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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Derry (Londonderry) => Topic started by: jen5525 on Thursday 27 December 18 23:35 GMT (UK)
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Hi all,
I've been trying to break a brick wall in my Stewart line for ages, and believe I may have made a breakthrough! (1) I'd like an opinion on whether this information fits the way i believe it does and (2) if so, where might I go from here to find additional information.
I have a marriage record for James Stewart to Margaret White in Dundee, Angus/Forfarshire Scotland in 1855. James' parents are listed as John Stewart and Jane Jones. He indicates his place of birth as Co Londonderry Parish Tamlaugh (I assume Tamlaght). This is all I had to go on.
Today I came across a record for a census extract from census return of 1851 for a Dorothy Stewart with parents listed as John Stewart and Jane Jones in the parish of Tamlaght O'Crilly. There are 2 images which were the result of 2 searches (see attached). Household members (no ages) are listed and there is a James. (note that James does not appear in the 1851 scotland census and I'd always assumed he'd moved between 1851 and 1855).
(1) do you think this is the correct family (e.g., James' parents and siblings) and (2) it appears Dorothy would have moved to Scotland at the time of the record as the address she lists on the claim is LGB (Local Government Board) Edinburgh? If so, I cannot find a death for her in the ediburgh area.
thanks in advance for weighing in with opinions or with suggestions on where to search next.
Jennifer
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Just a point of clarification. This extract would have been made following application for an Old Age Pension as I understand it. It was not a form that was completed in 1851. On both of the forms there is a date in 1915 (22/11/15 & 1/12/15) which was when Dorothy must have applied. She sent an application and public servants of the day would check to see whether she appeared on the 1851 census and complete the form with the details. I think the address would have been the address she was applying from in 1915. Anyway these applications do give a look in to the 1851 census record as it was in 1915, have been completed by people who, ususally/hopefully are accurate, and are invaluable. Lucky you!
Did you also see that you have a grandfather, Thomas Jones appearing as well. The parents seem to have been living with Mother Jane's father.
Have you looked for the other possible siblings to see if they went to Scotland as well? Dorothy may not have died in Edinburgh of course.
I would have a look at Griffiths Valuation for Tamlaght O'Crilly to see if Stewarts or Jones' are located there. This was carried out in the 1850s across Ireland
Does James name any of his children Dorothy or do any of the other siblings? You may find Dorothy in earlier Scottish censuses. I think also that if you have not already done so it might be good to search the siblings shown on the forms to find their histories.
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One of your attachments indicates Dorothy Stewart’s married name was McMurdy. I can see a marriage in Northern Ireland on 17.8.1865 between Dorethea Stewart and Andrew McMurdy, registered in Magherafelt, Co. Londonderry. That might be your lady. The certificate might give you a little more information. You can view the original certificate on-line on the GRONI website, using the “search registrations” option:
https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk
You will need to open an account and buy some credits. It costs £2.50 (sterling) to a view a certificate.
There are 3 Tamlaght parishes in Co Londonderry (Tamlaght O’Crilly, Tamlaght Finlagan and plain Tamlaght. Always worth bearing in mind).
What denomination were your Stewart family?
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Good spotting with the marriage.
I have found a reference to Jane Jones owning a house in Tamlaght O'Crilly in the GV in 1859.
John Stewart is shown as leasing land in Tamlaght O'Crilly in GV in 1859 also...quite a bit.
I think you could look for McMurdys, Jones' and Stewarts in the Ireland census of 1901/11. Interesting to see who remains behind and good for ancestor hunting by age.
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At least 5 children to that McMurdy/Stewart couple. Births all registered in Magherafelt:
Mary 6.6.1866
David 11.1.1868
William 13.6.1871
Elizabeth 5.10.1878
Thomas John 30.11.1881 (His certificate below).
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1881/02809/2030797.pdf
No sign of any of the above family in the 1901 Irish census. All appear to have left Ireland sometime between November 1881 and 1901.
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thanks so much! I had missed the marriage. That's a fantastic find! And lots of new information to research tomorrow! so thankful for all of your help :)!
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A couple of other McMurdy births from Family Search - useful to have these for naming pattern clues, if any!
Name Jane Mcmurdy
Gender Female
Birth Date 12 Oct 1872
Birthplace , , IRELAND
Father's Name Andrew Mcmurdy
Mother's Name Dorothy Stuart
Name Mary Isabella McMurdy
Event Type Birth
Event Date 06 Jun 1866
Event Place Magherafelt, Magherafelt, Ireland
Event Place Drumance Ballyscullion, Magherafelt, Ireland
Gender Female
Father's Name Andrew McMurdy
Mother's Name Dorothea Stewart McMurdy
Name William John McMurdy
Event Type Birth
Event Date 13 Jun 1871
Event Place Magherafelt, Magherafelt, Ireland
Event Place Magherafelt
Gender Male
Father's Name Andrew McMurdy
Mother's Name Dorothea Stewart McMurdy
Name David James McMurdy
Event Type Birth
Event Date 11 Jan 1868
Event Place Magherafelt, Magherafelt, Ireland
Event Place Drumanel Ballyscullion, Magherafelt, Ireland
Gender Male
Father's Name Andrew McMurdy
Mother's Name Dorthia Stewart McMurdy
Confirmation of fathers' names
Name Andrew McMurdy
Event Date 17 Aug 1865
Event Place Magherafelt, Magherafelt, Ireland
Event Place Magherafelt, Magherafelt, Ireland
Father's Name David McMurdy
Spouse's Name Doretha Stewart
Spouse's Father's Name John Stewart
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thank you SO much for pointing out the McMurdy surname! It's led to another wonderful find! I found Dorothy's death record...in Glasgow area of Scotland in 1933.
Her name is indexed there as Dorothea McMurdie. Widow of Andrew McMurdie. Parents John Stewart and Jane Jones! I believe she was living there at the time of the request for the census extract (which was done in 1915). So I'm going to do some more research tomorrow and see if I can trace her back.
I'm so thankful for your help!!!
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Oh my! I have a lot of research to do in the morning ;)
Just looked at Dorothea's death record and the informant was her daughter Elizabeth (married name Walker).
It's so awesome to be able to start to chip away at this wall!
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Elizabeth McMordie married John Walker 1897, Blythswood, Glasgow.
Elizabeth Walker, nee McMordie death , aged 85, registered Springburn, Glasgow 1963 644/4 384.
Dorothea McMurdie is in the 1901 Scottish census in St Rollox, Glasgow 644/6 67/1. She’s 48, plus Thomas J 19 and John 30.
In the 1911 census it’s Dorothea McMurdo aged 67, plus David McMurdo aged 40. In Possilpark, Glasgow. 644/7 14/2.
Marriage for Jane McMurdie to Donald Bruce 1897 St Rollox, Glasgow 644/6 143
1901 census for St Rollox, Glasgow has Donald Bruce 24, Jane 24, Dorothea L.G. 2 & Helen 1.
Jane 24, may have been a little economical with her age in the census, as she was born in 1872.
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thanks so very much!!! those are awesome finds and saves me a ton of hunting!!!
And yes, I find that most of my ancestors (most of everyone's I'm sure) are quite liberal with their ages on the census records. Even deaths are recorded incorrectly many times; I've had to suspend age ranges often to be able to find the right person! :)
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In Jane’s case she appears to have been 4 years older than her husband and may have chosen to round her age down a bit for obvious vanity reasons. But in general, in Ireland in the 1800s, people didn’t celebrate birthdays and often had little exact idea of their age. When officialdom required one they just guessed. And of course with a death, the position is even worse. The informant has only 3rd hand information. No proof of age was required, the informant gave a guesstimate and so ages on death certificates at that period could be out by up to 10 years or more (for someone who had died in their 60s or 70s).
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thanks for that re: ages on records. I've found the same thing!
I've been quite busy today, having found several GV records as well as information from the 1831 census which fits quite well with my extracted record from the 1851 census for Dorothy.
From Dorothy's record:
Residence Year:1851
Residence Place: Londonderry, Ireland
Parish: Tamlaght O'Crilly
Barony: Loughinsholin
Townland: Moneystagharr Ellis
GV 1859 for Jane
Occupier: Jane Jones
Lessor: Julius Casement
County: Londonderry
Barony: Loughinsholin
Union: Magherafelt
Parish: Tamlaght O´Crilly
Townland: Moneystaghanellis
*note that Dorothy's wedding was recorded in Magherafelt
There are also 2 GV 1859 records for a William Stewart (also in same Townland). I originally thought that this might be the eldest sibling of Dorothy. However, I found him in the 1861 Scotland census; he is living on the same street as his brother James. William's first child was born around 1853 in Ireland. His second child, Susan, was reportedly born in Dundee Scotland in 1855. I don't find a record for her, unless she was also born in Ireland (or perhaps while they were traveling?). The 3rd child was Margaret around 1857 and the fourth child was Dorothea, born in Dundee, in 1859, and the 5th child was Amelia born in 1864. William died in 1863.
I'm at a loss how to find marriage and death records in Ireland...any suggestions?
Jen
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Possibility? Jane Stewart, widow of James, died 1900-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1900/05764/4628909.pdf
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Firstly, a small correction to post no 9 above. I said the 1901 Scottish census had Dorothea, Thomas J & John. It was Dorothea, Thomas J and David J. (Ages unchanged). Sorry about that.
Secondly, Dorothea Walker aged 2 was also staying with the family in that same census. Presumably Elizabeth’s daughter. Dorothea Walker is back with her parents in Possilpark in 1911, together with a couple of siblings and some Walker relatives. 644/7 14/1
I noticed an Andrew McMordie death in St Rollox in 1906, aged 2. That’s presumably a child of one of the males in the McMordie family. Might give you a lead on another part of the tree. St Rollox 644/6 45.
1911 census has John McMurdie 28, plus wife Barbara 28 and 3 children. Possilpark 644/7 14/6. Presumably Thomas John. There’s a marriage for John McMordie to Barbara Campbell in 1904 St Rollox. 644/6 95.
You mention that William Stewart had a child in Ireland in 1853 before moving to Dundee. Are you looking for his marriage? The details should be on his daughter Amelia’s birth certificate in 1864. (Details of parents marriage location and date were normally recorded on Scottish birth certificates in 1855 and from 1861 onwards.) Assuming it was post 1845 and not an RC ceremony, the marriage should be on the GRONI site that I gave you a link to previously.
Regarding deaths in Ireland, statutory death registration only started in 1864, so it’s hard (and often impossible) to find a death for someone who died before that, unless you find a gravestone or mention in a newspaper. The one exception is the Church of Ireland which did keep burial records. I asked previously what denomination the Stewart family were, and this was why. Having said that, I see now that Tamlaght O’Crilly Church of Ireland early records were lost in the 1922 fire, so they have virtually nothing before the 1890s. But the denomination might help a little in identifying likely graveyards.
It’s been mentioned that Dorothy and her siblings were apparently staying with their grandfather Thomas Jones in 1851. You would wonder why? Could both her parents have been dead? (Or the mother anyway). So they went to stay with their grandparents.
I looked for a death for Thomas Jones in the Magherafelt area 1864 to 1901 but did not find one. Presumably he died 1851 – 1863.
Regarding Andrew McMurdy, I searched for a death in Ireland 1864 to 1901 but did not find one. Andrew is not with Dorothea in the 1901 Scottish census. That’s apparent from the indexes. However have you checked the census itself to confirm she was a widow? They might just have gone their separate ways. In which case she’ll be shown as married. Or if it says widow, then you know where you are. You have her death certificate from 1933. Presumably it confirms she was a widow at that date? I haven’t really looked for a death post 1901, but if you are looking for his death, then you should check he was dead, on the 1901 & 1911 censuses.
What other marriages & deaths in Ireland are you trying to find?
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Possibility? Jane Stewart, widow of James, died 1900-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1900/05764/4628909.pdf
thanks! appreciate you looking! It is an interesting find. I'm sure they're related in some way. will see if I can figure out how :)
Looking for Jane, spouse of John. I assume they'd have been born in the range of 1800-1810 or so, give or take a few years on either side, as James was born around 1834 and older brother William around 1831 given their ages on death records/census' in Scotland. My James Stewart (son of John & Jane) and his wife Margaret died in Scotland.
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Wow Elwyn, Lots of great info! Really appreciate it!
Here's what I have relative to what you've found. I'd found Dorothea Walker age 2 in the 1901 census. Yes, I agree it must be Elizabeth's daughter. Hadn't found the 1911 census yet so will look for that.
I also agree Andrew McMordie death in 1906 must be child of one of the males in the family. will take a look. I have found death record for Andrew McMordie's Sr. (Dorothea Stewart's husband), indexed in 1900 (death was Dec 1899). Explains why he's not in the 1901 census, and pins down their move to Scotland as prior to 1899. Will take a look at the marriage of John McMurdie. I agree that it could be Thomas John (unless there is a birth for a John that we're missing) as the age is about 2 years younger than expected.
As for William Stewart, I do have his wife's name from a few certificates which I've downloaded (records for Scotland, though expensive, are quite easy); this includes his death record from 1863. His wife was also born in Ireland (as per census records). Her name was Jane McKelvy/McKelvie depending on the record. Was mostly curious on finding the marriage record to see what information it might have had as I've never seen a record from Ireland.
I'm more curious in general how to find Ireland marriage records if any exist to see if I can find marriages for the siblings of James, Dorothy and William. From your response, I gather that that might prove very unlikely. I would still need to track down what happened to John Jr, Richard, and Mary Ann. Not certain what denomination they were in Ireland (whether Church of Ireland or Presbyterian). James and Margaret White were the only ones marrying in Scotland so far. They married in the Scottish Episcopal Church (not Church of Scotland). Not sure what that means though.
As to the report for the 1851 census. I'm curious about that as well. Dorothy did state that they were living with their grandfather Thomas Jones. Wondering if parents were alive or not. I believe Jane Jones was alive as there is a Griffiths Valuation for same townland in 1859 showing her leasing a house. No Thomas or John in that record, so I assume both had passed by that point (and perhaps Jane was left her father's house? Or John was alive, but the house is in Jane's name because it was her father's?; even so, would expect that John would be leasing land as he was a farmer?). There is a William also listed in the townland. I had thought it was Jane/John's son, but he was already in Scotland by 1859. So perhaps it is a brother of John? Or perhaps John's father (John & Jane's first son was William, so given naming patterns, this is a possibility)?
Would have loved to find death records for Jane Stewart (nee Jones), John Stewart, and Thomas Jones, but even having an idea of graveyards would be helpful.
Thanks so much for letting me "pick your brain" and expertise on this. I'm great with Scotland's records, but a bit lost when it comes to Ireland.
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If the Jones family in Moneystaughan (Ellis) is your family, then according to the 1831 census they were Church of Ireland. Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church (after which she’d usually attend her husband’s). So, if we have the right family, Jane was probably baptised and married in Tamlaght O’Crilly Church of Ireland. Her baptism and marriage are both well before the start of statutory registration (1845 for non RC marriages and 1864 for births) and so you won’t find a marriage or birth certificate for her. You might have found her in the church records but that particular church’s early records were destroyed in 1922 in the fire in Dublin. So sadly, there is probably be no record of her birth or marriage for you to find.
As you know, a Jane Jones appears in Griffiths for Moneystaughan (Ellis) in 1859. She had plot 4C (a) a labourer or weaver’s cottage on the McIntyre farm. The Valuation Revision records (on the PRONI website) take that information forward. They show Jane’s name was deleted in the period 1860-1863, suggesting that she may have died. (The property remained vacant after her departure). If she died pre 1.1.1864 there will be no death certificate, and the church burial records have been destroyed.
Going by the 1831 census, 2 of the Stewart families in that townland were Presbyterian (William and Andrew) and 1 RC (Henry).
The Tamlaght O’Crilly RC parish is called Greenlough. Their baptism and marriage records don’t start till 1846. Unusually for an RC parish they have some burial records for the period 1846 – 1870. (They are on-line free on the nli site).
There are 2 Presbyterian Churches in Tamlaght O’Crilly. Boveady’s records start in 1841 & Churchtown in 1840. There is also a Reformed Presbyterian church in the parish at Drumbolg. It’s baptism records don’t start till 1895. Copies of the above records are in PRONI in paper format, but I don’t think they are on-line anywhere.
So the position with the Stewart family is that whether they were Presbyterian or RC, John’s birth is before the start of any surviving records. If he was RC and died post 1846 you might find a burial record. If Presbyterian, you might find Dorothy’s baptism c 1844 (and that of any later siblings). But to search those records you will probably have to go to PRONI (or get someone to do that for you).
Going back to the pension application information from 1915, you will note that Dorothy’s first application (received 22.11.1915) stated she had been living in Moneystaughan Ellis in 1851. The form is noted “not found” indicating that the 1851 census for that townland had been checked but her family weren’t found there. So she re-applied (appln received 1.12.1915), and this time she listed 5 possible townlands. None of them proved correct either. However we still have the benefit of the information listed on her applications. The listing of 6 different townlands indicates that her family were probably labourers/weavers. Farmers tend to stay put and so there would often be no uncertainty about where a person had been living in 1851 as they would have usually been there for years. However labourers often moved around to follow available work and so may have had a number of homes, often for just a season or two, in the same general area. So the listing of a total of 6 townlands is indicative of an agricultural labourer’s way of life, for the Jones family anyway. (And the Jane Jones in Moneystaughan was in a labourer’s cottage).
Labourers and weavers tended not to have the money to pay for a gravestone, and so were often buried without one. So there may not be any Jones gravestones with these family listed on them. But I may be wrong. Sometimes a relative (in America for example) paid to have one erected.
The Stewart/McKelvie marriage looks to have taken place on 2.1.1850 and was registered in Ballymena. Groom is listed as William Stuart and the bride as Jane McCelvey. You can view that certificate on the GRONI site for £2.50. (I gave the link in an earlier post). The format of Irish marriage certificates mirrored English ones and do not contain as much information as Scottish ones.
The Scottish Episcopal church is their equivalent to the Church of England and Church of Ireland.
I’ll come back to you later after I have had time to research some of the other points you have raised.
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jen5525,
I tried to identify the Stewart family church. Tradition being to marry in the bride’s church, it’s normally very useful to see where a female married. Dorothea’s was in Magherafelt Register Office. That often suggests a mixed marriage. So I am none the wiser about either party’s denomination. Her townland was Ballymacombs, Bellaghy. Her father John was a Gardener. (You thought he was a farmer. It seems not).
William Stewart/Stuart’s marriage was in Ahoghill 1st Presbyterian. Both lived in Craignageeragh, Ahoghill. William was a weaver. His father John was a labourer (again not a farmer). Ahoghill 1st would normally be the bride’s church, and is unlikely to be the Stewart family’s normal church as there are plenty nearer Moneystaughan.
I think the family moved to Scotland after 1891 as they don’t appear in that census. Elizabeth & Jane both married in Scotland in 1897, so they had arrived by that date (and presumably a bit before it). So we are probably looking at 1891 to 1895 for the move. (They may not all have gone together of course).
You would like to know what happened to John jr, Richard & Mary Ann Stewart. If any died before 1864, we may not find that. I looked for marriages for Mary Ann & Richard but did not find any in the period 1845 – 1865. There were about 25 John Stewart matches. A bit too many to go through. I looked in the 1901 Irish census for a Richard Stewart/Stuart of the age but did not see one. He was either dead or living outside Ireland then.
Thinking again about the Griffiths information, the Jane Jones in 1859 was unlikely to be the mother of Dorothea. She’d be Jane Stewart then, not Jane Jones. The lady in Griffiths could be Thomas Jones’ widow, or some other relation, but she was not John Stewart’s wife.
A husband and wife would generally look after their own children. That the children were with their maternal grandfather in 1851 suggests that at least one, if not both were either dead, or unable to look after their family. There’s no obvious way of checking though.
Some of the Stewarts were labourers and weavers. Weaving tended to be seasonal work that a labourer did in the winter months when there was no labouring work available. They wove at home on portable hand looms, such as are still used today in the Outer Hebrides to make Harris Tweed. Their weaving skills were often a key factor in the decision to move to Dundee. It was built on the 3 Js. (Jute, Jam & Journalism). Hemp was imported from Bengal to Dundee where it was woven into jute sacks and other similar products. Huge jute mills sprang up in the 1800s and they needed weavers. If you look closely at the Dundee censuses in the mid to late 1800s, a quarter of the population was born in Ireland.
You mentioned William Stewart’s 1855 child, supposedly born in Dundee, that you cannot locate. You wonder if it was born on the way over. I can’t say it wasn’t but it’s not a big journey. If William and Jane lived near Ahoghill, there was a railway station a couple of miles away at Ballymena (opened in 1848) and a train into Belfast in the mid 1850s would have taken about 90 minutes. There were regular sailings from Belfast to Glasgow. The fares were very cheap as the main business was cargo and passengers were just top-up revenue. Arriving in Glasgow there were trains to Dundee (from the mid 1840s) taking about 3 hours. So you could leave Ahoghill in the late afternoon and be in Dundee by lunchtime the next day. I doubt many babies were born on that type of short migration. If you can’t find it in the 1855 birth records, it could be that it was born in Ireland (and the place of birth is wrong in the census) or perhaps born in Scotland in 1854, in which case you need to check church records on Scotlandspeople. If born in Scotland in 1855 (the 1st year of statutory birth registration in Scotland) it’s a real bonus as those certificates contain a lot of additional information about the parents. A requirement that was dropped after that 1st year as the work was too onerous. If the child was born in the Ahoghill area, then there are 3 Presbyterian churches, 1 Church of Ireland and 1 RC church there. All have baptism records for the 1850s, save for Ahoghill 3rd Presbyterian which has none earlier than 1859. Copies of the baptism records are in PRONI in Belfast but I don’t think they are on-line anywhere. So you need to get someone to look them up for you.
Regarding possible burial sites for the Stewart family, all I can suggest is that you check the Church of Ireland and Presbyterian graveyards in Tamlaght O’Crilly. But as I have said, if the family were labourers/weavers, they may not have a gravestone. And you won’t find any burial records for unmarked graves in the 1800s.
This is a link to a local family history site which covers the Tamlaght O’Crilly area. You might find it helpful.
http://www.magheragenealogy.org
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thank you so very much for all of this information. I so appreciate all of your help! What you've provided definitely fits with the family as I know it.
I can say with a high degree of confidence that the family was not RC as no other family member going forward has been RC. James Stewart and Margaret White were married in Episcopal Church of Scotland, as was James' first son John. The next son to marry was William who married in the Free Church of Scotland. Thereafter, most seem to marry in the Established Church of Scotland. So, would be quite a shock to find that this line was RC in Ireland. Though looking back at the 1831 census, the Jones and Stewart families were one of very few Presbyterians. Hmmm. Wonder what that was like? Could that have explained the move to Scotland? (though I know the famine in the 1840s/early 1850s probably played a role as well).
As far as the family's occupation, weaver definitely fits. James and William (sons of John & Jane) were both weavers after the move to Scotland. On James' marriage in 1855, he lists his father John's occupation as Weaver. However, in later records the occupation listed changes. On William's death record in 1863, it lists Laborer. In James' death in 1907, it lists Farmer. In Dorothea's death in 1933, it lists Gardener.
As for pinning down a date of death for John and Jane. I think your hunch about the Griffiths might be correct. My assumption is that John died earlier than 1859 and that Jane died in the range when she was removed from the role (unless she moved to Scotland?). Can't find a death for her there that fits though. Scotland records usually list if the parents are deceased on the records, but I've found that to be inaccurate; many times they are not listed as deceased when they actually are; and in a few cases I've found them still living even though an early record indicates they are deceased. So...this should be taken with a grain of salt, but for James' marriage in 1855 and William's death in 1863, neither parent is listed as deceased.
Now another question I have pertains to the William listed on the 1831 census and 1859 Griffiths records. First, in the 1859 Griffiths, 2 Williams are listed. The first is as renting a cottage from the same landlord as Jane Jones. The second is listed as the landlord for 2 renters. Are these 2 different William's do you think? (would seem strange if you were a land owner to then lease a cottage from someone else). And wondering how this/these Williams relate to John? I'm sure there's no way to know for sure, but could be John's father or brother. I've ruled out John's son William as he was already in Scotland.
A last question (more a musing really). I'm curious how the Stewarts wound up in Ireland. My assumption is that they must have originated in Scotland at some point; would love to know when they might have gone to Ireland. I can say with fair confidence that John Stewart and Jane Jones did not marry in Scotland.
Also a bit curious as to how this might fit in to the puzzle...On the upper left corner of the request for the extracted 1851 census for Dorothea, it notes "Scotch" and a number. I assume because the family originated in Scotland. but not sure what meaning to ascribe to it, if any.
Will look into ordering some of the records that you think might be accessible. Thanks so very much for the leads!
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jen5525,
Thinking again about the Griffiths information, the Jane Jones in 1859 was unlikely to be the mother of Dorothea. She’d be Jane Stewart then, not Jane Jones. The lady in Griffiths could be Thomas Jones’ widow, or some other relation, but she was not John Stewart’s wife. A husband and wife would generally look after their own children. That the children were with their maternal grandfather in 1851 suggests that at least one, if not both were either dead, or unable to look after their family. There’s no obvious way of checking though.
You mentioned William Stewart’s 1855 child, supposedly born in Dundee, that you cannot locate. If you can’t find it in the 1855 birth records, it could be that it was born in Ireland (and the place of birth is wrong in the census) or perhaps born in Scotland in 1854, in which case you need to check church records on Scotlandspeople.
As to the above 2 points. That makes sense about Jane Jones to some extent; however, if she were Thomas' widow, wouldn't she have also been listed on the 1851 with the other family members? Same goes for her parents; it does seem curious that Dorothea listed all of her siblings and included her maternal grandfather on the 1851 but did not include her parent's names in that list. I do agree it's likely that both have passed at that point, and that the Jane Jones in the 1859 is another relative. Or, Jane Stewart reverted to her maiden name on John's death? Or had left the children behind and moved with John elsewhere around that time? I often see grandchildren with their grandparents in a census and then later they are back with their parents (e.g., Dorothea Walker & her mom Elizabeth). I suppose we'll never know :)
I've done a search for Susan Stewart (also under Stuart) from 1851 to 1861 in all possible records (including RC). There were only 2 possibilities. In 1861 (way too late) there is a Margaret Susan but the next child is Margaret Jane, so that's not her. In 1854, there is a Susan Hastings Stewart; parents are William Stewart and Jane McConnel (possibly her, McConnel is not so far from McKelvie) but the birth was in Holywood which is no where near Dundee but I suppose could have been on the way from Ireland to Dundee? I don't have a lot of confidence that that is her.
Thanks for all of the additional information; very helpful for putting this into historical context. Will check into all of your links :)
Jen
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You ask whether being Presbyterian would have been a factor in the move to Scotland. I don’t think so. In the 1850s, Protestants significantly outnumbered Roman Catholics in Co. Londonderry. They still do today. So I doubt your family would have felt obliged to leave on minority religious grounds. In the 1901 census there were 144,823 people in the county. 64,762 were RC. The rest were protestant of one denomination or other. So about a 60-40 majority. I don't have the figures for the 1851 census but expect they were in similar proportions. Economic factors were the main reason why people left Ireland, in the mid 1800s, not religious discrimination.
You seem curious as to why your family went to Scotland. Ireland lacks natural resources. No coal, oil, iron ore etc, and so apart from a modest amount of shipbuilding in Belfast and the Belfast linen mills (which mostly only employed women), it did not really get the industrial revolution that benefited England and Scotland where mills, steelworks, ship building, coal mining and all their support industries were major employers creating hundreds of thousands of new jobs. Much better paid than subsistence farming or weaving. Added to that you had the effects of a massive population explosion in Ireland – up from 3 million in 1750 to 8 million in 1841 (no-one is really sure of the reasons why but reduced neo-natal deaths seem to be a factor) and the famine. So some push factors and some pull factors saw huge numbers of people leave Ireland. Something like 8 million people emigrated from Ireland in the 1800s. In the late 1840s, the famine was also a driver, but folk had been pouring out of the country all through the 1800s. All the famine did was speed the flow up a bit.
Scotland was a particularly popular place to go to work because it was easy and very cheap to get to. Several sailings every day from Belfast, plus regular sailings from Portrush, Ballycastle and Londonderry. People working in Scotland could come home for weddings or the harvest, as well as holidays (Glasgow used to shut down for 2 weeks every July, known as the Glasgow Fair holiday and there would then be a huge exodus to Ireland). You could also send children back to stay with grandparents, thereby leaving the wife free to work. You couldn’t do all those things so easily from Australia, America or Canada. For Presbyterians, Scotland also had the benefit of being culturally very close as well as geographically very close. Something that persists to this day, in religion, music eg piping, sport etc. The experience and welcome offered to a Presbyterian from Ireland was generally much better than that given to a Roman Catholic. For further information see:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/guides/zr6ycdm/revision/2
Scottish Registrars have to rely on the informant’s information. There will be mistakes. Not every informant for a death is going to get the deceased’s parents names or ages right. I have seen mistakes too, but overall they aren’t bad at all. With 2 certificates to rely on, I would accept that John Stewart and his wife Jane were both alive in 1855 and 1863. (And consequently my assumption about why their children were living with their grandfather in 1851 must be wrong). Death registration in Ireland started in 1864 so we have to hope they survived till that year. Death certificates from 1878 onwards are on-line free on the irishgenealogy site. I don’t see one for John Stewart in the Magherafelt registration area post 1878. There are 2 in 1864 - 1877 that could fit (1865 aged 71, and 1875 aged 75). Likewise with Jane Stewart I didn’t see any death post 1878 that fitted. I see 3 possibles in the period 1864 to 1877. 1864 (aged 83); 1869 (aged 70) & 1871 (aged 78). You would need to pay to view them on the GRONI site to see if they are your family.
Re the 1851 census extract and the comment “Scotch”, I don’t think the Dorothy’s possible Scottish origins would be a reason for that. I think it was because she now lived in Scotland. You can trawl through the pension applications, looking at those who lived outside Ireland. I found 2 in Wales that were marked “NE” in the top left hand corner. Another in Australia was marked “NSW” (ie New South Wales). I think they were just noting where applicants lived. To qualify you had to be 70 or over, born in the UK and Ireland, have an income of £30 p.a. or less and be of good conduct. It didn’t matter whether you were Scotch, Welsh or whatever.
I am reaching the 5000 character limit for each post, so I’ll continue this in a separate post.
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Regarding the 2 William Stewart entries in Griffiths in Moneystaghan Ellis, there’s only the 1 William Stewart. On plot 19a you have William with a farmhouse and just under 10 acres of land. He has two labourer’s cottages on his farm which he sublets. One to William Farrell (19b) and the other to John Egleson (19c). So William is listed once as a tenant and once as a landlord. Most farms had a few labourers cottages. The labourer could pay rent to the farmer in cash or by an agreed number of days labour on the farm each year, or a mix of the two.
Can’t really help you with answering how William might be related to John without knowing more about him eg age and marital status. Looking backwards 30 years, in the tithe applotment records for 1833, there were 2 Stuart farms in Moneystaghan. One held by James and the other by William. But those records don’t tell us how those 2 people are related.
http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/derry/tithe-applotments/tamlaght-o-crilly-parish.php#.XCifTxSqCns
Looking forward, using the Valuation Revision records on the PRONI site, I see that William Stewart is replaced by Henry Stewart in 1874 and at the same time William become tenant of one of the cottages (now renumbered 20a). So it looks as though he retired and his son Henry took over. The other cottage, occupied by John Egleson, is deleted, being described as “down.” In other words it has collapsed or been demolished. William Stewart is deleted as tenant of the cottage in 1882. So you could search the deaths around that time to see if you can identify him.
Here’s Henry in the 1901 census. The family were Presbyterian:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Claudy/Money_Staghan_Ellis/1542591/
I had a look for daughter Lizzie’s birth but could not find it. (The ages look a but suspect in the census, and I checked back to 1864 but without success). And looking at her age in the 1911 census, she was probably born c 1860, before birth registration began. You might get her mother’s name from church baptism records though. But that would require a visit to PRONI.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Clady/Moneystaghan_Ellis/608839/
The daughter appears to have died in 1948. Probate abstract:
Stewart Elizabeth of Moneystaghan Ellis Portglenone P.O. county Londonderry spinster died 22 February 1948 Probate Belfast 27 April to Robert Moore labourer and Joseph Samuel Smyth farmer. Effects £122 10s.
You suggested that Jane Jones might be the widowed Jane Stewart reverting to her maiden name. That’s not something I have ever seen in Ireland. A widow normally retains her married name.
I don’t think the Holywood born Susan Stewart is likely to be your family. Bear in mind too that there was no statutory birth registration in Ireland in 1854. The vast majority of church records are not on-line (especially for Presbyterian churches). Roman Catholic records are available on-line and some Protestant churches have their baptisms on-line but the vast majority do not. If Susan was born in Ireland, in 1854, I’d search the records for Ahoghill (where her parents had lived) but none of those records are on-line. You need to go to PRONI to look them up.
I would think that the “gave birth en rote” answer is unlikely. It took less than a day to get from Ahoghill to Dundee. The likelihood of giving birth in the middle of the journey does not seem very high to me.
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Thank you so much for all of the time and effort you've put into this! It's more than I could have expected or hoped for! Such useful information you've uncovered. Will have to have a go at having someone look up PRONI records at some point.
A few of your points have gotten me thinking. ;)
Regarding the 2 William Stewart entries in Griffiths in Moneystaghan Ellis, there’s only the 1 William Stewart. On plot 19a you have William with a farmhouse and just under 10 acres of land. He has two labourer’s cottages on his farm which he sublets. One to William Farrell (19b) and the other to John Egleson (19c). So William is listed once as a tenant and once as a landlord. Most farms had a few labourers cottages. The labourer could pay rent to the farmer in cash or by an agreed number of days labour on the farm each year, or a mix of the two.
You suggested that Jane Jones might be the widowed Jane Stewart reverting to her maiden name. That’s not something I have ever seen in Ireland. A widow normally retains her married name.
I don’t think the Holywood born Susan Stewart is likely to be your family. Bear in mind too that there was no statutory birth registration in Ireland in 1854. The vast majority of church records are not on-line (especially for Presbyterian churches). Roman Catholic records are available on-line and some Protestant churches have their baptisms on-line but the vast majority do not. If Susan was born in Ireland, in 1854, I’d search the records for Ahoghill (where her parents had lived) but none of those records are on-line. You need to go to PRONI to look them up.
I would think that the “gave birth en rote” answer is unlikely. It took less than a day to get from Ahoghill to Dundee. The likelihood of giving birth in the middle of the journey does not seem very high to me.
Thanks for clarifying there weren't 2 separate William Stewarts; that's extremely helpful! I'm still at a loss as to why he was a tenant of someone else if he owned a farm with cottages on it. Why wouldn't he have lived in one of those instead of leasing his house from another person?
I agree it's not a common practice for the women to revert back to her maiden name; however, I've seen it a number of times in Scotland. Sometimes even while still living in the same house as her husband, a wife would have been recorded on census with her maiden name; sometimes when the husband is absent in the census (e.g., just leaves), I've seen them recorded under the maiden name. I've seen it after a death as well. So it was a thought. Though definitely unlikely :)
I agree that it's likely the record I found isn't the correct Susan Stewart. Will definitely check in Ireland. It does seem with such a short trip it's not likely she gave birth "en route." Not sure of whether the route they would have taken from Ireland to Dundee might have gone through Holywood. There is a 2 year gap between Susan's birth and the next child, Margaret. Could they have originally settled for a while in Holywood before moving on to Dundee? Not critical to my research either way; just more curious than anything.
Thanks also for all the information provided about the travel back and forth between Scotland and Ireland; gives me a better understanding of the historical context which I'm only starting to get into researching. My question was not only about what made them go to Scotland; but what made them go BACK to Scotland. I know with the information I have right now, I have no way of knowing for sure, but my assumption is that they originated in Scotland at some point, particularly with the surname of Stewart. How many generations before John that would have been is uncertain since I've no way of knowing if John was born in Scotland or not, and where in Scotland to even begin looking. The brief look into history I've had would suggest that there was a migration to Ireland from Scotland during the settling of the Ulster plantations.
Again so very much appreciate your help :)
Jennifer
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Jennifer,
Re William Stewart and his farm, he didn’t own it outright. He was a tenant farmer, renting from the Casements. He owned the stock, grain, tools and domestic furniture but the buildings and land belonged to someone else. That was the normal arrangement in Ireland. Very few farmers owned their land outright, mostly because landowners wouldn’t sell. It was part of the many grievances that people had over land ownership in Ireland for 200 years or more. By the 1860s, provided he paid his rent and maintained the farm, he probably had indefinite security of tenure, but he didn’t own the farm. He could sell the unexpired part of the lease plus his assets, so it had a cash value, but as I say he didn’t own the buildings and land. The Casements owned that. (The ability to buy farms with Government funded mortgages was introduced around 1903 with Wyndham’s Land Act and only then could farmers routinely buy the freehold).
I’d guess that in 1874 cottage 19b became vacant and so William retired to it, leaving Henry in the main farm house. Just a guess but could be what happened.
The likely route to Dundee would have been from Ballymena station to Belfast York Rd station where they would have got a jaunting car to the ship to Glasgow (a quarter of a mile or less). The ships to Glasgow usually went overnight, though there were some day sailings. Holywood is some 5 miles away on the other side of Belfast, on the way to Bangor. Not somewhere you would routinely stop on the way to a ship in Belfast docks. (I looked in the 1901 census and there were 37 people named Susan Stewart living in Ireland at that date, so it’s a fairly common name).
I looked on Scotlandspeople and I don’t see any Episcopalian records for Dundee in their collection. So if the family were of that denomination the baptism records are either still with the church, or are lost. So Susan may have been born in Dundee c 1854 but there is no record on Scotlandspeople.
Your Stewarts are most likely to have arrived in the Magherafelt area in the 1600s. That’s when the vast majority of Scots arrived. So there’s probably between 4 and 8 generations back to the first generation to settle there. Unfortunately the records don't go back anywhere near that far, either here or in Scotland.
In general, the Scots came from the counties below a line from Glasgow to Dundee. Many came from Ayrshire and adjacent counties, such as Wigtown, Renfrew, Dumfries, Kirkcudbright, and so on. (It's very close. On most days you can clearly see the Scottish coast from Antrim. In the 1600s when there was trouble, the Scots settlers in Ireland used to light fires on the Antrim hills, as a signal, and Scots would jump in their boats and come over to assist).
DNA testing might find you some Scottish roots, but I am not sure how reliable that is if you are going back over 400 years.
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Wow! That’s such interesting information! Thanks so much. I’ve been toying with the idea of having male cousins with the Stewart surname do the Y DNA testing. May follow up and do that :)
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Just a note that I FOUND Mary Ann Stewart!!! I did a broad search in the 1861 Scotland census on Ancestry looking for anyone named Mary Ann living on the same street as her 2 brothers (William and James). And I got a hit.
Mary Ann Comtnay, with husband Thomas and children Nancy (1854) and James (1857). All born in Ireland. Cross referenced with scotland's people because of the weird spelling. Indexed as Courtnay. Searched for each of them on Ancestry and came up with another 1851 census extraction request and Nancy Courtney came up. Her parents were Thomas Courtney and Mary Ann Stewart! And...on the form, it lists the head of household as John & Jane Stewart!!!! In Tamlaght O'Crilly.
I then searched and found Thomas and Mary's marriage (indexed as Thomas Courtenay) in 1853. In the same parish, Ahoghill in Co. Antrim, as brother William's 1850 marriage. The townland is also the same for both records...can't read it, but it's Craig...? Mary Ann's father is listed as John, a laborer. So I think the family was no longer in Tamlaght O'Crilly in 1851 (which is why they couldn't find them in the 1851 census look-ups?). Perhaps I should be searching Griffith's in that area instead? And, I now have a bride's church. Does that help pin down their denomination? And might you know how I can find out if there are records for this church?
Registration district
Ballymena
Place of marriage
St Colmanells Church of Ireland, Ahoghill
Date of marriage
9th May 1853
Groom details
Groom name(s)
Thomas Courtenay
Age at marriage of groom
21
Bride details
Bride name(s)
Mary Anne Stewart
Age at marriage of bride
18
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That’s a good find and does suggest the family may have been living there in the early 1850s. The townland was Craignageeragh which is about halfway between Portglenone and Ahoghill village. On the modern Craignageeragh Rd. It’s about 6 or 7 miles from Moneystaghan Ellis.
The choice of church does usually indicate the bride’s denomination. St Colmanell’s is Church of Ireland (Episcopalian). So it looks as though the Stewarts were Church of Ireland. St Colmanell’s is in use to this day. It’s baptism and marriage records start in 1811, and burials in 1821.
According to my guide to Church of Ireland records, the church doesn’t have the old records. They have given them to PRONI in Belfast. They are not on-line so you need to get someone to go there for you to look them up.
I looked in Griffiths for Craignageeragh in 1862 but there were no Stewart households listed then. Nor any in the 1901 census of the townland. So it looks as though those still in Ireland had moved on by 1862. I mentioned previously that labourers often moved around to follow available work and your family clearly followed that pattern.
Both Nancy Courteney and Dorothy Stewart thought that the family were in Co. Londonderry in 1851. They both list Innisrush as the family residence then (with Dorothy adding some others). Neither mentions Ahoghill, which makes me think that the family must have lived in Co. Derry for a period of time. Whether they originated there I can’t say. I haven’t seen any census information that tells us for certain. The Jones family are there in the 1831 census but it’s unclear whether your Stewarts were also there, and crucially whether they were born there.
The 1911 Scottish census often contains a specific place of birth (as opposed to just Ireland). Always worth checking that for Dorothy and any siblings alive there that year.
If the Stewart family had moved to the Ahoghill area, then a death would be registered in Ballymena. I had a look at the records for the period 1864 – 1873. I saw about 8 John Stewarts in the indexes in their 60s or 70s, who could be your family. There were 2 Janes. None of those certificate sis viewable free yet. The only way to find out whether they might be your family would be to pay to view them on the GRONI site, which costs £2.50 a time.
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Hi Elwyn,
Thanks so much. I was very excited by the find of Mary Ann Stewart. I found an addition birth, Jean, in 1859 for her and husband Thomas in Dundee Scotland, indexed as Curtney. Child was not in 1861 census and there is a death recorded in 1860 for the child. I was able to find Thomas and son James (but not Mary Ann or Nancy) in 1871 census.
After much hunting, I did find Nancy's death (remember I had the 1851 census extraction request for her in 1920ish where she was living in Dundee). Found her death in 1928 under Agnes Courtney (single) with the correct parents. Found James' marriage in 1881 with correct parents, neither listed as deceased. So, went on a mad hunt for Mary Ann, but could find absolutely no trace of her. Finally thought to search for Thomas Courtney's death. Found it in 1893. Listed him as widower of Mary Ann Stewart and of Bridget O'Neil. Hmm. So checked when he married Bridget. Marriage found in 1861!! Ok, so Mary Ann is in 1861 census and then he marries Bridget the same year. Can't find a death for Mary Ann under Stewart/Courtney (and variants) in Scotland that would fit. I can find no trace of Nancy/Agnes in 1871 as well. She'd have been around 16/17 years old. they only thought I have is that perhaps Mary Ann and Nancy/Agnes traveled back to Ireland in 1861, where Mary Ann died and Nancy stayed with family before coming back? She re-appears in the 1881 census and has had a daughter age 5 months. Child is born out of marriage (father is listed on the birth record, James McLaughlan); they remain together with the father, and she has several other children. I have her in 1881, 1891, and 1901. Downloaded her 1911 census and she's living with 2 of her children and her partner (though she is listed as a boarder). none of my 1911 Scotland Census' list more than "ireland" for place of birth :(. I would also love to know where Nancy was in 1871!
will continue to play around with the databases and see if I can find more :)
thanks again and Happy New Year!
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And just to confuse things possibly...Nancy is often a diminutive of Ann/e.
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And just to confuse things possibly...Nancy is often a diminutive of Ann/e.
I agree. Nancy, Ann & Agnes are all interchangeable in both Ireland and Scotland.
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I assume that Thomas Courtney said he was a widower when he remarried, so that puts the date of Mary Ann’s death firmly into 1861 only, unless he wasn’t telling the truth. I agree I can’t see it in Scotland, let alone in Dundee.
Most people who died in Dundee then were buried in the Howff cemetery. (I have a couple of relatives there myself). I think those records may be on-line somewhere, though I am not sure. If you put a query on a Scottish board here, I am sure someone will know. So you could check for an 1861 burial there for Mary Ann.
Death registration didn’t start till 1864 in Ireland so if Mary Ann happened to die back in Ireland in 1861, there’s no death certificate to search for. If she died in Ahoghill then she might be in the COI burial records but that will require a trip to PRONI to check. She doesn’t appear to have a gravestone in the Ahoghill area. Those gravestones are all on-line on the Braid site and I don't see one for her.
http://thebraid.com/genealogy.aspx
Tracing Nancy in 1871, if she was in Ireland would be very difficult as the 1871 Irish census was destroyed and I can’t think of any other records she might be in. She’d be too old for school attendance records.
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I noticed Tamlaght O'Crilly and Innisrush come up in this thread.
My local churchyard, Tamlaght O'Crilly Lower (near Innisrush) has several Stewarts in the graveyard.
See: https://www.oneirishrover.com/tamlaght-graveyard/ (https://www.oneirishrover.com/tamlaght-graveyard/)
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Thanks so much! Somehow I'd completely missed this post about the graveyard. Will check out the link!
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https://www.fdca.org.uk/Howff_Burials.html
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came up with another 1851 census extraction request and Nancy Courtney came up. Her parents were Thomas Courtney and Mary Ann Stewart! And...on the form, it lists the head of household as John & Jane Stewart!!!! In Tamlaght O'Crilly.
found 2 additional extracts for Nancy Courtney. Not sure if I'm reading it correctly but the last one (attached) doesn't appear to state that the family wasn't found like the other records had. Of course I could be wrong and just overly hopeful...
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Date of Marriage:
19-May-1853
Parish / District:
BALLYMENA
County:
Co. Antrim
Husband
Wife
Name:
Thomas
Courtenay
Mary Anne
Stewart
Address:
Glenhugh
Craignareagh
Denomination:
Church of Ireland
Church of Ireland
Occupation:
WEAVER
Age:
21
18
Status:
Bachelor (Previously unmarried)
Spinster (Previously unmarried)
Husband's Father
Wife's Father
Name:
John
Courtenay
John
Stewart
Address:
Denomination:
Occupation:
WEAVER
LABOURER
Husband's Mother
Wife's Mother
Name:
Address:
Denomination:
Occupation:
Witness 1
Witness 2
Name:
Thomas
Kyle
Matthew
Faughender
Address:
Notes:
Church: AHOGHILL Church of Ireland
BY LICENCE REV W TYNELL.
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Hi Maryderry...I'd found that marriage certificate as well! :)
are you researching this family too?