RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Roy G on Monday 24 December 18 08:59 GMT (UK)
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Hi
The marriage of the late Barbara J Hilton gives her a birth in West Derby (Liverpool) in 1927 and lists her father as Dr Charles Hilton, medical practitioner. What is known however, is that Charles' family took over caring for her because she was born illegitimate. I have no idea whether there was an official adoption procedure, or if this was something the family did unofficially.
I only have a short copy of Barbara J Hilton's 1927 birth cert, but the GRO reference confirms that her mother's surname was also Hilton, so am presuming that her mother was another member of Charles' Hilton family. Although I am applying for a copy the full certificate, I would like to gather in advance, any further info that anyone has on Dr. Charles and his family of Liverpool Hiltons. Anything, even simple addresses from Kellys' directories or names from electoral roles would certainly be helpful.
Thanks in advance
Roy G
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There is no Dr Charles Hilton in the UK Medical Registers for 1923, 1927 or 1931.
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Hello
In the UK Medical Directory for 1895
Charles Hilton
90 Buckingham Road Brighton
L.D.S.F.P.S. Glasgow 1890 (Kings College)
Dental Surgeon
Brighton, Hove and Preston Infirmary
This was the only Charles Hilton that I could see
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It seems that there was no Dr Charles Hilton registered in the UK at that time.
Does the marriage record really state the place of birth?
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The West Derby birth reg doesn’t show a middle initial. Are you sure it corresponds to the marriage you have found?
Added: perhaps you have inherited the certificate (short copy) so that’s how you know it’s for the right person?
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Lots of questions I’m afraid.
Where, when and to whom did Barbara marry? The Dr Hilton who brought her up where did he live?
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Have you found her in the 1939 register?
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Hi
As you may have gathered, I am trying to walk that difficult line, where in order to retain some sort of privacy for the descendants, I am obliged to withhold (or not publish) too much of the more recent information.
I can write that the late Barbara became a nurse and married in Folkstone in 1952 under what is presumed to have been her birth name. The short birth certificate which she must have applied for herself in 1988 verifies her basic birth details which were in the West Derby district. Searches on FreeMD (Marriages 1952 Folkstone, Kent and births 1927 West Derby, Lancs 1927) should give you almost as much as I presently know.
Her father was listed on the marriage cert as a medical practitioner named Charles Hilton, although I initially misread the handwriting and thought he was a Chester Hilton. I opted for Charles because I could find no Chester's of any sort whatsoever.
When I know more I will let you know, but it does seem from your response that even Dr. Hilton was highly mobile, and I will have great difficulty tying him down to a specific location for any significant period of time. I had not thought about the 1939 register, but even if I had, unfortunately I have no access to it.
At the moment, all I can do is thank all of you for your interest and input, and write that I am keeping my fingers crossed that you or another Rootschatter can eventually come up with that eureka moment.
Regards for Christmas
Roy G
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Hi
To potentially save Rootschatters wasting effort duplicating research . . . . .
There is an online tree. (ie public)
Middle name "Joanna"
She married "Douglas Herbert Hecter Lee"
It has young parents listed, not Hilton.
Roy, what would you like me to do?
Publish, here, what is in public view?
Regards
Ray
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Hi Ray.
Thanks for that info, and yes we are writing about that same family.
I would certainly like to see that tree or for someone to let me know the actual details either here or by a PM. (I got your PM BTW) If extensive, can you PM me with a link to the website it is on?
I am hoping it is not on A, My H or F M P for I don't have membership of any of those and when links are sent, those websites no longer provide me with free access. (Few of us are in a position to subscribe to them all) My tie is to Geni.
I have been told the name Marjorie Ada Shaw creeps in somewhere, but word of mouth is not evidence is it, especially as I do not know where, why or how.
Regards Roy
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Hi Roy
Yes, it is a subs site.
From my searches . . . . . try William Charles Hilton?
Margery/Marjery/Marjory Ada/Hilda SHAW
Ray
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You don't need a sub to do an advanced search of the 1939 register on FindMyPast. Plugging in the name Barbara Hilton and the birth date 2 December 1927 (is that correct? it's from the public tree), produces just one hit - in Monmouth, with the alternative name of Margery A Shaw. You would need to subscribe to view the page.
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I noticed these details earlier but wasn't sure. However, since Margery may now be involved there is this birth:
Worksop December quarter 1927 vol 7b pg 74
Margery A Shaw mmn Wainwright
Not sure if that helps much as the Hilton/Shaw reference is in Monmouthshire in 1939.
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Your combined efforts seem to be coming together and supporting the little additional info that I also know.
Ray and I are rightfully concerned that we do not infringe family privacy, but my primary aim (which I wish other Rootschatters to respect) at any stage during these open discussions, is to not reveal the names of those descendants which resulted from Barbara's marriage. As the marriage was in 1952, I would be pleased to know about anything that predates that event.
Her daughter (who I will not name) found that a book owned by her mother which had the name Marjory Ada Shaw written in it. That seems to tie in with what you now tell me about the 1939 Monmouthshire census which I have yet to find details of. The short birth cert for Barbara Hilton I have seen also has a birth date of 2 Dec 1927 which again indicates Barbara and Majorie were almost certainly the same person.
I now need to equate the above findings with an alternative entry found in Worksop.
Worksop December quarter 1927 vol 7b pg 74 (Margery A Shaw, mum's mn Wainwright)
and another where the father has the first name Joseph and the mother is surnamed Jones.
Could the shortened birth cert I have seen be an official fabrication to cover an adoption?
Adoptions are totally outside my expertise, so I would need your advice on that.
I wonder who submitted the tree that Ray has found on F M P, for they would certainly be a useful additional contact.
Regards Roy G
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From the annotation it looks as though the name change from Margery A Shaw to Barbara Hilton was notified in September 1949, by which time she would have 21, nearly 22 - too old for adoption.
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1949 QS shows a marriage Hilton/Shaw
1939 shows a ref for 1949 marriage and register change of name
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There appears to be more trees on A
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The Jun qtr 1927 Shaw birth reg in Liverpool with mother’s maiden name Jones doesn’t match a December birthday. Not sure how reliable some of these trees might be.
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Possible first husband? Walter Charles Hilton died in Liverpool S, Dec qtr 1957 aged 79.
BUT - probate granted to Edith Mary Hilton, widow, so not an obvious match. Looks like the wrong generation.
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Another tree shows Margery Ada Shaw b 11.11. 1927 Yorkshire (not Worksop obviously but maybe close?)
She marries as Marjorie A in Thanet, Kent in 1949 and dies in Australia.
It is getting a bit confusing now :-\
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Possible first husband? Walter Charles Hilton died in Liverpool S, Dec qtr 1957 aged 79.
BUT - probate granted to Edith Mary Hilton, widow, so not an obvious match. Looks like the wrong generation.
The 1949 marriage was to a Hilda Shaw. Either way I think this is a false trail.
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So the short birth cert in the name of Barbara Hilton which she ordered for herself (Dec qtr 1927 W Derby district) perfectly corroborates the 2 Dec 1927 birthdate used by “Margery A Shaw”?
If so that suggests to me that she was born and registered as Barbara Hilton, somebody renamed her Margery A Shaw (perhaps through formal or informal adoption), and she reverted to her birth name when she reached 21.
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She was possibly an evacuee in Monmouth in September 1939.
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Yes it’s a pity other children’s names can’t be seen, in case she was evacuated with a sibling.
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A 12 year old evacuee is a most interesting concept, and certainly an excellent reason for putting her name into all her possessions.
Furthermore, I never thought that early birth records could be adjusted after the event, so as the short birth cert in the name of Barbara Hilton perfectly corroborates the 2 Dec 1927 birth date used by “Margery A Shaw” it does seem quite acceptable that she may have initially been born and registered as Barbara Hilton, and was then renamed by adoptive parents as Margery A Shaw. It is equally conceivable that as suggested, she reverted to her birth name when she reached 21.
That being so, I have to remain rather skeptical about the marriage of a Hilda Shaw to a Walter C Hilton in 1949, but I am not prepared to dismiss it entirely at present for there may be further supporting evidence. I would need to know far more about the 1949 Shaw to Hilton name change or possibly a name reversal before making that decision.
And I thought this was going to be a quiet and rather uninteresting day before Christmas!
Regards Roy G
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The original full GRO cert for B Hilton mmn Hilton (Dec qtr 1927) would give you her mother's name. I think it should also indicate "adopted" if a formal adoption took place.
PB :)
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Hello again :)
It appears that the code connected to the 1939 Register entry might signify a change of name by deed poll. I believe DMS is a location in Surrey.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=738645.0
PB
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To Ray
Way back you wrote,
There is an online tree. (ie public) Middle name "Joanna" adding who she married and that the tree had young parents listed who were not Hiltons. You followed this by asking what would I like you to do, explaining that if you posted that information, it would be in public view.
My opinion (which I should have voiced at the time) is that as she was born in 1927, the parents shown on the tree were certainly born over 100 years ago, so there should be no offence incurred if you revealed those details. Furthermore, if that tree is in public view as you say, would there be any objection to revealing the name of the person who posted it?
If you still feel uncomfortable doing so openly here, you do have an e-mail address for me, so you can as an alternative, send a short summary or screen shot to me privately.
I hope I am not asking too much.
Regards Roy G
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Hello Roy,
The tree I can see has very little information and is not supported with evidence.
It just shows Barbara Joanna Hilton date of birth as previously given here and death in 2012 in Scotland.
Parents are shown as Joseph Shaw (1910 - ) and Jones (1911 -).
Then there is mention of the death of her husband in 1991.
Heywood
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You mention Barbara being a nurse. I can’t see her name in Nurses records for that time.
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It appears that the code connected to the 1939 Register entry might signify a change of name by deed poll. I believe DMS is a location in Surrey.
Yes - "DMS" is Reigate.
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Thanks Heywood,
The term nurse appeared on Barbara's marriage registration. From what I can gather from talking to the descendants, hers was a more caring role somewhere, so she may not have been a nurse with an official qualification.
Anyway, the picture that seems to be emerging is that Joseph Shaw and somebody Jones were the couple that adopted her. Unfortunately, the Shaw with Jones combo as married couples on FreeBMD is quite extensive, but at least its another brick to build the wall with.
Does the tree submitted by a mystery person show anything else on Shaw and Jones, such as other children, for that might help in the couple's eventual identification?
Regards Roy G
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No other information and I would guess the names may be made up.
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I believe the supposed Shaw/Jones nexus means someone has alighted on the Jun qtr 1928 Liverpool birth registration of M D Shaw, mmn Jones (first name is indexed but she may still be alive).
We already know I think that it is the wrong registration, because the Dec qtr 1927 W Derby birth certificate has been inherited. In that case the public tree information can be disregarded.
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I agree with avm228. The Dec birth date you have does not match with a Jun qtr registration.
It appears that you don't know who her adoptive parents were, then? If it was me, I would be ordering both the Hilton and the Margery A Shaw certs for the Dec qtr and see how things match up. Realize they are different registration areas but an adoption could have been finalized just about anywhere I would suppose.
PB
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And....
It seems highly unlikely that 2 young people 17 (J Shaw) and 16 (Jones) (using birth dates in the tree) would be married by 1927 much less in a position to adopt a child.
IMHO, a very unreliable tree.
PB
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I've not seen the tree PB, but I certainly get the gut feeling that you are right.
Shame really because I was initially thinking that it would be most rewarding to contact the submitter, but now it may not be wise because there certainly appear to be flaws in their research.
Regards Roy G
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The short birth cert for Barbara Hilton I have seen also has a birth date of 2 Dec 1927 which again indicates Barbara and Majorie were almost certainly the same person.
I think you need to apply for the full length birth certificate for both Barbara HILTON
Barbara Hilton 1927 West Derby Lancashire
Mother's Maiden Name: Hilton
Volume Number: 8b Page Number: 703
and Marjorie SHAW you will note that this birth is re registration which may allude to the adoption
Marjorie D Shaw 1928 Liverpool
Re-registration Year: 1928
Mother's Maiden Name: Jones
Volume Number: 8b Page Number: 371
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Adoption doesn’t trigger re-registration of a birth, though. It is dealt with in a separate register not searchable online.
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Marjorie A Shaw of Monmouthshire in 1939 has the same birth date I think. It has been established in an earlier post.
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There is a bit of info about the GRO adoption index in reply #9 of this link.....
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=758640.msg6232395#msg6232395
PB
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From the annotation it looks as though the name change from Margery A Shaw to Barbara Hilton was notified in September 1949, by which time she would have 21, nearly 22 - too old for adoption.
Slightly odd that her record is open - no updated married name and died in Scotland not so long ago - but her second entry that is referenced appears to be closed?
Whereas the person on the next page who is "see page 5" is also open on page 5!
(In fact the entry under that person on page 2 is closed, but open on page 5?)
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Just wanted to get something clear in my mind about the Re-registration highlighted by elzabels.
A noticeable difference between the two is a totally new name and the mother's maiden name.
So do I understand from that, that in the case of an adoption, the GRO are empowered to issue a re-registered (phony) birth certificate for an adopted child, giving it a new name and new parents?
Small perhaps irrelevant note. 1928 was Marjorie D Shaw, Barbara became a Marjorie A Shaw.
NEXT to JonW65
You seem to have found the page 5 that has been eluding me. As the 1939 page 2 has a blanked off entry above and 2 blanked off entries below Barbara's name, can you at least tell me if page 5 adds anything that may be useful either here or by a PM. I would be most grateful if you could.
Regards Roy G
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Hi Roy
Page 5 must be last page on there.
But I haven't found Barbara on it. I think only 3 names are open. The (lady) I alluded to doesn't seem to have anything different about her on the second entry!
Would it be possible to get the other entry opened if you can produce Barbara's death certificate?
John
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So do I understand from that, that in the case of an adoption, the GRO are empowered to issue a re-registered (phony) birth certificate for an adopted child, giving it a new name and new parents?
They can issue a new birth certificate, but that is not as a result of any re-registration in the birth register.
Example: Sarah Smith is born. Her birth is registered in the usual way, naming her birth parent(s).
An adoption order is then made, and the child’s adoptive parents rename her Jane Jones. These details are entered into the Adopted Children Register. This does not affect the original birth registration, and is not searchable on FreeBMD regardless of date.
The adoptee can in due course obtain any or all of (1) a certificate based on her original birth registration (as Sarah Smith); (2) a short “birth” certificate based on her Adopted Children Register details (as Jane Jones, but making no reference to parentage or adoption); (3) an adoption certificate based on her Adopted Children Register details (as Jane Jones).
In your case, Marjorie D Shaw cannot be the same person as Barbara Hilton, because there are separate birth registrations for them so they are separate people. Adoption, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, does not generate a fresh birth registration.
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Could the scenario be that the Liverpool born Barbara Hilton became Marjorie/Margery A Shaw (not M D Shaw) and then as an adult reverted to her birth name?
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Could the scenario be that the Liverpool born Barbara Hilton became Marjorie/Margery A Shaw (not M D Shaw) and then as an adult reverted to her birth name?
Yes, as per reply #21 I think that is likely - but not the 1927-registered Margery A Shaw b Worksop, because again she has an independent birth registration so is a different person (and indeed as I recall you? found evidence she may have ended up in Australia).
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Yes, I thought she may be discounted but don’t understand why you mention Marjorie D Shaw in reply #44.
1939 is Marjorie A.
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Yes, I thought she may be discounted but don’t understand why you mention Marjorie D Shaw in reply #44.
Only because at reply #37 Roy G was being encouraged to buy the birth cert of M D Shaw on the basis that it might be a re-registration of Barbara’s birth following an adoption, and at reply #42 Roy G came back asking about this notion of a “re-registration”.
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Oh dearie me ::)
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Hi Ladies and Gents.
The string has got remarkably long in a very short time, so it is quite understandable if some of you have failed to pick up elements that have already been sorted. In order to not triplicate what has gone before, here is a quick summary.
IT IS AFFIRMED that Barbara Hilton (born West Derby 1927) became Marjorie A Shaw (almost certainly by adoption), was residing in Wales in 1939 and later moved to Scotland. She left there in 1949 and reverted to her original Hilton name. She then married in 1952 and out of respect for members of the family, I have no wish to broadcast anything from after that date
There are trees for her on 2 major websites, but am beginning to doubt their accuracy, especially those that suggest her mother's maiden name was not Hilton, but Jones. I am already awaiting the arrival of a copy of the full birth certificate to see if that gives more info on her birth mother or has something attached that relates to an adoption. In addition, I also have to approach those agencies which may have adoption and name change details in the new year and after that I should have a better understanding of the overall picture.
That's about where we are at at present.
I would like to thank you all for your input, but unless any of you make a major discovery, its about time to take time out to affirm the findings so far with supporting documents.
Thanks again. I will let you all know if anything significant subsequently transpires.
I do hope you all have a Happy New Year.
I'll be back on Rootsachat then
Regards Roy G
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I don’t think anyone is failing to keep up.
Do update when Barbara’s birth certificate arrives.
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It appears that the code connected to the 1939 Register entry might signify a change of name.
I believe DMS is a location in Surrey.
Yes - "DMS" is Reigate.
The name change was probably around the date given - since she would presumably have needed a National Identity card, ration books in her new/original name.
1949 electoral register
Reigate South Ward
Lonesome Lane
"Salmons Cross"
de Havas, Frederic
de Havas, Frances M.
Clarke, George
Shaw, Marjorie
1950 electoral register (qualifying date 20 November 1949)
Reigate South Ward
Lonesome Lane
"Salmons Cross"
de Havas, Frederic
de Havas, Frances M.
Clarke, George
Hilton, Barbara
Bourne-Taylor, Effie
1951
"Salmons Cross"
de Havas, Frederic
de Havas, Frances M.
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Dr Frederic De Havas was the founder and principal of Salmons Cross School which opened in 1948.
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Dr Frederic De Havas was the founder and principal of Salmons Cross School which opened in 1948.
Regrettably I can’t find any documentation of Marjorie/Barbara’s name change on Gazettes Online (perhaps unsurprising if she was merely reverting to her birth name).
I did find a notice of the naturalisation on 9 December 1948 of Havas Friedrich Kisunyoni (known as Frederic de Havas), formerly of Hungary, a teacher, of Salmon’s Cross, Lonesome Lane, Reigate, Surrey.
(London Gazette, 18 January 1949).
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Best to wait for news from Roy when he gets the certificate.
John
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I am going to stop digging on this one.
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Hi those that showed an interest, I'm back.
The Birth cert and adoption details did not take long to arrive, but my contacts were on their travels when they did. I have therefore had to wait until they got back and forwarded me some more info.
I now know that I am looking for Barbara's mother, a Janet Hilton who was living in the Liverpool area in 1927. The two most likely candidates on FreeBMD are the one born Wigan and the other born West Derby.
I also need to check up on two Liverpudlian addresses in 1927-1928
Joseph Shaw of 38 Lyall Street, Everton,
and the surname Hilton at what appears to be 44 Towngate? Road, Liverpool.
The latter is certainly something ----gate, and I am hoping that it is a family address rather than an institution for unmarried mums.
So if you have any old Kellys directories from that era lying around, I would much appreciate a look up.
Regards Roy G
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Thanks for the update, Roy.
What was the address on Barbara’s birth certificate?
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44 Towngate? Road, Liverpool.
Or a word that looks like Towngate
Roy G
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Yes I thought it must be.
There is a tree showing the Wigan lady with two husbands but I can’t see a marriage to either.
The Janet in West Derby Registration district might also have been married more than once.
If you look on Free BMD, there is a Liverpool marriage for Janet Hilton in 1932.
1939 register indicates a change of name for her but I can’t see a marriage.
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I can’t find a Towngate Road by searching.
http://liverpool.streetmapof.co.uk/t/2
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Thank you for looking heywood and your further input.
i will do my best to follow up the two lines you suggest, but you have also made me think of a further line of enquiry. Many of us (me included) assume that when a lady has a child and fails to declare the name of its father, she has found herself in that predicament because she is both youthful and has never been married. That may not be the case, so it will be another option I must consider.
Regarding Town?gate;- The address on the birth registration definitely has about 4 or five letters in front of the word 'gate' so I am looking for a Liverpudlian 'Road' (not Street or Crescent, that existed in 1927 and fitted that format. Is there a street directory on the Internet that I could search? If that fails, I will do my best to insert an image to see if others can decipher it.
(Note, I've been with Rootschat for well over a decade now, but have yet to use their facility for adding an illustration)
Regards Roy G
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There is a Southgate Road in Old Swan area.
In 1925 Joseph Shaw is living at 38 Lyell Street. There are also two people called Hyland. The Hylands are there in 1929/30.
44 Southgate Road - 1925 - one Wilkinson
1929/30 one Wilkinson, two Johnson.
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Free address search of the 1939 Register
44 Wingate Road, Liverpool
Janet (W M) Hilton, born 1886
Harry Hilton, born 1913
Hilda Hilton, born 1915
Samuel Clews, born 1888
Maybe
Birth, March 1913 West Derby 8b 615
Hilton, Henry
mother Buckley
Did Henry marry Hilda Crystal in Liverpool in 1938?
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my first attempt to insert an image was unsuccessful, so I am trying again.(http://)
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1925 electoral register may have Janet Hilton at 44 Wingate Road.
Could be the mother of Janet born 1908.
Here they are in 1911
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWT4-KB6
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1925 electoral register may have Janet Hilton at 44 Wingate Road.
Could be the mother of Janet born 1908
That is interesting, Jon. :) it fits well and seems a very good find.
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That of course wouldn’t be the one we have been considering but could be her mother perhaps or someone completely different.
Sorry- didn’t see reply #64
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Yes, it is the mother you have there. This is the one we were considering.
I have mentioned possible marriages already.
Janet Hilton b 1908 West Derby mmn Buckley
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Mother lived to 1979!
Death, Dec 1979 Wallasey vol 37 page 1137
Hilton, Janet Warwick M.
d-o-b 18 March 1886
And left a will
Janet Warwick Marie Hilton, died 21 Dec 1979
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=hilton&yearOfDeath=1980&page=3#calendar
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It looks as though William Hilton died in WW1.
Date of death 7/8/1915
Husband of Janet Hilton, of 44, Wingate Rd., Aigburth, Liverpool.
https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/691740/hilton,-william/
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that would be Barbara Hilton’s grandmother if we have the right family.
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Yes, having two Janets can make it confusing ;D
But it's also a good name for us, not so many of them about.
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I just thought you had misunderstood my reference to ‘ mother’.
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Hi
The replies kept coming in as I was responding to previous messages, so my thoughts had to be constantly readjusted.
The finding of a Janet Hilton senior and her family at 44 Wingate Road Liverpool in 1939 has to be far more than an uncanny coincidence. I am fairly confident that you have hit on the maternal line, so I am fully prepared to go with that line of thought and develop it.
I very much doubt that is a false trail, and am now beginning to think that the late Barbara created in her own mind the family that she imagined she may have come from. Overcoming that imaginary ancestry of hers has been a major stumbling block, but I think that with all your help, we have cracked it.
i am most grateful to everyone for their input, which as you may judge for yourselves, seems to have halved the initial problem I was faced with. All that is missing, and perhaps I will never know, is the paternal line. I'm sure there are many other researchers who have very similar problems and in all probability, they seldom get solved.
Thank you all so much
Regards Roy G
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A few incidentals now to help tidy up loose ends,
Re
If you look on Free BMD, there is a Liverpool marriage for Janet Hilton in 1932.
(found that to Mervyn Nunn)
1939 register indicates a change of name for her but I can’t see a marriage.
(Does that show she was born c1908, but is no longer a Nunn and has another new partner?)
Now my own ignorance over adoption procedures, and a matter arising.
The official certificate which I have now seen a copy of confirms that Barbara was adopted by Joseph Shaw of 38 Lyell Street Everton.
BUT There is no mention of Joseph Shaw having a spouse on that certificate!
I find it unusual that in 1928 a female child can be adopted by what appears to be a lone male.
Is this just the way adoption certificates were done then?
A matter arising.
I believe one of you stated that on Barbara's death in 2012, her parents were in fact listed as a Joseph Shaw (b1910) and a ? Jones (b1911).
Would that info have come from officially held records or just from a well meaning but possibly mistaken informant?
What i have in the back of my mind is a tree which I found on Geni which has a Liverpudlian Joseph Shaw with a then unmarried son (born 1910 so classified as a minor) also called Joseph Shaw. Could the adoption record actually be a grandfather adopting his own son's illegitimate child?
Does that make sense to anyone?
Regards Roy G
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1939 index shows 1909 as birth year and Bryce (Nunn) name.
There is a family tree with very little information.
Barbara Joanna Hilton parents Joseph Shaw 1910 and Jones 1911.
No other information re the parents.
There is a marriage for Barbara and death.
The Electoral Registers for 1925 show
Joseph Shaw and another couple at 38 Lyell Street
There is though an entry for John Shaw showing - same address and other couple on a different register. Both registers seem to be Spring 1925 so I don’t understand that.
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Thank you heywood.
I will look at the more recent records again, but now with the surname Bryce also in mind
Unfortunately, it is strongly believed that the family tree that you are referring to also includes certain unverified speculative information that has been recently added by an over-enthusiastic amateur, so that is why I am obliged to be extra careful.
As you know, discovering who may have been the father of an illegitimate child always presents family historians with major problems, that is why I was questioning whether the law would allow an lone male, to legally adopt a baby girl. Perhaps the law would be more flexible if this was his own illegitimate child and they had every reason to believe that he and his own family would care for it? Your confirmation that there was a Joseph Shaw at the Lyell Street address in 1925 is therefore most helpful. Unfortunately in that year, the Joseph born 1910 would have only been 15, so would not have appeared on the Electoral Register. If his father was also a Joseph as I suspect (by then either divorced or widowed) he may have been shown on that register.
Onwards and Backwards
Regards Roy G
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1911 index shows several Joseph Shaws in the area.
The Lyell street address does not seem to be a permanent address as the other couple are still living there a few of years before and later.
I must add that, unless you have the certificate, there is no proof yet that the Hilton/Nunn marriage is the right Janet.
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Hi Heywood. Thanks once again.
Although i can see there were other Joseph Shaws elsewhere in the Liverpool area, a Joseph Shaw that was living at 38 Lyell Street in 1928 appeared on the adoption registration as the adopting parent. He must have subsequently moved making him less easy to identify among all the other J Shaws in the area, so I am left to clutch at any possible straws.
The line I feel most strongly about (but only have the 1910 birth year to go on) relates to a tree I discovered on the Geni website.
That tree has a Joseph Shaw junior born Toxteth 29 Nov 1910 (shown as unmarried), one of 12 children fathered by Joseph Shaw senior (b1880-d1944) and his wife Elizabeth nee Bulger (b1879-d1947). If the Joseph Shaw junior was Barbara's father, and (being a minor himself) his own father Joseph Shaw senior felt obliged to become the adopting parent (giving her the new name of Marjorie Ada Shaw) the problem would be solved.
A great solution, but lacking in lots and lots of proof.
NOTE: Florence, the youngest sibling of Joseph Junior was born in 1925, so his own daughter born 1928 appearing as a further sibling would not have seemed too much out of place.
Regards Roy G
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When I wrote of several Joseph Shaws, I was not referring to the one in Lyell Street. That sighting in 1925 is the only one you can rely on at the moment. I mean in the wider Liverpool area.
I have seen an extensive tree for the Joseph you have mentioned. Joseph and Elizabeth died in 1940s.
There was a child born to them in 1925 who shows in the 1939 index.
It records Joseph jnr marrying in 1943.
It does not seem to be the scenario you have mentioned regarding young Joseph.
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Hi
Re the electoral registers, if Joseph Shaw at 38 Lyell did have a wife in 1925, or acquired one later, she would only be on them if she was at least 30 years of age.
Following the extension of the vote to women over 21, the first register affected is 1929.
Joseph Shaw was not listed at 38 Lyell Street in 1924.
Which has John William Lewis Hyland, Marion Hyland, John Williams, Harriet Williams at the address. Either Joseph wasn't there or he was under 21.
1925, as heywood says, the Hylands plus Joseph Shaw (he was a parliamentary voter only)
1926, the Hylands and Joseph Shaw. Joseph is now both a parliamentary and local government voter.
1927, 1928 - situation the same at 38 Lyell - the two Hylands and Joseph Shaw.
1929 Just the two Hylands , John WL and Marion, listed.
It's unfortunate that Joseph didn't stay there a bit longer!
John
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The only Janet Bryce I can see on the Liverpool electorals (hoping the lady in question is in them!) is found after WW2 at Flat B, 26 Huskisson Street.
Also recorded there is a William Bryce.
There is a death of a William Bryce, age 57, Sep qtr 1955, Liverpool South
And the chap at Huskisson Street is not listed in 1956, only Janet.
Possible death of the Nunn/Bryce lady, as day/month of birth seem to match 1939 info.
May 1997 Liverpool
Janet Bryce
d-o-b 21 Dec 1906
EDIT Looks like there is probate for her.
Janet Bryce died 19 May 1997.
Probate (will) granted at Liverpool, 30 July 1997
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Mother lived to 1979!
Death, Dec 1979 Wallasey vol 37 page 1137
Hilton, Janet Warwick M.
d-o-b 18 March 1886
Bit of luck!
Liverpool Echo, 24 December 1979 (page 4)
Deaths
HILTON—December 21, 1979,
peacefully, aged 93 years, JANET
WARWICK MARIE HILTON,
dearly loved mother of Janet Bryce.
Service and cremation at Landican
Crematorium, Friday, December
28, at 1.30 p.m. Flowers and
inquiries John W. Griffith and
Son, Millbank Funeral Home, Mill
Lane, Wallasey.
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Going back to that possible Janet with William Bryce -
an announcement in the Echo, 11 July 1955
BRYCE—July 10. WILLIAM, dearly
beloved husband of Janet Bryce, of 26
Huskisson St. Service Liverpool Crema -
torium, Priory Rd., Wednesday next,
at 12. Flowers, in bunches please, and
all inquiries to John Leary, Reverent
Chapel of Rest, 188 Breck Rd., L'pool 5
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Liverpool Daily Post, 2 December 1942
Legal Notices
I, JANET BRYCE of 26 Huskisson
Street in the City of Liverpool a natural
born British subject heretofore called and
known by the name of Janet Nunn hereby
give Notice that on the Twenty-seventh day
of November 1942 I renounced and abandoned
the use of my said surname of Nunn and
assumed in lieu thereof the surname of Bryce
and further that such change of name is
evidenced by a Deed dated Twenty-seventh
November 1942, duly executed by me and
attested.—Dated the Thirtieth day of November
1942.
AUBREY CROYSDALE & CORNISH.
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Super work, Jon. :)
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Thanks heywood. I was following up your suggestions about Janet's possible marriage and name change, you were absolutely right.
We have got very lucky with those newspaper announcements.
But, oh dear, Joseph Shaw. If only he had stayed at 38 Lyell for longer, it might have been a big help.
John
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Do you think the electoral register for John Shaw, Lyell Street, in 1925 was an error?
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Hi
It could have been, they are not error free. But I must admit that I only looked at one of them closely. Is it a difference between spring/autumn registers?
John
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From what I could see they were both Spring - unless I missed the title page.
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Hi
Turns out that there are two different registers on there.
On ancestry, under Liverpool, West Derby Register of Voters 1925
Image 697 (of 1546)
Spring 1925
38 Lyell Street
is Joseph Shaw
Image 1473 (of 1546)
Autumn 1925
38 Lyell Street
is John Shaw
"John" Shaw has votes in both parliamentary/local elections.
Very strange! But it looks like a mistake as it was Joseph first!
Liverpool, West Derby Register of Voters 1924
Image 1446 (of 1518)
Autumn 1924
Confirming that no Shaw at 38, John or Joseph! John + Harriet Williams still listed.
John
EDIT
Mrs J. Bryce at 26 Huskisson St in the Liverpool Phone Book, 1984 (November)
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This is a most fascinating family investigation. Not only does it consist of several unmarried mums who fail to declare who the father of their offspring was, but at any stage when we seem to be getting nearer the truth, everyone seems to manufacture hypothetical ancestors and opt to change identities.
So every input seems to bring me just a bit closer to the truth, but also provides further problems to solve. The latest, the official movement from Nunn to Bryce, is another inexplicable addition, and there are no kids on FreeBMD to verify any aspect of either union. This probably explains that when Barabara's legitimate daughter was approached to become a magistrate after the necessary background checks, Barbara flew into a frenzy and refused to collaborate.
I think it was Shakespeare who first wrote those most applicable lines,
"Oh what a tangled web we weave when at first we start to deceive."
Regards Roy
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The official certificate which I have now seen a copy of confirms that Barbara was adopted by Joseph Shaw of 38 Lyell Street Everton.
BUT There is no mention of Joseph Shaw having a spouse on that certificate!
I find it unusual that in 1928 a female child can be adopted by what appears to be a lone male.
Is this just the way adoption certificates were done then?
The Adoption Act 1926
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1926/29/pdfs/ukpga_19260029_en.pdf
2. Restrictions on Making Adoption Orders, may answer your question!
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Which says
2.—(1) An adoption order shall not be made in any case where—
(a) the applicant is under the age of twenty-five years, or
(b) the applicant is less than twenty-one years older than the infant in respect of whom the application is made :
Provided that, where the applicant and the infant are within the prohibited degrees of consanguinity, it shall be lawful for the court, if it thinks fit, to make the order notwithstanding that the applicant is less than twenty-one years older than the infant.
(2) An adoption order shall not be made in any case where the sole applicant is a male and the infant in respect of whom the application is made is a female unless the Court is satisfied that there are special circumstances which justify as an exceptional measure the making of an adoption order.
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I am hoping it is not on A, My H or F M P for I don't have membership of any of those and when links are sent, those websites no longer provide me with free access.
If you can just register with ancestry.co.uk as a free member (painless!), or if you are perhaps already registered as such, there is free access to UK records this weekend (starting now!)
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Hi to all those who responded to this topic at some stage.
More recent further researches have resulted in a need to ask a few more questions.
I am trying to find out a little more about
(A) June Edith Jones who was a pre or postwar headmistress of a school in or near Wigan
(B) Who was living at 101 Miles Street, Liverpool in 1942.
Are any of you in a position to help?
Thanks
Roy G
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Not sure if this helps
101 Miles Street - Electoral registers
1939/40
Walter and Mary Aston
1945
Edwards Mason (might be Mason Edwards?)
Leonora Woollam
Clara Williams
Richard Jones
John Williams
Eliza Grace Bloor
1950
Eliza and James Bates
Turner family (3 persons)
Richard and Gladys Williams
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Thanks Heywood
I'm not sure it helps either, but Richard Jones could be worth following up
Regards Roy G
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Fascinating story and detective work .
I came across this post when looking for HILTONs who may have been brought up by an early generation .but I'm looking at 1890s
Btw probably not relevant to this particular story but adult adoptions do occur
So shouldn't ever be dismissed out of hand
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Thank you for your reply Ray.
That was over 4 years ago, and since then the person I was referring to has died, and her daughter who I was trying to help has become less enthused. I hope you will therefore understand that resolving the matter is no longer high on my personal agenda.
Regards Roy