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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: UnknownUser on Friday 04 January 19 21:13 GMT (UK)
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If anyone is going to the Wellington Archives could they please do me a favour?
I have a 100 year old family mystery where 2 brothers disappeared and were never seen or heard from again. Having just spoken to a lovely group of people, I have come across a document that could be him, and could actually solve this mystery. I would really like it if someone could go and photograph it for me please. I'm in England so cannot... although a holiday sounds good!
I would be ever so grateful!
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Hello,
Can you put the name(s) up for us? and we will see what we can do.......
Minniehaha. :)
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His name is Herbert Tristam Lawrence Alder and the file is number R25404312
He disappeared in 1912, and this file states it was written in 1917. I have also found a Herbert Alder who was a mental patient buried in an Auckland cemetery apparently from Avondale, so I am wondering if he was committed, and that's how the family lost track of him. I would so love to see that record to see if this gentleman was English etc
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Happy New Year.
Further to my PM. I now see the name you are interested in.
The Auckland archives file R25404312, I will put on my to do look ups. I have done previous ones re those records, so not expecting problems.
It will be February before I'm moblie again. recovering from elective hand surgery. When i have photos to send you I will advise as I will need an email address for service.
Regards,
Alan.
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Thank you! That sounds so painful! I hope you get well soon
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Greetings again.
Getting sloppy with old age as I transposed lines. The file posted above is in the Wellington Archive which I can not access. Our friendly Wellington SANTA may offer to help.
I now see the entry above on my Archives search listing, does not have ALDER as the surname, just Herbert Alder as christian names. I mistakenly thought it was going to be the Avondale hospital [Auckland] records file which I've accessed before.
Alan.
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This one is Alder?
Is there a way to search Avondales records?
Greetings again.
Getting sloppy with old age as I transposed lines. The file posted above is in the Wellington Archive which I can not access. Our friendly Wellington SANTA may offer to help.
I now see the entry above on the Archives listing, does not have ALDER as the surname, I mistakenly thought it was going to be the Avondale hospital [Auckland] records file which i've accessed before.
Alan.
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Hi again.
In simple terms, if records are held in an Archives branch, they should show in an ARCHWAY search. As long as there were no cataloging errors.
Then the question becomes are they historic records, old enough to be accessed by the public, or open court records.
Have you just done a simple search of ALDER on Archway to see if there are any other listings that may be associated with the family being researched. I've had a look and Alder is not that common a name to be flooding you with hits.
Alan.
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I will have another look :)
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Here is the direct link to the Archives file for the looker upperer.......
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=25404312
Minniehaha.
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Enquiries being made in 1927……
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZH19270108.2.7.8?query=herbert%20alder&phrase=2&snippet=true
Also provides an interesting history of the brothers' known travels.
Possibly his death:
1952/23845 Alder Herbert 79Y
Minniehaha.
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Cemetery record:
Burial record for Herbert Alder
Date of birth
Unknown
Occupation
Mental Patient
Date of death
23 September 1952
Age at death
79 years
Gender
Male
Region
West
Cemetery name
Waikumete Cemetery
Plot location
Waikumete Cemetery, Nonconformist Division C, Row 29, Plot 37
Remains type
Body
Date of burial
25 September 1952
Funeral director
Unknown
Minniehaha.
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Also enquiry being made from Adelaide, Australia in 1927……
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ODT19270317.2.2.7?query=randal%20alder&snippet=true
[Notice appeared in more than one newspaper in New Zealand.]
Minniehaha.
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Testator: Alder, Randal Rhys Lawrence | The National Archives
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C3538128
Enquiries being made in Canada......
The Gazette from Montreal, on December 9, 1926 • 7 - Newspapers.com
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/421264075/
(I.) Whether Herbert Tristram Lawrence Alder is liv - fnor or. dead, and. If dead, who are his' tonal personal representatives; (II. i W hether Randal Rhys Lawrence ...
Minniehaha.
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Maybe the arrival of Herbert in New Zealand.......
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6L59-8S4?i=36&cc=1609792
Minniehaha.
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Hi Christianajacobi,
Yes, I can get this file for you. The Reading Rooms at Archives NZ open on Monday so i should be able to visit this week.
Regards,
Spades
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U S Census 1910…….
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GRJ5-B8V?i=11&cc=1727033
United States Census, 1910
Name: Alder
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1910
Event Place: Stockton Ward 4, San Joaquin, California, United States
Gender: Male
Age: 34
Marital Status: Single
Race: White
Race: White
Birth Year (Estimated): 1876
Birthplace: England
Immigration Year: 1894
Father's Birthplace: England
Minniehaha.
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Hi again.
In simple terms, if records are held in an Archives branch, they should show in an ARCHWAY search. As long as there were no cataloging errors.
Alan.
Not necessarily Alan, as Auckland Archives hold a lot of admission books for the Avondale asylum and the individual entries are not indexed on Archway.these books are a great source of information.
Cheers Janette
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FindMyPast has a shipping entry that would fit with Minniehaha's #16 post above
Herbert T. Lawrence Alder aged 30y,birth year 1874,born England left Liverpool for New York 1904 aboard the Arabic.
Edited
Another entry has H T Alder born 1875 leaving Liverpool in 1894 for Ellis Island New York on board the Majestic (1890)
Cheers Janette
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There are entries here which may also show Randal arriving in the US. I have not yet signed up for free access but if you do, the ships' manifests can be viewed.........
Alder, Herbert T. Lawrence 1904 Liverpool Arabic
[Your post is noted Janette :) ]
https://www.libertyellisfoundation.org/passenger-result
Minniehaha.
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It's the Lunacy File at Wellington Archives that Christine needs - all the other info has been found and recorded.
Cheers to Spades for offering to have a look - we are all on tenterhooks waiting.....
DebNz :)
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Hi again.
In simple terms, if records are held in an Archives branch, they should show in an ARCHWAY search. As long as there were no cataloging errors.
Alan.
Not necessarily Alan, as Auckland Archives hold a lot of admission books for the Avondale asylum and the individual entries are not indexed on Archway.these books are a great source of information.
Cheers Janette
Thanks for that Janette. Any tips for how to approach the admission books for a look see? All I previously spotted was 1850's - 1880's and the restricted access, 1970's to 1990's. What do we search for ? [Auckland; Avondale; Carrington; Kingseat.] The only other public viewing book I can find is Auckland Hospital admissions 1917 -1918 R24556081 and I'm assuming the contents are catalogued.
Alan
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It's the Lunacy File at Wellington Archives that Christine needs - all the other info has been found and recorded.
DebNz :)
On another forum
Cheers Janette
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Thank you everyone, I feel quite nervous about what may be included
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It's the Lunacy File at Wellington Archives that Christine needs - all the other info has been found and recorded.
DebNz :)
On another forum
Cheers Janette
With respect Janette that does not answer my question for future reference re Auckland Archives held material.
I'm assuming any record book or file held, is catalogued, even if the individual contents therein is yet to be itemised. Otherwise how do you go about arranging a public viewing?
Alan.
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[
With respect Janette that does not answer my question for future reference re Auckland Archives held material.
I'm assuming any record book or file held, is catalogued, even if the individual contents therein is yet to be itemised. Otherwise how do you go about arranging a public viewing?
Alan.
Alan,
My comment was for everyone who has been helping Christine with her search.As your question is rather involved I chose not to answer here and hijack Christine's thread.
Janette
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Images sent.
Spades
p.s. We need to find him in a mental hospital Register. I assume they will be held at Archives NZ in Auckland.
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What is interesting about the 1917 file I've sent to Christiana is that while it is titled 'In the matter of the estate of...', the only death I can find on NZ BDM is the 1952 event noted above. So if the file only relates to his property, why, when he died 35 years later?
Reading the articles linked to above I noted that Herbert was also known as 'Jack' ALDER, and there is a 1951 death of a Jack Alder, although he's too young, at 43 years.
Spades
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Hi there,
With regard to Spades' comments above.......
When Herbert became a patient of an asylum, some Order would probably have been made concerning his estate at that point.
Everyone who has assets has an estate, in other words, this does not necessarily mean the person is deceased.
It may be that the estate would have been exhausted prior to his death in 1952.
Minniehaha.
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Greetings Spades.
From what I read into the file heading I wondered if it was legal language pertaining to to a Court Judgment re committal, and who should be taking charge of any personal effects of consequence. Eg Public Trustee.
But from the time lines supplied in the forum and by PM I, wondered about what interest H. ALDER may have had in the Koheroa, Mercer address, just some 65 km from the Auckland CBD. Occupation there would not presumably have been for very long. Unless funds were invested upon arrival in the country.
Alan.
PS Re #26. By PM I was one of the first to explain to the OP how to access records at either Wellington or Auckland. Short for time I skip read and stuffed up my offer for any Auckland look ups and it is known that that offer still stands, but I expect February will be the first time I can attend in person. When in attendance, if not accessed by others beforehand, I will seek Archives assistance to locate any records available for public viewing, that have not been individually catalogued that MAY pertain to this enquirey. There is also potential for pre committal general hospital registrations that may help with timelines. [Perhaps my on line request for assistance could have been better worded "look-up" instead of "look see".
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Hi Alan,
The file gives his occupation, but I'll leave it to Christiana to answer you once she's seen the images.
Spades
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Yes spades. She knows she is free to contact me if she chooses to do so. She is new to research in NZ, but told her there are many specialists on here that can help her.
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Plenty of us are helping her, Fresh Fields, many of us with extensive experience at ArchivesNZ. So don't fret!
Cheers
DebNZ
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Thanks Alan and Minniehaha for the background information.
The Jack ALDER who died in 1951 was from Huntly, a Slag Works Worker/Farmer.
The Kiwi Index has no mention of a Herbert ALDER.
Nothing on Papers Past after the 1927 notices seeking information about his whereabouts.
Archway doesn't list any patient Registers for Avondale Mental Hospital, although this file seems promising, perhaps:
https://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=20122657
Were there any other mental hospitals in the Auckland region that he might have been admitted to?
I think purchasing the death certificate is the key.
Spades
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Were there any other mental hospitals in the Auckland region that he might have been admitted to?
Spades
Kingseat ??
Cheers
KHP
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Thanks KHP,
There's 34 files listed on Archway. Most are restricted.
If I recall correctly there was a lookup service by a NZSG branch for BD & M notices published in the New Zealand Herald . Does anyone know?
There might have been a death notice.
And treading very lightly on Janette's area of expertise, the funeral director involved might still have that information as well as names of any relatives aware of his death.
Spades
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Thanks KHP,
If I recall correctly there was a lookup service by a NZSG branch for BD & M notices published in the New Zealand Herald . Does anyone know?
Spades
North Shore Branch.
Cheers
KHP
EDITED Spades look inside the back page of Mag. 6th one up from bottom :D
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Aha! :) Ta muchly, KHP. 8)
Maybe sit on that option until we see what else we discover.
Spades
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Herbert (Jack) died in 1952 and is buried in Waikumete.
Cheers
DebNZ
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Herbert (Jack) died in 1952 and is buried in Waikumete.
Cheers
DebNZ
See reply #11..........
Minniehaha.
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Herbert (Jack) died in 1952 and is buried in Waikumete.
Cheers
DebNZ
Can it be confirmed that this Herbert is in fact the man (Jack) we are looking for and not someone else?
Cheers Janette
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I think we can assume so.
Herbert Tristam Lawrence ALDER was also known by the nickname 'Jack' (as per the article linked to in Reply#11). His name is pretty unique.
The other 'Jack ALDER', who died in 1951, was too young to be him.
Spades
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The age of the deceased in 1952 ties in with the birth year mentioned in one of the Papers Past items re Herbert Tristram Lawrence. [reply#10] And the cemetery records show Herbert Alder as being a 'mental patient' [reply#11]..........
Minniehaha.
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If as Spades mentioned, if there was a death notice, notices before 1955 were usually short and sweet, just telling you the time of the funeral, hardly relatives were mentioned or children, only the surviving/deceased spouse.
Cheers
KHP
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Sorry, I'm in the UK so asleep when everyone's awake haha Thank you so much for the file Spades!
With regard to occupation, that file Spades managed to get states "farmer".
When Jack left England to go to California, he went there, and lived there for 6 years, apparently learning how to grow fruit. In November 1901, Herbert, was registered as being in the South African Constabulary, no. 1994, Detail Troop, A Division, Krugersdorp. (I have never seen any document to prove this one, but his brother did live in South Africa) In 1904, Herbert appears to have returned to California, travelling at some point around 1907 to Australia, and the following year to New Zealand, where he took up employment with the construction of a railway line... so it seems he was a man with a lot of occupations lol
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Thanks Alan and Minniehaha for the background information.
The Jack ALDER who died in 1951 was from Huntly, a Slag Works Worker/Farmer.
The Kiwi Index has no mention of a Herbert ALDER.
Edit
Were there any other mental hospitals in the Auckland region that he might have been admitted to?
Edit
Spades
All the hospital names I quoted in #21 could have been used with regard to paitients gaining mental health assistance, since the advent of hospitals in Auckland. Some were the same campas just a different administration. Therefore an admittance ledger started and now saved under one filed name may in it's later [year] entries, contain info that would otherwise be catalogued differently, if entries were itemised.
If a study is made of the Alder surmane, it can be seen that there were several family groups scattered throughout NZ. One such family [Jack] was at Huntly. At the start I quickly found a number of NZ registrations containing Adler and Herbert etc as Christian names and wondered
if there may have been a link to the family the research is about. However as two generations of this family were Ministers of religion in the UK, there could have been other reasons for an association through the Christian names of a child of later generations.
Alan.
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RE Death Notice 1952.
If as it appears Herbert was a comitted health patient from 1917 until his death 1952, and his NOK were unaware of his existance. I doubt that any Executor would be publishing a death notice, BUT if assets still remained in his name they may have published a notice about claims upon, or disbursment.
Alan.
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There were many newspaper notices but, anyway, the death cert has been received today.
DebNZ
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the death cert has been received today.
DebNZ
Hi Deb,does it state the name of the institution?
All these names were what the institution was known by
Whau Lunatic Asylum (or: Lunatic Asylum at the Whau; later: Auckland Lunatic Asylum, Avondale Lunatic Asylum, Avondale Hospital, Auckland Mental Health Hospital, Oakley Hospital; Carrington Psychiatric Hospital; commonly Carrington/Oakley Hospital) was a psychiatric hospital on the Oakley Farm Estate in Point Chevalier, Auckland, New Zealand. Built in 1865 on the Great North Road, it was one of the largest asylums in the Colony.
The records at Archives could be under any of those names depending on their dates
Cheers Janette
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It's Kingseat in Papakura, Janette.
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Not sure that this is particularly helpful, but maybe?.......
http://archives.govt.nz/sites/default/files/mental_health_0.pdf
Minniehaha.