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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Sussex => England => Sussex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: jillruss on Saturday 05 January 19 17:09 GMT (UK)
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I'm tracing back a DNA match all the way from New Zealand via Australia and now in Sussex.
Not having much experience of researching in Sussex, internet coverage seems a bit bitty. Either that or I'm looking in the wrong places!
I have Jonathan Thorpe and his wife Elizabeth (nee Chatfield) who emigrated to Australia in 1854.
Jonathan was baptised in Barcombe 1803 son of George & Mary, but the only possible marriage I can find is 1797 in Ringmer between George Thorpe and MARTHA Philcox. I wondered if the name Mary in the Barcombe register might have been an error but there is another child attributed to George and MARY in Barcombe in 1807 - Mercy.
Avoiding the marriage, I tried to find a suitable baptism for George Thorpe (say, 1770-85) in Sussex without success.
I'm keen to follow this DNA match through as far as I can because it may or may not link up with a long held theory of mine concerning a particular stubborn brickwall in my tree.
Any help would be great!
Jill
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There is a widowed Martha Thorpe in Lewes in 1851 with a son Richard. Martha is age 86 bn Barcombe - Richard age 40 bn Barcombe H0107/1643 f393 p16. Do they tie in with what you know.
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Thanks, Rosie.
I think this Martha is a good bet to be the one who married George, and Richard is possibly Jonathan's brother. I found Martha on the 1841 census as well and she's a pauper living in Barcombe with another lady of the same age.
Assuming, if this is the correct Martha, her husband George must have died before 1841, I found a burial for George Thorpe in Barcombe in 1834 aged 78. I can't find a baptism for Richard Thorpe around 1811 either.
This would mean I'm looking for baptisms for George Thorpe around 1756 and for his wife Martha (maiden name unknown but possibly Philcox) around 1765 - both older than I'd thought.
However, I've looked at both FindMyPast and Ancestry's catalogues and, apart from burials on FindMyPast, neither seem to have much of anything for Sussex, nor does Family Search so I'm stuck!!
Any ideas?
Jill
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I've just had a quick look at the SFHG database and there don't seem to be very many Thorpes in Barcombe at all - many more in nearby Fletching and Maresfield so the marriage in Ringmer might well be the correct one - I'll have a look in the Sussex Marriage Index for you.
Liz
PS Maybe I'm biased - OK, I know I am ;D - but once you find your way around, Sussex is an amazingly well resourced county - the best - not least because of everything the SFHG has to offer its members!
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From my experience, Sussex records have pretty sparse online coverage.
There is some coverage of Barcombe on FreeREG. Including a baptism of Emilia Walker Thorpe in 1817, base born daughter of Martha. Could be connected to your family.... Unfortunately marriages around that time are not yet transcribed.
I grew up around that area, and Barcombe is pretty close to Ringmer.
P.S. love your avatar Liz_in_Sussex :)
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P.S. love your avatar Liz_in_Sussex :)
Thanks!
I have done a search on the SMI for Thorpe marriages in Sussex between 1780 and 1820 - only 2 to a George and one would not be possible and the other is the one you found, Jill.
Interestingly there are 2 "Thorpe = Chatfield" marriages both in Fletching - one in 1786 and the other 1798 so I wonder if that parish has some links to the family given the later marriage of the couple who emigrated?
There are 2 Barcombe 'Thorpe' marriages:
3 Oct 1793 Jane Thorpe (of Barcombe) to James Harriott (of Hamsey)
29 July 1813 William Thorpe to Elizabeth Coppard (both of Barcombe)
A bit earlier, but maybe of interest, there is a George Thorpe (of Maresfield) marriage to Mary Skinner of Hadlow in Kent - which took place in the latter's parish on 28 Jan 1777.
Liz
PS I have the Fletching Chatfields in my tree ... but they stayed put in Sussex and haven't travelled very far at all!
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However, I've looked at both FindMyPast and Ancestry's catalogues and, apart from burials on FindMyPast, neither seem to have much of anything for Sussex, nor does Family Search so I'm stuck!!
Jill
For Barcombe, FamilySearch has parish registers, BTs, some 19th century overseers records, land tax 1780-1832. All with images.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01n7v/
The Ringmer marriage of George + Martha is indexed on
England, Sussex, Parish Registers, 1538-1910
with the image of the register, they both marked
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KFGT-Z74
John
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Overseers accounts, first image I alighted on (honestly!)
George Thorp
getting a Coat
and then three shillings!
1805 I think
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-627S-6ZP?i=311&cat=217184
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The burial of Martha Thorpe at Barcombe in 1852 does give abode as Lewes :)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-625T-TN?i=377&cat=217184
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The 1851 census in Lewes gives Richard's occupation as Railway Porter.
There is a marriage at St Nicholas Brighton shortly afterwards, 25 May 1851
Richard Thorpe, Bachelor, Railway Servant, father George Thorpe, Labourer
+
Eleanor Hart
Image here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DBBS-HHR?i=246&cat=214220
A baptism at St Michael Lewes, 21 Sep 1851, of Richard, parents Richard + Eleanor Thorpe
Father a Porter
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-62KH-LZM?i=74&cat=216864
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Wow! What a lot of replies to wake up to! Thanks so much, everyone.
Liz, Barcombe was where Jonathan was born but his father George could have been from any of the nearby places you and others have mentioned, so I'm too worried about him not coming from Barcombe.
I must admit to still being worried that the marriage to Martha ( and not Mary) can't be right. The 1777 Kent marriage to Mary Skinner might be early but I'm also thinking if I've got the right death for George in 1834 aged 78 (i.e. born c 1756) he'd have been old enough to marry in 1777 and, if the couple returned to Sussex to live, any earlier children's baptisms won't be online either. (as in, no George, no Mary - at this time they usually named some of their early children after themselves).
It may just be that Martha is a complete red herring!! She can't be a second wife because Jonathan's and Mercy's baptisms in 1803 and 1807 respectively, name mother as Mary.
Liz, have you got very far back with the Fletching Chatfields in your tree? Anything going back earlier in the 1700s and, specifically, any connection to Cuckfield, Ardingly or to the surnames Beard or Symonds (numerous spellings)?
I don't know the area very well at all - infact, only recognise some of the placenames from tootling through on the train between London and Eastbourne!!
John, thanks for the links, though I couldn't find many 18th century PRs on Family Search, though I did look at the George/Martha marriage original. I liked the Overseers accounts - giving it the human touch.
There are 3 public trees on Ancestry with Jonathan on and none of them seem to agree. Infact they all but contradict each other, but I can see why now!!
Thanks, Jill
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From my experience, Sussex records have pretty sparse online coverage.
Are you a member of SFHG? Their online records are excellent.
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No, I'm not a member. As I've explained, I'm new to Sussex and have had no reason previously to join the FHS.
I've also checked the Sussex OPC and they seem to have very few baptism records before the 19th century - just a few here and there.
I think I'm fighting a losing battle here until one of the 'big boys' manages to get some detailed Sussex PRs online - are you listening FindMyPast?
Such a shame - I'd really have liked to establish my connection with the young lady in New Zealand and relayed the info to her but no doubt the info will emerge at some time.
Jill
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I have quickly scanned through the threads and not sure if the following was mentioned, a baptism of a George Thorp 29th Feb 1756 in Maresfield to John & Sarah.
This could tie in with that marriage to Mary Skinner.
Mary Skinner could be the one born 1752 in Hadlow, Kent to John & Mary.
However, I would then find it difficult to believe they could be the parents of Jonathan born in 1803 as she would be about 50.
From the 1785 Land Tax Records it could be John living at Batts Lane in Maresfield which was owned by John Smith.
Sean
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Also a bit of info you might not have about Jonathan & Elizabeth is that the JPs ordered a removal for them from Chailey to Barcombe in 1824.
Sean
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Just looking around the area, there are a number of births and deaths that could be related.
Hetty Thorp bap 20th Apr 1800 Newick - George & Mary
George Thorp died 1803 born 1802 buried in Barcombe (possible child perhaps?)
Jonathan bap 10th Sep 1803 Barcombe - George & Mary
Richard bap 30th Jun 1805 Isfield - George & Mary (Abode Barcombe)
Mercy bap 12th Apr 1807 Barcombe - George & Mary
George born 1809 buried 1810 Barcombe - Possible child of George & Mary?
There are no matches outside this period that are relevant that I can see, so either George & Mary married about 1799 or they moved into the area then.
What do you think?
Sean
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Had a glass of wine and looked further back
Charlotte 1794 Newick - George & Mary
George 1790 Newick buried 1791 Maresfield - George & Mary
Hester 1788 Newick - George & Mary
Mary 1785 Newick - George & Mary
Sarah 1784 Newick - George & Mary
John 1783 Newick - George & Mary
Elizabeth 1781 Newick - George & Mary
Jenny 1778 Newick - George & Mary
So this would tie in with the George & Mary marrying in 1777, remembering also that baptismal dates do not necessarily mean birth dates.
PS They really had no luck with children named George!
PSS Maybe George married twice? There is a largish gap between 1794 and 1800
PSSS There is in fact a burial of a Mary Thorpe in Maresfield 1794!!!!
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Thanks, Sean.
I like your modus operandi!! Have a glass of wine, and take another look!! :D
I wondered if George could have remarried to Martha after Mary but the problem with that is that the baptisms of Jonathan & mercy in 1803 and 1807 both name Mary as mother. Of course, he could have married another Mary who was young enough to have children then - making Martha probably not relevant to all this. There do seem to be an awful lot of Thorpes in that general area and it may well be that I have the wrong George.
I think I need access to ALL Thorpe BMDs in the area but that isn't going to happen until they're online.
Or, does anyone know if the Sussex FHS do a name search - Bucks FHS do them: a few pounds for a 100 year search of a particular surname in B, M or D. I'd be more than happy to fork out for that.
Otherwise, I shall just have to be patient (not my default setting!!)
Jill
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To access the Sussex Family History Group files is only £15 for the year so that might be the way to go.
There are a few members who have Thorpe interests who you might want to contact.
http://www.sfhg.org.uk/ext/EY67.HTM
Sean
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Thought it best to continue on this thread as its a similar problem i.e. another DNA link to the same people.
I've more or less given up on trying to find the Thorpe DNA link to my brickwall theory. I even tried Sean's tip (have a glass of wine and another go) but without any luck.
I've just been searching on Ancestry for anyone else with a DNA match via SYMONDS in Sussex. This is my original brickwall, involving my 6xgt grandparents Joseph and Sarah who to all intents and purposes lived in Hambleden, Bucks - first child in 1740. I've never been able to find their marriage or baptisms but had found a couple who married in Ardingly, Sussex in 1731, had 4 children up to 1737 and then - apparently - disappeared from view. Did they move to Bucks? or had I just fitted them around my theory?
Anyway, I've now found another DNA match (admittedly only 5th-8th cousin) who not only has Symonds in her tree but they are from Ardingly! Unfortunately, she doesn't appear to have much more info so I've held off contacting her as yet.
That's two mysterious DNA matches to this area - one very high (33cMs) which took me from New Zealand to East Sussex but then got stuck (hence this thread) and the second which is a much smaller match but is a link to the name as well as the town.
Surely I must be on the right path with my theory - and yet I still feel more proof is needed.
So, do any of you lovely people have access to East Sussex records or are a member of the FHS? Are there any removal orders, settlement orders, wills etc in the name of Symonds (or its many various spellings) which might point me in the right direction? Joseph and Sarah would have moved to Bucks around 1737-40. Joseph's father was Hugh or Hugo and died in 1739 in Ardingly. Are Sussex wills online?
Finally, does anyone familiar with that area of Sussex know of any connection to the Hambleden area of Bucks? I'm assuming they were both agricultural areas - could they have had the same landowner? :-\
Sorry, for the mini novel! Any help would be great.
Jill
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Hi Jill,
Right I cannot find any children born to a Joseph & Sarah in Ardingly, however I can find some in Cuckfield, John 1733 and Sarah 1735. Neither can I find a baptism of a Joseph to a Hugh or Hugo. Was this based upon the tree you found on Ancestry?
Regards
Sean
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You may find this helpful; http://www.chatfield-genealogy.website/genealogy-chatfield-uk-database.html
and
http://www.chatfield-genealogy.website/genealog.html
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Aha, they also had a Joseph Simmons baptised 1737/1738 which fits in with some of the info I can see in your post. Right and then nothing after that including any burials in Cuckfield.
Now someone used to have lots of Cuckfield stuff but I cannot rightly remember who it was, hopefully they will read this and see if there is anything else to see.
Regards
Sean
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Now I have the trail!
Joseph and Sarah settled in Cuckfield in Oct 25 1735 from Worth.
I cannot see any removals from Cuckfield for them I am afraid. You might have to ask in the Bucks forum if you haven't already to see if they have any settlement records.
Sean
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Aha, they also had a Joseph Simmons baptised 1737/1738 which fits in with some of the info I can see in your post. Right and then nothing after that including any burials in Cuckfield.
Now someone used to have lots of Cuckfield stuff but I cannot rightly remember who it was, hopefully they will read this and see if there is anything else to see.
Regards
Sean
Thanks, Sean. Obviously well lubricated then? ;)
Yes, married in 1731 in Ardingly (though some sources say Worth), 4 children baptised in Cuckfield between 1733 and 1737. Two of the children's names are 'repeated' by the couple in Bucks but I think I've found a burial for one of them - Mary born and died in 1736 in Ardingly. I have a vague recollection of finding (years ago) a removal or settlement order for the family and that it wasn't in Sussex - possibly Surrey (would they have travelled via Surrey to get from Sussex to Bucks?) but I lost faith in my theory at that time and can't for the life of me find any note of it. Now, with the DNA matches, I've resurrected my theory but can't get any further.
I'm assuming they lived somewhere it was just as easy to do their BMDs in either Cuckfield or Ardingly, just to confuse a future family historian.
Some Ancestry trees have some info about who Joseph's siblings married (all seem to be in Sussex, if correct) but nothing on Joseph other than his baptism in 1737. parents were Hugh (or Hugo) Symonds and Susannah (possibly nee Tracy) - some of the same trees have them marrying in 1688 in Ardingly.
What I wouldn't do for a mid 18th century Hambleden census which gives both Joseph and Sarah's birthplaces!!
I'm going to message the 'new' DNA match just in case she has any more info on her Ann Symonds who she has marrying a James Standen in Ardingly in 1709. Ann was the eldest child of Hugh and Susannah - Joseph was the youngest (20 years apart).
youngtug, thanks for the links but, as far as I can see, they're all to do with people called Chatfield.
Added: I think I've exhausted Bucks FHS etc for any sign of them but I'll try again.
jill
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Ah yes,,, I see you've gone off the Chatfields