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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Saturday 29 December 18 13:50 GMT (UK)

Title: Death registration help
Post by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Saturday 29 December 18 13:50 GMT (UK)
Hi. This is my first post and I'm looking for help and suggestions please. My 3xgreat grandmother was Sarah Susannah Louthin, born in Marylebone in 1824. She and her husband Thomas had six children, three of whom died in infancy. I received the death certificates for Christmas but I now need to know when and of what she died. I can't find her death registration. The name Louthin is uncommon and easily misread and mistranscribed. (I've seen it most often as Southin). Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to go about finding her death registration since it's not under Louthin or Southin on either Ancestry or Find my Past. She was alive in 1857. TIA.
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 29 December 18 14:10 GMT (UK)
Welcome to rootschat. 

In 1851 the family are in Chelsea.  In 1871 Thomas is in Leyburn, Yorkshire - census states he is married RG10/4869 f68 p12
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Ayashi on Saturday 29 December 18 14:11 GMT (UK)
So to clarify, she was born 1824 not 1924?

Do you have the death certificate of husband Thomas?
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: andrewalston on Saturday 29 December 18 14:12 GMT (UK)
Welcome to RootsChat!

To avoid duplication, here are the family in 1851, at First St, Chelsea, HO107/1474 folio 172 pg 5:
Thos Louthin, Head, Mar, 34, Tailor, London
Sarah S do, Wife, Mar, 27, , Marylebone
Henry T do, Son, , 2, , Chelsea
Eleanor do, Daur, , 1, , Chelsea
Augusta Kirk, Niece, , 3, Tailor's daughter, Marylebone
Sarah S Scott, Aunt, U, 82, Annuitant, London
Sophia Dale, Visitor, U, 20, Dressmaker, Suffolk

Yes, I would have transcribed it as Southin too!
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Saturday 29 December 18 14:21 GMT (UK)
Thanks guys. Yes, sorry, she was born in 1824 not 1924. Yes I do have Thomas's death certificate. I also have their marriage certificate and a copy of the 1851 census. Can't find her on 1841 or any of them 1861. Thomas is on the 1871 living with his cousin in Yorkshire, where he died. Sarah was admitted to the workhouse in 1864 with her three daughters so I know she died after 1864.
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 29 December 18 14:22 GMT (UK)
Sarah was admitted to the workhouse in 1864 with her three daughters so I know she died after 1864.

Which workhouse
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Ayashi on Saturday 29 December 18 14:23 GMT (UK)
I just found all of the workhouse records, you beat me to it. Poor woman was in and out a few times, so obviously a rough year.

I'm assuming she wasn't the informant on Thomas's death certificate in that case (it was worth asking about it).

It was St Marylebone, Rosie :)

-Edit- the last admission has her firstly discharged "cured" and then another admission on the same page discharged "to Chelsea". The children left separately to her to Southall. They are said to have been of "no res" upon arrival but "where settled" St Luke, Chelsea.
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: suzard on Saturday 29 December 18 14:31 GMT (UK)
On the Westminster St Marylebone London Workhouse records there is this
admitted 10 July 1862
Sarah Southin 375 destitute deserted by husband she had ulcer of legs -reads as if she had them when discharged and she was unable to attend discharge
eleanor 12 and a half
Augusta 7
Letitia 5


Suz
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Saturday 29 December 18 14:35 GMT (UK)
Ayashi, I assume she was in the workhouse infirmary rather than just the workhouse. Rosie, even though Thomas is described as married on the 1871 censu, I think he may have been widowed by then. I know one shouldn't assume things, but I think she may have died between 1864 and 1871, which narrows it down, but I still can't find her anywhere.
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Ayashi on Saturday 29 December 18 14:39 GMT (UK)
Deserted... poor woman.

She was in 10th July and out 24th July, back in 28th July and out 13th Oct that year. She also stayed overnight with the children on the 25th July and 26th July (edit- looks to have been Britten St Workhouse for the overnight stays?).
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Saturday 29 December 18 14:47 GMT (UK)
Oooh thanks Suz, I hadn't seen that one. I have been wondering if she actually had syphillis. I saw a "Who do you think you are" several years ago, can't remember who it was but there were a lot of children and three or four of them died in a short space of time. They were in the middle of the family. There was an expert on who explained about syphillis and said that if you find a situation like this, suspect it. So three of Sarah's six children died within 5 years. Eleanor was the second and it was the 1st, 3rd and 4th who died so maybe that precludes it, but ulcerated legs can also be a sign of syphillis,
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Saturday 29 December 18 15:00 GMT (UK)
Ayashi, you are certainly right about her being a poor woman. She married in 1847 then her three little boys died aged 4, 1 and 3 respectively, in December 1852, January 1853 and January 1857. In 1870 her 14 year old daughter Augusta caught her foot in the cable of an inclined plane in Sunniside, Yorkshire and was dragged, receiving a compound fracture of the leg. She lived 11 days. On top of that we now see that she was deserted by her husband and left destitute and ill. I rather hope she WAS dead before Augusta was killed.
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Ayashi on Saturday 29 December 18 15:06 GMT (UK)
Oh goodness :(

It annoys me a bit that I can't find them on the 1861 census. I do vaguely wonder if she remarried, despite Thomas being alive. I'm not 100% on the law but I think if seven years passed without any knowledge of a husband being alive then it could be possible, especially if she was destitute with young children. Even without the law, with no husband around she could have passed herself off as a widow.

On a worse note, if the children were separated from her, her identity might have been lost. If she was outside of the workhouse one night and something happened to her, she might not have a death certificate under her own name if nobody knew who she was :/
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: jonw65 on Saturday 29 December 18 15:31 GMT (UK)
Deserted... poor woman.

Thomas is in umpteen editions of the Poor Law Unions' Gazette, 1862-64
8 November 1862
THOMAS LOUTHIN, aged 46, by trade a tailor, height 5 feet 5 inches, sandy hair, bald head, very slight figure, pale countenance, weak eyes, and slightly pitted with small-pox. Worked for D. Nicholl and Co. Tailors, Regent Street, three years. The said Thomas Louthin absconded in June last; his wife and three children are now chargeable to the Parish of St Luke Chelsea

One pound reward, info to Mr. Tubbs, Relieving Officer!
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Saturday 29 December 18 15:54 GMT (UK)
Jon that's absolutely brilliant! An actual description of him! He sounds like a right b*****d. Did you say he appears in other editions? Where do you find these?
Ayashi, it's annoying to me too, that I can't find them on the 1861 census. It sounds from the piece Jon shared, as though he took off in June 1862, so they should presumably still be on the 1861 census as a family. Even searchin for Eleanor or Letitia doesn't bring up any results. It's a horrible thought that she may not have a death certificate but you could be right. She may have chucked herself off a bridge or something.

Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Saturday 29 December 18 16:04 GMT (UK)
I must say, this is all absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much guys! In an afternoon I've filled in more information about this family than I could even have hoped. I think I shall have to do a post about my perpetual knotty problem and see what people can come up with! Thanks again for your help.
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: jonw65 on Saturday 29 December 18 16:05 GMT (UK)
Hi
I got it from the British Newspaper Archive (will also be on findmypast)
You can get three free page views on BNA if you register.

It's the same piece on Thomas for all that time, he is still 46 in 1864!
Also on there, report of the inquest on poor Augusta (various newspapers, much the same story) in February 1870.
John

Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Saturday 29 December 18 16:15 GMT (UK)
Thank you Jon.
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: despair on Saturday 29 December 18 17:29 GMT (UK)
Interestingly,there is a record of the birth of a Sarah Jane Louthin mmn Holland in Wolverhampton in Sept quarter 1865.This child dies in infancy West Bromwich June quarter 1866.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: despair on Saturday 29 December 18 17:44 GMT (UK)
The baptism record gives Sarah Jane as the child of Thomas (shoemaker) and Sarah,abode Union Workhouse.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: dawnsh on Saturday 29 December 18 19:36 GMT (UK)
what part of the country did the surviving children move to?
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: despair on Saturday 29 December 18 19:50 GMT (UK)
Letitia Emily Louthin married in Birmingham in 1884.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: dawnsh on Saturday 29 December 18 20:00 GMT (UK)
Eleanor Harriet married in Marylebone in 1871
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: despair on Saturday 29 December 18 20:12 GMT (UK)
Eleanor is at 7 South Street,Marylebone in the 1871 census,given as 18 y.o.mis-transcribed as Louthm on FindMyPast.
She is not with other family members.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Jomot on Sunday 30 December 18 00:49 GMT (UK)
Sorry, I haven't found her death, but there is a document in the settlement papers for Chelsea that gives a little more information about Thomas's desertion of Sarah & the children ('to look for work') & their subsequent removal to Chelsea workhouse.  The document is dated 30 Oct 1862.

If you have Anc* you should be able to view it here: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01n7b/

If for any reason the link doesn't work, let me know & I'll post the long way to it.

ADDED: The document says that they were left at 37 Union Street, St Marylebone in June 1861, but I cant see them there in the 1861 census - the address had several families listed.
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Sunday 30 December 18 08:54 GMT (UK)
Thank you very much for all this help, it's wonderful. I wonder why Thomas left the job he'd been working at for three years. Jomot, I can't view the link as I don't have Ancestry. I wonder if it's somewhere on Find my Past. Or I may have to have a month's Ancestry when my FindMyPast runs out in February. I found the coroner's report on Augusta, thanks to JonW65. It appears that her y0unger sister was with her when she had her accident. That would be Letitia. I wonder why they were in Durham...it's an awfully long way from London. Then it seems that Letitia ended up in Birmingham. Eleanor stayed in London and eventually became my gt gt grandmother.
So there's no sign of the family on the 1861 census, and still no sign of Sarah's death certificate. It is beginning to look as though there isn't one. Thanks again everyone. I wish I'd found this forum before!
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: despair on Sunday 30 December 18 09:07 GMT (UK)
To fill in,Letitia is listed as Emily Southin in Birmingham in the 1881 census.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: despair on Sunday 30 December 18 11:33 GMT (UK)
Unlikely,I know,but there is a marriage record for Sarah Susannah Louthing in Windsor,Berkshire in 1880.I can’t find this person in any previous census.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: despair on Sunday 30 December 18 11:43 GMT (UK)
I’ve now found that Sarah in 1881 as Sarah Ann,born 1856,with husband William Crane.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Jomot on Sunday 30 December 18 12:04 GMT (UK)
To fill in,Letitia is listed as Emily Southin in Birmingham in the 1881 census.

She is also in Birmingham in 1871 at Gem Street Industrial School, transcribed as Letitia Lawthing or Lowthing, depending which site you use.  FindMyPast has wrongly transcribed her PoB as Leicestershire.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5BZ-6VZ
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Jomot on Sunday 30 December 18 12:25 GMT (UK)
I wonder if the records for Gem Street Industrial School will hold some further information?

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01n7c/
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: despair on Sunday 30 December 18 13:07 GMT (UK)
So we have Sarah in Wolverhampton in 1865(?) and Letitia in Birmingham in 1871.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Sunday 30 December 18 13:17 GMT (UK)
Roger, this Wolverhampton connection makes things even more mysterious. Given the uncommoness of the name Louthin, I can't imagine it can be anyone else, but you know what these things are like.What on earth were they doing there I wonder? Where were the girls? Augusta and Letitia were both in Durham in 1870 and Letitia was in Birmingham in 1871 after the death of her sister. Still more questions! Thanks for your input.
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: despair on Sunday 30 December 18 14:08 GMT (UK)
Just a little more fill in,as you said you didn’t have Sarah in 1841.It looks to me that she was the daughter of Henry Alexander and Charlotte Holland.They die in 1839 and 1836 respectively in High St.,Marylebone.There is a Sarah Holland of the correct age(given rounding in the 1841 census),in High St. Marylebone in 1841.

Regard
Roger
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Sunday 30 December 18 15:26 GMT (UK)
Thanks Roger, yes, those are her parents. I will look again at the 1841 census for Sarah.
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Jomot on Sunday 30 December 18 15:27 GMT (UK)
Unlikely,I know,but there is a marriage record for Sarah Susannah Louthing in Windsor,Berkshire in 1880.I can’t find this person in any previous census.

I’ve now found that Sarah in 1881 as Sarah Ann,born 1856,with husband William Crane.

I don't think the couple you found in 1881 is the right one, but you could be on to something here.

The marriage ref is Jan-Mar 1880 Windsor 2c/663, and the four names on the page are as follows:
William Crane
John Lamsdon
Sarah Susannah Louthing/Lonthing
Sarah Ann White

The couple you found in Windsor with the wife as Sarah Ann have children with the mmn White (Ethel Annie Crane 1880 & William Joseph Crane 1882), so Sarah Susannah must have married John Lamsdon.

I haven't spotted them in 1881 yet, but this could be them in 1891:
11 Garden Court, Clewer, New Windsor - RG12/1012/23/19
John Lamsdon 84 Hawker Dealer Pedlar b Abingdon, Berkshire
Sarah Lamsdon wife 67 born London

Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: despair on Sunday 30 December 18 15:40 GMT (UK)
Well spotted.I forgot to do the alternative check.

Regards
Roge
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: jonw65 on Sunday 30 December 18 15:45 GMT (UK)
Could she be Mary in 1881?
In Clewer, age 57, born Marylebone
Husband John a pedlar from Abingdon
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27Z-35VD
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Jomot on Sunday 30 December 18 15:46 GMT (UK)
Could she be Mary in 1881?
In Clewer, age 57, born Marylebone
Husband John a pedlar from Abingdon
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27Z-35VD

You just beat me to it!
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: jonw65 on Sunday 30 December 18 15:57 GMT (UK)
Well done to both of you for finding her, amazing work.
John
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Sunday 30 December 18 16:17 GMT (UK)
Interesting. Sarah Susannah Louthing is so very close and Thomas was dead by 1880 so she could have remarried. I'd better see if I can get the marriage certificate.
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Jomot on Sunday 30 December 18 19:19 GMT (UK)
Just going back to Gem Street Industrial School, it looks like there might well be some useful information:

Ref: MS 994/5/1/1   Register of inmates April 1868 - January 1891
Not indexed. Columns are: no. on register; name; age; where, when, and by whom ordered to be detained; with what charged; term of detention; when admitted; previous character as far as known [e.g. good, bad, vagrant, indifferent]; name, address, occupation, and such other particulars as can be given respecting the parents or step parents; parish to which chargeable (if any).

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01n7e/

Letitia should have been admitted some time between her sister’s death in Feb 1870 and the census on 2 April 1871, so her records should be there.

If Sarah was using a different surname after leaving Chelsea this might be recorded, along with her whereabouts.

It may be worth posting on the relevant board to see if anyone can do a look-up for you at Birmingham Archives/Library of Birmingham.
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Jomot on Sunday 30 December 18 20:00 GMT (UK)
Although another possibility to throw into the mix is a workhouse admission in Macclesfield, Cheshire on 31 Dec 1872 of a Sarah Lowthing born 1824, observation: 'sick'.  Also a discharge in 1874.
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Sunday 30 December 18 21:37 GMT (UK)
Thank you again. My husband does family research in Birmingham and we aren't that far away so I think we will be making a trip there very soon! Can't wait. The Cheshire one is interesting. What would she have been doing there I wonder?
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Jomot on Monday 31 December 18 02:22 GMT (UK)
This one has me hooked, so I had another look for Sarah's death and I'm pretty sure I've found it in the newspaper, but I simply can't find a matching death registration  :-\

The article is in on page 6 of the Windsor and Eton Express dated 14 Apr 1894 headed  ‘Inquest at the Infirmary’.
In summary, an inquest was held at the Windsor Infirmary on Sarah Lamsden, who died there on 6th April.  Her husband was named as John Lamsden 'an aged and infirm man, and very deaf' who was a hawker and lived at 11 Garden Court, River Street (the same address as the 1891 census per my earlier post). 

Sarah 'a very tottery woman' aged 'about 70' had fallen down on 22 March and hurt her leg but wasn't taken to the infirmary until 26th March, where it was found she had a fractured thigh bone.  She was put in splints and was generally doing well but then began to get congestion of the lungs and subsequently died. Verdict of accidental death given.

As we know exactly where & when she died and there was an inquest I'd expect to find the death registration easily enough, but I can't. 
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: despair on Monday 31 December 18 07:21 GMT (UK)
Fantastic find,great sleuthing.I had looked at newspapers but found nothing.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Monday 31 December 18 08:07 GMT (UK)
Thanks Jomot. I guess my next step, along with a visit to Birmingham, is to get the marriage certificate to confirm whether it's her or not. I'll keep you posted.
There really should be a death certificate shouldn't there, if she died in the infirmary? I'll keep searching

Love Lynne
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: dawnsh on Monday 31 December 18 09:57 GMT (UK)
try asing Windsor Council about a burial based on the information in the newspaper. You can also phone them, a number is given once you start the online process.

https://www3.rbwm.gov.uk/info/200554/cemeteries_and_crematoria/91/grave_search
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Jomot on Monday 31 December 18 11:07 GMT (UK)
Yes, fingers crossed the marriage certificate confirms that it's her & that the records in Birmingham also reveal something.

As well as the burial search suggested by dawnsh, it might be worth contacting Windsor Registrars to see if they hold a record of her death but it somehow didn't make it to the GRO:

https://www3.rbwm.gov.uk/info/200558/copy_certificates/1297/copy_of_a_death_certificate
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Monday 31 December 18 11:13 GMT (UK)
Yes, I'll try that once I've received the marriage certificate.
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: JenB on Monday 31 December 18 11:19 GMT (UK)
Following this this thread with interest. Great sleuthing!
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Monday 31 December 18 11:23 GMT (UK)
Yes it really is isn't it? I thought I was quite good at this, given how long I've been doing it, but there is so much knowledge and expertise on here I feel like a real amateur.
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: AntonyMMM on Monday 31 December 18 11:26 GMT (UK)
As well as the burial search suggested by dawnsh, it might be worth contacting Windsor Registrars to see if they hold a record of her death but it somehow didn't make it to the GRO:

Another possibility is that the coroner didn't register the death after the inquest - I've seen quite a few examples where that seems to be the case.
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: despair on Monday 31 December 18 12:25 GMT (UK)
I wonder if the lack of record has anything to do with the fact that Clewer civil parish was abolished in 1894?
https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/windsor.html
Perhaps it fell into an administrative “black hole”
Then again,I can’t say I can find an obvious death registration for her husband either.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Monday 31 December 18 13:16 GMT (UK)
Roger, you said her parents died in 1839 and 1836. I have her Father's death but haven't found her Mother's. Where did you find it?

Love Lynne
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: despair on Monday 31 December 18 13:28 GMT (UK)
It is on Ancestry,Charlotte Holland(1794-1836),High St.,Marylebone.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Monday 31 December 18 13:45 GMT (UK)
Thank you.
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Monday 31 December 18 16:30 GMT (UK)
So for anyone still interested in Sarah Susannah Louthin (nee Holland), her life was dreadful. Here is the summary. When she was 9 her baby sister aged 2 died. At 12 her mother died and 3 years later her father. By the time she was 17 her younger sister was in Marylebone Charity School and her little brother at Hackney infant orphan asylum. She married when she was 22 and at 23 had her first baby. She had the 2nd and 3rd at 25 and 27, then when she was 28 and 2 months pregnant the 1st baby died, followed a month later by the 3rd baby. She gave birth to the 4th baby and had a fifth when she was 30. At 32 the 6th baby was born and the 4th died, both in the same month. When she was 38 her husband abandoned her, leaving her destitute and in the workhouse with the remaining three children. When she was 46 her 5th child was killed in a horrific accident. What an incredibly tragic life!
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Ayashi on Monday 31 December 18 17:02 GMT (UK)
I think there's someone on RC whose ancestor, or someone they were researching, had something like 22 children, 4 surviving. Makes you wonder how the heck they kept going.
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: despair on Monday 31 December 18 17:09 GMT (UK)
I see that Eleanor Louthin who died in service(I think) in Leyburn in 1882 had a personal estate valued at approx £91.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Monday 31 December 18 17:20 GMT (UK)
Eleanor Louthin from Leyburn is almost certainly related to Thomas but I can't find the connection.
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: despair on Monday 31 December 18 21:50 GMT (UK)
I thought at one point Eleanor and Thomas could be twins.
There is a baptism record for Ellen Louthin,1817,St. James Westminster,parents John(tailor) and Sarah
In the 1847 marriage certificate,Thomas(born1817 in census info) gives his father as John(tailor,deceased)
Thomas in the 1871 census has a birthplace St James Westminster
One,major caveat is that Eleanor in the 1871 census is given as born 1828 and the GRO death record would give 1827.
Frustratingly I'm sure I've seen a document that refers to "twin" but I can't find it again.

I'll look again tomorrow.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: despair on Monday 31 December 18 22:28 GMT (UK)
I"ve found the "twin" reference.It was from a Thomas Lowthian,born 1788 in Cumberland!Back to the drawing board.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: rosie99 on Tuesday 01 January 19 12:06 GMT (UK)
I see that Eleanor Louthin who died in service(I think) in Leyburn in 1882 had a personal estate valued at approx £91.

Regards
Roger

Obit  York Herald 17 January 1882
On the 13th inst. at Spennithorne Hall, in this County, age 55, Eleanor Louthin.

She is buried at Spennithorne -   St Michael & All Angels
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: rosie99 on Tuesday 01 January 19 12:32 GMT (UK)
I know you have this baptism but just posting details

St James, Westminster
Born 11 Aug 1817 - bapt 2 Sept 1817
Ellen Louthin- parents John & Sarah -fathers occ Tailor - abode Dufonts Place
...........................................................
also St James...../

Eleanor Lothen born 12 May 1819 -parents John & Sarah - fathers occ Tailor -abode Vine Street

Born 10 March 1821 -bapt 6 April 1821
Isabella Louthin - parents John & Sarah -fathers occ Taylor -abode 3 Vine Street
Buried 1824 age 3 abode New Bond Street
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: despair on Tuesday 01 January 19 15:27 GMT (UK)
Excellent spot of Eleanor Lothen,there are so many spelling variants to deal with.

John Louthin,tailor,appears to be a partner in Weld and Louthin of (New) Bond Street
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01n7h/
He is given as John Lothin(1782-1825) in Westminster Burialsst
He is given as John Lowthin in Westminster Rate books,entries finishing appropriately in 1825.
I suspect his wife Sarah is the one given as Lothian in Westminster burials(1792-1835)

So is Ellin Louthin whose baptism record is given as 1817 the same as Eleanor Lothen 1819?
I think yes,because after the entry in 1819 it appears to say "two churchings".

But where is Thomas' equivalent baptism?
Are they brother and sister?
I think "yes" despite the caveat re census age for Eleanor.She was in service for the only confirmed entries,so perhaps her employer,as head of household and provider of information was generous to
her!

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: rosie99 on Tuesday 01 January 19 15:41 GMT (UK)

So is Ellin Louthin whose baptism record is given as 1817 the same as Eleanor Lothen 1819?
I think yes,because after the entry in 1819 it apps"ears to say "two churchings".


They give different dates of birth.  You can obviously see a document that I can't as I see no mention of two churchings on those I can.
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Tuesday 01 January 19 15:47 GMT (UK)
Thanks Roger and Rosie. It looks, from what you've posted, as though Ellen Louthin may have died and Eleanor is another child. I think it's most likely that John and Sarah are the same John and Sarah in all entries, despite the different spellings of the surname. They are close enough to the origianl and the name is so uncommon I can't see there being two John And Sarah's. This is also almost certainly Thomas's parents too. Interesting there being a business "Weld And Louthin". It looks as though the family fortunes went downhill. It would be useful to find a baptism and /marriage for John. I wonder if he was born in Leyburn?
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: jonw65 on Tuesday 01 January 19 15:52 GMT (UK)
PCC will of John Louthin of Bond Street, Middlesex, 1825
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D196527

also Sarah Taylor otherwise Lowthin, Spinster of Saint James Westminster, 1835
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D297782

will be on ancestry.
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: despair on Tuesday 01 January 19 15:59 GMT (UK)
You're right Rosie,different dates.Plus,the 1819 record gives Vine St as an address.Bit of a tangle!

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: despair on Tuesday 01 January 19 16:07 GMT (UK)
In the preamble to the will of 1835 Sarah refers to"her children Thomas and Elin"

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: despair on Tuesday 01 January 19 16:15 GMT (UK)
There is some interesting language in the preamble to John Louthin's will of 1825,where he refers to "my beloved friend Sarah Taylor and the family we have had.."  "...Thomas,Eleanor and Isabella..."
(fits with description "spinster"?)
Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: jonw65 on Tuesday 01 January 19 16:28 GMT (UK)
Looks like they didn't marry.
Could Thomas perhaps have been baptized as an illegitimate Taylor? Though I haven't found one yet.
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: jonw65 on Tuesday 01 January 19 17:12 GMT (UK)
London Gazette, 13 November 1821
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/17764/page/2239

No. 5, New Bond-Street, November 10, 1821
Notice is hereby given, that William Weld and John Louthin, of New Bond-Street, in the County of Middlesex, Tailors and Copartners, have this day dissolved Partnersnip by mutual consent; such dissolution to commence from the 29th day of September last. — The business will in future be carried on in Bond-Street, by John Louthin alone.
Wm. Weld.
J. Louthin.

My husband does family research in Birmingham and we aren't that far away so I think we will be making a trip there very soon!

Held at Birmingham Archives
Louthin, J. Tailors and breeches maker; 5 New Bond Street, London
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/36b6106c-7c2c-464e-81e8-63d42c7ab634

See also Louthin and Oven
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/ef8dba4d-8d50-4ba1-9752-676cc629d09a
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: despair on Tuesday 01 January 19 17:36 GMT (UK)
This looks a reasonable candidate:-

John Louthian,christened Jan 1784,parents John and Mary,Union Court,Holborn.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Jomot on Tuesday 01 January 19 18:24 GMT (UK)
Thomas married Sarah Susannah as Thomas Paterson Coburg Louthin & was named as Thomas Cockburn Louthin on Eleanor Harriet’s marriage, so this looks like his baptism at St James, Piccadilly:

1 Jul 1816 Thomas Patterson Coburg Louding (transcribed as Londing)

All other details are blank - or so faint as to be unreadable - other than the name of the minister.
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: despair on Tuesday 01 January 19 18:49 GMT (UK)
I can't quite make it out fully,but Patterson appears to be the name of the executor of John Louthin's will.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Jomot on Tuesday 01 January 19 19:49 GMT (UK)
There is an interesting will on Ancestry for a Thomas Louthin of Gill House, Arkengarthdale, probated 1839, naming the following:

Edward, Thomas & Jane Louthin of Newcastle (Nephews & Niece). Mother named as Jane.
Mary Rowntree of Leyburn (Niece)
Ellen Robson (Niece)
Ellen Louthin (Niece)
Ellen & Hannah Rowntree (Nieces)
Ann Storey (Niece)
Richard Rowntree (Nephew)
Thomas Louthin of Leyburn (Nephew)
Rodger & William Price (Nephews)

As well as individual legacies, the Nephews & Nieces from Ellen Robson down received an equal share of his goods, chattels & house in Arkengarthdale.  Any remaining furniture to be shared between Richard Rowntree, Thomas Louthin of Leyburn, Ellen & Hannah Rowntree, Ann Storey & Ellen Louthin.

Executors were Richard Rowntree & Thomas Louthin of Leyburn.

The 1825 will of John Louthin includes 'Appeared Personally John Owen(?) of No. 5 New Bond Street, Middlesex, Tailor, and Richard Rowntree of the same place, Tailor', who swore under oath that the handwriting and signature on the will belonged to John Louthin.

ADDED: William Patterson was the executor.
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: despair on Tuesday 01 January 19 20:30 GMT (UK)
Thomas Louthin is described as cousin to Richard Rowntree in the 1871 census.Likely connection via marriage of 1801 in Wensley,Leyburn between Hannah Lowthian and William Rowntree?

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: despair on Wednesday 02 January 19 08:49 GMT (UK)
Richard Rowntree is William's son,so for Thomas Louthin to be cousin,his father John(born circa 1782) would have to be brother to Hannah(born circa 1772).The latter estimate comes from the burial record of Hannah Rowntree in Wensley,Leyburn.

Regards
Roger

Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Wednesday 02 January 19 16:51 GMT (UK)
Thanks once again. Very interesting stuff about John Louthin having a business in New Bond Street. It seems that Beau Brummel, the arbiter of well-made, perfectly tailored clothes, used several tailors, some of them on Bond Street, so it's entirely possible that John made clothes for him! It seems very sad that Thomas and his family were brought so low, expecially when Thomas had been working for a tailor on Regent Street. I wonder if he was a drinker? I also found a marriage of a John Lowthian in Westminster in 1805, to Harriet Holloway. I wonder if John and Sarah did not marry because John was already married?
That baptism is definitely his. Brilliant!

Love Lynne
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Wednesday 02 January 19 16:54 GMT (UK)
I've now taken out a month's subscription to Ancestry, so should be able to find a lot of those documents.
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: despair on Wednesday 02 January 19 17:39 GMT (UK)
The main difficulty with Ancestry is that it doesn't like multiple wild cards in searches,which is desireable with so many possible variants.
I am checking out one instance of a John and Hannah with common parents,but,frankly,it may just be a coincidence with no connection able to be proved.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Thursday 03 January 19 17:22 GMT (UK)
Interesting.....the marriage certificate for Letitia (pretty sure it's the right Letitia) has no father's name. I wonder if that was a purposeful disowning on her part?
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: despair on Thursday 03 January 19 17:36 GMT (UK)
Do you mean Letitia Emily Louthin 1884?
I didn't think that marriage certificate was available online.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Thursday 03 January 19 18:03 GMT (UK)
Yes. It turned up on my Ancestry hints. It's a parish marriage certificate not civil registration of course. It's down as Lenna Emily Lonthin, but if you look at it, it quite clearly says Letitia Emily Louthin.
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Thursday 03 January 19 19:08 GMT (UK)
Whew! What a family! I've now discovered that Letitia's son had syphillis when he was in the army in 1916!
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: despair on Thursday 03 January 19 19:47 GMT (UK)
Was he diagnosed on VD Day?(Sorry,couldn't resist).

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Thursday 03 January 19 19:50 GMT (UK)
Hahaha!
Title: Re: Death registration help
Post by: Lynne Tann-Watson on Wednesday 09 January 19 10:53 GMT (UK)
I just received the marriage certificate for Sarah Louthin in Windsor. It's definitely her, so I now know that she was still alive in 1880 and that the coroner's report was also her. Thanks so much everyone for all the help; I would never have got this far without you.