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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: ConfusedMason on Monday 07 January 19 08:27 GMT (UK)
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Born: About 1891
Death: 4 June 1969
Wife: Ada Amelia Branson (married 1932)
He was in the Merchand Navy during WWI and at one stage he was captured.
https://i.imgur.com/HojFUEh.png (https://i.imgur.com/HojFUEh.png)
Above is an image of the death notice, saying he had two names.
None of the family can find any information on when the name change occured or if there ever was one. Ada also apparently had another husband "George Bertram Evelyn Mason" before James, which adds to the intrigue.
Can anyone shed some light on this or do you think it will be a family mystery forever?
I can provide as much details as I can, just ask.
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Where do you see the marriage to George Bertram Mason?
I see this one: 515 1919 Branson Ada A to Rutherford Charles G Perth
Jamjar
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Rutherford Ada A Female Mason James G Male Perth 640 1932
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so, he was already MASON at that marriage
Who does he say his father is on the cert?
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Charles had done a runner, near bottom 4th column:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article32659414
She married James the same year.
Jamjar
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Which name was he using in the service?
Jamjar
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Which name was he using in the service?
Jamjar
I don't have much info yet about WW1, but my family did find the linked article about him for WW2
https://i.imgur.com/m2m8zkK.png (https://i.imgur.com/m2m8zkK.png)
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Where do you see the marriage to George Bertram Mason?
I see this one: 515 1919 Branson Ada A to Rutherford Charles G Perth
Jamjar
For the George Bertram Evelyn Mason link, I am only going by the words of one of Adas daughters, so no concrete evidence there.
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tree on Ancestry has 2 daughters to George and Ada with MASON in brackets, as if registered births as BRANSON.
Branson Irene M Female Boulder 48 1913
Branson Ina M Female Boulder 179 1914
So - never married?
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so, he was already MASON at that marriage
Who does he say his father is on the cert?
I have not sighted the cert myself (I am going to order myself a copy once I can figure out the exact marriage date for the cert request.)
Others have linked him to another William Wright, images below.
https://i.imgur.com/19uEGky.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/fBDhqrV.png
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tree on Ancestry has 2 daughters to George and Ada with MASON in brackets, as if registered births as BRANSON.
Branson Irene M Female Boulder 48 1913
Branson Ina M Female Boulder 179 1914
So - never married?
My most complete family tree I have access to says Irene (Mary) and Ina are the children of George Mason and Ada Branson. The rest of the "Mason" children that Ada had came from the "James Mason" marriage.
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Are you getting all this information from other folk’s online trees?
Jamjar
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I have not sighted the cert myself (I am going to order myself a copy once I can figure out the exact marriage date for the cert request.)
Do you not just apply using the reference number and year?
Jamjar
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Are you getting all this information from other folk’s online trees?
Jamjar
The only information I am pulling from other peoples trees is the "George Mason" link. I pulled that info as it might help with my current task of finding out about James Gregory Mason.
The rest of the information (William Wright / James Gregory Mason) comes from the death / cemetary notice.
I have not sighted the cert myself (I am going to order myself a copy once I can figure out the exact marriage date for the cert request.)
Do you not just apply using the reference number and year?
Jamjar
Not from what I can see here;
https://i.imgur.com/tWrJNgF.png
(I don't want to send an incomplete form in and get it rejected)
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Apologies for all the dodgy information I might have, I am quite young (18) and new to all of this research and requesting certificates.
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Western Australia's death certs are usually full of information. I see his is indexed in the name of William WRIGHT ... aged 78, parents as William and Emma, #83, of 1969. Swan District.
https://bdm.justice.wa.gov.au/_apps/pioneersindex/default.aspx
JM
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Marriage
https://bdm.justice.wa.gov.au/_apps/pioneersindex/default.aspx
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You do not need the date of marriage.
If you search for the marriage here
https://bdm.justice.wa.gov.au/_apps/pioneersindex/default.aspx
and when you locate it on the index press order to the right, it will open in a new window with the details required entered in the form. Print it and you need to fill out your details. It is known as an historical certificate. I have ordered many from WA and never had a problem.
Do your own research and only use online trees for info but CHECK it. People are slack and accept the so called little green leaf hints.
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Marriage
https://bdm.justice.wa.gov.au/_apps/pioneersindex/default.aspx
Mckha, that just links to the search page.
Jamjar
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Western Australia's death certs are usually full of information. I see his is indexed in the name of William WRIGHT ... aged 78, parents as William and Emma, #83, of 1969. Swan District.
https://bdm.justice.wa.gov.au/_apps/pioneersindex/default.aspx
JM
That's perfect as it lines up with the census data I had on him and his parents!
https://i.imgur.com/19uEGky.jpg
Marriage
https://bdm.justice.wa.gov.au/_apps/pioneersindex/default.aspx
That just links to the search page.
Jamjar
https://i.imgur.com/zsdRc4j.png
Here is a copy of the info I got from it. I will order a copy of it even though it seems the parents names are already found to be William and Emma (as per a few posts up).
Maybe noone will ever know why the change from William Wright to James Mason. Will I be able to get a copy of the name change records from anywhere if he legally changed the name?
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I think you mean the electoral rolls. There are no census available in Aus.
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Can you see the ORDER to the right of the database entry?
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I think you mean the electoral rolls. There are no census available in Aus.
I meant the Census data from London where James was born.
https://i.imgur.com/19uEGky.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/19uEGky.jpg)
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IF you use the live link that I posted there, and do your own search for that 1932 marriage, you will find it, and then on the right hand side IF you click the order option, you will be able to access a pdf form, which has already filled in enough information by the BDM online order service for you to order that record. It is fairly expensive though, so be aware you will need your plastic card.
These are historic certificates, so are easier to access. More recent ones .... well .... usually these require you to be a close relative and have a great depth of private knowledge before applications to gain access can be advanced.
JM
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IF you use the live link that I posted there, and do your own search for that 1932 marriage, you will find it, and then on the right hand side IF you click the order option, you will be able to access a pdf form, which has already filled in enough information by the BDM online order service for you to order that record. It is fairly expensive though, so be aware you will need your plastic card.
These are historic certificates, so are easier to access. More recent ones .... well .... usually these require you to be a close relative and have a great depth of private knowledge before applications to gain access can be advanced.
JM
Thanks, I'm going to order a copy just to keep for my records. It's a pity that I might never find out more info about the name change though.
I'm also going to find out more info about how they came across to Australia.
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I am lost for words ... ME ... I read that it is $35 for each of the historic certs ...
JM
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Alright I've completed the form to order the marriage certificate.
It will be nice to have a copy regardless of if it shows any more information than I know now.
I will keep trying to find out how they came to Australia in the first place, and try to pinpoint the year he went from "William Wright" to "James Gregory Mason".
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how they came to Australia
Who are ‘they’?
Jamjar
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JJ, I think our OP is a tad and a bit younger than me...
Apparently (as per several of family members who are much much younger than me) the word 'THEY' is currently undergoing an expansion of its meaning. It is a handy word now, as it is non-gender specific ... and also it is not as specific (so not as rude/ie direct) as 'You' so it is not just politically correct but it is also not discriminating or categorising or otherwise ....
Apparently .... in the younger sets, it is frequently found to denote just ONE person (ie an alternative to the 'sexist' words ... HE / SHE ...) mind you, this particular family member had not ever been taught to conjugate any verb ... and err I suspect ... umm... I think they may think I am being pedantic .... but after hearing the 'they' explanation from my rellie around a communal meal table over this season, I then said 'WHO IS THEY' ... and the rest of the company around the table - well at least the ones my age and older and much older all said (in unison) ... 'who are they' ... Yes, I am sure you will be smiling at that long winded explanation ...
JM
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Fully agree with you JM, the usage is changing.
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You could be correct, JM. :)
I was wondering if he thought the wife had come over, also - she was born WA - or, that William had come over with family members.
Jamjar
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You could be correct, JM. :)
I was wondering if he thought the wife had come over, also - she was born WA - or, that William had come over with family members.
Jamjar
Apologies, you are correct. When I said "they" I just meant William, because I am just unsure.
I have sent off to order the Marriage Certificate between William / James and Ada.
Do you think that will have additional info about his parents on it?
I will report back my findings when it arrives regardless.
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The following are the provisions for information on a W A marriage certificate.
Date
Couple's names
Couple's ages
Couple's birthplaces
Previous status
Couple's occupations
Couple's residences
Fathers' names
Fathers' occupations
Groom's mothers name
What you find of course will depend on the truthfulness of the couple who give the information.
In 1925, Ada Amelia appears twice on the Electoral Roll.
1.MASON, Ada Amelia, River Street Sth Perth.H D
She also appears there in 1917 and 1919. No others with her of the name.
2.RUTHERFORD, Ada Amelia, 19 Norfolk St, Fremantle. Married.
No others with her of the name.
I would think it possible she simply forgot to change her details.
As you know George, the father of Ina and Irene died in 4th Jan 1917.
He had made an application to join the AIF that year, but there seems no further information in regard to it.
There is other information about Ada, which I and others will type up for you if you wish, but nothing I have found casts light on the mystery of James Gregory ( Jim)Mason AKA William Wright, who may have gone from a sawyer in 1901 and later to the Merchant Marines at sea in 1941 and a pantryman at Cottesloe in 1958.
If you are interested in details of Ada, let us know.
Did she died very sadly in 1954?
Sue
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He was in the Merchand Navy during WWI and at one stage he was captured.
Do you know what name he used then?
Is he in the Red Cross prisoner of war lists?
https://grandeguerre.icrc.org
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It is fairly clear he enlisted as James MASON ( I do not see Gregory)
Here are some news mentions.
A letter is written from J MASON from POW camp MARLAG. Passed for repatriation 1944
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/44811536
Home after 5 years in camp. James MASON 1945
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/44998009
Picture of Sapper BRANSON and mention of J MASON 1941
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/78583704
Sue
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Ah!
In this lengthy article, James MASON tell the whole story and bits of his life too.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/51749733
After spending three days in Chester Hospital I was sent to London where I was greeted by my mother sisters and brothers whom had not seen for 28 years.
Sue
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The following are the provisions for information on a W A marriage certificate.
Date
Couple's names
Couple's ages
Couple's birthplaces
Previous status
Couple's occupations
Couple's residences
Fathers' names
Fathers' occupations
Groom's mothers name
What you find of course will depend on the truthfulness of the couple who give the information.
In 1925, Ada Amelia appears twice on the Electoral Roll.
1.MASON, Ada Amelia, River Street Sth Perth.H D
She also appears there in 1917 and 1919. No others with her of the name.
2.RUTHERFORD, Ada Amelia, 19 Norfolk St, Fremantle. Married.
No others with her of the name.
I would think it possible she simply forgot to change her details.
As you know George, the father of Ina and Irene died in 4th Jan 1917.
He had made an application to join the AIF that year, but there seems no further information in regard to it.
There is other information about Ada, which I and others will type up for you if you wish, but nothing I have found casts light on the mystery of James Gregory ( Jim)Mason AKA William Wright, who may have gone from a sawyer in 1901 and later to the Merchant Marines at sea in 1941 and a pantryman at Cottesloe in 1958.
If you are interested in details of Ada, let us know.
Did she died very sadly in 1954?
Sue
Hmm, so there IS a George Mason! Did you find any evidence of George and Adas marriage?
All of your other finds are AMAZING! I am reading all of these articles! Not seeing his family for 28 years lines up with him being the William Wright from the earlier London Census's.
I really hope that most of the information on the marriage certificate is filled out!
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Ah!
In this lengthy article, James MASON tell the whole story and bits of his life too.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/51749733
After spending three days in Chester Hospital I was sent to London where I was greeted by my mother sisters and brothers whom had not seen for 28 years.
Sue
Something worries me about this article, it says he is 52 in 1945 when I always assumed he was born in 1891. Very interesting... I will read the whole thing right now.
edit: Says he got a new granddaughter between 1940 and 1945 along with his daughter being married during that time. I'll try to match it up with what I know.
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Perhaps someone more skilled than me could find his record at the Battle of Jutland as mentioned in the article.
I guess you would need to search under both his "names"
Sue
ADDING
Here perhaps is the marriage of "his" daughter mentioned.
MASON Ina M Perth 478 F 1941 FOWLER Arthur G
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So that would be Royal Navy service in WWI.
JM
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Sue
ADDING
Here perhaps is the marriage of "his" daughter mentioned.
MASON Ina M Perth 478 F 1941 FOWLER Arthur G
That's possible.
Ina was a step child of James.
Beryl Lily Edwards (born Rutherford) was also a stepdaughter of James who was married between 1940 - 1945 but I am checking to see if they had a child.
EDWARDS BERYL LILY 6655/1976 CHARLES GEORGEADA AMELIA
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Hi,
Please do not mention the names of people born after 1920 unless you have evidence of their death.
If not.....
To take out the name of the younger daughter, use the modify button.
Sue
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Hi,
Please do not mention the names of people born after 1920 unless you have evidence of their death.
If not.....
To take out the name of the younger daughter, use the modify button.
Sue
Apologies, I went through and grabbed the death record from the NSW registry.
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At National Archives is ADM 188 /624/32963
William Thomas Robert WRIGHT
Born 19 August 1896 Shoreditch. bit young?
Occupation Wood Machinist. fits with possible occupation
5ft 7 brown hair, grey eyes
Date and period of engagement - 4 July 1917 this date is after the battle of Jutland which was 31 May, 1 june 1916
Transferred to R.A. F. 31 March 1918
see reply 50
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At National Archives is ADM 188 /624/32963
William Thomas Robert WRIGHT
Born 19 August 1896 Shoreditch. bit young?
Occupation Wood Machinist. fits with possible occupation
5ft 7 brown hair, grey eyes
Date and period of engagement - 4 July 1917 this date is after the battle of Jutland which was 31 May, 1 june 1916
Transferred to R.A. F. 31 March 1918
It is a possible but the Battle of Jutland service is clearly stated in the news article.
It is entirely possible he used yet another name for that enlistment I guess.
Sue
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FindMyPast has British Royal Navy & Royal Marines, Battle Of Jutland 1916 Servicemen
There are 21 William Wright’s. Just working through them
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https://i.imgur.com/Hlj3UDO.png
I have this article (sorry, can't direct link a source as I cannot find) abouts James Mason but doesn't provide much more info than we currently have.
(Not sure why it says Fireman though because the other article didn't include that info)
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FindMyPast has British Royal Navy & Royal Marines, Battle Of Jutland 1916 Servicemen
There are 21 William Wright’s. Just working through them
The closest to a dob of 1891 is William WRIGHT 1892 born Redford Nottinghamshire service no K10699 he's a wool washer
the two with London births are 1897 and 1899 respectively. Even younger than the other guy
There is no James MASON in the Battle of Jutland list
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FindMyPast has British Royal Navy & Royal Marines, Battle Of Jutland 1916 Servicemen
There are 21 William Wright’s. Just working through them
The closest to a dob of 1891 is William WRIGHT 1892 born Redford Nottinghamshire service no K10699 he's a wool washer
the two with London births are 1897 and 1899 respectively. Even younger than the other guy
Thankyou for your hard work with the searching. I feel we might be stuck until I recieve the Marriage Certificate with Ada from 1932.
Hopefully it has new information that helps.....
Edit: Maybe it would be worth it to order his death certificate as well?
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I think you are right.
I'm hoping his mother's name is Charlotte :)
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I think you are right.
I'm hoping his mother's name is Charlotte :)
Do you know what information they would have on a Western Australian death certificate? (hard to find examples of the time period online)
Do you think it would be worth it to order? Or the Marriage Cert might have everything that is on the death cert...
Thanks again
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I'm hoping his mother's name is Charlotte :)
But that guy had no sisters,(or brothers) so not looking so good :(
AND, he is in the 1939 register.
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The following are the provisions for information on a W A death certificate
Name
Date
Death place
Age
Occupation
Cause of death
Parents' names
Spouse names
Marriage details
Chns names
No of chn
Birthplace
I would wait until the marriage details are with you.
Quite possibly those providing information for the certification had no idea of the truthful facts.
Remember, nothing is required to be verified for certification. It is simply recorded as being to the best belief o the informant.
Sue
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I would wait until the marriage details are with you.
Sue
No worries, thanks Sue.
If the marriage cert comes back with not much information and I am desperate, I will order the death certificate just as a last ditch attempt.
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I will update everyone when the documents come in :)
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Hi,
I am pulling out a bit of a longshot here, but may be worth a follow up. :-\
On 30th May 1917 at Battersea Parish Church, London there was a marriage between William WRIGHT, bachelor aged 26 and Ellen CORDINGLEY spinster aged 24.
Both were living at St Mary Battersea
.
William’s father was William WRIGHT, retired and Ellen’s Samuel William CORDINGLY a munitions worker.
William’s employment was Private in A.S.C.M. Ellen no occ.
The marriage was according to the rites of the Established Church, by licence.
Both signed and witnesses were Samuel William and Margaret Jones (poss the curate’s wife as that his the curate’s surname too).
I would need a lot of guidance here, but I think A.S.C.M. is 'anti-ship cruise missile' and I think they were used in the Battle of Jutland.
Anyhow, a good reason to change your name may be to escape a marriage.
I will look further for the couple.
Sue
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Hi,
I am pulling out a bit of a longshot here, but may be worth a follow up. :-\
On 30th May 1917 at Battersea Parish Church, London there was a marriage between William WRIGHT, bachelor aged 26 and Ellen CORDINGLEY spinster aged 24.
Both were living at St Mary Battersea
.
William’s father was William WRIGHT, retired and Ellen’s Samuel William CORDINGLY a munitions worker.
William’s employment was Private in A.S.C.M. Ellen no occ.
The marriage was according to the rites of the Established Church, by licence.
Both signed and witnesses were Samuel William and Margaret Jones (poss the curate’s wife as that his the curate’s surname too).
I would need a lot of guidance here, but I think A.S.C.M. is 'anti-ship cruise missile' and I think they were used in the Battle of Jutland.
Anyhow, a good reason to change your name may be to escape a marriage.
I will look further for the couple.
Sue
This is extremely interesting and I am going to do my best to follow this up and try find more.... thankyou so much for the potential leads.
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Would be awfully cheeky of him to visit his family in England, after the war, with everyone knowing he was a bigamist, if he had run off from a first wife.
I wonder how he explained the name change to the folks. :)
Jamjar
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William’s employment was Private in A.S.C.M. Ellen no occ.
I think Private is an Army rank not Navy.
Also it's A.S.C.M.Y. (or maybe a T)
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Just to let everyone know, I have ordered his death certificate also (I ordered his Marriage certificate yesterday). Even if I gain no new information for it, it will be nice to have for my records.
I will let everyone know what it says when I receive it.
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William’s employment was Private in A.S.C.M. Ellen no occ.
I think Private is an Army rank not Navy.
Also it's A.S.C.M.Y. (or maybe a T)
Wondering if Y was for yeomen in which case I think A.S.C stands for Armoured Supply Column
the M might be Mounted?
Where is a WW1 expert when you want one?
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I agree it was a shaky line of research, but just worth posting.
Maybe best abandoned. ::)
I wonder if you ConfusedMason, can tell us exactly where the relationship to William springs from.
Obviously one of his children was your grandfather, according to your other post on the London Middlesex board.
So, was this one of Ada's children?
Understand if you prefer not to say :-X
Possibly still living too I guess. :-X
Sue
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I agree it was a shaky line of research, but just worth posting.
Maybe best abandoned. ::)
I wonder if you ConfusedMason, can tell us exactly where the relationship to William springs from.
Obviously one of his children was your grandfather, according to your other post on the London Middlesex board.
So, was this one of Ada's children?
Understand if you prefer not to say :-X
Possibly still living too I guess. :-X
Sue
I have PM'd you the name connection I have to James and Ada. They are my grandfathers parents.
I have done DNA comparisons with Adas children from Charles Rutherford and we get a match so I am 100% related to Ada Branson.
On an interesting note about DNA, I am also DNA related to someone who has a grandfather named "Douglas Arthur Wright ). The funny thing about that is on the 1911 census, there is an "Arthur Douglas Wright" (names reversed). This person who I DNA match with is unable to find me information on his end who his Arthurs parents were so I cannot cross reference it with what I have, but I have a sneaking suspicion that since we are blood related, Arthur and William will be the brothers found on the census.
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I was emailing one of Adas grandchildren that I never knew about and they dropped this when I asked them about James Mason being William Wright:
"Story has it that their father was a deserter from the English navy and took on the name of Ada's former husband, Mason. How much truth there is in it I'm not sure. My Mum who is almost 90 yrs old, tells the same story"
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Interesting. I was going to suggest he may have been in the army - based on Sue’s post - and changed his name to join the navy.
I am quite young (18)
My Mum who is almost 90 yrs old
You are 18 and your mother is 90? ???
Jamjar
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Interesting. I was going to suggest he may have been in the army - based on Sue’s post - and changed his name to join the navy.
I am quite young (18)
My Mum who is almost 90 yrs old
You are 18 and your mother is 90? ???
Jamjar
Oh, sorry, the previous quote was from one of Adas grandchildren, not from me. It's one long quote.
Apologies for any confusion.
"Story has it that their father was a deserter from the English navy and took on the name of Ada's former husband, Mason. How much truth there is in it I'm not sure. My Mum who is almost 90 yrs old, tells the same story" - One of Adas Grandchildren
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This website is working towards a comprehensive catalogue of crews on all British ships involved in the Battle of Jutland.
It is worth your time browsing though not very easy to use. ;)
https://www.jutlandcrewlists.org/
A tree on Ancestry about the family of your interest has some certificates.
One of these certificates is the marriage of RUTHERFORD and BRANSON and you will be glad to know, she is described as spinster. So that will confirm no actual marriage to George MASON
Please advise if you cannot access.
Sue
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That's a great site that Sue posted ...
One of the pages has the following info,
https://www.jutlandcrewlists.org/register-of-killed-and-wounded
The Register of Killed and Wounded can be downloaded from The National Archives, free of charge, under reference ADM 104-146 and ADM 104-147.
This transcription, focusing only on the ships at the Battle of Jutland was started on 7th January 2019 and will take a while to reach its completion.
So hopefully the following pdf link will help too ... http://www.fhindexes.co.uk/samples/jutland.pdf ... around page 10 of 19 :
ADM 104 - Registers of Killed and Wounded - The original reference for this database; see above. ADM 104/146 covers May 1915 to May 1916 and ADM 104/147 is May 1916 to 1917.
fingers crossed
JM
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image removed.
This is a list of all the William Wrights at the Battle of Jutland, thanks for the link.
The 1891 birth one matches the year at least
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See my reply #44.
On that listing you can pick and look at the Naval Record. There are 21 candidates.
But NONE of them is that K7942 one!
I’ve deleted a clip of the men with 1891 +/- 5 years DOBs
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May I urge caution re attaching snips of images from third parties.
JM
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EDIT
Ignore this post.
Not Relevant ::)
Regarding the list you have posted ConfuedMason. Reply #66
WRIGHT William Henry, 03/12/1891 . K7942. Ship King George V
Had you thought before that William had a second given name? Henry.
I had not seen it before on the census findings, but I now do think it is the case.
Is this his birth?
Mistranscribed mother' name. Should be FARR
WRIGHT, William HENRY Mothers maiden name CARR
GRO Ref 1891 December Quarter in HACKNEY
Volume 01B Page 519
There were three other William Henry WRIGHTS born Dec quarter in Britain in 1891
Sue
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That Farr Family, I have been looking at. They were in and out of the Workhouse. William has a dob of either 28 or more often 29th December 1890. Given many times, I don’t think there would be any reason for it to change
And it’s this one
Mother's Maiden Surname: Order:
WRIGHT, WILLIAM FARR Order
GRO Reference: 1891 M Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 611
The brother Edward Thomas Did definitely go into the Navy
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Ah well!
Another theory gone ::)
Sue
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I did wonder whether it was Edward who was at the battle of Jutland and William just took the story over, but no, Edward was too young, born 12 January 1902.
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Some certificates have come back that I requested from the GRO:
I want to put an image but I'm not sure if birth certificates are copyright? I'll transcribe
I am fairly (high % chance) sure that this is the birth certificate for James Gregory Mason.
Superintendent District: Hackney
Rigistrars Sub District: South Hackney
No. 147
When and Where Born: Twenty Eight December 1890 49 Chapman Road
Name, if any: William
Sex: Boy
Name and Surname of Father: William Wright
Name and Maiden Surname of Mother: Emma Wright, formerly Farr
Rank or Profession of Father: Firewood Chopper
When Registered: Thirtieth January 1891
Signatures are a mark from Emma Wrights mother who apparently also lived at 49 Chapman Road
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Transcribing is best choice to be safe.
Small snips are ok for purposes of deciphering etc, but not whole items.
Sue
What was Mrs FARR's name in the signature?
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Transcribing is best choice to be safe.
Small snips are ok for purposes of deciphering etc, but not whole items.
Sue
What was Mrs FARR's name in the signature?
Unfortunately doesn't have one. Here is the snip of that box.
(https://i.imgur.com/q8Whjmk.png)
Maybe she could not write?
I bought the certificates I found of Williams siblings and Mrs Farrs signature box says the same of each.
I have however also bought the certificate of marriage between Emma Farr and William Wright which is coming soon so hopefully there was a little more elaboration there :)
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You still need the link though, which we are all hoping is in the W.A.marriage cert you have on order.
Regarding your DNA match who has ancestor Douglas Arthur WRIGHT who you said was having difficulty, this might help.
The Arthur Douglas of “your” Wright/Farr Family does not appear to be registered >:( BUT he goes into the workhouse in 1914 with his father as Douglas Arthur and has a date of birth given of 1 May 1908. He is discharged to ONGAR 25 July 1915
http://www.formerchildrenshomes.org.uk/hackney_cottage_homes.html
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Well, I am seeing "The mark of Emma WRIGHT, mother"
Meaning mother of the infant.
Sue
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Well, I am seeing "The mark of Emma WRIGHT, mother"
Meaning mother of the infant.
Sue
Oh, you are correct. I interpreted it incorrectly. Now that I think more about it, it obviously can't be her mother because her mother wouldn't have been named Emma Wright.
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have however also bought the certificate of marriage between Emma Farr and William Wright which is coming soon so hopefully there was a little more elaboration there
I’m sorry to tell you but that cert is online. They both signed with their mark.
His father is James WRIGHT woodcutter
And hers William George FARR deceased
Witnesses Annie KING and Elizabeth PRYOR
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have however also bought the certificate of marriage between Emma Farr and William Wright which is coming soon so hopefully there was a little more elaboration there
I’m sorry to tell you but that cert is online. They both signed with their mark.
Where did you see that cert? I had to request it as I couldn't seem to find it.
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It’s on Ancestry
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Some certificates have come back that I requested from the GRO:
I want to put an image but I'm not sure if birth certificates are copyright? I'll transcribe
I am fairly (high % chance) sure that this is the birth certificate for James Gregory Mason.
Superintendent District: Hackney
Rigistrars Sub District: South Hackney
No. 147
When and Where Born: Twenty Eight December 1890 49 Chapman Road
Name, if any: William
Sex: Boy
Name and Surname of Father: William Wright
Name and Maiden Surname of Mother: Emma Wright, formerly Farr
Rank or Profession of Father: Firewood Chopper
When Registered: Thirtieth January 1891
Signatures are a mark from Emma Wrights mother who apparently also lived at 49 Chapman Road
Signatutes are NOT a mark from Emma Wright"s mother, beccause the mark is Emma Wrigjt whose relationship to the baby whose birth is bekng registered is ... Mother....
JM on e reader, still having issues with virtual keyboard.so sorry for long quote ...
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Apologies to Sue for duplkcating her post, re mother as a description on that b.c.
JM
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I will transcribe everything I was delivered today so we have it for future reference IF James Mason turns out to be this William Wright:
William Wright
No. 147
When and Where Born: Twenty Eight December 1890 49 Chapman Road
Name, if any: William
Sex: Boy
Name and Surname of Father: William Wright
Name and Maiden Surname of Mother: Emma Wright, formerly Farr
Rank or Profession of Father: Firewood Chopper
When Registered: Thirtieth January 1891
Emma Lydia Wright
No. 314
When and Where Born: Twentieth August 1899, 70 Chapman Road Hackney West
Name, if any: Emma Lydia
Sex: Girl
Name and Surname of Father: William Wright
Name and Maiden Surname of Mother: Emma Wright, formerly Farr
Rank or Profession of Father: Firewood Chopper
When Registered: Twenty Eighth September 1899
Annie Wright
No. 62
When and Where Born: Fifth June 1897, 70 Chapman Road
Name, if any: Annie
Sex: Girl
Name and Surname of Father: William Wright
Name and Maiden Surname of Mother: Emma Wright, formerly Farr
Rank or Profession of Father: Firewood Chopper
When Registered: Fourteenth July 1897
----
I am trying to find some descendants of the two sisters above to see if I am a DNA match on Ancestry
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I am trying to find some descendants of the two sisters above to see if I am a DNA match on Ancestry
Emily Lydia married Frederick John RIDGWELL 9 mar 1919
At least one daughter born 1923
Her marriage, june qtr 1943
Meader James W Ridgewell Hackney 1b 635
Ridgewell Edna L Meader Hackney 1b 635
I can only see one son from this marriage born 1947, so I won’t name him.
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I THINK Edward Thomas (b 12 Jan 1902) is the 1931 marriage (image online) to Beatrice Lilian RAVELL (35 a widow) Haringey.
It’s a bit confusing as there are several men with same name in same area and two marry Beatrice’s!
Hah! Beatrice Lilian is née RIDGWELL the sister of Frederick John Who married Emma Lydia
Might be one son b 1935, Surrey, which I don’t like as marriage and 1939 Beatrice is in Hackney.
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I THINK Edward Thomas (b 12 Jan 1902) is the 1931 marriage (image online) to Beatrice Lilian RAVELL (35 a widow) Haringey.
It’s a bit confusing as there are several men with same name in same area and two marry Beatrice’s!
Hah! Beatrice Lilian is née RIDGWELL the sister of Frederick John Who married Emma Lydia
Hmm, from what I can see her name changes to Emily? I found their marriage cert on Ancestry.
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Whose name changes to Emily?
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Whose name changes to Emily?
The marriage cert I can see in 1919 is between Frederick John Ridgwell and Emily Lydia Wright.
(https://i.imgur.com/vaRw3n1.png)
Was this not the one you were referencing?
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I Am An idiot, yes. You are right.
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On the marriage certificate of Frederick John RIDGWELL and Emily WRIGHT, the witness surname is MASON :o
Oh Dear. Probably a coincidence.!! But....
Sue
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Well Minnie Violet MAson is Frederick and Beatrice RIDGWAYs sister 😀
I think. Having trouble find the marriage, but their sister is definitely Minnie Violet Ridgway.
Oh good Sparrett has found it.
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Yes, I can see her marriage now to Albert Edward MASON in Merch 1919.
Sue
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I just got a message on Ancestry from the person I am a DNA match with who said his grandfather was named Douglas Arthur Wright. He said Douglas Arthur Wright married Lenora Joan Ellis in England and had a daughter Patricia.
(all of whom are now passed)
Migrated to Canada from England after World War II
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I just got a message on Ancestry from the person I am a DNA match with who said his grandfather was named Douglas Arthur Wright. He said Douglas Arthur Wright married Leonora Joan Ellis in England and had a daughter Patricia.
(all of whom are now passed)
Migrated to Canada from England after World War II
Has he given you all the details of Douglas from the marriage certificate?
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I just got a message on Ancestry from the person I am a DNA match with who said his grandfather was named Douglas Arthur Wright. He said Douglas Arthur Wright married Leonora Joan Ellis in England and had a daughter Patricia.
(all of whom are now passed)
Migrated to Canada from England after World War II
Has he given you all the details of Douglas from the marriage certificate?
No, he didn't have a copy of the certificate but did have this information:
"He and Lenora were married in Worthing Sx. England Dec. 17 th 1936 and before coming to Canada they lived in Worthing and Fontwell."
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I see them in the 1939. Day and month of birth are same as “your” Arthur Douglas, But year is 4 years out. What do you think Sparrett?
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Lenora J. / Wright / Worthing / 2 b 929 (Married Douglas A R Wright)
If I request this marriage cert it should hopefully have the details I need to solifidy the connection.
(My date of birth prediction of Douglas / Arthur only came from the 1911 census, which may have had his date incorrect?)
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Comment at this point.
Leonora Joan at the end of the first decade of the century was from a fairly affluent family.
Douglas Athur's occupation would be interesting.
Sue
EDIT
I have now seen the occ on the register.
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Lenora J. / Wright / Worthing / 2 b 929 (Married Douglas A R Wright)
If I request this marriage cert it should hopefully have the details I need to solifidy the connection.
(My date of birth prediction of Douglas / Arthur only came from the 1911 census, which may have had his date incorrect?)
My date of birth for Douglas/Arthur comes from the workhouse admission. All the other dates on those for other members have been correct.
https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/60391/31537_214914-00614/11097995?backurl=https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/152290540/person/282065474349/facts/citation/862095066922/edit/record
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I'm going to order the marriage certificate between Wright and Ellis in 1936.
It's coming from London to Australia so might take a while :'(
Strange they don't let you get PDF copies of the marriage cert but they let you get the Birth and Death ones in PDF
Sue, was the occupation you found something related to the military?
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There are rules about information from 1939.
I will PM it to you.
Sue
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There are rules about information from 1939.
I will PM it to you.
Sue
Thanks Sue. That's perfect.
I guess all we can do now is wait for the death certificate and/or this new marriage cert.
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Got this as a reply to the Arthur Douglas Wright lead on ancestry that I am DNA related to:
"I have found a copy of the Marriage cert. between Doug & Lenora, the name of Dougs father is listed as Douglas Fredrick Wright...his profession is listed as Soldier, the date is 1930"
"Also marriage certificate states Doug's name as
Douglas Arthur Reginald Wright, age 32"
"we just found his War Service book... it lists his DOB, May 1 1904"
I mentioned that the ages and dates lined up, mentioning I found the 1936 record on GRO, then they replied
"yes, you're right ! the dates have been altered on the cert. it looks like they were erased and writen in again"
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"yes, you're right ! the dates have been altered on the cert. it looks like they were erased and writen in again"
Does the contact you have been speaking to think
1. The actual piece of paper in hand shows an erasure made upon that piece of paper?
OR
2. The original, of which he has a acquired a copy, had an erasure in its original form?
The texture of the paper in that area should tell which.
If it is number 1., one of the possible reasons for moving a marriage date to an earlier time would be to cover an exnuptial birth , say in 1931.
Sue
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Sue has already said what I immediately thought, An ex-nuptial birth
But what I was also thinking was that it is easier to change a 6 to 0 than any other number so I think we would be looking at any date prior to that marriage. Presumably between 1930 and 1936
Possibilities
Not Ex-nuptial but in an unlikely locale - and in any case there is a closed entry on the 1939 which is presumably that child.
Births Sep 1943 (>99%)
Wright Patricia I Ellis Stoke 6b 355
2. There is no ELLIS birth between 1930 and 1936
There is no WRIGHT mmn ELLIS between 1930 and 1936
There IS a Faversham (which is a much better locale considering where they are in 1939) birth and possibly the E stands for ELLIS?
Births Mar 1933 (>99%)
Wright Patricia E Wright Faversham 2a 1569
struck out, child who goes to Canada first name is not Patricia, so none of the above applies
Could you ask your DNA relative her year of birth and full names?
The Douglases
I can see no Douglas Arthur Reginald WRIGHT birth in 1904, nor +/- 2 years
If he did exist and had father Douglas Frederick they ought to show up together in 1911. I don’t see them. They could be in Scotland or Ireland. I don’t see them but perhaps someone else might find them.
There are several Douglas Frederick WRIGHTS in the various indexes
It does seem to be rather a coincidence that there is no birth registration for either person. (ie Arthur Douglas mmn FARR and Douglas Arthur Reginald)
Points in favour of DAR being the same person as Arthur Douglas MMN FARR b 1 May 1908
Birth Day and Month are the same but year is out.
if Father’s name is manufactured Frederick is a name he might think of as it was the name of the brother immediately senior to him. (who WAS born in 1904)
You have a DNA match
Other points
4. I think I have found Frederick’s marriage (of the WRIGHT/FARR family) and if it is him, he is attempting to elevate himself too.
He adds Bernard to his names and marries 17 Aug 1929 at St Matthew, Upper Clapton Hackney, England to Dorothy Ethel RUFFELL in that he says his father is William WRIGHT a builder. Which is a bit of a stretch I agree., but this Frederick’s birth (according to 1939 and his death) is the same as the one in the WRIGHT/FARR family ie 1 MAR 1904. (Occupation of parents seems to have been much more important to people than it is now. Especially if they were 'marrying up'. As late as 1934 my grandfather said his father was a stationer, It turned out he was a gas lamp lighter, but when he was 16 he did work in a stationers for a while! So Woodchopper to Builder is probably not such a stretch especially if he did some labouring, which is likely)
5. The last Workhouse mention I can see of Arthur Douglas b 1908 is of him being discharged to ONGAR (the children’s homes) 25 Dec 1915 when he would have been 7. He might have stayed there until leaving age. Say 14 so 1922. Would he have lost all contact with his family? It’s hard to know.
6. I see no NO Arthur Douglas (nor Douglas Arthur) WRIGHT that matches after that 1915 date.
GOLLY I hope that SA marriage certificate you have ordered is not a disappointment! (and that it comes soon!)
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The immigration to Canada shows Leonora and Douglas WRIGHT and a 12 year old daughter whose name in not Patricia.
1951
Their last address had been Reigate Rd West Worthing.
Douglas is a Carpenter aged 45
Sue
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Oh, I was going by OP's earlier posting, didn't check. :)
Added 12 in 1951, thats a 1939 birth, AFTER the 1936 marriage.
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4. I think I have found Frederick’s marriage (of the WRIGHT/FARR family) and if it is him, he is attempting to elevate himself too.
Sorry I might have missed a post. Is this Frederick a child of Emma Farr / William Wright?
I was unaware that this person existed as I only had the records of Emma / Annie / William / Arthur.
What info is from Frederick that I can see?
My grandfather (James Masons son) had a middle name of Frederick, so it might have come from his uncle?
GOLLY I hope that SA marriage certificate you have ordered is not a disappointment! (and that it comes soon!)
I hope it clears a lot of things up too. For some reason you can't request Western Australian certificates online or over the phone, I had to write them a letter. They deducted my credit card on Thursday which means they got the letter. Hopefully will have it by early this week?
I also bought the death certificate of James Mason too but that will come a couple of days after.
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Frederick WRIGHT
dob 1 mar 1904
baptism 23 March 1904
26 April 1904 was admitted to Hackney Workhouse with
Wright William Woodchopper C of E b 1864
“ Emma Machinist 1870
“ Fredk Nil 1. 3. 04
“ Edward Nil 12. 1. 02
“ William Nil 28. 12. 90
He goes in and out with them all over the years
in 1911 he’s at Sidney Road Children’s home (as are Annie and Edward)
in 1911 Emma says she has 6 living children
I make it that these are
William 28 Dec 90
Annie 2 June 1897
Emma (later Emily) Lydia 28 July 1899
Edward Thomas 12 Jan 1902
Frederick (later Frederick Bernard) b 1 Mar 1904
Arthur Douglas b 1 May 1908
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You guys are like wizards with this sort of stuff. I will do some more reading of all of the posts here tonight and make a "tentative" family tree mapping out everything we have stated thus far.
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on Ancestry you seem to get better hits regarding the workhouse if you go to the workhouse records themselves
"London, England, Workhouse Admission and Discharge Records, 1764-1930"
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Hi,
A note for your files CM.
I had a quick look around for the possible parents of William WRIGHT the father of William WRIGHT (AKA MASON)
He stated his father was James WRIGHT, a sawyer on his marriage certificate to FARR and, yes, there was a person fitting that description through censuses from 1851 to at least 1871.
He had wife Jane (nee HIGGINS ) ,whom he had married in 1849, and a number of children born in the inner London area, one of whom was William WRIGHT in 1865.
This DOB sits well with the Work House entry birth date given for William WRIGHT(senior) husband of FARR which was 1864.
Sue
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Sue that information is perfect and what I am also looking for.
Are you able to PM or post here some of the other children of James Wright and Jane Higgins?
I am looking through Ancestry and finding some good matches for this info and want to have more to concrete it.
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Marriage details
At St Philips Church Bethnal Green.28th May 1849. James Wright. Aged 22. Bachelor. Sawyer. 7 Mount Street. Father Thomas Wright, a sawyer. Did not sign
Jane Higgins. Spinster. Aged 24. Nil occ.3 Nelson’s Lane. Father James Higgins, a mason. Did not sign.
Witnesses. James Higgins. Did not sign. Eliza Gooch. Did not sign
From census 1871
Living at Bethnal Green
WRIGHT.
James -49 years. Fire wood cutter
Jane. 43 years.
James 24 years
Joseph 20 years
Emma. 17 years
Thomas. 15 years
Edward. 12 years
Mary Anne 9 years
William. 4 years
George 5 months.
Internet problems here today, so will leave at that for now.
Others may add more ;D
Sue
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1881
James 55 Labourer
Jane 43
James son unmarr 33 labourer
Mary A dau unmarr 18
William son unmarr 16, N/O (no occupation?)
Charles son 14
George son 10
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1861
James 33 Firewood Cutter b Shoreditch
Jane 32, firewood cutter b Shoreditch
James son, 12, firewood cutter b Shoreditch
Joseph son 10 firewood cutter b Bethnal Green
Thomas 5 Scholar b Shoreditch
Edward 10 (months?) b Bethnal Green
Emma 7 years b Shoreditch
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1851
James HIGGINS widower 50 labourer b Bethnal Green
William WRIGHT son in law 25 Sawyr jny
Jane WRIGHT daughter 24
Jane WRIGHT dau 4
James WRIGHT son 1
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1841 all born in county
James HIGGINS 40 silk weaver
Elizth HIGGINS 35 Silk worker
Jane 14
Sarah 11
Mary 9
Ann 3
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1841 all born in county
James HIGGINS 40 silk weaver
Elizth HIGGINS 35 Silk worker
Jane 14
Sarah 11
Mary 9
Ann 3
Ann might be this birth
HIGGINS, ANN COLEMAN Order
GRO Reference: 1838 J Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 02 Page 50
in which case
the marriage
is James HIGGINS to Elizabeth COLEMAN 15 MAY 1826
Both signed with mark
Witnesses Thomas COLEMAN (mark)
and Clifford ELISHA (I think) signed
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CM,
You mentioned that your Canadian DNA match had located the world war 2 service book of Arthur Douglas WRIGHT which gave his Date of Birth.
Did the record by any chance offer any further information about him?
Place of birth, previous occupations?
He moved from a waiter in a snack-bar in the late thirties to a carpenter on the shipping record of 1951.
Sue
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He moved from a waiter in a snack-bar
Master Caterer. just to be pedantic.
Does seem a very abrupt change of profession.
might he have been catering corps in the army?
My battery running out. over to you Sue :)
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At St Philips Church Bethnal Green.28th May 1849. James Wright. Aged 22. Bachelor. Sawyer. 7 Mount Street. Father Thomas Wright, a sawyer. Did not sign
Jane Higgins. Spinster. Aged 24. Nil occ.3 Nelson’s Lane. Father James Higgins, a mason. Did not sign.
I see WEAVER not MASON
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From census 1871
Living at Bethnal Green
WRIGHT.
James -49 years. Fire wood cutter
Jane. 43 years.
James 24 years still unmarried 1901
Joseph 20 years can't see him after this 1871
Emma. 17 years cant see after this 1871
Thomas. 15 years cant see after this 1871
Edward. 12 years married Harriet GOTHARD 1879 11 children that I can see
Mary Anne 9 years cant see after 1881 census
William. 4 years Married Emma FARR as already outlined
Charles b 1867 married Lucy PROWSE 1901 4 surviving children in 1911
George 5 months. married Annie KING 1892 6 surviving children 1911
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Marriage Certificate arrived!!!
Date of Marriage: 4 May 1932
Place of Marriage: 182 Goderich St Perth
Groom:
Surname: Mason
Given Names: James Gregory
Occupation: Labourer
Place of Residence: Ardingly
Marital Status: Bachelor
Age: 41 years
Place of Birth: London, England
Father's Name: William George Mason
Father's Occupation: Steeplejack
Mother's Maiden Name: Emily Farr
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So it matches! Maybe he put his fathers name down as Mason just to avoid suspicion?
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Looks good.
Wish we could find his navy record.
What about arrival in Australia. Do you have that?
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Looks good.
Wish we could find his navy record.
What about arrival in Australia. Do you have that?
Noone in my family has any documents about his arrival in Australia, and I doubt we will ever find any. As he was (allegedly) a deserter from the English Navy, I doubt he would have used his real name on transport information (I think they executed people for deserting?).
I am trying to find documents about his name change and when it occured (if he even legally changed it)
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going back to that WW2 piece.
He says he met his mother and sisters.
So... there might be a story in their families about that.
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going back to that WW2 piece.
He says he met his mother and sisters.
So... there might be a story in their families about that.
Yeah, I'm piecing together the family tree of the London family on Ancestry to see if there are any descendants on there as members. I'm going back through this thread to find all the names of William and Emmas children so I can fill it out some more
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:)
And that M.C. ..please ..... who were the witnesses, and what denomination .... fingers crossed perhaps a clue in background ...
Yes, I am reading the updates, excellent efforts all ....
JM
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Marriage Certificate arrived!!!
Father's Name: William George Mason
Father's Occupation: Steeplejack
Mother's Maiden Name: Emily Farr
So it matches! Maybe he put his fathers name down as Mason just to avoid suspicion?
Yes, I'm sure the lie about father's name was to perpetuate the deception.
Can't help smiling about his father's occupation.
Mckha489 noted in reply #106, that Frederick Bernard WRIGHT stated the father was a builder and now we see the man as a steeplejack ::)
No wood-choppers or sawyers to be seen :-X
What are ADA's particulars on the certificate CM?
Sue
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Death Certificate:
Surname: Wright o/w Mason
Given Names: William o/w James Gregory
Date of Death: 4 June 1969
Occupation: Retired Labourer
Age: 78yrs
Place of Birth: London, England
Years lived in each State: Western Australia - 38yrs
Fathers Surname: Wright
Given Names: William
Occupation: Unknown
Mothers Maiden Surname: Farr
Given Names: Emma
Names and Ages of Children: Beryl 44yrs, Nellie 42yrs, James 40yrs, Kenneth 38yrs.
-----
Interesting part has been bolded. Possible lie though as his son James / Jim was born in 1927.
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Were Beryl and Nellie not his?
It’s interesting isn’t it, that the family clearly knew all about his alias. Which sort of defeats the purpose of him doing it to escape the authorities or a previous marriage or whatever other reason he had,
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Were Beryl and Nellie not his?
It’s interesting isn’t it, that the family clearly knew all about his alias. Which sort of defeats the purpose of him doing it to escape the authorities or a previous marriage or whatever other reason he had,
Oh yes, Nellie was his. Beryl however was not. I have Nellie as born in April 1929 so it's not possible for him to only have been in WA since 1931. Maybe whoever did the details for the death certificate were not sure, as Ada had been dead for some time by then.
Is there a way to check old name change records to see if he legally changed his name?
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And yet they knew of the name change.
I don’t think there will be anything official regarding the name change.
So, was Nellie younger or older than James. You have said James b 1927 and Nellie 1929, but that s not the order on the death cert.
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This is the info I have about the children that were his(Not researched myself but coming from a granddaughter of James Mason)
James Douglas Mason: 1927 - 1998
Nellie (Helen) Lillian Mason: 1929 - 2000
Kenneth Frederick Mason: 1931 - 2016
My goal is to find info about the original Mason daughters of Ada Branson too who William Wright stole the name from.
"Mary Irene Mason" and "Ina May Mason" (married Fowler).
I was speaking to my grandmother who met them and she mentioned that Mary had a mental disability so I don't think I would find much info there
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Is that a typo by Nellie? 1929 not 1919 😀
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:) :) :)
:D You do not need to go through any formal legal process to change your name.
;D He married under MASON, so perhaps he did not disclose is previous name to his W.A. family for many a year.
I too think it will unlikely you will find any formal application for a name change. He simply became known by James Gregory MASON. It was not until the mid 1990s that there was any real need for people to formalise name changes ... perhaps due to the Qintex affair and the ease with which the late Christopher Skase left Australia..... and the concept of needing to score 100 points by providing various ID documentation etc ...
JM
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I've been digging through the national library looking for info and found this.....
(22 Feb 1927)
(https://i.imgur.com/NMsO3XF.png)
Yikes
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:)
just giving the live links to that cutting and follow ups :D
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/58323712 Sunday Times 20 Feb 1927
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/94029008 Kalgoorlie Miner 21 Feb 1927
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/83048958 Daily News, Perth 21 Feb 1927
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/32015254 West Australian 28 Feb 1927
JM
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That top link has an address. 6 Farley Street. Does that match any documentation you have?
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That top link has an address. 6 Farley Street. Does that match any documentation you have?
Not exactly, from what I can see Ada had her first marriage at a Farley street but I can't seem to find an exact number