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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Argyllshire => Topic started by: Forfarian on Friday 28 December 18 12:40 GMT (UK)
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I have been sent a descendancy chart involving the 7th Earl of Argyll and his first wife Lady Agnes Douglas, daughter of the 6th Earl of Morton, and have been checking the details against what I can find online.
According to this chart Lady Mary Campbell, daughter of the above couple, married James, 2nd Lord Rollo.
According to Wikipedia, Archibald Campbell and Agnes Douglas had only three children, not including a Mary.
According to the Clan Campbell of North America web site https://www.ccsna.org/archibald-campbell-7th-earl-argyll, the 7th Earl of Argyll had two daughters named Mary. The first one, whose mother was Lady Agnes Douglas, married Sir Robert Montgomery, and the second, whose mother was the Earl's second wife Anne Cornwallis, was the one who married James Rollo. This information is repeated on numerous other web sites.
Can anyone shed light on these obviously contradictory pieces of information?
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Burke's Peerage (Eighth edition 1845) says 7th Earl had son Archibald and 4 daughters (without naming them) by 1st marriage and another son, James, with another daughter (not named) by his second wife.
Not much help I know as more conflicting information.
Ray
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Burke's Peerage (Eighth edition 1845) says 7th Earl had son Archibald and 4 daughters (without naming them) by 1st marriage and another son, James, with another daughter (not named) by his second wife.
Not much help I know as more conflicting information.
Not really. It would appear that Burke didn't see wives and daughters as worthy of his attention!
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Same reference
James 2nd Baron Rollo m. 1st Dorothea, 3rd dau. of John, 4th Earl of Montrose, but had no issue; and 2ndly, Mary, dau. of Archibald, 7th Earl of Argyll, by whom he had 2 sons and a dau.
Ray
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Archibald's second wife, Lady Anne nee Cornwallis died in 1634/35 and her will (PROB11/167/70) does name a daughter Mary. She had other daughters (she leaves money to "each of my other daughters") but does not say how many or give their names. She also mentions a son, giving his name as Lord Kintire. There is no indication if these are her own children or her step-children. But she makes no mention of her husband.
Her executor was Sir Henry Knolles and his wife Katherine was to be paid £100 for 'pious uses.'
I'm trying to find the earl's will - DNB states that the earl died in London and his will was proved 29 November 1638.
There is an illuminated pedigree of the maternal ancestry Lady Elizabeth Campbell, daughter of Archibald & his second wife at the Kent History & Library Centre, but it may not mention her siblings.
Nell
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There was a daughter Anne baptised in 1614 in London. Unfortunately that's the only one I can find at the moment.
Nell
Edit - she was buried a few months later.
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Thanks. Getting there!
Anne Cornwallis' will is useful but can't clinch the question I am looking into because Lady Mary Campbell and James, 2nd Lord Rollo, were reportedly married in 1642, so Anne Cornwallis who died in 1634/1635 wouldn't have been able to describe her daughter as 'wife of xxx'.
What I am really after is some definite proof to say which Lady Mary Campbell was married to James, 2nd Lord Rollo and which Lady Mary Campbell was married to Sir Robert Montgomery of Skelmorlie.
The Mary Campbell/Robert Montgomerie marriage is said in some online sources to have taken place in 1617 and Mary Campbell/James Rollo in 1642.
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This is all only a possibility, but using some logic and likelihoods based on dates and ages, it might be possible to come to a conclusion.
Archibald's first wife died in 1607 and he married Anne Cornwallis in 1609. From the 1635 will it is clear that there is at least one daughter named Mary and she is probably unmarried, since there is no indication of any husband's name.
Let's also take it as true that there were two daughters named Mary, one from the first marriage and the other from the second.
The first Mary must have been born before 1607, while the other definitely after 1609. While marriages took place when couples were as young as 12 and 14, at this date, I think that this is no longer the norm. Archibald was 32 when his first wife died, so maybe married by 20 or so. If this is then applied to his children, then the first Mary (daughter of Anne Douglas) is the one who married Robert Montgomery and the second is the one who married James Rollo.
James Rollo was first married in 1628 and his wife Dorothea did not die until 1638. If the Mary Campbell that he married were the older Mary and this was her first/only marriage, she would have been a very elderly first-time mother when she gave birth to Montgomery's children.
Not proof, but a reasonable conclusion to come to.
Nell
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Arthur Collins, in the Peerage of England Vol 1 p 374 (pub 1735, available on Google Books) states that James the son of Archibald and his second wife Anne Cornwallis was created Lord Kintyre in 1622 by James I/VI. So that pins down the son in the 1635 will.
It also states that their daughter Mary was the one who married James Lord Rollo.
Nell
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Thanks.
Yes, this agrees with most of the online sources that I would regard as carefully researched and therefore credible. The inescapable conclusion is that the chart I have been sent is wrong. As this chart apparently came from Ancestry, I cannot say that I am in the least surprised, but it is useful to have evidence one way or the other.
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Oscar Wilde claimed that Burke's Peerage was the greatest work of fiction published in the English language! ;D
Skoosh.
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Burke's Extinct & Dormant Baronetcies 2nd ed 1841, has Montgomery of Skelmorlie listed.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hw2sbj;view=1up;seq=653 (https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hw2sbj;view=1up;seq=653)
Hope that works.
It is said that Robert Montgomery the younger married Mary Campbell, 4th daughter of Archibald 7th Earl of Argyll and that they had 3 children. It is also said that this Robert died in the lifetime of his father who died in 1651.
Is it not possible that Mary, widow of Robert Montgomery the younger, then married James, 2nd Lord Rollo?
Ray
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Is it not possible that Mary, widow of Robert Montgomery the younger, then married James, 2nd Lord Rollo?
Not if the Rollo/Campbell marriage date of 1642 is correct.
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A quick search of the NAS has quite a bit on the family and mentions spouse(s) and children. Whether its the 6th or 7th Earl, I can not say.
Don
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Montgomery / Campbell marriage contract in 1617
https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/details.aspx?reference=GD3%2f1%2f7%2f2%2f5&st=1&tc=y&tl=n&tn=n&tp=n&k=montgomery+skelmorlie&ko=a&r=&ro=s&df=&dt=&di=y (https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/details.aspx?reference=GD3%2f1%2f7%2f2%2f5&st=1&tc=y&tl=n&tn=n&tp=n&k=montgomery+skelmorlie&ko=a&r=&ro=s&df=&dt=&di=y)
Ray
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According to this https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/details.aspx?reference=GD56%2f143&st=1&tc=y&tl=n&tn=n&tp=n&k=lord+rollo&ko=a&r=&ro=s&df=&dt=&di=y (https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/details.aspx?reference=GD56%2f143&st=1&tc=y&tl=n&tn=n&tp=n&k=lord+rollo&ko=a&r=&ro=s&df=&dt=&di=y)
Lord Rollo's wife was May Campbell who he married in 1642.
May or is it Mary?
Ray
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The 1617 reference is to a marriage contract. There is no indication as to when the marriage will take place. Mary Campbell is described as the youngest lawful daughter of Archibald, Earl of Argyll, at the time of the contract. She may have been a minor.
The 1642 reference to May Campbell daughter of Archibald, 7th Earl of Argyll, and wife of James, 2nd Lord Rollo, refers to her as the daughter of Anne, 2nd wife of Archibald, 7th Earl of Argyll.
These are of course not original documents, only catalogue entries. Should be checked against the original documents.
Is May a name in use in Scotland at this time or is it a typo for Mary?
Ray
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Thank you! That looks like the sort of evidence I was looking for, except that the Rollo/Campbell is a secondary source rather than a primary one - it quotes The Sottish Peerage as the evidence for the marriage.
However the 1617 contract is primary evidence for the Montgomery marriage, and since it was drawn up before the Campbell/Cornwallis marriage it must refer to the Campbell/Douglas daughter.
May is usually used as an alternative for Marjory/Marjorie but it can also be used for Mary.
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However the 1617 contract is primary evidence for the Montgomery marriage, and since it was drawn up before the Campbell/Cornwallis marriage it must refer to the Campbell/Douglas daughter.
Um, no, the Campbell-Cornwallis marriage took place in 1609. It is possible that in 1617 there was only one daughter named Mary, from the Campbell-Douglas marriage. Unfortunately there is no primary evidence yet for a birth of a Mary (which is stated in sources to have taken place cir 1622) from the Campbell-Cornwallis marriage
It is said that Robert Montgomery the younger married Mary Campbell, 4th daughter of Archibald 7th Earl of Argyll and that they had 3 children. It is also said that this Robert died in the lifetime of his father who died in 1651.
Is it not possible that Mary, widow of Robert Montgomery the younger, then married James, 2nd Lord Rollo?
No, I'm afraid that really doesn't work.
Robert Montgomery (who married Mary Campbell) seems to have died in 1647. Mary was married to him until either his death or her death - she cannot have been a widow in 1642 and married James Rollo at that time.
Nell
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Hi
According to https://archive.org/details/houseofargyllcol00glas/page/43/mode/1up The House of Argyll book:
Archibald first married Lady Ann Douglas, and had a son and four daughters - the fourth being Mary, who married Sir Robert Montgomery. He secondly married Ann, daughter of Sir WIlliam Cornwallis of Brome, and had a son (James) and a daughter Mary, who married James, Lord Rollo.
Does this help?
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It does seem to answer the original question. Thank you.
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There might be something in the Register of the Great Seal.