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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: EBrand on Saturday 22 December 18 07:05 GMT (UK)
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Hey,
I'm back again with another ancestor this time that has been annoying me a little bit.
My great-great grandmother, Annie Elizabeth Anderson (born Lombardini).
There is a Civil Registration for her birth, and I would love to obtain the original certificate and I'm willing to fork out money for it, but I don't know where to go to find it. I've made various searches on BMD databases for a Lombardini/Lumberding but cannot find anything.
Annie was born in Huddersfield, 1867 to then single (we believe) Fanny Piercy Lombardini. A year later, Fanny married a man by the name of Ephraim Jackson.
In all censuses until her marriage, Annie is noted as Annie Lombardini or Lumberding etc.
In her first marriage in 1892, Elizabeth Lumberding (my Annie) marries a Harrison Illingworth. Points to note is that she uses her mother's maiden name and does not mention a father. This is the same in her second marriage to Frederick Anderson in 1898.
For some reason, there is a reference to a 'George Cuttle' passed down through our family as the father of Annie Elizabeth.
I have no doubts that Annie is illegitimate, I would just love a lead that could help me possibly find this mysterious father. It's a difficult task and I've looked and looked, but perhaps a new pair of eyes may aid my quest.
Even if I just find a record of her birth certificate, would be awesome.
Thank you for reading, Rootschat family.
Seasons greetings!
EBrand.
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On freebmd all with same reference are
Births Dec 1867 (>99%)
Binns Frank Huddersfield 9a 297
Bramhall Oliver Huddersfield 9a 297
Cuttle Ann Elizabeth Huddersfield 9a 297
Kimmans Martha Ann Huddersfield 9a 297
Lawton Charles Edward Huddersfield 9a 297
Lombardini Ann Elizabeth Huddersfield 9a 297
Priestley Hannah Huddersfield 9a 297
Smithson George Henry Huddersfield 9a 297
Sutcliffe Ellen Ann Huddersfield 9a 297
Taylor Betsy Ann Huddersfield 9a 297
Whittell Thomas Kaye Huddersfield 9a 297
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Gro has
CUTTLE, ANN ELIZABETH - Order
GRO Reference: 1867 D Quarter in HUDDERSFIELD Volume 09A Page 297
Suggests mothers surname is Cuttle
Added, I don’t see it as Lombardini on GRO at all, which seems strange
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Gro has
CUTTLE, ANN ELIZABETH - Order
GRO Reference: 1867 D Quarter in HUDDERSFIELD Volume 09A Page 297
Suggests mothers surname is Cuttle
Added, I don’t see it as Lombardini on GRO at all, which seems strange
That's strange, as I can't find a marriage certificate for Fanny to a CUTTLE, and she goes by Lombardini (which is definitely her maiden name) until she marries Ephraim Jackson in 1868.
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Is there a possibility at all that these two entries were for the same person, or not at all?
Perhaps there was a mix up in my family where someone else did some research and found the CUTTLE entrance instead of the LOMBARDINI entrance.
Is there a place where I can purchase Annie Elizabeth LOMBARDINI's original certificate?
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I just had a search on the GRO's official site and couldn't find any entrance for a Lombardini in Huddersfield at that time. Unfortunately they don't let you search by volume number/page. I did search for Cuttle and that particular record surfaced.
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Someone more knowledgable may correct me but as I understand it
A. It is entirely possible that they are two entries for one and the same person.
B. As the Lombardini one doesn't show on the GRO site, I would email them quoting the reference details for both the Cuttle and Lombardini entries explaining you want the one that has Fanny as the mother. (I'll look again for you though just to make sure)
C. I probably wouldn't be able to resist buying the Cuttle one anyway as it is right there and PDF easily purchased. www.GRO.gov.uk (PDF is cheapest way to purchase, - ask for that for B too)
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Gro has
CUTTLE, ANN ELIZABETH - Order
GRO Reference: 1867 D Quarter in HUDDERSFIELD Volume 09A Page 297
Suggests mothers surname is Cuttle
Added, I don’t see it as Lombardini on GRO at all, which seems strange
I see now what you meant.
Perhaps because they were the same person and they just got rid of the LOMBARDINI one?
It just seems so strange.
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Someone more knowledgable may correct me but as I understand it
A. It is entirely possible that they are two entries for one and the same person.
B. As the Lombardini one doesn't show on the GRO site, I would email them quoting the reference details for both the Cuttle and Lombardini entries explaining you want the one that has Fanny as the mother. (I'll look again for you though just to make sure)
C. I probably wouldn't be able to resist buying the Cuttle one anyway as it is right there and PDF easily purchased. www.GRO.gov.uk (PDF is cheapest way to purchase, - ask for that for B too)
Thank you so much for your help!
I just sent a query to GRO so hopefully they respond with more information.
I'm gonna have to buy the CUTTLE one, I think.
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i can't find Lombardini, or any variation I have managed to dredge up, on GRO
I've looked at the actual page with the LOMBARDINI entry, and the entries either side of her show up on GRO, so it's not that they have missed the page entirely.
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i can't find Lombardini, or any variation I have managed to dredge up, on GRO
I've looked at the actual page with the LOMBARDINI entry, and the entries either side of her show up on GRO, so it's not that they have missed the page entirely.
Okay, I’ll see what they have to say. Thanks once again for your help!
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Let us know how you get on
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Dec Q 1867, findmypast
It's indexed as Lombardlen. I'll report the error.
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The other entry...
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Am I right in thinking that for an illegitimate birth the father has to be present for him to be named?
If so could his name have been added at a later date but in the same quarter and then added as a separate entry
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I don't know if you've run a search in the newspapers but Fanny Lombardini gets a few mentions in The Huddersfield Chronicle of 27 December 1862, in a case about seduction! I've only skim read it, but a witness (a girl) mentions that she knew Fanny, and later mentions say that Fanny was "of light character", "disreputable" and that her and a friend were "such wicked girls"!! I can PM you the article if you don't have access. Then in January 1863 the following appeared -see attachment
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You might be interested in this too.
By the way I checked my baptism transcriptions for Honley and Almondbury, but no luck. Huddersfield FHS might be able to run a search for Annie Elizabeth's baptism for a small fee. I only have the transcriptions I've mentioned.
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It's late and I'm a little woozy from pain killers, but my understanding is that for a birth registration where the parents are not married to each other but both are named, the GRO records the entry only once, in the surname of the father. If the mother has never married then technically she does not have a 'maiden' surname, so her unmarried surname is not recorded at all, hence the - in the mmn field.
FreeBMD however, records the entry under both surnames.
So in this instance the GRO would only record the registration as Cuttle (father's surname) with no mmn noted.
Am I right in thinking that for an illegitimate birth the father has to be present for him to be named?
Only after 1874.
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Dec Q 1867, findmypast
It's indexed as Lombardlen. I'll report the error.
I had a feeling it could have been misspelled. But I just did a search of the GRO and nothing for Lombardlen there either.
I had seen the article you posted a few months ago, where Mary (who was Fanny's aunty on her father's side) basically disowned her. I don't have access to the original case so I had no idea why such things were being said about her! If you could send me a photo of the original case/article, that would be absolutely lovely, thank you!
And thank you for the info, I'll get onto contacting Huddersfield FHS immediately!
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You might be interested in this too.
By the way I checked my baptism transcriptions for Honley and Almondbury, but no luck. Huddersfield FHS might be able to run a search for Annie Elizabeth's baptism for a small fee. I only have the transcriptions I've mentioned.
I'm also not entirely sure but perhaps Annie Elizabeth wasn't baptised? Her grandfather was Italian and so there is a chance the family was Catholic. I don't know too much about this side as my grandma and great-grandma renounced all religion. Am I right in the fact that in Catholicism, illegitimate children could not be baptised?
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. :)
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It's late and I'm a little woozy from pain killers, but my understanding is that for a birth registration where the parents are not married to each other but both are named, the GRO records the entry only once, in the surname of the father. If the mother has never married then technically she does not have a 'maiden' surname, so her unmarried surname is not recorded at all, hence the - in the mmn field.
FreeBMD however, records the entry under both surnames.
So in this instance the GRO would only record the registration as Cuttle (father's surname) with no mmn noted.
Am I right in thinking that for an illegitimate birth the father has to be present for him to be named?
Only after 1874.
Interesting!
Thanks for this knowledge. I'm going to get on and order the Cuttle certificate right now.
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Sent you a PM
I can't help with the Catholic thing I'm afraid but I'd be interested to know the answer.
Please let us know how you get on with the Cuttle certificate.
I am sure I once read that there is more than one set of typed BMD indexes, so the possibility of errors creeping in is there. Will have to look into this. It will have been in one of my old books, which I recently got rid of as they were so out of date...e.g. go to St. Catherine's House in person for the indexes and ordering! And no computers either!! Eeh them were t' days eh!
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...love Google...just found this:
"the GRO's indexes are secondary indexes" not "the original indexes held by local register offices", hence transcription errors can occur.
To find your certificates, it may be better to contact the local register offices where you think the events were originally registered.
Helpful advice I think.
There's also a link here which is worth a read:
https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/
I did once contact Sheffield RO about an entry so I could order the correct certificate. I had to tell them the name of the mother (illegitimate child) and then they sent me the correct reference for the birth certificate I wanted - there were a lot to choose from, so this ensured I got the right one and didn't waste my money.
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...love Google...just found this:
"the GRO's indexes are secondary indexes" not "the original indexes held by local register offices", hence transcription errors can occur.
To find your certificates, it may be better to contact the local register offices where you think the events were originally registered.
Helpful advice I think.
There's also a link here which is worth a read:
https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/
I did once contact Sheffield RO about an entry so I could order the correct certificate. I had to tell them the name of the mother (illegitimate child) and then they sent me the correct reference for the birth certificate I wanted - there were a lot to choose from, so this ensured I got the right one and didn't waste my money.
Okay no worries! I've already ordered the Cuttle one so I'll see what that says and hopefully it'll give me some more clues.
Thank you!
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Hi remember reading the about the court case, it ended with the jury not being able to agree and one of the jurors pinned another against the door and the aftermath went on for weeks until a retrial.The report trial might give you a few more clues, if not it is a good read anyway.
John
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Hi remember reading the about the court case, it ended with the jury not being able to agree and one of the jurors pinned another against the door and the aftermath went on for weeks until a retrial.The report trial might give you a few more clues, if not it is a good read anyway.
John
Thanks! It sure sounds interesting haha
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"the GRO's indexes are secondary indexes" not "the original indexes held by local register offices", hence transcription errors can occur.
I believe this has been explained many times before. The online GRO indexes have nothing to do with the old indexes. They are currently indexing from the original documents and any surname in the mother's column will not be indexed if it cannot be determined that the name is her maiden surname. The name must be preceded by the word 'formerly' to be indexed.
The old GRO indexes were different in that they indexed under both surnames if the father was named and mother's name was not preceded by the word 'formerly'. These are the indexes that are used by FreeBMD and this is why you see Ann Elizabeth's birth indexed under both names on FreeBMD but not in the GRO indexes.
B. As the Lombardini one doesn't show on the GRO site, I would email them quoting the reference details for both the Cuttle and Lombardini entries explaining you want the one that has Fanny as the mother. (I'll look again for you though just to make sure)
The correct way to query an entry is to use the link at the bottom of the search page which says:
Noticed a problem with a record in the GRO Indexes?
You can report it to GRO and help us improve the quality of information available.
In this case the most likely answer will be 'Investigated – No amendment required'.
Debra :D
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Thank you so much for clearing that up Dundee!
I will update once I’ve received her birth certificate- est. Jan 2
Happy Holidays everybody!
:)
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Yes, thanks Dundee, I'm afraid my knowledge is stuck years back! Updates like this seem to pass me by. I used to subscribe to Family Tree Magazine but no longer.
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Hey all!
I'm not sure how to post photos on here, but I just received the birth certificate for Ann Elizabeth Cuttle!
What a great New Year's present!
So, I guess I'll just post the details of the certificate.
Date: 4 Sept 1867
Place: Duke Street, Huddersfield, Yorkshire.
Name and Surname of Father: George Cuttle
Name and Maiden Surname of Mother: Fanny Lombardini
Rank or Profession of father: Wool Dyer.
Informant: Fanny Lombardini (Mother) of Duke Street.
My mysterious George Cuttle is the father!
Seeing as I have only a name and an occupation to go on, it would be awesome if I could get some help narrowing down my search for my ancestor and his origins!
Happy New Year everybody!
EBrand
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So exciting!
This George has Huddersfield connections and is a Dyer Pattern so one contender I think
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7ZS-CDR
That one was born 31 Dec 1845 and baptised Chapel Allerton, parents Joshua and Jane of Rastrick as
George Smith CUTTLE
CUTTLE, GEORGE SMITH SMITH
GRO Reference: 1846 M Quarter in HALIFAX Volume 22 Page 291
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I hope it is him because he has a trail to the USA
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-ZCSQ-M4?i=301&cc=1840474
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There is also George Cuttle b c 1842/3 Holmfrith but I think less likely becaus in 1860 he joined the Royal Marines and has a career with them, so wouldn’t have Wool Dyer as occupation in 1867
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George Smith CUTTLE the Dyer, was still a Dyer at death. April 2 1918. Philadelphia. Image of undertakers record is on FindMyPast
Wife Jennie NEILSON
1910 census says he went to USA in 1870, so that fits
In 1908 he and Jennie went to England on a trip, so that might be why there was some knowledge of him in family lore?
But..not to be confused writh the George S Cuttle of New Jersey, also a Dyer, but also later a farmer, but of German origins. . There’s is a German one, but our man does appear to have had a farm. An online tree has a very long note regarding it.
See reply 27
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George Smith CUTTLE the Dyer, was still a Dyer at death. April 2 1918. Philadelphia. Image of undertakers record is on FindMyPast
Wife Jennie NEILSON
1910 census says he went to USA in 1870, so that fits
In 1908 he and Jennie went to England on a trip, so that might be why there was some knowledge of him in family lore?
Wow that's awesome! Thanks so much for your help!
This would explain why my family knows little about him, as his daughter's family moved to Australia (where I am now).
And it also explains why I couldn't find him anywhere in England after the birth of his daughter.
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Assuming that is him, better wait and see what the others think!
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Wow, great to solve a mystery. But as usual, answer one question, pose several more! I'll have a look for you if I get time. Thanks for sharing!
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George Smith CUTTLE the Dyer, was still a Dyer at death. April 2 1918. Philadelphia. Image of undertakers record is on FindMyPast
Wife Jennie NEILSON
1910 census says he went to USA in 1870, so that fits
In 1908 he and Jennie went to England on a trip, so that might be why there was some knowledge of him in family lore?
But..not to be confused writh the George S Cuttle of New Jersey, also a Dyer, but also later a farmer, but of German origins. . There’s is a German one, but our man does appear to have had a farm. An online tree has a very long note regarding it.
My notes in red - from a tree on Ancestry OP is unable to view.
Cuttle, Disbrow Farmhouse, 259 Chandler Road, Andover Historical Preservation
1850s - present
Andover, MA
259 Chandler Road - Cuttle - Disbrow house This property was once owned by J. T. G. McCurdy who sold the land with buildings to Daniel White on May 9, 1860. White then sold to Sarah F. Hanson of Lawrence, MA for $3820. John M. Hanson acquired the farm on Sept. 19, 1870. Both John M and Sylvester W. Hanson then held the property jointly for about seven years before selling to Martha A. Bennett on June 1, 1877 for $3600. Martha Bennett held ownership for five years then sold to John H. Brown for $3500. on Aug. 10, 1882. Brown then sells to Jennie Cuttle for $3800. Cuttle and related family would remain owners of the farm for the next 100 years. Jennie (Neilson) Cuttle was born in August 1851 in Connecticut, daughter of John & Mary Neilson, of Scotland. Her family came to America and settled in Philadelphia, PA. Jennie Neilson married, about 1871, to George Smith Cuttle, born in Rastrick, Yorkshire, England on Dec. 31, 1846. 1845 George was the son of Joshua & Mary because this is what it says on death reg, but actually mother was Jane)(Smith) Cuttle. George immigrated to America in 1870. 1868 He was a Dyer in a wool mill, the same profession of his father. They had seven children of which four survived to adulthood; Infant Cuttle b. Jan. 1873 d. Jan 21, 1873 in Philadelphia, Joshua b. Nov. 29, 1876, Mary (May) Harper b. Jan. 1879 in Lowell, MA, Walter Hamilet b. Jan. 19, 1880, Susan Jane b. Dec. 10, 1884 – d. Nov. 6, 1889 in Andover, and William M. b. Aug. 1889 in Andover. In 1880 the Cuttle family was living in Dracut then moved to Lawrence before purchasing the farm on Chandler Road in August 1882. The homestead lot comprised about 26 acres. Husband George acquired three additional parcels of land; two from Susan E. Abbott, in 1898 and 1901 increasing the farm to 80.4 acres. The farm included all the land within the Chandler Rd., River Rd. and Brundrett Ave triangle. Additional land across the street from the homestead on Chandler Rd, 10 acres on the east side of Brundrett and a small 2 acre parcel on the north side of River Rd. By 1910 George & Jennie had moved to Union, NJ with their sons. Their daughter Mary (or May), had married George W. Disbrow, b. Jan. 17, 1877 in So. Amboy, NJ, son of Isaiah & Ellen (Applegate) Disbrow. Mary & George Disbrow remained on the Andover farm. They had three children; daughter Myrtle b. 1904 in NJ, Walter Applegate b. Oct. 28, 1906 in Andover and Herbert Earl b. Apr. 10, 1909. George S. Cuttle died on Apr.2, 1918 in Philadelphia and was interred at Ivy Hill Cemetery in Philadelphia. Jennie N. Cuttle became sole heir to her husband’s estate and the farm in Andover. On her death on Nov. 3, 1928 her four children inherit the estate. Daughter Mary H. Disbrow purchased the Andover farm from her brothers for $3500. in July 1930. Sadly Mary H. died four years later on Sept. 28, 1934. Her estate went to husband George and her children. Walter & Herbert quit claimed the property to their father on Oct. 15, 1935. George died on Oct. 30, 1944 and the children become sole heirs to the property. Daughter Myrtle married Robert McQuestion but died on July 16, 1943 at age 39y. Her children quit claimed the property to their uncles Walter & Herbert Disbrow on Nov. 28, 1949. Walter and Herbert shared the property with their families. Walter Applegate Disbrow married Annie Gunter b. Oct. 11, 1912 in Methuen, daughter of George & Emma (Atack) Gunter. Herbert Earl Disbrow married Alice Pickles, b. Nov. 9, 1909, daughter of Joseph Henry & Lilly (Hopkinson) Pickles. Herbert died in 1960. Wife Alice later re-married to an Edmunds. Alice died in 1977. Walter & Annie Disbrow then held ownership of the farm. The farm land on the homestead lot was parceled off into fifteen house lots along Brundrett Ave in 1978. Walter died on June 26, 1982. His wife Annie then sold the remaining Disbrow farm to McIassac Associates, Inc. on Jan. 1, 1988. Daughters of Herbert, Shirley (Disbrow) Hathaway and Lilly (Disbrow) Townsend also sell their share of the property to Arthur W. Gauthier on Dec. 23, 1987 which included the Disbrow homestead. The former Cuttle-Disbrow home was razed about 1989 and replaced with the current home in 1990. The Disbrow family and some of the Cuttle family share a family plot in the West Parish Garden Cemetery, in Andover, MA. James C. & Faith E. Dudley purchased the new home on the former site of the farmhouse on Aug. 17, 1990. Dudley then sold to Harold N. & Marcy H. Fox on Cot. 19, 1993.
CarolineRuble
CarolineRuble originally
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Yorkshire, England, Quarter Session Records, 1637-1914 On Ancestry features George Smith CUTTLE appealing a previous finding that he was the father of the child of Ellen HAMMONDS (he lost the appeal)
The first case heard 7 Feb 1866 Petty Sessions Saddleworth at Upper Mill, and the second hearing at Pontefract sessions on 9th April.
I feel there ought to be a newspaper report of at least one of these hearings but I cannot see it. Can anyone else?
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Thank you for all that info!
It’s awesome as I don’t have a WW subscription!
I’ll see what I can find on FamilySearch too!
And I’m also shocked about the other child case. I wonder why he lost the appeal.
Thanks everyone for your help so far! I really appreciate it!
EBrand