RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Galway => Topic started by: alpinecottage on Tuesday 01 January 19 15:34 GMT (UK)
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I'm helping my brother apply for an Irish passport on the grounds we have an Irish-born grandfather.
My grandfather was born on 9 April 1882, according to the 1939 register. His age at marriage and death accord with this. His father was James too, and family lore records he came from Galway (county, not town) and he was Catholic. Unfortunately, his birth doesn't appear on the irishgenealogy.ie records.
My questions are
1. Are Irish birth records held like the English ones; registered at the local Registry Office, then forwarded to the central Register Office?
2. If so, are the irishgenealogy records those held at the central Registry and can one approach the local register office to ask for their records to be checked?
3. If his birth wasn't registered (and some of his siblings' don't seem to have been), will the Dept of Foreign Affairs and Trade authorities accept a baptismal record to issue a foreign-born birth certificate?
4. The parish records that are freely available for Boyounagh (the parish in question) go up to 1881, but I understand later records are available on the pay-to-view site Rootsireland.ie. Does anyone know if these are images of parish records or just transcriptions?
Thanks in advance :)
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What was James' last name?!
Also did he marry in a catholic church? if yes, they may have a record of his baptism as it would have been required to ensure he was free to marry
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Surname was Comer.
Yes, he married in Manchester in St Wilfrid's RC church. The church is closed now, I think.
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RootsIreland is only transcripts, but if you have the parish name they could supply you with a certified copy (ie with parish stamp) of his baptism.
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Have you kept in mind that his birth could have been registered late so his parents may have fibbed about the date he was born to avoid the fine.
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Sinann, thank you.
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if his birth was registered late - most of his siblings were baptised before they were born!! ie they were baptised then when someone got round to going to the register office, the birth date was "moved" to avoid the fine. But James doesn't seem to be there at all. (He is not the James Comer of Moyglass born about a year later, as that one died in Moyglass after my grandfather died in Manchester).
The question of whether the Dept of Foreign Affairs would accept a baptismal record remains - not much point getting official copies if we can't proceed to the passport stage.
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possible baptism on Apr 21 1882 in Glenamaddy (Boynnagh)
census 1911 LINK (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Galway/Raheen/Lisheennaheltia/458988/)
with widowed mother and two siblings
Most of my relatives in that area were baptised before they were born also!
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Brilliant, myluck!, thank you.
Can anyone else comment on my first three more general questions, though I realise I could shoot off some emails when the offices reopen.
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Birth registration followed the English system. Local offices sent copies up to the Central Office in Dublin. Today the service is now run from Roscommon. Not sure if the local office still has copies but why not ring and enquire?
You can order a certified copy (such as is needed for a passport application) of a civil certificate from GRO Roscommon.
https://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Apply-for-Certificates.aspx
Regarding the civil birth certificate, have you searched with the forename blank? In the earlier days of birth registration in Ireland many births were registered without a forename. Just the parents names and other details. Always worth searching using that criterion.
Regarding whether a baptism certificate will suffice instead of a birth certificate I’d suggest you contact the Irish Embassy or passport office for a definitive answer.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html
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Elwyn, thank you for your comments. Grandfather's cert doesn't appear to be there as all his siblings were named on their birth registrations and also there are no certs for the surname with the correct parents in the correct time frame.
Yes, I was hoping to avoid emailing/contacting the various offices, because Rootschatters often know the answer. Looks like I, or my brother, will have to bite the bullet and make some enquiries when the offices are open again.
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With 98,544 passport applications from Britain and 84,855 from Northern Ireland in 2018 alone I'm sure they will have the answers on the tip of their tongue by now.
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I guess that suggests some people want to remain in the EU, Sinann. ::) ::) ;D ;D
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Sinann, thank you.
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if his birth was registered late - most of his siblings were baptised before they were born!! ie they were baptised then when someone got round to going to the register office, the birth date was "moved" to avoid the fine. But James doesn't seem to be there at all. (He is not the James Comer of Moyglass born about a year later, as that one died in Moyglass after my grandfather died in Manchester).
The question of whether the Dept of Foreign Affairs would accept a baptismal record remains - not much point getting official copies if we can't proceed to the passport stage.
What was his father’s occupation on James marriage certificate?
When you mention his siblings, do you have their names and residence?
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Numbers go up each year since the vote. Of course a lot of Irish people live in the UK so some of that number will be Irish people renewing theirs.
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I guess that suggests some people want to remain in the EU, Sinann. ::) ::) ;D ;D
Maybe not remain but easier for travel within the EU.
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possible baptism on Apr 21 1882 in Glenamaddy (Boynnagh)
census 1911 LINK (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Galway/Raheen/Lisheennaheltia/458988/)
with widowed mother and two siblings
Most of my relatives in that area were baptised before they were born also!
This looks like that family in 1901 with a different son - Thomas but no daughter Bridget and no James.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Galway/Rohun/Lishunaheltia/1380835/
Is this your James’ family?
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Thirty years ago a certificate of baptism in absence of a birth certificate (either pre-registration or non-registration) was acceptable proof of Irish birth but the rules could have changed (especially in the last few years).
https://www.dfa.ie/passports-citizenship/citizenship/born-abroad/born-abroad-citizenship-by-descent-faqs/
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I looked up the Irish Government site for obtaining an Irish Passport.
Rule #1 in their own words
You must be an Irish citizen to be eligible for an Irish passport.
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barryd, yes, that's right. All these certificates are needed to register you as an Irish citizen (Registration of Birth Abroad). Once you get that piece of paper you can go on to apply for a passport, which is then just a formality.
I did all this about three years ago. I was able to get my grandfather's birth certificate though - I don't know if they still accept a baptism certificate as they used to do.
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Heywood; yes, you have the family in 1901.
The father was a farmer in Lisheenaheltia and the siblings were;
Patrick b 1866 Died young presumably
John b 1867 Came to England
Mary b 1868 Died young presumably
Patrick b 1869
Michael b 1871
Mary b 1872
James b 1874 Died young presumably
Catherine b 1876
Bridget b 1879
James b 1882 Came to England
Thomas 1885 Died in Turkey in WWI
Interesting to read you were successful with your application, nbrome.
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An update for anyone interested;
My grandfather's (James Comer) birth wasn't registered, or at least if it was, the registration never made it to the GRO from the local register office. We got a certified copy of his baptismal record, and the GRO issued a retrospective birth certificate..... only 136 years after the event!! My brother has applied for his foreign-born registration (so he can get an Irish passport) and is still waiting to hear about that.
In the meantime, we have both had DNA tests done and appear to have 4th cousins with Donlon/Donnellan/Donelly surnames in their trees in the correct area of Co Galway. My gt grandmother's maiden name was Donlon (and variants) from this area of Co Galway which matches with my paper trail, so I'm confident all the research is correct and I haven't been barking up the wrong tree. ;D ;D
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Thank you for the update
It's lovely to hear successful stories - best of everything
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Excellent, way to go GRO, imagine someone in the future wondering why his birth was registered 136 years late ;D
fingers still crossed for you brother.
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Thanks, myluck and Sinann.
"imagine someone in the future wondering why his birth was registered 136 years late "
Ha ha, I hadn't thought of that! ;D
By the way, our DNA tests have suggested we're 60% Irish or Scottish, which again fits in with the earlier ancestors on other branches. Seems to further justify the application for the Irish passport somehow! :D