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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: diatoms on Monday 07 January 19 18:26 GMT (UK)
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Hi there.
I am completely new to ancestry, trying to find my family line etc.
Please could anyone help???
I am trying to find the parents of a James Richard Fox born in 1836/7 Hampshire (birth registered or born in Mottisfont). He had to 2 marriages 1st Emma Steere m.1857; 2nd Annie Elizabeth Lee m.?Ireland ?1870ish.
I have found James Richard on the Stanton family tree website and it reports his Father to be a Charles Richard (Farmer) - there is no further mention.
There is a Charles Richard Fox b.1802 (Lyndhurst - Farmer) who married an Elizabeth in 1835; there is also a Charles Richard b.1802 (Mottisfont) father John James) who married a Rebecca Martha Denby - this line is a line of my Grandmothers Fox family with cousins I know about and has been verified as there is a John Shirley Fox (R.B.A) who was a family cousin distant. The Charles Richard (Mottisfont) I can find NO reference to James Richard Fox - yet. I wonder if there was more than one marriage of if James Richard was illegitimate.
Please..... Can anyone help????? many thanks :)
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat
First rule of FH - don't believe all you read in others peoples trees - do your own research.
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat, wondering why this James K? R Fox aged 14 b Mottisfont is shown as Apprentice and not Son in Devizes, Wiltshire
Census ref HO107/1839/657/23
Keyboard86
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He married on 6.6.1857 at St Mary Paddington he was full age occ draper
Father is Charles Richard Fox occ farmer. John Walker and Mary Jolly were witnesses
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1861 for Andover
James R Fox 24 commercial traveller b Mottisfont
Emma 29 b Guildford Surrey
George C 2 b Ryde IoW
Eliza Willoughby 18 servant b Andover
RG9 Piece 715 Folio 53 Page 30
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Hi Carole
Very many thanks - how/where did you find the information??
Was Charles Richard married to an Elizabeth do you know? and also, do you know who Charles Richards parents were by any chance?
How do I find out more information?? I am not yet on ancestry or find my past.....
Many thanks
diatoms
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Still looking - will be back :)
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The 1841 census has 2 possibilities for James in Hampshire - both born 1836 but neither have a father on the entry - only a mother and siblings.
One does have a mother Elizabeth but I can't say if husband is/was Charles at the moment. There is a 4mth old Emma Fox on that entry and I am trying to find her in 1851
No death for a Charles Fox 1838-1841 in Hampshire
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No sooner posted when I found an 1851 entry for Charles R Fox aged 49 - agric labourer and dairyman
Wife is Elizabeth but no Emma or James.
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Don't think it's him. He is living with his father in 1841. 1851 has first child aged 9
Marriages June qtr 1841
FOX Charles Richard Stockbridge 7 277
SAVILLE Elizabeth Stockbridge 7 277
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james richard fox came from the Richard foxes from mottisfont (my great grandmother used to tell me when I was a wee thing, she also told my Father). I have traced back to Richard fox and mary wiltshire, then richard and mary/martha, then richard and sarah golden. I think richard 2 and richard 3 had various other marriages also, which means there should somewhere be another charles richard. I have a charles richard from sarah golden b.1802 but he married a rebecca denby , whether he had a 2nd marriage I dont know......
Carole, I could attach what I have got so far for you??????
How and where do you find your information???
Very many thanks :)
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Hi
Finished watching Manhunt :)
I find it odd that James does not appear on the 1841/51 census. If he was born 1836/37 he should at least be on the 1841 with parents unless his father or mother died before 1841. There is no 1851 entry with a birthplace of Mottisfont
Not many Charles Richard Fox's about and I am wondering whether James was the illegitimate son of one of Charles sisters and possibly used his uncles name when he married
This is the 1861 for Charles from Family Search
Houghton, Hampshire
Charles Richard Fox Head M 59 Lyndhurst, Hampshire retired farmer
Elizabeth Fox Wife F 61 Cuperham, Hampshire
RG9 Piece 688 folio 67 page 6
And in 1851
Charles R Fox 49
Elizabeth 51
Annette 9
Ellen 8
Mary B 5
HO107 Piece 1672 Folio 212 Page 17
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in the Hampshire, England, Allegations for Marriage Licences there is this entry
Charles Richard Fox
Allegation Date 16 Apr 1835
Place Broughton, St Mary, Hampshire
Residence Mottisfont, St Andrew
Spouse Harriet Jane Bell Age: 21
Spouse Residence: Broughton
www.freebmd.org.uk
Deaths June qtr 1839
FOX Harriett Jane Stockbridge 7 152 - aged 34
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Hi Carole, reply 2 has James b 1837 Mottisfont on FindMyPast, on Ancestry James K Trax b 1827 your thoughts!
Keyboard
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Hi Keyboard - I completely missed your reply but I think you are spot on. He is 14 not 24 and it's Fox not Trax
He's an apprentice draper which fits with his occ on the marriage cert
If you flip back a page there is this entry - children b Devizes
John James Fox 47 Linen draper b Mottisfont
Mary Ann 45 ? Middlesex
Charles 17
Richard 15
Alfred 12
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:) Carole, unless I have a different version of the 1851, the Head of household is a John James Fox aged 47 b Mottisfont?
Keyboard
:) You've answered my query!
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The family are in Hampshire in 1861 but I'm not going to confuse things by posting full details as there is no direct link to James at this stage. Here's the 1861 ref for possible future ref
RG9 Piece 715 Folio 91 Page 31
EDIT
In 1841 - John J Fox & family are in Wiltshire but no James with them
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If James was the son of Charles Richard Fox and Harriett Jane Bell - where is he in 1841?
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Ive found him in 1851....
he is an apprentice draper (aged 14) living with john james (mottisfont)and mary ann (middlesex) with charles, richard, and alfred. this was the information i have kept coming back to and have been unable to find anything on a james k fox. I found him on family search, there is a registration number????? HO107.
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:) Hi if you look back at reply 2 and subsequent replies he was located, but good to see you found him yourself!
Keyboard86
PS An online tree suggests John James Fox was the son of Richard Fox and Sarah Golden, he married 6th April 1829
Wellingborough a Mary Ann Jepson
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Yes thanks Keyboard86.
So John James and Mary Ann Jepson had Charles James, Richard Parsonage, Alfred, John Russell, Thomas Barker as their kids........ They also have James Richard (illegitimate) but where does Harriet come from in all this??
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Yes thanks Keyboard86.
So John James and Mary Ann Jepson had Charles James, Richard Parsonage, Alfred, John Russell, Thomas Barker as their kids........ They also have James Richard (illegitimate) but where does Harriet come from in all this??
Hi are you suggesting the James R Fox b 1837 is the illegitimate son of John James and Marry Ann, the 1851 suggests he is not a member/son of the family?
Keyboard86
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no I'm not, but he is living with them as an apprentice along with eliza kingstone, Alfred Trust, Alfred Westlake, joseph robbins, ann potter and mary drake in the 1851 census.
It is hard to work out which Charles Richard he came from and if he is the illegitimate child of him with Harriet who was Harriet.....
I have never done Family History/Trees before and I have been asked to do it by my parents. No other family member is interested only me so it is left for me to try and do it. I've spent months on it, some of it will be wrong coz of trying to fathom it out whilst on night shifts, some will okay. It took me ages to get the confidence to come on here and ask for some help - I went on another site and got slated and told to do it myself simply because I did not understand all the codes and letters they were giving me for another family tree and I could not work out all the different family stuff that I was apparently meant to understand. I was told to go to museums and churches to find the information out, working for the nhs does not give me that amount of time, so I am trying to do it on line and now with your help - thankfully - people who understand. So .... thank you.
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Hi
Go back to replies 12 and 17 re Harriett
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Thanks, got it. So who was Charles Richard Fox's father? Richard Fox b.1772 (m.Sarah Golden) had a Charles Richard b.1802 d. 1838 but apparently he married a Rebecca Denby in 1826. Richard Fox had another brother I think - Stephen....
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Whoa - one step at a time. We don’t yet know whether that 1835 marriage resulted in the birth of James do we?
The Charles Richard Fox who married Elizabeth Saville in 1841 was with a possible father John in 1841 but we don’t know whether he was a widower or a bachelor without sight of the 1841 marriage cert.
Charles ticks all the boxes for name and occupation as per James marriage cert but we have nothing that shows them together.
Where was James in 1841? He wasn’t with Charles
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Hi Carole
On pg 2 under the allegations for marriage, there is a Harriet Jane Bell 21 y/o, she then died in 1839.
If James' Mum died, could James have gone to IoW to be with family? I have found a James age 5 (b.1936) with a birth place of Hampshire, he is on IoW with a Mary Fox and Shaw There is a registration number: HO107????
I will keep looking....
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Charles Richard Fox and Harriett Jane Bell married 1835 - she died 1839
Unfortunately - Civil registration of BMD's only started 1.7.1837 and anything prior to that is in parish registers.
I am pretty certain James was their son but as he was born before 1837 we need to find a baptismal entry for him in parish records - but I don't think that's going to happen.
Re: the census entry you refer to - from my reply #7
The 1841 census has 2 possibilities for James in Hampshire - both born 1836 but neither have a father on the entry - only a mother and siblings.
If Harriett was his mother - she was dead by 1839. The 1841 does not show relationships so we have no way of knowing whether the "mothers" in these 2 entries were biological or foster mums
This is the entry you mention
Sarah Shaw 30
Mary Fox 30
Emma Fox 2
James Fox 5
Edith Shamer 14
HO107 Piece 405/11 Folio 26 Page 7
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The second James Fox I mentioned has a mother Elizabeth and they are in Southampton. He is more than likely the James Fox born 3.9.1835 and baptised Southampton 18.10.1835 - parents George & Elizabeth
He can therefore be eliminated as a possibility
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How do I find out more information?? I am not yet on ancestry or find my past.....
Another piece of advice - explore free sources and free trials first before signing up to fee-paying sites.
These websites have guidance on starting out.
Discovering English Ancestors
(Look this one up as the link I have doesn't work.)
Ancestor Search (This is for English and Welsh ancestors)
www.ancestor-search.info/home.htm
Federation of Family History Societies
www.ffhs.org.uk
There are others. These are just some I have bookmarked.
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Whoa - one step at a time. We don’t yet know whether that 1835 marriage resulted in the birth of James do we?
The Charles Richard Fox who married Elizabeth Saville in 1841 was with a possible father John in 1841 but we don’t know whether he was a widower or a bachelor without sight of the 1841 marriage cert.
Charles ticks all the boxes for name and occupation as per James marriage cert but we have nothing that shows them together.
This is all good advice. It's easy to go off on the wrong track. I've done that a couple of times with one of my lines because I went too fast, made assumptions, mixed up 2 couples with the same names in a town and because they weren't a neat, conventional family.
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Diatoms, you mentioned a possible marriage in Ireland. Good news is that civil registration records of Irish marriages from 1845 (Church of Ireland) and 1864 (Catholic) are free to search on Irish Genealogy ie website. Birth and death registrations began 1864. Images for some early records are not yet available to view; these are being added gradually.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie
You have to sign in , tick a box and do a little test each time you use the site. It's endorsed by the Irish Government. Some church registers are on it and more are being added.
Catholic parish registers, Irish census 1901 & 1911 and some 19th century land records such as Griffiths' Valuation and Tithes are free to view on official Irish websites.
A painless introduction to Irish family history is Irish Genealogy Toolkit.
https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com
There are several websites which can help in understanding and locating parishes, townlands, and various other land divisions in Ireland.
If you become bogged-down in Ireland, reach out on RootsChat Ireland board or a specific Irish county board. :)
I've learned a lot on RootsChat by helping to answer enquiries and seeing how other people do it.
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ahh you guys are brilliant! I am seriously thinking of going for ancestry but unsure which is the better out of find my past or ancestry. And... I have discovered a cousin in NZ who is also researching the Fox family tree since 1989! She is on Ancestry.
She sent me some info that Charles James Fox was married 4 times, the allegation was to rid himself of his first wife Ann Green in 1829, he then married Harriet who died in 1839, James Richard was apparently with his aunts on Isle of Wight in census 1841.
Charles Richard 1st marries Anne Green 1824, 2nd Harriet 1835, 3rd Maria Wallis 1841, 4th Elizabeth Russell (nee Toswell) 1848. Apparently James Richard's mother fits with harriet.
I am most definitely learning a lot from you guys, I have ditched some of what I found from other records and have done some of it myself and some with your help also.
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Many public libraries in UK have Find My Past and/or Ancestry. Some even have a volunteer from a local family history society present on a set day, perhaps once a month to advise beginners and help people stuck. Another paid site is The Genealogist. Before you sign up for an annual sub to a paid site, try them each for free or a short sub. I got 3 months free for The Genealogist with a coupon in a family history mag. There are threads on here discussing the various pay-sites.
I recommend joining a family history society. As well as talks etc they have help days/evenings. Even if you can't get to meetings you might be able to take part remotely on a forum or Facebook.
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So the Elizabeth in 1851 is a different wife and not the Elizabeth Saville who also married in 1841 in the same RD and same reference - duh ::)
Marriages June qtr 1841
FOX Charles Richard Stockbridge 7 277
WALLIS Maria Stockbridge 7 277
(SAVILLE Elizabeth Stockbridge 7 277)
Deaths September qtr 1847
Maria Fox aged 37 Stockbridge 7 159
Marriages March qtr 1848
Doswell Elizabeth Russell Stockbridge 7 307
Fox Charles Richard Stockbridge
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The James Richard Fox in Ireland was an Engineer he had two children in Co Tyrone
Hilda 1871 and Hugh below 1872
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1872/03240/2187031.pdf
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Appears to be a Commercial Traveller in paper in 1881
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27Q-PWYK
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Sidney 1875 father a Mechanic
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1875/03117/2143308.pdf
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The James Richard Fox in Ireland was an Engineer he had two children in Co Tyrone
Hilda 1871 and Hugh below 1872
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1872/03240/2187031.pdf
Mother of children was Annie Elizabeth (formerly Lee). Hilda was Hilda Emma. Her name has been transcribed as Eilda; I've submitted amendment.
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ok ok ok...... so how come you guys find the Irish records?? Because every time I typed into the search on the Irish genealogy it came up with 'not known'.
Hands up - you guys are awesome!!!!! THANK YOU SO SO VERY MUCH :) :) :)
Anyone know about when Annie Elizabeth Lee/Fox was married and died? again - I cant find alot on her. It is possible she was born around 1851, apparently she was young when she had her children.
James Richard Fox 1st wife Emma Steere d.1869 buried in Battersea (London). Enter Annie Elizabeth Lee... James and Annie's 1st child together was born in Tyrone Ireland 1871 - Hylda Emma Agnes, on the birth registry James was a mechanic in Ireland. Ive searched for the marriage certificate but to no avail, I also cant find when she died. Any ideas please??
Thank you :)
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Sidney's age is out by 5 yrs on this one but he appears to be the only one of that name born in Ireland living in England
wonder would it be worth checking out the relatives to see who he's related to
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:4WQJ-PZM
going by the wifes age marriage before 1871
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VF63-TYV
Harry Pocock 1881
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q277-53NF
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Quote:
" Sidney's age is out by 5 yrs on this one but he appears to be the only one of that name born in Ireland living in England
wonder would it be worth checking out the relatives to see who he's related to"
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:4WQJ-PZM
Possible marriage:
Marriages Dec 1864
Coster John Pancras 1b 61
Fox Mary Elizabeth Pancras 1b 61
Mary E Coster shown in the above census as born c1846 Hampshire
Possible birth:
FOX, MARY ELIZABETH Mother's maiden name WALLIS
GRO Reference: 1845 J Quarter in THE STOCKBRIDGE UNION Volume 07 Page 219 :
Possible marriage for parents:
Marriages Jun 1841
FOX Charles Richard Stockbridge 7 277
WALLIS Maria Stockbridge 7 277
Added:
Quote
Harry Pocock 1881
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q277-53NF
Possible marriage:
Marriages Sep 1864
FOX Ellen Marylebone 1a 846
POCOCK Henry Alexander Marylebone 1a 846
Ellen is recorded on the above census as being born c1843 King Somborne Hampshire
Possible birth for Ellen (name not chosen when registered):
FOX, - Mother's maiden name WALLIS
GRO Reference: 1843 M Quarter in THE STOCKBRIDGE UNION Volume 07 Page 214
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ok ok ok...... so how come you guys find the Irish records?? Because every time I typed into the search on the Irish genealogy it came up with 'not known'.
Hands up - you guys are awesome!!!!! THANK YOU SO SO VERY MUCH :) :) :)
You may be putting in too much information or being too precise. For instance, I only fill in registration district box when I'm certain I know correct district. If too many results appear from whole of Ireland I select a district which I think is most likely from list at side of page; if no result in that district I select another possible. I put in a span of years unless I'm 100% sure the event was registered in a particular year. Sometimes I'll search for a surname in a district in a time-frame if I suspect forename may be different from what I think it is. Other people will have different strategies.
We learn by experience. I've learned things through helping on this and other forums and noticing how other people find out stuff and how they collaborate. RootsChatters generally choose to reply to topics about which they have some knowledge. If your topic had been about Wales for example, I would have clicked "Ignore topic".
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Quote:
Anyone know about when Annie Elizabeth Lee/Fox was married and died? again - I cant find alot on her. It is possible she was born around 1851, apparently she was young when she had her children.
James Richard Fox 1st wife Emma Steere d.1869 buried in Battersea (London). Enter Annie Elizabeth Lee... James and Annie's 1st child together was born in Tyrone Ireland 1871 - Hylda Emma Agnes, on the birth registry James was a mechanic in Ireland. Ive searched for the marriage certificate but to no avail, I also cant find when she died. Any ideas please??
1891 census:
Address: Ferndale Road Lambeth London
Head: Annie Fox, Widow, aged 38, born Surrey, occ: Machinist
Dau: Annett Fox, aged 13, born Surrey
Son Ernest Fox, aged 6, born Surrey
Possible death for Annie:
Deaths Sep 1897
Fox Annie Elizabeth aged 42 Lambeth 1d 317
Death for James:
Deaths Jun 1881
Fox James Richard 44 Wandsworth 1d 318
Birth for Ernest:
FOX, ERNEST mother's maiden name LEE
GRO Reference: 1883 D Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 635
so James Richard Fox not the biological father of Ernest
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James Richard Fox
b.1836 (Mottisfont)
d.Apr.1881 (Wandsworth, Surrey; died to faulty small pox vaccination)
m.Jun.1857 (Kensington) – John Walker & Mary Jolly witnesses.
Emma Steere
b. 1830 (Guildford)
d.Jun.1869 (Battersea)
George Charles Harriet Elizabeth Edith Emma Louis Harold
b.May.1858 (Ryde IoW) b.1862 (Wallingford) b.Jul.1866(Andover) b.Nov.1867
James Richard 2nd marriage
m.
Annie Elizabeth Lee
b.?1851
Hilda Emma Agnes Hugh William Boyd Sidney James Richard Annette Mary Ellen
b.1871(Tyrone,Ireland) b.1873(Cookstown,Ireland) b.1875(Belfast,Ireland) b.Mar.1878 (Clapham)