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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: Kenneal67 on Saturday 29 December 18 09:50 GMT (UK)
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Dear All,
I am looking to get a copy of a signature to compare it with that on a marriage certificate.
Does anyone know if it is possible to find a copy of a signature from a Royal Marine 1915 sign up without going all the way to Kew?
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If it’s not a burnt record then it will be on one of the pay websites, (won’t it? )
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I'm not sure what a "Royal Marine" was but Find My Past seem to have some naval records. Whether that includes a signature or not, you would need to check for yourself.
There are people who visit Kew who may be able to assist, or Kew themselves may offer a research service, and if you are sure they hold the records, and you only need a quick lookup, the cost may not be too bad. It would not hurt to sent them an enquiry.
What year did he marry and what was his occupation on the certificate?
I'm sure someone will be able to help you further.
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I don't know
perhaps someone can confirm this for me?
I am looking for the signature of Herbert William Wilkinson RMLI enlisted Plymouth 22nd June 1915 register number 898.
Ken
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FindMyPast has his service record (born 1892) but that does not show his signature.
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Have you got signatures on the original marriage certificate?
The certificates you receive from the GRO will be a copy of the register. Although it doesn't show your ancestors actual signatures it will show if your ancestors could sign their name. Those who couldn't marked with an 'x'.
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Hi Medpat,
Herbert was married in South Africa and we have a copy of that certificate with his signature on it.
We have narrowed Herbert down to 2 or 3 possibilities ( He was English) but we cant be conclusive so are looking for another record with a matching signature.
We had thought he was the same Herbert William born Downham Market in 1892 and this does fit with various other bits of information we have BUT a dna test from ancestry is linking him to a different Wilkinson line from Essex. We cant however find any Herbert Williams in that Essex tree.
We thought we were there but the DNA has muddied the waters so its back to looking for a matching signature
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Do you mean a photocopy of the original or a copy from a central registry because only a photocopy of the original cert. or register will have the correct signatures. A central registry like GRO copy the details and that's what you receive when you send for a copy of a cert..
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Service record shows he was born in Norwich. NOK was originally a sister (Evelyn) in Cape Town but then replaced with a father (W) in Gateshead.
He was a POW in Germany 1917-1918.
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Service record shows he was born in Norwich. NOK was originally a sister (Evelyn) in Cape Town but then replaced with a father (W) in Gateshead.
He was a POW in Germany 1917-1918.
Yes this all fits well but this damned DNA info that has subsequently come to light is linked to a different Wilkinson family and we cant link the two
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Do you mean a photocopy of the original or a copy from a central registry because only a photocopy of the original cert. or register will have the correct signatures. A central registry like GRO copy the details and that's what you receive when you send for a copy of a cert..
We have his actual signature from his South African certificate.
He was a policeman in Fish Hoek
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The RMLI man who was a POW was born 1 March 1892 (from his own service record) in West Dereham Norwich (you wrote Downham Market).
His POW records have 3 references to S Africa (make allowance for the fact that they are made by someone for whom English is not their first language).
First has 7 Clyan St Capslow Africa (sic)
Second has Cape Town Sth Africa
Third has Mrs A Warnes 7 Glervyn Street Cape Town South Africa.
With the reference to a sister in S Africa on his record that Nanny Jan notes, that gives 4 pointers to S Africa. There is also reference on his record to father W in Oldfold St Gateshead. I would ask, never mind the DNA, how well does the other Essex line fit all that?
There will be no other service record for him so no trip to Kew necessary!
MaxD
MaxD
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The RMLI man who was a POW was born 1 March 1892 (from his own service record) in West Dereham Norwich (you wrote Downham Market).
His POW records have 3 references to S Africa (make allowance for the fact that they are made by someone for whom English is not their first language).
First has 7 Clyan St Capslow Africa (sic)
Second has Cape Town Sth Africa
Third has Mrs A Warnes 7 Glervyn Street Cape Town South Africa.
With the reference to a sister in S Africa on his record that Nanny Jan notes, that gives 4 pointers to S Africa. There is also reference on his record to father W in Oldfold St Gateshead. I would ask, never mind the DNA, how well does the other Essex line fit all that?
There will be no other service record for him so no trip to Kew necessary!
MaxD
MaxD
Hi Max,
Indeed a good dose of reality and this is where I had gotten to until the pesky dna reared its head.
I have this information too but not the pow stuff , may I ask where you got it?
This kicks the Essex line into the long grass where it was to start with.
We also have this Herbert William in the 1911 census and he has moved with his father to the N East to Penshaw near Houghton le Spring and his father has become a miner.
We also have a HW Wilkinson on the boat from the UK to Cape Town of the correct age listed as a miner. All makes sense to me but again as I said the dna put the brakes on us hence the search for a matching signature
Cheers
Ken
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There is an attestation record for Herbert Wilkinson, with his signature on it...
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I would add - it is not a naval record, there are a few other HW WIlkinsons - all Army as well though
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On the Red Cross POW site:
Start here
https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Search/#/3/2/224/0/British%20and%20Commonwealth/Military/wilkinson%20herbert%20william
Click in the middle of the record, that brings up a red banner for further info. Enter the PA numbers one at a time, these bring up three records from different stages of his time as a POW on which the SA references are to be found.
I think you've got him!
MaxD
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There is an attestation record for Herbert Wilkinson, with his signature on it...
[/quote
Thanks Bertie
Does this document have any other info about this HW Wilkinson?
Cheers Ken ]
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There is an attestation record for Herbert Wilkinson, with his signature on it...
Hi Bertie
I have just compared signatures and they don't look the same to my untrained eye so maybe dna is winning the day!
Thanks
Ken
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The signature posted earlier is that of an HWW of South Tottenham who served 1914 to 1918 and who went back to live in Eltham at war's end. There is another of a Clapham HWW who was 41 when he signed on in Nov 1915. Another of a Stroud Green man invalided out in 1917 married to Rosetta Augusta. As bertieburrell points out, there are a number of H Wilkinson's for whom no signed document survives, if your man is among them then he won't be found by looking for a signature, far more sensible to look at other clues - or is the Royal Marine your man - I am unsure?
MaxD
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Ken, This might be a bit simplistic, and it is difficult to speculate as you have not given the details.
If your paperwork is right (do you have original copies of documents?), and the DNA is obviously right, it could be that you are incorrectly dismissing the Essex Wilkinsons only because you can't find the right birth or baptism (he may have been registered with forenames the other way around for example, or born out of wedlock and registered with his mmn). It is possible that the Essex and Norfolk Wilkinsons are connected somewhere along the line given the locations.
If you are finding connections to other Wilkinsons who have taken DNA tests is it possible that their paperwork is incorrect?
Does Herbert William's SA marriage certificate give his father's name?
Lastly, I am not sure how you are approaching this search. What do you know to be fact? Are you certain that SA Herbert is YOUR Herbert?
(I originally thought you have original documents passed through the family but on further reading I am not sure).
Apologies in advance if I have misunderstood any of this and am giving dodgy advice. ;)
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I was about to post something similar to Ruskie hence my mention of other clues. We are I think both suggesting that you should start from what you know to be fact and then look at facts for your likely candidates and see how they fit. How many English Herbert William Wilkinsons could there be who served in the British forces and who had a close connection to specific places in South Africa?
MaxD