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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Denbighshire => Wales => Denbighshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: paddy22 on Wednesday 09 January 19 19:55 GMT (UK)
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Looking for the burial of my g.g.grandmother Sarah Booth nee Edwards of Llangollen born 1813. The last record of Sarah is 1854 when her son William was born in Manchester and then she disappears.
I cannot find her death in Manchester and wondered if she had died or been transported back to wales for her burial.
Any help would be appreciated.
Regards Paddy
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Nothing in the Llangollen burials around that time.
Did she marry Thomas Booth in 1853, Manchester?
Where was William in 1861?
Sorry to ask these questions but as much inf as you have helps.
Gadget
Added - if she returned to the Llangollen area, the GRO RD would be Corwen
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Not sure if this is correct or someone making some educated guesses?
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/159473485
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Could be Mabel. Well found :)
If she is the one who married Thomas Booth, she was a widow when she married him. Her first husband was a Roberts.
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For any others looking for her, I've just checked the Llangollen baptisms and it looks as if she did marry Thomas Booth. Father was a John Edwards, a Smith. Baptised 21 Feb 1813. Residence Bache, which is up the steep hills (Berwyn foothills) to the south of the town.
Gadget
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I'm not sure if I'm missing something but there's no death record that I can find associated with the burial :-\
Add - also this:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/159374579/thomas-booth
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There are a number of Sarah Booth deaths registered Bolton at other dates, e.g.:
Q3, 1882, Bolton, aged 70
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Thanks for all your replies. I have searched for the death of Sarah for years. She married John Roberts in Llangollen and was then widowed in 1849. In 1853 she married Thomas Bentley Booth in Manchester and they had a son in 1854 and then they all disappear from records until William surfaces in Hull being married in 1875. In 1876 Thomas died in Limehouse, London and is buried in Tower Hamlets cemetery. His landlady registered his death.
No record of Sarah at all since William's birth in 1854. Reading it was common for coffins to be transported by train back to their place of birth I wondered if she had been sent back to Wales - clutching at straws ! A few years ago I queried a death on Find My Grave and in short it was later recorded as her death but no one could tell me where they had got the record from so I think it was the information I gave them !!!
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Is there any indication on Thomas's death cert that he was widowed? I know it's unlikely but ......
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
No. His landlady registered the death but of course Sarah could have been elsewhere as he was buried about 2/3 days after death. He was buried in a public grave.
Over the years I've spoken to record offices, sent for lots of death certs. There are records of Sarah Booth in several places but with no d.o.b. or husband's name it's been impossible to link anything. I have a record of a Sarah Booth dying in a workhouse but no other details so it could be anyone.
Sarah had 4 children with Robert but she isn't with them on any census records. Thomas Bentley Booth was a mechanic/engineer and his father a hatter so it seems odd William went off to Hull to be a fisherman, eventually moving to Aberdeen marrying his 2nd wife and is a skipper.
So from 1854 - Thomas dying in 1876 did Thomas work abroad ? I followed the idea that if Sarah died in childbirth William could have been farmed out to family but no record of her dying.
Thomas was born in Bury, married in Manchester and living at 13 Minshull Street, Manchester where William was born.
Pat
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I've been doing some broad searching on them all. Shipping lists around that time aren't very complete and many of the pages of the 1861 census are missing.
I assume that you've followed up her other children to see if thee might be clues but could you give their details, just in case.
I know Llangollen well as I was from that area and went to school there :)
Gadget
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Thank you.
Mary Ann Roberts b. 26.4.1835 Llangollen Married Henry Cooper 1852. Died 1895
Sarah Jane Roberts b. March 1838 Liverpool Married Benjamin Riley
Thomas Roberts b. 1840 Liverpool died 1844
John Roberts b.1849 Bury died 1851
Pat
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Interesting in relation to Thomas's death:
1871 22 Davis Terrace, Poplar, London
RG10/587/117/32
Henry Cooper, 40, Engineer (at Sea) b Leeds
Mary Ann, 36, b. Llangollen
John J, 16, b Manchester
Ellen, 14, b. do
George H, 10, b. Southampton
Francis W, 7, b. do
I wonder if William was influenced by his step brother in law.
Gadget
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Also in Southampton in 1861...
RG9/673/125/2
..but no sign of Sarah or William :-\
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I hadn't thought of that in relation to William but had wondered if Thomas was also an engineer at sea as he died in Limehouse.
Having to recheck records as I've been unable to do much F H for a while due to vision problems but have found following death certificate -
Mary Edwards, widow, died 18th December 1865 at 100 Paradise Street, Bury. The informant was Sarah Jane Riley her granddaughter. Was Sarah already dead ? Baffling.
Pat
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Interesting:
Mary Edwards is in Bury in 1861 and no sign of Sarah Booth
100 Paradise Street, Bury
RG(/2848/23/40
Mary Edwards, 75, b. Llangollen, Wales
Sarah J Roberts, grdd, unm, 23, b. Bury
2 boarders
Gadget
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The only death of a possible Sarah Booth in Bury, 1854-1861 is
Q1, 1861, 8C p 306 AGED 53
A bit older than expected but age at death is always iffy.
Also, which might fit with the age on the marriage cert- I think she gave an age of 35
Q4, 1877, 8C p 346 Aged 60
Gadget
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Sarah was born in 1813 so was 40 when she married Thomas. He was 31 yrs old when they married so perhaps she did fabricate her age.
Are those records on Ancestry please ?
Pat
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The death registrations are on the GRO index:
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp
After login, go to GRO Index. The Death and Birth Indexes can be searched over a certain period and give age at death and mmn on the birth registrations.
It can be a bit tedious as you can only search with year +/- 2
Gadget
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I've just checked again with her age on the marriage cert. She gave her age as 38 on May 23 1854 and was living at 42 Bloom Street. I assume that this was to reduce her age because Thomas gives his age as 32.
I see that daughter Mary Ann Cooper was a witness.
Gadget
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I was unable to register on GRO. I share the same address as my husband (different computers) and I think he must be already registered with them.
Checking on LancsBMD I have already checked the deaths at some time in the past with no luck.
Do the GRO certificates give more information than usual ?
Pat
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See the below link that is about the searchable Online Index
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/most_customers_want_to_know.asp#OnlineIndex
and includes
Historic birth and death records will be made available to search. These are birth records from 1837 to 1918 and death records from 1837 to 1957.
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Would you say I am barking up the wrong tree in thinking my brick wall could be solved in Llangollen ?
No doubt more records could be online in the period I had to give up searching. Do some people disappear from records and never resurface again ?
Pat
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I may be wrong but I don't think she would have gone back to Llangollen. None of her family seem to have returned. Her mother was in Bury and died there and her two surviving daughters did not return.
Gadget
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Do you have William's Aberdeen marriage cert?
If so when was it and what did it say about his mother?
Gadget
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His mother is deceased in 1893 when William remarried in Aberdeen.
Pat
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Gadget
Re reading the posts did Sarah live in Bache ? Have been googling and wondered if the Smithy is still there in some form ?
I think you make a good case of ruling out Sarah went back there. I'm presently trying to find out if a record of a Sarah Booth who died in Haydock Lodge on 20.2.1867 is her. It's an asylum. Lancashire Archives don't have many patient records but some have been deposited with St Helens archives and I have contacted them.
Pat
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Her parents lived there when she was baptised.
I'm not sure whether the smithy is there - will check the current maps, etc. but I don't recall it being there when I visited cousins there a few years ago.
I've been doing global searches for William (1854) to see if I can find him. By 1871, he could possibly be at sea and out of British waters but, in 1861, he would only have been 6-7.b The only reasons that I can think of are that the family were on one of the missing 1861 pieces, being away from Britain or being recorded/transcribed really badly.
Will get back to you about the Smithy if I find anything.
Gadget
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The baptism record has John Edwards as a Sith, living at Bache. Unfortunately, this doesn't mean that he lived at a smithy.
The old maps that I've so far looked at does not have a smithy marked in the Bache area.
I've just looked through the Bache area in 1841. There is just one person that i can see who might be described as a smith - Edward Jones, a wheelwright. No mention of a Smithy.
Gadget
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Note that a Smith could describe a number of sub-groups - a tinsmith, a whitesmith, etc.
Both the baptism and the marriage certificate records him as a smith only. Do you have any info about his marriage to Mary or baptisms of any other siblings of Sarah that might give more info?
Gadget
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No I'm afraid I know little of the family. Thank you for letting me know about the smithy, that saves me barking up the wrong tree.
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A quck search of the Llangollen registers for baptisms to John (smith) and Mary Edwards, 1800-1820 ~
1810 Mary, Bache
1812 Margaret, Trefor Isaf - not sure as it was Oct and Sarah bpt Feb 1813.
1813 Sarah, Bache
Gadget
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The problem I had was so many John and Mary Edwards on the records for Llangollen.
Pat
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I wonder if there was a reason for William going to sea on the east coast when it would have been closer to go to the west coast.
Pat
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That's a big question!
There are many reasons, depending on what type of fishing (inshore or deep sea), hiring, etc. I have few ancestors who where fishermen but those I've researched for friends have moved around - Tyneside to Liverpool, Cornwall , for e.g.
See here for how those at sea on census night were treated in the various 19th century censuses:
http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/UKCensuses.html
Added - Scottish fishermen used to follow the herring, so you had east coasters and west coasters moving to the other coast depending on where the herring were.
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Yes I have a great grandmother from Brixham, Devon. Her family moved to Hull in 1853 to fish.
I was looking for an angle hoping he had moved to a Booth family in Hull but never found any.
Thank you very much for all your help.
Pat
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Hi Gadget,
Re my search for Sarah Booth. There is a Sarah Booth age 80 in Mile End Workhouse 1893. As Thomas Bentley Booth died in Stepney I suppose she could have been in the area. How do I prove it's her though as I've never been happy just to make facts fit.
I would appreciate the benefit of your experience.
Regards
Pat
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There are some records of Mile End at the London Met Archives - see end of this page:
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/MileEndOldTown/
It might be worth you asking for a look up at the LMA.
Gadget
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I've looked at the admissions and discharge. DOB is shown but not not place of birth. Will have to find another angle.
Pat
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What is the date of birth?
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Have you checked for any Sarah Booths, b.c. 1813 in London area on the 1891?
(sorry posted previous message before I'd finished :-\ )
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Yes I have checked for 1891. It shows a Sarah Booth in the workhouse infirmary but no other information to prove it's my Sarah.
To confuse matters there is a Sarah Booth born in Stepney in 1813, not Llangollen, Wales.
Pat
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Admission - Tower Hamlets, Stepney
24 Feb 1894
Sarah Booth aged 81
As you said that William's marriage cert in1893 records her as deceased. this might not be her. He could, of course, not know her whereabouts.
Gadget
His mother is deceased in 1893 when William remarried in Aberdeen.
Pat
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More details
It says that she was transferred from Mile End and was a Lacemaker, b. 1813
Gadget
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I don't think it's her. There's a few records of the SB born in Stepney being a Lacemaker. Sarah was a housekeeper in Bury, Lancashire. I know people took a variety of jobs then to survive but how likely to switch to lacemaker ?
Pat
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I was demonstrating that the person you mentioned:
Hi Gadget,
Re my search for Sarah Booth. There is a Sarah Booth age 80 in Mile End Workhouse 1893. As Thomas Bentley Booth died in Stepney I suppose she could have been in the area. How do I prove it's her though as I've never been happy just to make facts fit.
.... was unlikely to be her.
Gadget
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Yes I know Gadget, many thanks, I agree with you.
Pat
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To save me time going through the thread, Pat, could you say when and where you last found her, please.
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Thomas and Sarah marry in 1853 in Manchester.
In 1854 her son William is born, they are living at no. 13 Minshull Street, Manchester. After that she doesn't appear on any another record.
Pat
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Hi there, Sarah Booth, nee roberts, nee Edwards was my ggg grandmother and married to Thomas Bentley Booth as a widow. I have found a record of her burial in the Tonge Cemetery in Bury in 1868. This was on the findagrave website. It is definitely her as it also has the name edwards from Llangollen, but I cannot find any other record of the burial. She was formerly married to John Roberts and had two children Sarah J and John . I found that Sarah J was living with her granmother in 1861 in Bury. Her grandmother was listed on the census as a pauper. In 1851 her mother Sarah Roberts was the housekeeper to a schoolmaster in Manchester and had both children living with her. She had William with thomas b Booth but I can't find any reference to any of the children since then apart from the daughter. There is a record of a William booth boarding at a small school but not sure if it him. The name of Thomas Bentley goes right through my fathers family, the latest being born in 1915. He was my grandfathers brother. Hope this helps.
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Hello Christine
Welcome to Rootschat :)
I'm not sure if Pat has seen your message but I'm sure she'll be grateful for the information.
Looking through the thread, I see that we found :
The only death of a possible Sarah Booth in Bury, 1854-1861 is
Q1, 1861, 8C p 306 AGED 53
A bit older than expected but age at death is always iffy.
Also, which might fit with the age on the marriage cert- I think she gave an age of 35
Q4, 1877, 8C p 346 Aged 60
Gadget
Not sure if this is correct or someone making some educated guesses?
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/159473485
I'm not sure if I'm missing something but there's no death record that I can find associated with the burial :-\
Add - also this:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/159374579/thomas-booth
I'm now wondering if the memorial details might be in error. There's no photo for either entry. If you live near Bury, it might be worth looking for the memorial to check.
Gadget
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What interesting detective work .
From persomnal experience ROBERTS of Denbighshire are really hard to investigate . ( I dont know about EDWARDS or BOOTH)
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Yes, it's a very common surname in North Wales ;D
How strange that you've only made 3 posts, all of which I've been on - coincidence or common interest ???
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Hi, Had some difficulty replying - so long since I've been on the site. I'm afraid the entry in the Tonge graveyard isn't correct. A few years ago I sent her details to Findagrave querying if she was on the site and the next thing I knew they'd put it on the site. I tried to inform them it wasn't correct, as by then I'd spoken to someone in the records, but they didn't reply.
I have most of the records you have except Sarah and John had 4 children, Mary Ann, Sarah Jane, Thomas and John. I know what happened to William if you need the information. My family also had 3 further Thomas Bentley Booths. Did your last one die in 1985 as I wonder if we're speaking about the same people ? I've never found when Sarah died or Thomas Booth her father in law.
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Christine,
Sorry forgot to ask you about the record of William Booth being at a boarding school. Is this Manchester please ?
Pat
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Hi there, How disappointing, I thought I had done really well finding her! It is a mystery where they all disappeared. The trouble is that Booth is a common name, as is sarah and thomas. Unfortuantely I didn't make a note of the school but I will look again, I know I found a photo of the school. I will check again and let you know. Just out of interest which area are you from? I'm in HULL, east yorkshire.
regards
christine
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Hi Christine,
I live in Beverley.
I naively thought because Sarah came from Llangollen I'd find her amongst all the Sarah Booth's. I would love to know what happened to cause William to move across to Hull. After all the years of looking for her haven't found any Edwards on any FH group looking for her too.
Regards
Pat
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Hi Pat
Its very frustrating at times isn't it? Did you suggest the Tonge cemetery, Bury or have they just entered the details for that place? It seems quite specific. My dad was Lawrence Booth and his father was Alfred Booth. Alfreds' brother was Thomas Bentley Booth , I believe he did pass away in 1985. He also had a young brother also named Thomas Bentley who passed away when he was 8. I will keep looking for William Booth. I wonder if he was taken in by another branch of the family? or if he moved for work. I'll let you know if I find any more.
Christine
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Hi Christine,
I knew your dad and Uncle Alf. It was quite shocking what happened to the young T.B.B. perhaps you know the story. He was struck on the head by a schoolteacher and died the next day. We have newspaper cuttings about it. Think what would happen today !
I'd contacted Findagrave querying if Sarah was buried there and gave some information. They didn't reply simply put her information on the site. They do a lot of good work but I wasn't happy. Long story but I was given contact details of the Tonge cemetery office by someone and a member of staff checked the records and told me she isn't there.
I too had wondered if William had been taken in by the family, perhaps Sarah had died but have never found a record.
My father was Alec, Alf's brother. Alf used to turn up at our house and take us out in his little black car - quite something then as not many people had them.
Pat
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Hi Pat, I remember your dad Alec, We used to call in to see him at the fire station on Southcoates Lane as it was near our school on Southcoates Lane. My nana Booth (Dolly or Clara) would walk with us back to her work place at Metal Box and we would often see Alec. I remember the little black car as my dad used to borrow it to take us out. Ive only just started researching the family during lockdown so it is all quite new to me. If you find anything else I would be really interested. Likewise if I find anymore I will let you know.
Take Care s
Christine
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Hi Christine
I suppose we are half cousins ? I vaguely remember going to your parent's wedding.
I started FH back in the early 1990's before anything was on line. Lovely to hear from you. You probably know Alfred and Esther Booth had 10 children. I am in regular contact with 3 of my cousins.
Are you on any other websites ? Good luck, there is such a lot of information on the internet now.
Best wishes
Pat
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Christine,
Do you mind telling me about boarding school you think William went to please ?
Pat
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Hi Pat
Ive tried finding it again I will keep looking. I read about the incident at the school. Its awful that the teacher hit him and made his ear bleed but they did say it was tuberculosis so she wasn't to blame. I think these days she would have been prosecuted and sacked though. I think we are half cousins, I have a brother, Peter and a sister Kathy. Peter remembers your dad as well, he remembers going to see the fire engines. I will keep looking.
take care
Christine
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Hi Christine,
His death certificate states cause of death General tuberculosis and acute meningitis PM so not sure about that.
I had wondered if his mother had died and William farmed out to relatives so will be interesting to read about the school. I still haven't found Sarah's death. It's bad luck if it's been mis transcribed, we'll never know what happened to her.
Pat