

Several parish maps are listed.  I chose the one dated 1884 as that seems to be the earliest currently available.

 :) Any earlier sightings of LEWIS at Fitzgerald Swamp...

I am well be duplicating information but this is such a long thread:
I can find J LEWIS in 1867-8 Samson National Directory.
West Macquarie
LEWIS, J., Fitzgerald swamp
 
I can find Joseph LEWIS on the NSW Electoral Roll for West Macquarie 1870, Freehold, Fitzgerald Swamp and also Thomas WEAVERS, freehold, Fitzgerald Swamp. 

I can find Joseph LEWIS, senior, on the NSW ER West Macquarie 1878, Freehold, Fitzgerald Swamp,  (noting no mention on that roll of a Joseph LEWIS, junior and no mention of anyone surnamed WEAVERS either) 

 :) Any sightings of Joseph and Charles LEWIS on same official set of records

At NSW State Archives online indexes under Deceased Estates, there’s a listing for a  J LEWIS, Bathurst, date of death 29 Nov 1889, Probate Grant 22 Feb 1906 The NSW BDM online index gives further info about that death:
Joseph LEWIS, father as Charles, mother’s info not displayed, but this Joseph died in the West Macquarie district and it was registered in that district.  Ref #7235.   West Macquarie is also one of the ‘right’ districts for Fitzgerald Swamp.

Have you checked the Resources and offers board for lookups at NSW Archives? See this thread:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=703011.0

JM

Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 29 March 19 00:32 GMT (UK)
I am concerned that the 1889 death cert for your Joseph may not actually list his mother ... please check it carefully.  You see the online index does not list his mother's given name, but instead, it lists some information about where he died, as gleaned from the actual record on which the index is based.  The index is likely based on a project undertaken by experienced volunteers in the 1930s.  When preparing those indexes, when there were blanks under the usual headings, the volunteers would continue reading the registration and try to find other relevant info... hence, recording where he died.  So for example, sometimes the index will have a number ... it will turn out to be the age of the person as per the registration.  Other times it will have a surname instead of a given name ... but those volunteers worked to provide clues and those clues are still helping us all today.

.....
d.c. Joseph Lewis Senior
Additions from post
parents,  Charles Lewis and Mary Smith
marriage,  Sydney
age abt 19
list of all the children inc. Joseph 38, Mary Ann 35,Sarah 33,Charlotte 32, Elizabeth 31,Thomas 29, William 27, James 26, Susan 25,  John 23, Jane 21, Hannah 19,  Ellen 19, (twins) Hellena 16, George 13,  all living.
informant,  W Goodfellow friend Fitzgerald's Valley
cause of death apoplexy
date of burial,  1/12/1889
COE cemetery Fitzgerald's Valley
witnesses,  T Foster and W Goodfellow.

All the names of Foster, Goodfellow, Woodley are well known identities of F.V.
3 of the Lewis girls married the Woodleys.

Yes you are correct on where Fitzgerald's Valley is.

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 29 March 19 01:30 GMT (UK)
From a submitted tree
Joseph T  LEWIS born 29 July 1832, Sydney, baptised 19 August 1832, St James, Sydney was the some of Charles Frederick LEWIS 1797-1863 and Mary Ann SMITH 1815-1886.   He married Jane NOBLE in 1853.   

The tree owner has Charles Frederick LEWIS as employed Bathurst 1847-1860 and cites the NSW archives Publican Licence  as the source.

So here is the actual online guide for Publicans’ Licenses as per NSW Archives
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/publicans-licenses-guide and of course, here is the index info and search box https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/publicans-licenses-index and there’s NO mention of Charles LEWIS.  Yes, there’s a Joseph LEWIS, with licence info for Foster’s Valley and also in Bathurst township.

And yes, the submitted tree owner has the death of that Charles as the chap per the same inquest as you found for 1863.     

Re Mary Ann SMITH … they have her mother as Sarah LAKE, and they have Mary Ann as dying at Palm Beach, in 1886.  (Palm Beach, NSW) 

So there are people around who are researching the same LEWIS family as you.   This tree’s owner was last online around a week ago.

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Friday 29 March 19 01:31 GMT (UK)
I have lost a reply I sent? errrrrrr
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Friday 29 March 19 01:37 GMT (UK)
I have a list of the publicans.
Charles Frederick Lewis  was a French aristocrat.
Mary Ann Smith that died 1886 Palm Beach is the Mary Ann Mulhall
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 29 March 19 01:40 GMT (UK)
Have you considered contacting the tree owner?

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Friday 29 March 19 01:45 GMT (UK)
Add.  the Charles Frederick Lewis they have is actually  Charles Frederic Louis Dupleix  Count de Cadignan,  he was captain of the 3rd regiment of Dragoons.
I have a copy of his marriage at the British Ambassador's Chapel to Katherine Trelawny.

It would be nice to have him as an ancestor, make a change from too many convicts
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Friday 29 March 19 01:48 GMT (UK)
Yes I have contacted most of them, unfortunately when someone post an incorrect tree it is just populated.

There is one lady that is concerned as much as me and we have been trying to get the correct info. hence all these questions
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Friday 29 March 19 01:54 GMT (UK)
The lady I am working with is a descendant of the Hart line
Did you see a reply from me regarding her line of ancestors had olive skin, quiet dark actually, which is why we thought that Joseph jnr might have had a child with Sarah Unknown who possibly could have been a half caste, and this child may have been raised by my Joseph and Jane.
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 29 March 19 06:28 GMT (UK)
Charles LEWIS burial Christ Church Cathedral,  Newcastle NSW 1837

There is a C of E burial for a Charles LEWIS, 27 May 1837.  He was noted on the parish register as aged 35 years, and had arrived in NSW per the Governor Bourke.   He had died in Newcastle Hospital.   The image of the parish register entry is available ONLINE, free to search …. Second from top of this page:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/2397820076/in/album-72157604433014652/

See also NSW Resources Board for images from the Cathedral's holdings... so not just Newcastle but the parishes with the Diocese ....

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0  and scroll through to reply # 2 and then through that to Baptisms, Marriages, Burials, Christ Church Cathedral, Newcastle

ADD,  notice his profession ... Prisoner of the Crown ...
JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Friday 29 March 19 06:40 GMT (UK)
I have already checked that Charles Lewis, the Gov. Bourke arrived from W.A.
I can't find my paperwork yet?  as all the Charles's that I checked and found not to be my Charles went to the bottom of the pile.

From memory I think I checked about 9 or 10 Charles Lewis that arrived as a convict abt 1820
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Friday 29 March 19 08:13 GMT (UK)
So sorry, had to go out, forgot to log off

I can't find my paperwork for the 1837 Newcastle death, maybe I am losing my marbles?
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Friday 29 March 19 08:20 GMT (UK)
On the other hand maybe I thought he came from England on the Gov. Bourke and that's why I discounted this death?  I did find this years ago.
Still looking for details on the Gov. Bourke
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Friday 29 March 19 08:32 GMT (UK)
Just found this print out
Lewis Charles,  Gov. Bourke, Blacksmith to Capt. Dumaresq, St Hilliers  1833
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 29 March 19 08:56 GMT (UK)
Add NO,  by 1833  Dumaresq was retired to  his landed estate at Mussellbrook,  St Hilliers,  so that Blacksmith may well be the occupation of that Charles LEWIS .
............
Just found this print out b
Lewis Charles,  Gov. Bourke, Blacksmith to Capt. Dumaresq, St Hilliers  1833

I think you may find that 'Blacksmith' is the location, not an occupation   ..... I am at Nords Wharf,  I look out at Lake Macquarie from my home .... we are just south of Swansea .... Blacksmith is just north of Swansea.... Dumaresq was in this region .....  I will check further tomorrow.

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Friday 29 March 19 09:01 GMT (UK)
Oh thank you so much.
What a lovely part of the world you live in.
I am starting to get a brain fade.
will give it away for tonight
thank you
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 29 March 19 09:13 GMT (UK)
I have added as per below ...
Add NO,  by 1833  Dumaresq was retired to  his landed estate at Mussellbrook,  St Hilliers,  so that Blacksmith may well be the occupation of that Charles LEWIS .
............
Just found this print out b
Lewis Charles,  Gov. Bourke, Blacksmith to Capt. Dumaresq, St Hilliers  1833

I think you may find that 'Blacksmith' is the location, not an occupation   ..... I am at Nords Wharf,  I look out at Lake Macquarie from my home .... we are just south of Swansea .... Blacksmith is just north of Swansea.... Dumaresq was in this region .....  I will check further tomorrow.

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Saturday 30 March 19 01:19 GMT (UK)
 :)

I have located another Charles LEWIS in NSW in the 1830s...

He was a passenger on the Nimrod from Launceston (VDL) departing 12 August, arriving 19 August 1835 to Port Jackson ...  came up as steerage.

You mentioned ten or so chaps by that name ... can you please share some clues, so I can avoid duplicating your efforts...

JM

Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: perseus00 on Saturday 30 March 19 04:08 GMT (UK)
I am Sarah nee Lake, Smith, Weavers great great great grandson. I have a comprehensive family history of Sarah and all her descendants. There is good reason for the confusion. I will abridge to attempt with as much brevity as i can, hopefully not at the expense of clarity:

Sarah Lake was born at Exeter, Devon on 11 April 1791 and baptised one month later in the Presbyterian Bow Meeting House.  It was later known as the Mint or Georges Meeting House and still stood in 2009, transformed from a dissenting church meeting place to a Pub.
In her teens Sarah worked for an umbrella and parasol manufacturer at 119 Fore Street, Exeter in the old West Quarter. The umbrella and parasol business opened about 1795 and the manufactured goods were sold from the shop front of the premises.  In a crime of opportunity, she stole eleven umbrellas from her master Mr John Kelland and passed them on to her accomplices, Rebecca Searle and May Endacott, both about the same age as Sarah.  All were apprehended and committed for trial at the Exeter Quarter Sessions of the Peace.
At the age of seventeen years, on 25 April 1808, at the Exeter Guildhall, Sarah Lake was found guilty of stealing and sentenced to seven years transportation.  The case was reported in Trewman’s Exeter Flying Post on Thursday 28 April 1808.

Sarah Lake’s first and illegitimate child, Susannah, was born at Sydney, New South Wales on 10 September 1809, the father’s identity being problematic: Two possible fathers are named on different colonial records; William Watkins, and George Palmer.  The time of birth suggests that Sarah Lake, aged eighteen years, became pregnant about the first week of December 1808, before the Æolus reached Australia and some seven weeks before her arrival at Sydney on 26 January 1809. 

So:

Firstly Sarah's lineage and siblings:

Samuel
LAKE
Born
At circa 1755
   
Married in
Saint Mary Arches, Exeter, Devon, England
On 22.04.1778   

to Mary
WOLLOCOTT
Born circa 1758

Children:   
            
Elizabeth
LAKE
Bapt at Exeter
Devon, England   
On   10.02.1779
   
Mary LAKE
Bapt at Exeter
Devon, England   
On  25.03.1781

Samuel LAKE
Bapt at Exeter
Devon, England   
On  04.03.1784

Daniel LAKE
Bapt at Exeter
Devon, England   
On  12.03.1786
     
John LAKE
Bapt at Exeter
Devon, England   
On  23.03.1788
Died at Exeter
Devon, England   
Before  1793   

James LAKE
Born at Exeter
Devon, England   
On  28.10.1789
Bapt  15.11.1789
Died at Exeter
Devon, England   
On 01.03.1791   

Sarah LAKE
Born at Exeter
Devon, England   
On  11.04.1791
Bapt  09.05.1791
Died at Brilliant Street Bathurst, NSW  on 21.07.1876

John LAKE (2)
Born at Exeter
Devon, England   
On  30.12.1792
Bapt  05.02.1793
 
All children baptised at the Presbyterian Bow Meeting House, later Mint or Georges Meeting House, Exeter, Devon, England.

First relationship
of Sarah Lake
to bear issue

Unmarried

Sarah Lake became pregnant during her voyage to New South Wales aboard the all female convict transport ship Æolus    
There are two alternate names given of the father, either:

(1)   William WATKINS

      or

(2)   George PALMER


Issue:

Susannah LAKE

Born at Parramatta NSW
On 10.09.1809
Bapt in St Johns Church
At Parramatta NSW
On 01.10.1809
Died Aged 28 years
At Sydney NSW On 1837
Buried at Scots Church Sydney NSW

Second relationship
of Sarah Lake
to bear issue:

William SMITH
Born at Warwickshire
England on 1762-64
Died on 26.08.1829
At Prospect, NSW
Buried St John Church
On 29.08.1829
   
Married in St Johns Church
Parramatta, NSW
On 06.09.1811   

Issue:
   
Unmarried:         
John SMITH
(Baptized
John Lake)
Born at
Parramatta NSW
On  27.01.1811

Married:

Charlotte SMITH

Born at Parramatta NSW
On  11.12.1812
Died at St James, Sydney NSW
On 06.04.1841

Mary Ann SMITH
Born at Parramatta NSW
On  24.03.1815


Elizabeth SMITH
Born at Parramatta NSW
On   06.05.1817
      
         
(male child)
SMITH

Born at Parramatta NSW 1820


William Thomas SMITH
Born at Prospect/Parramatta NSW
On  16.10.1823

James SMITH
Born at Prospect/Parramatta NSW
On  26.02.1827
Died at Mt Panorama NSW
On 06.01.1898

William Smith was 68-69 years old when James was born. Family history has it that in his final years, William was very feeble and suffered from dementia; so it is highly likely - though only a DNA test of descendants would prove it - Jame's natural father is Thomas Weaver(s) who was indenture to Sarah at that stage. This is given further credence by:

Third relationship of Sarah Lake to bear issue:

Thomas WEAVERS

Born
At Presteigne Wales UK
On  1788     
Died at Bathurst NSW
On 06.07.1864

Married in St Phillips Church
At Sydney, NSW
On 19.09.1833   

Issue:
   
Thomas George WEAVERS

Born at Sydney NSW
On 28.10.1833
Bapt in St James Church
On 12.01.1834
Died at Trangie NSW
On 28.05.1903

I am happy to be of further assistance if any further detail or clarification is sought.


Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: perseus00 on Saturday 30 March 19 04:34 GMT (UK)
John Peisley was certainly not harboured by Thomas and Sarah Weavers. Far from it! He stole 2 horses from Thomas and was only acquitted on a technicality over the brands. Thomas was also working at the farm where Peisley shot and killed one of the brother owners in a drunken rage. He called Thomas to testify for him at his trial, so obviously there was something more than a scant association; however Thomas corroborated the crown's side of events.

Another GGG Grandmother Harriet Dover gave Peisley a drink of water on his way to the scaffold, but that's the only charitable aspect I know of our family's association with Peisley.
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Saturday 30 March 19 06:47 GMT (UK)
JM Hi

These were the nine Charles Lewis's that I found were tpt to Australia
All except the top three were discounted re dates and arrival destinations.

The 1820 Charles arrived the Neptune, he was the Baker, and was most likely ancestor.
I have a copy of his TOL which has a comment that he was blind in the right eye.

I also have a copy of the surgeons jnl from the Neptune 1820 which has a day by day account of this poor fellows problem with his eyes, and the pain he suffered especially in the right cornea.

1820 aboard the Neptune
1820                 Asia
1820                 Shipley
1823                 Commodore Hayes
1824                 Lady East
1827                 Champion
1830                 Florentia
1833                 Emperor Alexander
1842                 Duchess of North of Northumberland

Also found that paperwork for the Charles died 1837 Newcastle
He was forwarded from Swan River to Sydney per the Gov.Bourke in 1833, he was a Blacksmith,  I can't remember which tpt ship he originally arrived on could have been the Asia or the Shipley, but he was described as a metal refiner.
 
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Saturday 30 March 19 07:21 GMT (UK)
Well hello Perseus, or should I say cousin? lovely to hear from you.

Which line are you descended from?
Mary Ann Smith,  James's sister is my gg grandmother
I do have quiet a lot of info sent from James Smith's line, this lady has had a DNA done, so still investigating  possible ancestors.

Hmm I did read that about Peisley, I knew someone gave him a glass of water, couldn't remember who, after dealing with Lewis/Smith/Weavers/Galliott/ and Mulhall families I definitely need to clear my head.

I doubt very much if William was James Smith's father, he was too old and frail.
I agree that James is the son of Thomas Weavers, he was baptised the son of William.   

I have some research done by the gg grandson of William Thomas George Smith.
He has suggested that the William Smith arrived on the Indian? so I am still looking to verify who the William Smith is?  I think he came on the Perseus?
I will do some crossing checking on what I have, and see if we can fill in the dots?

Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Saturday 30 March 19 07:23 GMT (UK)
To all the wonderful helpers,  I think we should throw an internet party if we ever sort this out
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: perseus00 on Saturday 30 March 19 09:29 GMT (UK)
Hi Sasarina!

Nice to make your acquaintance too! Yes I am directly descended from your Mary Anne's younger brother (half brother) James born at Prospect/Parramatta NSW on 26.02.1827. He died aged 76 of heatstroke whilst throwing hay at Mt Panorama NSW on 06.01.1898. He had a son John who came to WA in the 1890's where our side of the family have lived ever since. John had a very big family; one of his sons Reg, my grandfather had my dad Neville then of course there is me.

I have an extensive family history undertaken by my dad's cousin who was a registrar of the courts, so able to access a lot of the usually hard to get records here and in the UK. I know quite a bit about William Smith:
William SMITH
Born at Warwickshire England
On            1762-64
Died
On 26.08.1829
At Prospect, NSW
Buried St John Church on 29.08.1829

Is there some way I can send you information as what I have is too excessive to post here. I can give you a taste though:

On 26 July 1800 at the Worcester Summer Assizes, before Justice Heath, William Smith, a thirty-seven year old native of Warwick, Thomas Stow, and Richard Stiles were convicted of burglary.  They and ten other convicted persons were sentenced to death.  This penalty applied to hundreds of offences, but execution occurred in ten per cent of such sentences.  Three of the convicted persons were executed and the rest reprieved, to be transported for life, in effect banished from Britain forever. 

William Smith and his accomplices Thomas Stow and Richard Stiles were sent onto the dilapidated prison hulk La Fortunée on Langstone Harbour.  After boarding, the prisoners were stripped and their clothes thrown overboard.  They were issued with coarse jackets and breeches,
re-chained and sent down below decks.  During the day prisoners on the La Fortunée and her sister hulk Capacity were transported to nearby Portsmouth in gangs under escort to work on the fortification of the harbour walls, as England expected to be again at war with France. 

By long boat William Smith, Stow and Stiles were sent on board the convict ship Perseus on 16 January 1802.  On arrival they and other convicts were given a hot bath and then inspected by the Surgeon and his mate, notes were taken of each man's description, his age, his medical condition and his fitness.  They each received a new issue of clothes, which consisted of one blue jacket and waistcoat, one pair of Russian duck trousers, three chequered shirts, two pairs of stockings and one pair of strong sturdy shoes, which had been provided by the British Government.  They were also provided with new bedding. 

The Perseus called into Rio and the Cape and she arrived in the Colony on 4 August, 1802, fifty-two days after the Coromandel.  Her voyage had taken one hundred and seventy-three days.  No convict died on the voyage, and only one convict was disembarked from the ship in Sydney Cove to be taken to the hospital with a case of scurvy.

William Smith was assigned to the Reverend Samuel Marsden who had arrived at Sydney Cove in March 1794 and assumed responsibility for the parish of Parramatta.

The convict William Smith applied for a Conditional Pardon, a system of early release, known as a ‘Ticket of Leave’.  It was processed and approved on 19 December 1809 by the illegal administration governing after Bligh was deposed and shortly before Lachlan Macquarie was commissioned as governor on 1 January 1810.  It released him from serving Marsden, but he was not to leave the colony.  Cruelly for William his freedom was short lived.  All pardons following the Rum Rebellion were cancelled by Macquarie and those convicts given invalid tickets of leave could make fresh applications.  William, a convict again after a few weeks freedom, was reassigned to William Lawson at South Creek near Prospect Hill. This is the Lawson of crossing the Blue Mountains fame and he had a very close association with the family thereafter for decades.

Thomas Weavers died at Bathurst in 1865, and Sarah Weavers, late Smith nee Lake, died on 21 July 1876 at Bathurst, said to be aged ninety-two years, but overstated by several years. 


This is what I have on your Mary Ann:

Charles
LEWIS

Born
At London, England
On       1797
Died
At Sydney, NSW
On       1863
Buried in
Camberdown Parish Newtown

Married in St James Cumberland Sydney NSW
On 25.03.1830   to Mary Ann SMITH Born at Parramatta NSW on 24.03.1815

Issue:

Charles LEWIS
Born at Sydney NSW
Bapt  in St James Castlereagh
C/E Church
At Cumberland
Sydney NSW on 1831

Joseph Thomas LEWIS
Born at Sydney NSW
Bapt  in St James Castlereagh
C/E Church
At Cumberland
Sydney NSW
On       1836
Died
At Fitzgeralds Valley NSW
On 29.11.1889


I note the family was resident in Fitzgerald Valley. My great grandfather John Smith married Annie Foster of Fitzgeralds Valley. I note your branch is also related to the Dovers. Thomas George Weavers married a Dover girl too as did his half/full brother James. It was quite common for siblings from one family to marry siblings from another.

I hope I haven’t inundated you! Best wishes!




Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Saturday 30 March 19 09:49 GMT (UK)
Hi Perseus did you receive my message?
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Saturday 30 March 19 09:59 GMT (UK)
Welcome to the best family history forum  :) perseus.

Have you ever been to Fitz. Valley?

I am not related to the LEWIS  or WEAVER families, but I know the area,  .... some of my ancestors settled nearby .... Wimbledon.... oh and others were at Glamis ....  the bushranger story has many similar variations in  many families ....

JM

Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Sunday 31 March 19 02:25 BST (UK)
JM,  No haven't been to the Valley,  I am in Brisbane, long drive,  I would love to go, maybe one day?
What are you ancestors surnames as my Jane and Joseph were in Wimbledon.
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Sunday 31 March 19 02:46 BST (UK)
 ;)  SMITH,  ::)  ::)  ::)  but not connected to the ones from Prospect.  Mine were in NSW earlier than the Prospect ones.   :)

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Sunday 31 March 19 02:49 BST (UK)
oh lucky you another Smith
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: perseus00 on Sunday 31 March 19 03:15 BST (UK)
Hi Sasarina,

Yes just then. Hard to access this site this morning!
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: perseus00 on Sunday 31 March 19 03:40 BST (UK)
Hi JM

Thanks for the welcome :) I am in WA so Fitzgerald Valley is a bit out of my way!  :-[ However I am closely associated with there; also Fitzgerald's Swamp as I am related to the Foster family of Fitzgerald Valley. My great great grandfather John Smith married Annie Foster there in 1877.

Most of my more recent ancestors were born at Trendon Grange, Newbridge (my grandfather). I believe its wonderful country, and I would like to spend some time there one day, especially as I now know more info on where they were born and lived.
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Wednesday 03 April 19 06:29 BST (UK)
Help,  I'm not sure what to do?  If I should start a new post for English research?

I am trying to find if Elizabeth Boyd, nee Lewis,who is the mother of Thomas Boyd, the master of the schooner The Maid of the Lake is the sister of my Charles Lewis who died on this vessel in 1863.

It does relate to all the family research previous posts, re Charles Lewis.

I went to look for bmd's in England but they were all after 1837.  Charles and Elizabeth would have been born abt 1795-1799.

Would it be better to start a new post in the English forum?
Your thoughts on this please.



Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Wednesday 03 April 19 07:08 BST (UK)
Firstly,  before you go much further,  I am concerned that you have not actually established that your Joseph LEWIS's father was the chap who died in 1863,  on that Thomas BOYD's coastal trader.

But,  re Elizabeth BOYD  ...did she migrate to NSW,   is Thomas noted on her d.c. ... are her parents named on that d.c.,  does it give where she was born,  when did her husband die,  where and when did they marry ..... 

If you start a new thread you will need to remember to mention that you are seeking info about her in case she had a brother named Charles who may have been with her son rather than his own son when he (Charles) died of a possible long  standing health issue.   You should also mention that Elizabth BOYD has been mentioned on your thread on the Australia board. 

In otherwords,  how sure are you that Elizabeth BOYD was aunt to your Joseph LEWIS ....

Just my opinion,  of course.

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Wednesday 03 April 19 10:38 BST (UK)
Re Charles Lewis,

I have research from St James COE marriages 1830.

States that Charles Lewis, aged 26years, Neptune, FS, a baker, of the Parish of Sydney, and Mary Ann Smith aged 16 years BC, a spinster, of the Parish of Sydney were married in this Church by Banns with the consent of her mother.

Also have the birth of Charles Lewis 1831 to Charles, baker, and Mary Ann Smith, this Charles died 3 days old.
1832 Joseph Lewis parents Charles Lewis and Mary Ann Smith.

I think this is good evidence that Joseph's parents were Charles, the baker, and Mary A.

Re the death of Charles Lewis, the baker, on the Maid of the Lake, I cannot verify that this is the correct Charles unless I can identify Thomas Boyd's mother, Elizabeth Lewis as being Charles's sister,  but I certainly feel it warrants investigation.
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Wednesday 03 April 19 11:38 BST (UK)
 Some questions

 :) do you have Elizabeth BOYD arriving to NSW?  If so,  under what surname, what ship ?

 :) did she marry in NSW,  if so does the register confirm she was LEWIS as  a spinster?

 :) where and when was Thomas born?

 :) did Elizabeth die in NSW ...where, when,  what info on her grave,  what info on her d.c.

 :) when Thomas married,  what info on parish register about him, his parents,  and who were the witnesses ...

 :)

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Wednesday 03 April 19 11:44 BST (UK)
William Smith Boyd, the father of Thomas and William Boyd, for some reason used his fathers surname Matthew Boyd and his mothers surname Elizabeth Smith.

ADD
When and where did this William Smith BOYD marry Elizabeth LEWIS, and if married in the colony,  what information on that marriage certificate is recorded about Elizabeth (her age, her ship of arrival/born in the colony, her status widow/spinster, bond/free, permission of the governor etc etc etc)

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Wednesday 03 April 19 11:49 BST (UK)
I have Charles Lewis D.C. unfortunately not much info. states he was a baker, age 66, born London,  no father, no mother, no marriage,  but I gather this would have been the case as the informant was the coroner, and it appears the nephew did not hang around.
Charles was buried at Camperdown Cemetery 20th Mar 1863.
I have the burial butt, which is incorrect,  Charles was described as a sailor, residence Circular Quay, age 50?
I can understand how he was described as a sailor, being the fact that he was on the Maid of The Lake,  and a sailors home was just over the road from the dead house, the age was probably hard to guess after a stroke, and we don't know long the body was kept before it was looked at? (no refrigeration) oh doesn't bear thinking about, the smell.
Very sad looks as if no one cared for this fellow?

The captain of the schooner was a Thomas Boyd, he was born in 1832 at Sydney, the son of William Smith and Elizabeth Lewis.  Thomas died Aug. 1903 at Newcastle Hospital of a stroke, he was buried 2 days later at Belmont CoE Cemetery.
There is a possibility that this Elizabeth was a sister to Charles?  but that still doesn't explain why he was in Newcastle, no Mary, no Joseph,  this is why I thought he may have reoffended and been sent to Newcastle? Mary may have married George Mulhall?  but then what happened to Joseph Lewis , Mary and Charles's son? lots of speculation?

ADD

I recall finding a Charles LEWIS in the 1850s,  he was no where near Newcastle.   Convictism had ceased in NSW in the 1840s...  The Charles LEWIS I found alive in the 1850s was in the same general area as your Joseph LEWIS ... ie the then police district of Bathurst.  I cannot find any connection between that Charles LEWIS and the one in the 1860s you have found with Thomas BOYD.

Just because that Charles LEWIS was noted as a baker, born London, does not mean that HE had arrived as a Convict to NSW back decades earlier.   He may well have arrived as a 'came free' prior to the end of NSW convictism (1840) or as garrison soldier, and stayed,  or arrived to Tasmania (VDL) or came as a migrant after say late 1820s or even arrived as recently as say 1850s with gold rushes... There is simply insufficient info on that d.c. to tie in to your Joseph. 

JM

Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Wednesday 03 April 19 11:51 BST (UK)
Here is cutting for Thomas BOYD's brother's death
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/136110532 Newcastle Herald 31 Oct 1905

NSWBDM online deaths index has
1903, Thomas BOYD parents as William and Elizabeth #10961
1905, William BOYD parents as William and Elizabeth #  13536

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Wednesday 03 April 19 22:53 BST (UK)
Please, before you continue along any consideration re Elizabeth BOYD, can you please confirm the exact details that are recorded on the death certificate for your Joseph, particularly the exact wording of the response recorded for the heading about his mother.   I continue to be concerned. 

JM

I am concerned that the 1889 death cert for your Joseph may not actually list his mother ... please check it carefully.  You see the online index does not list his mother's given name, but instead, it lists some information about where he died, as gleaned from the actual record on which the index is based. The index is likely based on a project undertaken by experienced volunteers in the 1930s.  When preparing those indexes, when there were blanks under the usual headings, the volunteers would continue reading the registration and try to find other relevant info... hence, recording where he died. So for example, sometimes the index will have a number ... it will turn out to be the age of the person as per the registration.  Other times it will have a surname instead of a given name ... but those volunteers worked to provide clues and those clues are still helping us all today.

.....
d.c. Joseph Lewis Senior
Additions from post
parents,  Charles Lewis and Mary Smith
marriage,  Sydney
age abt 19
list of all the children inc. Joseph 38, Mary Ann 35,Sarah 33,Charlotte 32, Elizabeth 31,Thomas 29, William 27, James 26, Susan 25,  John 23, Jane 21, Hannah 19,  Ellen 19, (twins) Hellena 16, George 13,  all living.
informant,  W Goodfellow friend Fitzgerald's Valley
cause of death apoplexy
date of burial,  1/12/1889
COE cemetery Fitzgerald's Valley
witnesses,  T Foster and W Goodfellow.

All the names of Foster, Goodfellow, Woodley are well known identities of F.V.
3 of the Lewis girls married the Woodleys.

Yes you are correct on where Fitzgerald's Valley is.

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Wednesday 03 April 19 23:20 BST (UK)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/136102786 23 Dec 1905 NMH

Obit to William BOYD, mentions his late brother, Thomas, and  names his living sister as Mrs Sawyers of Bathurst, aged 87 years.  Perhaps you could look for her details too ...  1905 - 87 = 1818

JM

Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Wednesday 03 April 19 23:50 BST (UK)
I have had a quick look through my own resources,  and I think Mrs SAWYERS of Bathurst may have been the wife/widow of a William SAWYER, the undertaker there.

Perhaps her given name was Louisa ... see the following cutting ...
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/111203878 24 Feb 1913 Bathurst Times.

If so, the NSW BDM has her d.c. as registered Chatswood District, and her parents as George and Elizabeth... #1393

The SMH has her burial at Gore Hill Cemetery.
 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15399569 20 Feb 1913

An obit (Keppel Street is still a significant street in Bathurst) https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/111202453 21 Feb 1913 Bathurst Times


ADD,  Louisa JENKS married William SAWYER as per NSW BDM  :)  I seem to recall reading that Elizabeth LEWIS was formerly JENKS and was nee PENDERGAST but perhaps that was only on a submitted tree.


JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Thursday 04 April 19 00:03 BST (UK)
 :)

Agh ...  a William BOYD, aged 33, a Bachelor of Sydney and the Paymaster for the 3rd Regiment of foot, married Elizabeth PENDERGAST who was aged 24 and a spinster.  They were married 14 October 1826, by Rev Richard Hill, St James C of E, Sydney.  Witnesses were George Gilling MILLS and Hannah JONES, both of George Street.
 
Marriage registered three times at NSW BDM...  :)

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Thursday 04 April 19 00:10 BST (UK)
or

This marriage ...

William BOYD, bachelor of the parish of St Philips, a labourer, signed with his X mark, and Elizabeth JENKS, also of that parish, a spinster, married 22 June 1829, by Banns, Rev William Cowper.  Witnesses:  John BOYD of Sydney and Edward McROBERTS, of Sydney...



JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Thursday 04 April 19 00:21 BST (UK)
:)

Agh ...  a William BOYD, aged 33, a Bachelor of Sydney and the Paymaster for the 3rd Regiment of foot, married Elizabeth PENDERGAST who was aged 24 and a spinster.  They were married 14 October 1826, by Rev Richard Hill, St James C of E, Sydney.  Witnesses were George Gilling MILLS and Hannah JONES, both of George Street.
 
Marriage registered three times at NSW BDM...  :)

JM

He died at Bhagulphore (which I think would be on the Sub-continent, ie where the Buffs went after finishing tour of duty here) 31 December 1828 ...
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2192261 21 April 1829 Sydney Gazette

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Thursday 04 April 19 02:03 BST (UK)
Hi JM,  I totally agree that Charles the baker could be a totally different Charles Lewis.
Everyone I have spoken to in family research has him as being Joseph's father, probably only because he was a baker, and the age fits, I really don't know?
They do not have any paperwork to verify this.
That is why I would like to either rule him in or out as being Joseph's father, instead of just speculating.
I have noted your questions and might have to invest in some more certificates.
I was looking through my Lewis family research and noticed there was a Louisa Sawyer that was a teacher at Fitz's Valley school, more coincidences?
 
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Thursday 04 April 19 02:52 BST (UK)
Yes,  there could be quite a few NSW certs ....  the official transcriptions are excellent alternative to the real deal expensive certs.

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Thursday 04 April 19 03:31 BST (UK)
Yes I will only get transcriptions.

Unfortunately I am finding with checking the Boyd family history that there doesn't seem to be any knowledge of who Elizabeth Lewis is?

I suppose it's like that with most family history though that the main line is researched with much more vigor than it's many branches?
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Thursday 04 April 19 03:50 BST (UK)
There were two Charles Lewis that were researched, one died in 1868 Liverpool, and another 1852, both these Charles were eliminated as not being the one that married Mary A. re marriages, occupations etc.
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Thursday 04 April 19 04:08 BST (UK)
Please read reply #202 and carefully check the d.c. for  Joseph  LEWIS ..... are you sure his mother is named on the Registrar General's record?  If so,  there is an obvious error in the online index and it can be adjusted IF NSWBDM is advised about it.

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Thursday 04 April 19 04:57 BST (UK)
Joseph's d.c. states father, Charles Lewis, Mother Smith,  the informant was a friend of the family.

His birth registration in 1832 states parents Charles Lewis and Mary Ann,  FHL no# 993950.

So I would guess without being too speculative that the two registrations would put his parents as Charles Lewis and Mary Ann Smith?
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Thursday 04 April 19 05:20 BST (UK)
May I suggest you consider contacting the transcription agent and ask them to follow up and organise for the NSW BDM online index for d.c. 7235/1889 for Joseph LEWIS to be updated, removing the displayed info under the heading for Mother's given name, ('died West Macquarie') and replacing it with 'Mary' .  I have found transcription agents to be very thorough and I am sure they will appreciate the importance of organising the correction to the NSW BDM without causing any hassles for the staff at NSW BDM.

ADD

Joseph's d.c. states father, Charles Lewis, Mother Smith,  the informant was a friend of the family.

His birth registration in 1832 states parents Charles Lewis and Mary Ann,  FHL no# 993950.

So I would guess without being too speculative that the two registrations would put his parents as Charles Lewis and Mary Ann Smith?

That 1832 record is better referred to as a Baptism, rather than a birth registration.  Birth registrations commence in NSW with the Registrar General's office, 1 March 1856. 

2nd ADD
Some info re NSW BDM
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=660501.0

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Thursday 04 April 19 05:35 BST (UK)
My copy of the transcription 1889/7235,  doesn't have (died West Macquarie) under the heading for the mothers name?
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Thursday 04 April 19 05:42 BST (UK)
William Smith Boyd, the father of Thomas and William Boyd, for some reason used his fathers surname Matthew Boyd and his mothers surname Elizabeth Smith.

ADD
When and where did this William Smith BOYD marry Elizabeth LEWIS, and if married in the colony,  what information on that marriage certificate is recorded about Elizabeth (her age, her ship of arrival/born in the colony, her status widow/spinster, bond/free, permission of the governor etc etc etc)

JM

 I think the following would be of interest ....  not just for the name of the deceased, but for the cemetery ... I seem to recall you mentioned that the 1863 Charles LEWIS was buried Camperdown Cemetery ... I think the following Elizabeth BOYD was also buried there....


Elizabeth BOYD of Kent Street Sydney died 5 July 1853, aged 58, buried 7 July 1853, Camperdown Cemetery.   
NSW BDM Early Church Records, 
Elizabeth BOYD  aged 58,  Line 477, Volume 39B  (C of E)  1853,   I would not anticipate ANY family history info on that ECR.  Perhaps a transcription of the headstone may hold some clues...


JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Thursday 04 April 19 05:47 BST (UK)
My copy of the transcription 1889/7235,  doesn't have (died West Macquarie) under the heading for the mothers name?

The ONLINE index does have West Macquarie, and it does NOT have Mary ...  and afterall, it is the online index that is where many of those new to family history searchings would look first  :) so if you are striving to give the best opportunities to anyone who may have Joseph as their ancestor  :) then it is sensible for the index to be updated to reflect the actual record held by NSW BDM.  :)

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: CassT on Friday 05 April 19 02:34 BST (UK)
On Family Search there is a book of the inscriptions of headstones at Camperdown
there is a record of a headstone
 
Erected by William Boyd  In Memory of his Mother Elizabeth Boyd died July 5th 1853 aged 58 yrs
also William John Boyd, son of the above William Boyd, died 1st March 1854 aged 10 days
also Ann Boyd died 4th July 1858 aged 3mths 14 days

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSKD-VHPX?i=179&cat=258542

do know if it helps,   Cass
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Friday 05 April 19 02:43 BST (UK)
Agh, Cass that is fantastic,  Well found.

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Friday 05 April 19 03:20 BST (UK)
Oh Cass, just goes to show it helps if you know where to look.
I did find a photo of the headstone it was vandalised, there were two B.N. for this site,  but I could not find a copy of the transcription.
I wonder how they did it, I took a copy of the photo and enhanced on the computer and still couldn't read it.
Thanks for finding it.
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: CassT on Friday 05 April 19 04:16 BST (UK)
I found the Camperdown Cemetery records on Family Search by chance last year.
I had also found a photo of a headstone at Camperdown on the Internet and could not read it due to the age of the stone.
One day I was reading a post on Rootschat where a Chatter gave details of a burial at Waverley Cemetery and I asked him where he found the information. He told me on Family Search.
It turned out that there are lots of information on Family Search that have not been indexed.  You search by PLACE and drill down and hopefully you find something on the location eg. Camperdown Cemetery or Waverley Cemetery and then manually search thru the films. I was lucky and found details at Waverley of the person who purchased  the plot where my G G G Grandfather is buried. So I then searched for Camperdown and solved a mystery where death certificates did not help.

Good luck

Cass
Title: Re: Elizabeth Boyd
Post by: sasarina on Tuesday 30 April 19 06:42 BST (UK)
Hello All,
I have just been having a look at William Smith Boyd again, and have only just noticed the following.
Re looking for Thomas Boyd the nephew of the Charles Lewis who died on the schooner the Maid of the Lake, in 1863. Thomas was the master of the Maid of the Lake.
I have been sent information and have now noticed that there has got to be some mix up with William Boyd.
1. William Boyd a convict arrived Aust. 1814 on the General Hewett. then goes on to mention that he married Elizabeth Jenks/Lewis  in June,1829 Sydney, and also continues to state his children.  Next what alerted me to something being amiss is that William and witness John Boyd were both illiterate.

2. Then I have William Boyd, who was a wealthy educated man, and part owner of the Almorah, a ship of the East India Co. William did run into some problems with the seizure of the Almorah, but that wouldn't make him illiterate? Elizabeth Jenks (a convict) was his second marriage, apparently she was the widow of George Jenks.  The first marriage was to a Margaret Mackean who he married in Calcutta in 1825, she died there in 1826.

Both these Williams were the same age, both born in Surry, both married Elizabeth Jenks same date, etc. same descendants. (William and Thomas Boyd), all from Swansea, NSW.
Somehow I think the information has been duplicated, except for their beginnings, one a convict the other a ships captain.

Both Thomas and William Boyd's births weren't registered, but I think there is sufficient evidence regarding Master's certificates, issued by the Marine Board, I don't have a copy of this.

What do you think?  I wonder if get some transcriptions, would it help?

Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Tuesday 30 April 19 07:37 BST (UK)
I have long believed that seeking out the primary source documents needs to always be a priority. I also have long believed that hand in hand with primary source documents are secondary sources that give context and understanding and commentary on primary sources.   So, for example, transcriptions of primary source documents can be very useful where it is known that the longhand script on primary source documents may be faded, ink bleeds, thumbed, torn etc.   

I think I have mentioned earlier in the thread about Elizabeth JENKS .. and I think that it may be possible that JENKS could be mis-read even by experienced transcribers ... as LEWIS or LEWIS could be mis-read for JENKS when either were recorded in longhand script from the penal eras in NSW.   BUT I notice that there's no Charles JENKS in NSW ... ie if Elizabeth and Charles were brother/sister, (as you are hoping) then I would expect to find Charles as JENKS at least once ! 

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Tuesday 30 April 19 10:09 BST (UK)
Elizabeth Lewis married George Jenks. George Jenks was born in Stepney and I have also found an Elizabeth Lewis born abt 1797 Stepney,  Charles Lewis was also born Stepney abt 1799. I know it is a common name, but still worth investigating for a possible sister to Charles.

George Jenks was supposed to have died at sea, but I am not sure how to find his death yet.

I think I may get a few transcriptions for the Boyds hopefully they may give up some clues.

I will get what transcriptions I can, maybe the marriage of William Boyd and Elizabeth Jenks might tell me if she was a widow. Elizabeth Lewis was a spinster when she married George Jenks, she also was literate so that's a start.
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Tuesday 30 April 19 10:17 BST (UK)
1826, October 14
William BOYD esq, a bachelor, 33 years, paymaster 3rd Regiment, in Sydney
Elizabeth PENDERGAST, spinster, 24, Sydney. 
St James C of E, by Richard Hill.
Witnesses: George Gilling MILLS, George St Sydney
Hannah JONES, George St Sydney

Elizabeth was born in the colony.

……………………………………………….

1829, June 22
William BOYD, bachelor, of Sydney
Elizabeth JENKS spinster of Sydney
St Philips C of E by Rev William COWPER
Witnesses: John BOYD, of Sydney and Edward McROBERTS of Sydney.

…………………………………..

So two chaps in Sydney by the name of William BOYD, one married in 1826, and the other in 1829. 

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Tuesday 30 April 19 10:29 BST (UK)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/31757916 The Monitor 20 Oct 1826
By special License on Saturday last, at St James's Church by the Rev R Hill, Captain Boyd, Paymaster of the 3d Regt Buffs, to Miss Pendergast of George Street


https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2192261 Sydney Gazette 21 April 1829
Died on the 31st December last at Bhagulphore, suddenly, Captain William Boyd, paymaster of HM 3d regiment of Buffs.

Were there any babies to that couple?  And, where was that Mrs Wm BOYD 1826-1829

 

JM

Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Tuesday 30 April 19 10:34 BST (UK)
He died intestate ... but must have had family and property in NSW ....

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2194150  Sydney Gaz  22 Dec 1829
NSW Supreme Court notice, Eccs Jurisdiction ... Admon on his Goods, Chattels, Rights, Credits and Effects...

You need to consider this chap, to eliminate the various William BOYDs you will come across ... ie children of this William and Elizabeth BOYD .... could be mistaken for children of the other William and Elizabeth BOYD .... from birth to death and even by family history buffs in 21st century.


JM


Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Tuesday 30 April 19 10:38 BST (UK)
Three entries for the Probate ...
1831, entry no. 7, and 8,  and 9.  William BOYD. 

https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/probate-records-supplementary-index

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Tuesday 30 April 19 10:56 BST (UK)
I don't know who that Elizabeth Pendergast is,  I did not check on her she did appear on the BDA.

On all the docs. I have the marriage is dated 1829. but one is a convict the other is the master mariner.
This is what is confusing, the marriage to Elizabeth Jenks in 1829 the William Boyd was illiterate. so was his brother John who was the witness, this marriage could be the convict.
But then as previously posted both the William Boyds have the same history, except for their early life.
William Snr. died on 12th Mar.1850 at Glenrock (a property) and was buried on the property, the government acquired the land for a railway, a few graves were relocated, but Williams grave could not be found, so mention is that his remains are still there.
Elizabeth moved back to Kent St where she lived until her death in July, 1853, she was buried in Camperdown Cemetery.
Thomas Boyd, son of William and Elizabeth married Eliza Freeman in 1859, he gave his mothers name as Elizabeth Lewis.


Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Tuesday 30 April 19 11:00 BST (UK)
I will check up next weekend if I get a chance, but I am concerned about the Camperdown Cemetery sightings ...  I think that Elizabeth (BOYD)  could be part of a family at Glebe, and NOT connected to the Charles LEWIS who died on Lake Macquarie.   I may be relying on grey cells, so I will check and double check ....

JM

Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: sasarina on Tuesday 30 April 19 11:03 BST (UK)
There is also a William Boyd and an Elizabeth Janks marriage on the BDM's for NSW,  in 1829, not sure if it is a different marriage or a duplication of Elizabeth Jenks?
I'm thinking I need to invest in some transcriptions as it gets a little complicated.
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Tuesday 30 April 19 11:05 BST (UK)
I think you need to keep Elizabeth Pendergast in the picture,  she would likely have had a child, perhaps a son, and likely named him after her husband ...  another William BOYD to keep in mind, in Sydney and around the same age as Elizabeth JENKS possible pre nuptial sons, Thomas and William

JM
Title: Re: Sarah Smith
Post by: majm on Tuesday 30 April 19 11:07 BST (UK)
If the NSW BDM has two BOYD JENKS entries in 1829, that is likely the ONE m.c. but one will be the transmitted copy of the other.  Likely in different volumes etc ...  I think BDA has all the info off the St James C of E and the St Phillips C of E in the NSW Chaplain eras.... so from the beginning until mid 1850s ...

JM