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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: Amberella on Tuesday 08 January 19 02:26 GMT (UK)
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My great-grandmother, Mary Emma Williams Bowen, is buried in Montreal. I have a photo of her headstone with the life dates 1863 - 1903. I had accepted that as gospel truth shall we say until last week; when I found her STILL ALIVE and still married to her husband Howard Prime Bowen! The census was taken June 11, 1911. Howard Prime married a second time on December 14, 1912 & he was listed as a "widower". Therefore I'm assuming that Mary Emma died after June 11, 1911 and before December 14, 1912. Is THIS a logical assumption?
I have to assume that the census records are accurate i.e. that the person taking the census actually saw Mary Emma & just wasn't told she was still alive. Is this a correct assumption?? What makes it more difficult is that there is no record of her death; the province of Quebec has a really convoluted method of registering a death & I can't find her death in their archives, Ancestry.ca, Find My Past, LDS - nowhere.
Let's add another wrinkle. Both Mary Emma & Howard were UNITARIANS. I contacted the Unitarian Church in Canada & was told that quite frankly, the Unitarian's BMD records were sparse to non-existent.
Until about 2 decades ago, all Quebec BMD records were left in the hands of the parish church. Unitarians' records aren't available so it's almost a circular problem! Add another layer and Quebec usually registered women under their MAIDEN names but the Unitarian Church came from England where women were registered under their married name!! Anyone have some ideas what might have happened or where I might look for her death? Since I don't have a specific date of date I can't order a death certificate either.
Thanks!
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You might get more help if you post this query in the Canada or Overseas Board.
And good luck. That sounds like a nightmare.
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Newspaper x death notice
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How odd? Could he have been cohabiting with his future second wife and passing her off as Mary, perhaps?
Census enumerators did not inspect and account for family members. This is for the most part a form-filling exercise, though I am not familiar with the precise methodology in Canada.
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Hi,
Have you contacted the cemetery to find out her date of death/burial? Perhaps they will have some additional information about her?
If you can get a date of death, you can check the Montreal Gazette for an obituary. Looks like 1903 is online.
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=Fr8DH2VBP9sC
Perhaps the second wife was also called Mary?
ADDED - No - she was Janet Robson. See marriage information in a later post.
RK
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For reference...here is the 1901 census record showing Howard, Mary Emma and children
http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/1901/z/z003/jpg/z000149895.jpg
Here is the 1911 census record showing Howard, Mary and children
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1911/jpg/e002065878.jpg
RK
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Hi again,
Also for reference...here is the 1912 marriage of Howard Prime Bowen to Janet Robson in Toronto, Ontario
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9Q97-Y399-71RV?i=636&cc=1784216
RK
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Here are Howard and Janet in Toronto in 1921
http://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item/?app=Census1921&op=img&id=e003039709
RK
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What cemetery is she buried in. Have you tried contacting them to findout more info? A family tree at Geni.com has a death date of March 4, 1904 for Mary. There are some Unitarian records for Montreal online at Ancestry and I've checked through the 1904 records but did not find her. Also, the 1901 census says they were Methodists.
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Also, there are no death certificates in Quebec in that timeframe ... as you have noted, all of the BMDs were handled by the church.
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Looks like Mary Emma is in Mount Royal Cemetery. For a fee of 5 dollars, they will send you the information they have --
https://www.mountroyalcem.com/index.php/en/our-services/genealogy-menu.html
RK
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I see that Howard died on July 28 1921 and is buried in the Toronto Necropolis
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6W9S-MPG?i=1131&cc=1307826
His wife Janet died just a few weeks earlier than he did (June 1, 1921)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6W9S-7R2?i=837&cc=1307826
A possible theory... ???
Maybe Mary died around 1911. The family moved to Toronto in the same time frame. Perhaps they didn't get around to ordering a headstone until much later?? Maybe even after Howard had died - so the children were responsible? The headstone date could be an error?
Hopefully the cemetery can give you a date of death/burial.
RK
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What cemetery is she buried in. Have you tried contacting them to findout more info? A family tree at Geni.com has a death date of March 4, 1904 for Mary. There are some Unitarian records for Montreal online at Ancestry and I've checked through the 1904 records but did not find her. Also, the 1901 census says they were Methodists.
Mount Royal cemetery is going by what's on the headstone. I don't put much credit in online family trees. I've found that people aren't that careful checking - they just "lift" from someone else's tree. I got lead astray by that decades ago for my mother's family tree. I went for about 2 years trying to trace using hints from other's trees & finally figured out that these family trees had been slapped together willy-nilly!! It also helped that I had a good many of the original BMD certificates. So now unless I see the actual record, I just ignore them!
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I understand what you're saying, but since you don't have an actual date for her death, you have to start somewhere. Also, the cemetery record should give you a date of burial which may or may not match what's on the headstone.
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I understand what you're saying, but since you don't have an actual date for her death, you have to start somewhere. Also, the cemetery record should give you a date of burial which may or may not match what's on the headstone.
Been there, done that & they went by the headstone!! And I have a photo of the headstone from the last time I was in Montreal & it still says "1903"!! It's something, along with all the other mysterious ancestors, that I'll leave for a few months & see if more records come online!
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There is a Pete Bowen on Geni.com that is descended from this couple and has a tree online. You should perhaps try and contact him.
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There is a Pete Bowen on Geni.com that is descended from this couple and has a tree online. You should perhaps try and contact him.
Do you have a link? Up until my generation, there were absolutely NO Petes in the records but could be he's a Millennial offspring!?
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https://www.geni.com/people/Roland-Percival-Bowen/4800176537810031250
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https://www.geni.com/people/Roland-Percival-Bowen/4800176537810031250
Yes, that would be in my Bowen line but in the Clark family Bible (which encompasses the Bowens as well) He's ROWLAND PERCY BOWEN. Thanks for the link!
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Roland/Rowland Percival Bowen born 13 June 1894 and baptised 18 June 1899
Sandra
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Since that tree has yet another date of death I had a look at the newspaper linked earlier for March 5th 1904. Obits are on page 7. Nothing there.
Next issue.....they had a party the night before scanningI think....first and last few pages ok, but here is a clip from the middle (the fuzziness is my fault but the mirror writing is not!)
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Roland/Rowland Percival Bowen born 13 June 1894 and baptised 18 June 1899
Sandra
Thank you so much!! That "Methodist" designation is probably just for "convenience" although I'll have to check out the non-conformist links. Mary Emma Williams was the daughter of a Unitarian minister in England. When Howard Prime Bowen married his second wife, he listed his religion as "Unitarian". I am the keeper of the MASSIVE marble clock given to Mary Emma's father, Samuel Fletcher Williams, when he retired along with the illuminated "thank you" piece of paper that came with the clock. I've found that my branch of the Bowen family is rather fluid about religion. Some of them are Methodists, some Anglican, some Congregationalist, some Huguenot, some Plymouth Brethren. I often wonder what it was like at the dinner table when the Congregationalist sister-in-law chatted with the brother-in-law who was with the Plymouth Brethren or her sister, who was Unitarian. Possibly it's one of those cases where they never talked about religion or politics!!
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My husband's parents were Unitarian even tho' she was raised in the United Church here in Canada (church organist father) and baptized in the Congregationalist church in Sherbrooke, Quebec, so yes, religion can be a fluid thing!
The link I sent had a link to the manager of the site who was Pete Bowen who must be a descendant of Rowland.
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George Henry Bowen baptised same day............
born 6 July 1898 and baptised 18 June 1899
Sandra
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and another baptised same day - Charles Sydney
born 2 April 1896 baptised 18 June 1899
Sandra
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and another baptised same day - Charles Sydney
born 2 April 1896 baptised 18 June 1899
Sandra
LOL - Rowland, Charles & Harry were born 1894, 1896 & 1898 so it sound as if the parents rounded them all up, got them "spit & polished" at the same time & got them to the church!! Thanks for those
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If Mary Emma was buried from the same church that the children were baptized in.....
The online records for this church appear to NOT have 1903 as part of the collection. This may explain why the burial can't be found.
My suggestion matches an earlier one....IMHO, you need to apply for the death date ($5.00 option) from the cemetery.
PB
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If Mary Emma was buried from the same church that the children were baptized in.....
The online records for this church appear to NOT have 1903 as part of the collection. This may explain why the burial can't be found.
My suggestion matches an earlier one....IMHO, you need to apply for the death date ($5.00 option) from the cemetery.
PB
Unfortunately, the death date on the cemetery headstone is quite possibly WRONG; I contacted the cemetery & all they said was "1903" which doesn't explain the discrepancy between the headstone and the 1911 census. It says she died 1903 however she's still alive in the 1911 census. What I've done is found researchers in Quebec to see if they can locate her death from 1911 to 1912. After that will leave it for a while. It's really unfortunate that everyone who WOULD know is now dead or suffering from Alzheimer disease.
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I get that, but no matter what date she died, the cemetery should be able to provide an accurate date from their records. There is always the possibility that Howard made an error with the 1911 census.
Welcome to RootsChat :)
PB
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I get that, but no matter what date she died, the cemetery should be able to provide an accurate date from their records. There is always the possibility that Howard made an error with the 1911 census.
Welcome to RootsChat :)
PB
As I said, I contacted the cemetery & all they gave me was the information on the headstone. They didn't even seem to have a register (like many British parish churches had/have) where BMD are noted down. Not that THAT would have been much use in Quebec with its seemingly hit-or-miss record keeping! And having been a census taker on several occasions in my province, before the last couple of census years, we HAD to go around personally and actually sit at the kitchen table with a awkward book & write down what the chosen household member was telling us - usually the wife. It wasn't until recently that Canada changed to sending out the forms in the mail & the householder has to fill everything in thus opening the way for errors. Many people would add in a family member even if they were visiting or studying somewhere else when what should ACTUALLY happen is that whatever household the AWOL family member was visiting would be the one where they were counted. Anyway, I suspect Mary Emma will have to be left for a while. I've still got a pile of family documents to sort through so perhaps something is there.
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UPDATE: I've decided to overcome my hesitation that errors aren't made on census forms and indeed, that people will LIE to a census enumerator & therefore to work with the theory that the date on the headstone is correct. I went through the original documents I have & found that my great-grandfather bought the cemetery plot on October 14, 1903. IF I assume that her husband knew she only had days to live or that she had died on October 14, 1903, I decided that I'm going to try to wade through the French-only Province of Quebec archives & order a death certificate for October 17, 1903. A crap-shoot as we here in Canada say however it seems to be the only way of reconciling all this disparate information!! It really goes against all my instincts though about accuracy of census information (I mean, why would the family LIE 8 years after her death??!!) however right now that seems to be the only answer!! Now my only other question is: who the heck took care of all those kids (the oldest was 12 & the youngest 4) between 1903 & 1912??!! ???