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General => Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing => Topic started by: Eric Hatfield on Friday 04 January 19 21:17 GMT (UK)
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I have uploaded FTDNA results to My Heritage for myself, my aunt, my wife and my mother-in-law. There is no known endogamy or cousin marriages between my wife's family and mine, and our families come from different parts of the UK (hers from Scotland and southwest England, mine from Ireland and Yorkshire). So you wouldn't expect there to be any matches between her side of the family and mine.
But recently I learned of an interesting My Heritage feature, where I can select for those who are both DNA matches ad Family tree "Smart matches". I was trying this out, and I found someone here in Australia who apparently matches all four of us, as follows:
Me: 54.5 cM
My aunt: 63.1 cM
My wife: 10.7 cM
My mother-in-law: 19.2 cM
I am struggling to explain this except as a mistake. The match with my family is quite strong, while the match with my wife's is much weaker, but 10.7 and 19.2 hardly seem like matches that would be found in a whole population.
Has anyone got an explanation please, or have had a similar experience?
Thanks.
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Eric, I tried this out as well when I heard of it recently. Not the same experience as yours, will be interested to see if any one else has.
I thought I must have been looking at my matches, whereas in fact I was looking at my husband's.
Two Smart Match of his were flagged because they had the same Steer line in their tree, my maiden name, but not as direct ancestors.
He is also a Smart Match with descendants of one of our son in law's ancestors. Conceivably, if s-i-l were tested, he would also match this person. But they do at least have common ancestry from Yorkshire, there is bound to be a bit of an overlap.
Basically, the Smart Match will identify if you have the same person in your tree, but not necessarily that you or your match are descended from them. Out of 5 Smart DNA Matches, I have been unable to positively connect to any of them.
So, not the same situation as yours, but highlighting some problems with Smart DNA Matches.
I'll be interested to see how yours turns out. I would hesitate before calling it a mistake, there should be another explanation. Does she actually on paper descend from the same family line as any of you?
Regards Margaret
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Have just checked my own Smart Matches, 3 of them. The first two are valid, relating to a family where there are a lot of descendants who have had DNA testing.
The third one is a Smart Match with my son in law's family again, from Yorkshire, though not as direct ancestor of the match.
All of my family were from London and South of England.
(No offence to Northerners, I am now a fully paid up member living in Cheshire).
Regards Margaret
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Yes, the Smart Matches side of this is a little doubtful. In my case, I have only one family tree and it is for my side of the family, doesn't include my wife or mother-in-law, so it uses my tree for their smart matches, which isn't smart. If there was some way I could say they had no tree, I'd do that, but I can't find any. Of course, all this is because I am not subscribed, just using their free service. I am thinking of subscribing for a while and putting more than one tree on their, which would remove this problem, but when my subscription finished I'm not sure what would happen to me second tree as the combined number of people would be well over 250. So I think there are issues with all that if I don't stay subscribed, but who can afford to stay permanently subscribed to one of these services?
But I accept all that. And I can see that the process we are discussing isn't the source of the problem. I can find these same matches if I search hard enough in the straight DNA matches. So now I should restate the problem.
I have found someone who is supposedly a match to both sides of my family - myself and my aunt are more strongly related to the match while my wife and mother-in-law are weakly related. You expect this if the people came from the same area, but I don't know of any in the time frame we are expecting.
If this isn't a mistake, which I guess you are right that it isn't, then there must be some connection way back between both sides of my family, unlikely as that appears (since they come from different parts of the UK).
I think what I should be reading up on is how much DNA may be in common between people who are not related within a reasonable number of generations, and the "match" comes from way way back when virtually everyone is related.
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Eric.
As for your main question, I did say that mine was not the same experience as yours, for which I have no answer. But how did you find out that they matched all of you? If I look at my husband's results they are completely separate from mine. Or did you take notes and cross check?
The match with your wife's mother would nearly count as 4th to 6th cousin at ancestry, so not insignificant.
Do your aunt and your mother-in-law show as matches of any sort? For a true match all 5 of you should match each other as well as this Australian match, I would have thought.
One way round your tree problem, upload a gedcom.
I did this some time ago. I get reminders every so often that my tree exceeds the limit and even one phone call from them (I asked how they got my phone number as I had not given it to them, but the caller was unwilling or unable to tell me).
Regards Margaret
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A thought.
Are you looking at this from the wrong view point?
Wife's family from Scotland and southwest England, yours from Ireland and Yorkshire. No known connection.
Australian match has family from Ireland and Yorkshire, probably, as she had same names and places on her tree.
Has she also got ancestry from Scotland and SW England? Is it her family where there is the dual connection?
Regards Margaret
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Hi Margaret, thanks for your replies.
But how did you find out that they matched all of you? If I look at my husband's results they are completely separate from mine. Or did you take notes and cross check?
Each of the four of us have between 4000 and 8000 matches (500-800 pages), so these matches with the same person (I'll call them 'A') were on the first page for my aunt and I, but buried down deep in the pages for my wife and mother-in-law. So I noticed the matches for my aunt and I, but not for the others.
When I tried the filter of "also having smart matches in my tree", the match for A showed up for me, which excited me, but when I checked the smart match, it was for my grandmother's adoptive parents, who shouldn't be related to me, unless she was adopted because she was born to a family member, perhaps even her adoptive father.
This was a lead I was very interested in, so I checked the match between my aunt and A, and they matched as well, which bothered me because she isn't (as far as I know) related to my grandmother at all. So then I did the filtered match with my wife and mother-in-law, and A showed up again because My Heritage associates my tree with them too, even though they don't appear on my tree.
So I only found that all four match A because of using the filtering, because the filtering only shows a few DNA matches who are also (supposedly) smart matches, and it is easy to check each one.
So I have used the chromosome browser, and found that my aunt, A and I share a decent segment (25cM), while my wife and my mother-in-law share a smaller and different segment with A. My aunt and I have no matches with my wife or mother-in-law. So A is supposedly connected differently with each side of the family.
So it is quite confusing (to me, at any rate). I suppose there must always be possibilities of very distant connections between families we don't think are related.
One way round your tree problem, upload a gedcom.
I don't know how this works. I have stripped back my tree to 225 so I can fit with the Basic Plan, and as far as I know I can only have 250 people before I need to subscribe.
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Is it her family where there is the dual connection?
If the results are genuine, then A and my wife & mother-in-law must have a common ancestor many generations back (say something more than 6 or 8), while A has a common ancestor with my aunt and I only a few generations ago. I guess that isn't impossible, maybe not even uncommon, but it just seemed like a coincidence that I was suspicious of.
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Eric
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One way round your tree problem, upload a gedcom.
I don't know how this works. I have stripped back my tree to 225 so I can fit with the Basic Plan, and as far as I know I can only have 250 people before I need to subscribe."
Eric, Here is how to upload a gedcom to myheritage -
https://faq.myheritage.com/Family-Site/Import-Export-GEDCOM-online/951696821/How-do-I-import-a-GEDCOM-file-to-my-family-site-on-MyHeritage.htm
However large the gedcom is, it will accept it. As I said, I get reminders that my tree exceeds the limit, inviting me to upgrade. So far, I haven't done so and would trim it down if required to do so.
Regards Margaret
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OK, that make sense (although it is strange My Heritage allows that loophole). Thanks.
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I too got a smart matches email from MyHeritage, initially I assumed I had some sort of new DNA match but that wasn't so (and I wasted a lot of time wondering why I couldn't find a DNA match despite clicking the link). Eventually I checked the wording of the email: somebody I've never heard of has "confirmed 4 Smart Matches between his family tree and yours". When I looked at his tree I can see that he does indeed have the four names identified, but looking critically at his tree I think he's not considered whether the locations fit or perhaps the Atlantic Ocean might be in the way and also has amalgamated a couple of generations so that one couple apparently continues to have children long after the wife's death.
Needless to say I've not confirmed the match.
Jane :-)
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Eric, I suggest you start a new thread, without mentioning myheritage or Smart Matches. People may feel your original question has been answered without reading through it.
Without meaning to it has become more a discussion about Smart Matches than about your real query.
Sorry if it got derailed a bit by me.
My feeling is that you are not in any way shape or form connected genetically to your wife.
A(ustralian) matches with you and your aunt on one side of her tree, and your wife and mother-in-law on an unrelated side of her tree, or it is indeed an error.
Do you and your wife's family match at your original testing company? Do you all match A on the same segments? Does A have widespread ancestry?
Regards Margaret
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Do you all match A on the same segments?
I was wondering about this Margaret. Eric might have mentioned it and I could have missed it. My Heritage chromosome matching is pretty straight forward.
Gadget
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Eric, For example, please correct me if I am wrong -
MRCA of wife, mil and A are perhaps mutual 7G grandparents, B and C from SW England.
MRCA of you, your aunt and A are perhaps mutual 4G grandparents, D and E from Yorkshire.
If descendants of B and C in A's line marry descendants from D's line, A will match all of you, will be closer related to you than your wife and will have ancestors from both Yorkshire and SW England.
But B and C are not related to D and E at all, you still have no ancestors from SW England and are not related to your wife, other than by marriage to her.
In chromosome browser, A may match with all of you, but with you and your aunt on one chromosome, your wife and mil on another one.
A bit of a coincidence, if this is the explanation, but life is full of coincidences.
Examine A's tree for any likely intermarriages between the four main areas of interest.
Regards Margaret
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'MRCA' = ?
following the thread with interest, but new to dna so not sure of abbreviation, thanks.
Lisa :)
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Sorry, Lisa.
Most Recent Common Ancestor/s
Regards Margaret
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Sorry, Lisa.
Most Recent Common Ancestor/s
Regards Margaret
thanks Margaret :)
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I too got a smart matches email from MyHeritage
Hi Jane, yes I agree, many "smart matches" or hints are dubious at best and quite obviously wrong at worst. But DNA matches are more objective, and it is that side of the double matches that I am querying.
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Hi Margaret,
If descendants of B and C in A's line marry descendants from D's line, A will match all of you, will be closer related to you than your wife and will have ancestors from both Yorkshire and SW England.
I think something like this must be the explanation. Using the hypothetical figures you have used, there would be 64 4G grandparents on one side and 512 7G grandparents on the other side (if I have calculated correctly). Each of these would have many, many descendants today. It just requires two of these descendants to have got together to produce A - unlikely to happen all that often I guess, but must happen sometimes, especially when people from different parts of UK migrate to Australia. I just haven't seen it before myself.
Then there is the coincidence of there being not only a DNA match, but also a paper match with my grandmother's adoptive parents.
Examine A's tree for any likely intermarriages between the four main areas of interest.
A only has a small tree, with only one line going back very far, and that is the one who has my grandmother's adoptive parents in it. I have messaged A, but no answer yet.
I suggest you start a new thread, without mentioning myheritage or Smart Matches. People may feel your original question has been answered without reading through it.
Yes you are right. I originally thought it was an artefact of the filtered match process, but I agree now that it isn't, and that was a red herring. I can now ask a quite different question. So I will start a new discussion. Thanks.
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=806288.new#new
:) :)
Regards Margaret