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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Peety on Friday 21 December 18 11:05 GMT (UK)
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The attached photo is supposedly the genetic parents of my great grandmother Elsie May Beddows born 7th June 1903, Lichfield, Staffordshire and died 20th August 1969, Sutton Coldfield, Birmingham. Elsie's married name was Haynes, her adoptive parents Beddows and her genetic parents Robinson (unfortunately I do not have Elsie's birth certificate)
I have been told the gentleman in the photo is a Corporal either in the Royal Artillery or Royal Engineers and a bandsman with the surname Robinson.
Can anyone confirm and give me any additional information
Many thanks
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Preliminary thoughts until the experts arrive.
Not a corporal. I would expect stripes on the upper right arm. The two stripes (inverted chevrons?) on the lower left sleeve indicate good conduct. I believe that the first stripe was issued after two years and the second after six years service.
Medals - very indistinct, but seem to be campaign medals (with the one on the right having at least one bar. Probably the Queen's South Africa Medal but I can't be certain.
Belt buckle - it just doesn't look right for Royal Artillery. This man's buckle is circular - possibly a laurel wreath with inset crown surrounding an emblem or monarch's initials, but my imaging software isn't good enough to improve the definition.
Epaulettes - consistent with a bandsman.
Sorry I can't be more definite.
Philip
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Overlap with Philip who has similar thoughts.
He is certainly a bandsman, his right sleeve has the musician badge. He is not a corporal however. The two inverted stripes on the lower sleeve are good conduct badges, at that time awarded for at least 6 years service.
The regiment is less clear. Although the collar badge looks like the grenade badge of both RA and RE, I believe both had more ornate cuff embellishments (austrian knots) so this may well be a fusilier regiment (Google fusiliers bandsman images for comparison).
Given the date, the medals may well be Boer War but rather too many Robinsons to check out. Do you have a first name and/or year of birth?
MaxD
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Probably taken 1904-08 so after the birth.
Could Elsie have been registered under her mother's maiden name?
These are the "Elsie May" births June Q 1903 Lichfield.
TOLLEY Elsie May
Lichfield/6b/498
DERRY Elsie May
Lichfield 6b/492
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Many thanks for all your responses, I'm afraid I cannot provide any more information.
With reference to your comment Jim I see there are marriages for John Robinson and Julia Derry, June quarter 1893, Lichfield and John William Robinson and Eliza Derry, June quarter 1899, Lichfield !
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The left hand Medal I believe to be Queen's South Africa medal, it looks to have five bars. The right hand Medal with one bar is the King's South Africa Medal, the ribbon is fairly clear.
I agree the Engineers sleeve had the Austrian knot, and the white piping down the front is also wrong for the Engineers.
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I am guessing that Elsie married Arthur J. HAYNES in Lichfield in 1926 and they are living in Lichfield in 1933. If that is correct then her date of birth is given as the 3 July 1903 not June but birth dates are often slightly wrong in the 1839 Register, her name on marriage was BEDDOW without the S.
Then there is a birth of Elsie May BEDDOW, again with no S in Lichfield in 1904, not 3 in the June Qtr, Vol 06B page 513, mother's maiden name WRIGHT.
It looks to me as if the name Robinson is a red herring.
Addendum
Possible name for man in photo Charles BEDDOW Royal Welsh Fusiliers, worth looking further at him.
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He is not RWF as the cuffs are not correct for an infantry soldier.
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He is not RWF as the cuffs are not correct for an infantry soldier.
I am going by this RWF Museum image.
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Also with round cuffs and a goat.
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Postscript:
I now have the birth certificate for Elsie May, she was born June 3rd 1903, Wade Street, Lichfield, Staffordshire to a Alice James a domestic servant but no father given. This ties in nicely with Elsie's marriage certificate to Arthur Haynes on October 19th 1926 where her full name is given as Elsie May James Beddow : so showing her mothers surname, James and adoptive parents name Beddow.
This does however throw up more questions about who the people are in the original photo I posted. Others have now concluded that the Regiment was the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers
The story I was always told by my grandmother was that the man in the photo is Elsie's real father and was a man named Robinson. I have tried to find a Bandsman Robinson of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers but with no joy. Is the name Robinson a complete red herring as already suggested? Also why would Elsie have a photo of what I am assuming is her genetic father and his wife, would the wife not have been cut off. Also what would place a man from the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers in Staffordshire during 1902 ( at the point of a Elsie's conception? Any ideas please?
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Sorry to be difficult but I cannot see anything to identify his regt as the Inniskillings, What was the basis of the attribution?
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Alan I tried to include a photo with my post but it didn't seem to let me. I took a magnified view of the collar badge which did look like the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers. I will try again
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The collar badge is the universal grenade - the universal title is the clue that it was used by several regts including RA and several fusiliers. There is nothing specifically Irish about the soldiers so yiu may be chasing a false lead looking for an Inniskilling bandsman,
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Are you able to shed any light on the Regiment Alan?
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The fusiliers grenade is universal but the collar piping is the key to identifying it. The piping on the top line of the collar would be right for an Inniskilling where as Welsh or Royal Fusilier had piping on the bottom of the collar.
The Lancashire Fusiliers had light coloured collars so you can rule them out as well.
The 1st Battalion of the RIF were in the Boer war and in Ireland from 1902-7 where as the 2nd were in SA in 1901 a swell and in Egypt from 1902.
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This is a list of Robinsons in the inniskillings who were awarded the SA medal:
Robinson Arthur 2nd Battalion
Source: QSA and KSA medal rolls
Robinson C E 1st Battalion
Source: QSA and KSA medal rolls
Robinson C T 1st Battalion
Source: QSA and KSA medal rolls
Robinson F 111 Sergeant 1st Btn. Wounded at Colenso. 15 Dec 1899.
Source: Natal Field Force Casualty Roll, page 97 line 3
Robinson Francis 2nd Battalion
Source: QSA and KSA medal rolls
Robinson Frank 2nd Battalion
Source: QSA and KSA medal rolls
Robinson H 1st Battalion
Source: QSA and KSA medal rolls
Robinson J 1st Battalion
Source: QSA and KSA medal rolls
Robinson James 2nd Battalion
Source: QSA and KSA medal rolls
Robinson Joseph 2nd Battalion
Source: QSA and KSA medal rolls
son K 5686 Private Slightly wounded. Rooival, 11 April 1902
1st Battalion. 11 Ml
Source: South African Field Force Casualty Roll
Robinson K 1st Battalion
Source: QSA and KSA medal rolls
Robinson Richard 2nd Battalion
Source: QSA and KSA medal rolls
Robinson Richard T 2nd Battalion
Source: QSA and KSA medal rolls
Robinson S 4330 Private 1st Btn. Wounded at Natal. 23 Feb 1900.
Source: Natal Field Force Casualty Roll, page 101 line 25
Robinson S P B 1st Battalion
Source: QSA and KSA medal rolls
Robinson Samuel 2nd Battalion
Source: QSA and KSA medal rolls
Robinson T 1st Battalion
Source: QSA and KSA medal rolls
Robinson W 1st Battalion
Source: QSA and KSA medal rolls
Robinson William 2nd Battalion
Source: QSA and KSA medal rolls
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Alan many thanks for all that information and forgive my ignorance but are you saying it could be the Inniskilling Fusiliers?
This is pure conjecture but could he possibly be North Staffordshire Regiment, I believe they returned to the UK in 1902 and were based at Whittington Barracks which is just 3 miles from Lichfield where Elsie was born ?
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If he was a Stafford then he would have the Staff knot collar badge.
The collar is a Fusiliers and the collar time does match the Inniskillings collar piping so it's a contender. Whether he is the father is another question for as you say there is no Inniskilling connection and if he was 1st battalion then he would be in based in Ireland when the photo was taken.