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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Littlebn20 on Saturday 05 January 19 11:33 GMT (UK)
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Sorry if this thread has been covered before. I have reached a dead end on ancestry.co.uk so looking here for help.
My grandfather was a decedent of Huguenots in the East End of London, his surname actually being Weaver. His family were in fact Weavers when they first settled here. On the paternal line I can only get as far as Henry Weaver, who was born in 1826. On his marriage certificate in 1859 (married in Stepney St Dunstan), his father is named as Robert Weaver and deceased. I can't find any further Robert Weavers in that area, just a Henry Robert Weaver, who sort of fits. Would this be common to use a middle name? In addition to this, I presume that Weaver was an anglicised name based on the occupation, however, would anyone have any clue what it might have been anglicised from? Everyone that I have found so far is in Bethnal Green/Whitechapel/Stepney etc. I am just wondering why I might have reached a dead end and if anyone had any tips for over-coming it! I am certain that the Weavers were always based in the area so thought that I would find it easier to trace them! Many thanks in advance.
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Hello & welcome
What information do you have that the family descended from Huguenots ?
To answer your question it was common for people to use middle names.
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Quite a tricky one to answer. My Grandad always knew that He was a huguenot descendant and that his family were silk weavers for Elizabeth I. They have always had their roots in the east end in the paternal line. That's all I really have to go on but I genuinely have no doubts about it as was always told it as a kid too and would be a strange thing to say if not true.
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My ex husbands family are descended from the Hugenots in East London as well and although they stayed pretty close, there are a few further out into more central London. Managed to trace his family back to c1600 in Belgium but given its the ex I havent spent any real time on it!
Its possible that the family (or part of it) went back and forth to France/Belgium, I found the odd relative to married, died etc in France or in Belgium despite everyone else being in London. Have you looked further afield?
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This is really helpful. I haven't. Cpuld I find that on outbound passenger mists maybe?
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Sorry. My predictive text drives me mad! Passenger lists. Thank you so much for your replies.
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You may have your timeline wrong, Elizabeth 1st died in 1603, the Edict of Fontainebleau was in 1685.
Some of the early Huguenots went to Canterbury, maybe they moved from there to London?
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Sorry. My predictive text drives me mad! Passenger lists. Thank you so much for your replies.
I found most of mine on Ancestry tbh.
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It seems like you are right! :)
Thank you, that's a good lead!
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Is he the Henry Weaver who married Ann Hill on 24 October 1859 (at All Saints’ Mile End rather than St Dunstan’s)? If so his deceased father Robert’s occupation was stated as labourer rather than weaver.
It’s wise to keep a very open mind about even the most confident family stories whilst diligently tracing the facts generation by generation. If my family’s myths were anything to go by:
Our Scott line were related to Sir Walter Scott (they weren’t)
Our Lonsdale line were related to the Earls of Lonsdale (not even close - their family name is Lowther!)
We had a South American ancestor (nope, but an English ancestor did move to South America)
We had a French ancestor who taught languages to Queen Victoria’s children (this one might be true)
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Yep! That's him. How interesting. In any case, I can't seem to trace him anywhere. Interesting that it would be made up, given the surname. Maybe it was a presumption rather than a fact then?
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Although, would they still be weaving then? Is it possible that the occupation had changed by that time, or not at all possible?
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All sorts of things are possible, but it’s important to start from documented facts and resist the temptation (which I am sure we all have from time to time) to bend those facts towards a preferred narrative. This temptation can be particularly strong if it is an inherited narrative in which the family has some level of emotional investment.
So the recorded facts about Henry Weaver at the time of his marriage in October 1859 are that he was a 30 year old whip maker and hawker of 2 Dunk St, Mile End New Town (same address as his 30 yr old bride, Ann Hill). His father is recorded as Robert Weaver, a deceased labourer. The marriage witnesses were both Hills, so presumably related to the bride rather than the groom.
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Totally get it. I don't have a preferred narrative per say. I wish I could find more out about Robert as it would give me more clues! Thanks for all your input!
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I see that Henry and Ann had been together for quite some time before they married.
In 1851 they are at 4 New Court, Whitechapel with son William aged 18mo. Henry is 24, a boot maker born Bethnal Green.
In 1861 they are at 2 Dunk St, Stepney (same address as on the marriage). They now have 6 children. Henry is 34, a labourer born Bethnal Green.
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It seems to me that this baptism is a likely match (sounds like you have already seen it):
St Dunstan, Stepney
17 December 1826
Henry Weaver, son of Henry Robert (a labourer) and Susan, of Mile End Old Town.
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Yep. That's the one I saw too. I shall pursue that a bit then. Again, thank you for your input. I have just found out (through ancestry DNA) that my Nans mum had a back story so far removed from wjat my Nan was led to believe that it was quote shocking! So I believe anything is possible. Chinese whispers and all that!
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If these are from the same family the father seems to have gone by Robert on other children’s baptisms:
St Dunstan, Stepney, 28 November 1819
Susan, dau of Robert Weaver (labourer) and Susan, of Mile End Old Town, born 6 November
Sarah, dau of the same, born 6 April 1811
St Matthew, Bethnal Green, 26 September 1830
James, born 3 Oct 1815, son of Robert Weaver (chaff cutter) and Susan, of Church St.
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Great! I will check it out. I wish I could find some sort of birth record or something for Robert directly. I am pretty new to this, but extremely keen to get to the bottom of it. Looks like I have a busy and fruitless afternoon ahead of me! ;D
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Trying to go straight from Henry’s baptism to Robert’s baptism is jumping the gun - you need to find out about Robert and Susan’s life together first in order to get a sense of where Robert was from and his likely birthdate.
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Agreed!
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Suggested marriage:
20 August 1810 at Christ Church, Spitalfields
Robert Weaver, bachelor, of this parish
Susannah Cooper, spinster, of this parish
Both made their mark.
Witnesses: Rees Price, C Yates (my reading of both).
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This is incredible! Thank you
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So if this is all the right family we have this chronology for them so far:
1810: Marriage of Robert Weaver to Susannah Cooper, Spitalfields
1811: Birth of Sarah (baptised in Stepney 28 Nov 1819)
1815: Birth of James (baptised in Bethnal Green, 26 Sep 1830)
1819: Birth of Susan (baptised in Stepney 28 Nov 1819)
1826: Birth of Henry (baptised in Stepney 17 Dec 1826)
1859: Marriage of Henry in Mile End - father Robert deceased by this date.
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Further possible marriages for this family:
James Weaver to Jane Moses, 27 Dec 1841 Stepney. Father: Robert Weaver, carpenter* :(
Sarah Weaver to James Broadhurst, 17 May 1846 Lambeth. Father: Robert Weaver, labourer.
Susan Weaver to James Pearce, 14 Apr 1850 Hammersmith. Father: Robert Weaver, labourer.
*Not an obvious match on paternal occupation, clearly, but there is at least a similarity between James’ signature on this marriage record and that of “J Weaver” who witnessed Sarah’s marriage in 1846.
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This is great work. I am currently in the bank waiting to be seen. Can't wait to get stuck in when back at home-! I am so very grateful. Thank you
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Further possible marriages for this family:
James Weaver to Jane Moses, 27 Dec 1841 Stepney. Father: Robert Weaver, carpenter* :(
Sarah Weaver to James Broadhurst, 17 May 1846 Lambeth. Father: Robert Weaver, labourer.
Susan Weaver to James Pearce, 14 Apr 1850 Hammersmith. Father: Robert Weaver, labourer.
*Not an obvious match on paternal occupation, clearly, but there is at least a similarity between James’ signature on this marriage record and that of “J Weaver” who witnessed Sarah’s marriage in 1846.
Suggestion for Susan and her husband in 1851:
2 Batty Gardens, St George in the East
James Pearce Head Mar 37 Labourer Middx Westminster
Susan Pearce Wife Mar 32 Middx Whitechapel
HO107/1547/143/32.
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Further possible marriages for this family:
James Weaver to Jane Moses, 27 Dec 1841 Stepney. Father: Robert Weaver, carpenter* :(
Sarah Weaver to James Broadhurst, 17 May 1846 Lambeth. Father: Robert Weaver, labourer.
Susan Weaver to James Pearce, 14 Apr 1850 Hammersmith. Father: Robert Weaver, labourer.
*Not an obvious match on paternal occupation, clearly, but there is at least a similarity between James’ signature on this marriage record and that of “J Weaver” who witnessed Sarah’s marriage in 1846.
James and Sarah Broadhurst had a daughter Sarah Ann on 12 June 1847 (baptised Lambeth 12 Nov 1848).
Sarah and Sarah Ann are at Isabella St, Lambeth, in 1851 & 1861 - Sarah marked as a widow (50 b St Luke’s, per 1861, so looks a good match for the right Sarah).
Her husband may have been the James Broadhurst who died Sep qtr 1847 Lambeth aged 39.
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Thank you to everyone for your help and input. I have been searching all day and Henry Robert,or Robert still alludes me! I can't make up my mind who he is. There is a Robert Weaver born in Kent in 1788 (close to Canterbury) but I do thing that it is Henry Robert who is the right fit. I am starting to doubt the Huguneot narrative now. I nore that the french for Weaver is Tisserand and the Dutch is
Wever. Not sure where to go from here really, but I will keep at it and welcome any advice!
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You need to trace him from when & where he is known to be alive (the baptisms) - try and find him alive in a census and/or buried with an age at death.
As I said before it is jumping the gun to try and alight upon a baptism without doing the documentary legwork on his life.
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Thank you. I agree.
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One to look at, albeit a slightly unexpected name:
Registered at Dr Williams’ Library, Redcross St, Cripplegate (i.e. nonconformist)
These are to certify that Robert Ham Weaver, son of Robert Ham Weaver & Elizabeth his wife, who was daughter of James & Elizabeth Cordell, was born in Booth St in the hamlet of Mile End New Town in the parish of St Dunstan Stepney [ ] in the county of Middlesex this 3rd day of June 1784, at whose birth we were present: Susannah Hill, midwife; Esther Cordell.
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Wonderful! Thank you. I will have a gander at this now!
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How do you find this stuff so quickly? It seems to take me forever!
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Years of practice :)
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Practice makes perfect! I can't even find these names on ancestry! Robert Weaver, whomever he was, is still haunting me ha ha. I am so determined. I have a day out planned in Spitalfields on Wednesday, which would have been my Granddads 100th birthday. Was going to visit the Huguenot museum there but might be a bit of a fruitless visit given that I can;t find any links. Thank you so much again. Your insight and expertise have been extremely helpful!
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Thank you again to everyone for your advice.
I have taken it and have found out (Henry) Robert Weaver's wherebouts for the periods between 1815 and 1830 through looking at the baptism record of the children. So I have Church Street in Bethnall Green which looks like a tenemant slum area at the time. Interestingly enough, searching though the tennants of the address I believe that I may have located Susannah Cooper's parents or grandparents, which is quite good! I also did some reading that the huguneot weavers had all but disappeared from that area by that specific area, which I founf quite interesting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Nichol
Another address is Princes Street in Mile End. Alas, I can still not find census records, or birth records to match. Their parishes at the tme seem to be All Saints in Spitalfields, St Dunstan to the East and St Boltophs. So many Weaver surnames in their records and also a very interesting influx of 'De Wevers' from Belgium in around 1560. Presume this is what eventually becaume the surname Weaver. Thinking of going back in my family tree a few steps to see if I have missed anything as I sure that the answers should be clearer than this with such a prominent name for the area at the time! I think the problem is juast HOW many Weaver there seem to be. I could have gone wrong somewere (although, gut insticnct still says not as Robert is a running name throughout the generations of my family, it was also my granddads middle name). Alfred also appears a lot.
I will keep plugging away at this and let you know if I come up with anything. Hopefully I am getting closer but if there is anywhere else I should be looking, please let me know. For anyone remotely interested, this is where I have go to....
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/50875664/family/familyview
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As avm228 has rightly pointed out, you need to concentrate on Robert Weaver first. Have you looked for his death/burial? Work back from the marriage of your ancestor where Robert is described as deceased. Alternatively see if you can see him in the 1851 census so you can narrow down the search.
You won't find a huguenot connection for at least 3 or 4 generations, if not more. Most surnames were anglicized in the 18th century.
If you do find such a connection there are plenty of resources online.
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That's what I have been attempting. Canr seem to find home on a census anywhere, that's the problem. I have addresses for him through his children's baptisms so I know thay he was in the area from 1811 to 1826 and the deceased by 1859. Can't find a birth record. I know that some of them were in work houses and have found a Henry Weaver in one on 1851 census. Strange thing is, I can't find her anywhere on a census either!
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Sorry to be a pain with all my questions. I have traced Henry/Robert now to about 5 addresses through his marriage and the baptism of his children. Does anyone know of a common reason that he might not appear on ANY census?
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If he travelled for his job it might just be a coincidence that he wasnt home on census days
And lodgers are harder to find on searches than head of houses
If you list the childrens addresses that you found someone might come across those addresses on a different document .
Ps have you had any WEAVER or HALL s at all from your DNA matches yet
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That's useful, thank you. I have a Weaver/Hill DNA match, maybe two through James' brother Alfred I think. Not a particularly close one. I keep thinking that I have gone wrong somewhere but all the evidence points to begin correct up to Henry Weaver/Ann Hill. Other Ancestry member have the same family in their trees also. Very frustrating that I am still stuck after so long.
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I have Bethnal Green silk weavers in my paternal line, again with the suggested Huguenot link. There was no Huguenot background but one of the children married into a Huguenot family so I think that is where that myth came from.
I eventually tracked him down to a birth in Alton, Hampshire from where he had been apprenticed to a weaver in Bethnal Green following the death of his father, so no background of silk weaving. There were also a couple of settlement certificates for him in Bethnal Green which all padded out his life.
What I am really saying is keep a very open mind both about the Huguenot ancestry and where he originated from.
Try apprenticeship papers/settlement papers.
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Oh yes, I have learned this the hard way. Apparently it was quite trendy to say that you were Huguenots at the time and I can see how this is a conclusion/myth that could easily be drawn/led to by the surname Weaver and with roots in Bethnal Green and Spitalfields. It is certainly what my Grandad was always told/believed. Seems to be a lot of records missing. For example Roberts discharge from the workhouse, without any admission. No visible birth record etc etc. Understand that this is pretty typical of East London records as lots were destroyed during the war. ::)
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In the marriage records, if it says 'of this parish', does that mean that they had to be born there or could it mean that they just resided there at the time?
Thank you all :)
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Of this parish (otp) for marriage records simply means that there was a period of residence required - I think 3 weeks prior to marriage in that parish. It bears no relation to where they were born or even living.
Pheno
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I too am interested in silk weavers from Spitalfields/Bethnal Green.
I have traced back to a Benjamin Holloway born c 1757 but unfortunately there are (at least) two. One is the son of John and Mildred, the other is the son of Jeremiah and Mary and 'they' married Mary Hobbs, Ann Stevens, Hannah Golding, Sarah LeSerf and Sarah Layton. In 1783 Banns were also called 3 times for Benjamin Holloway widower and Sarah Stewart in Spitalfields, although I haven't found a wedding.
26 Jul 1773, Saint Leonard's, Shoreditch, Benjamin Holloway batch and Mary Hobbs both otp witnesses James and Samuel Flack?
15 May 1780 St Leonard's, Shoreditch, Benjamin Holloway, Batchelor and Sarah Leserf witnesses Henry Sparrow and William Burgess.
16 Oct 1783 St Leonard's, Shoreditch, Benjamin Holloway widower and Hannah Goldring, witnesses William Burgess and ??ire Holloway
28 Feb 1788 St Dunstan, Stepney Ann Stevens and Benjamin Holloway widower of MEOT, Witnesses James Brown and Samuel Mears?
1790 St Leonard's Shoreditch Sarah Layton and Benjamin Holloway Widower, witnesses William Holloway and Ann Bourn both otp
I think Hannah died in 1787 and Ann in 1822. I haven't found a death for Mary of for either Sarah, a Sarah, and Benjamin baptised a daughter in 1803
I believe 'my line' is via Ann Stevens and son John bap 1 Jan 1800, St Leonard's, Shoreditch Son of Benjamin and Ann Holloway of New Inn Yard.
Benjamin and Ann had children called John, Mildred, Mary (1792) and Jeremiah - so not much help there deciding who Benjamin's parents are. Mary Holloway born 1792 married Thomas Swan they had daughters Hannah, Margaret and Mildred and a son Benjamin and I have a DNA link.
One of the Benjamin's appears to have died in 1829 and be buried in Bunhill's Cemetery
If anyone can shed further light on this I would be delighted!
Gill
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Sounds like you share my frustrations Gill :)
I think that one of my ancestors were in New Inn Yard at the time also. Can only imagine how many people lived there and the conditions that they lived in. I am now resorting to making a spreadsheet of all of the Robert Weavers in England, born at the same time. Have already ruled out half.Driving me potty!
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Hello, my ancestors were also named Weaver and come from the Spitalfields area and lived in New Inn Yard for a while. My 3rd great grandfather was a silk Weaver, Richard Weaver. I know his father was Benjamin Weaver but have no paperwork to say that he also was a Weaver by trade. I have found no Huguenot connections yet. I have had a DNA test on ancestry and was wondering if we were related at all!
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Hello again littlebn, I just realised that we have spoken before on ancestry, oops. I still think that you are looking for Henry Robert Weaver. Will have better look. Also I think we were not related by DNA if I can remember right. The search continues!