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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Kathy Dean on Wednesday 09 January 19 20:20 GMT (UK)
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Hi I applied for my father's birth certificate in November 2017,the last call to Home Affairs being in Dec 2018, I was informed that there is a query on his place of birth, Durban South Africa. Where can I find assistance in this matter, trying to apply for ancestral visa. Thanks
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Birth Certificate in which country?
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Hi Kathy
Welcome to Rootschat :)
One wonders why the Home Affairs dept. are querying his place of birth. Did you provide that piece of information yourself when applying for his birth cert?
The dept. presumably has to make sure they are sending you the correct certificate. Is his name a common one?
Are you positive about where he was born?
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Hi Thanks for the welcome. Yes I did supply Home Affairs here in South Africa with the info. My 3 siblings and I were all under the impression that he was born in Durban South Africa. This is what we remember. It appears this is not the case. Have already received a copy of his father's birth certificate. Both his father and mother and oldest brother were born in Scotland! His name is common, John William Gordon. Have enlisted the help of a genealogist in Scotland. She has done an extensive search, including USA, Canada and of course the UK. He had another brother, few years older, appears his birthplace is also unknown!! Have found the passenger list of the ship my grandparents and oldest uncle were on. They left London in 1912 and disembarked in Durban, South Africa!
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Hhmm, so they left London in 1912. In theory it should be possible to locate the family in the 1901 census and earlier. The 1911 census information is for England and Wales only so if they weren't there in 1911 won't be able to locate them.
Could you provide the names of his parents and sibling(s), their birth places if known and birth years?What was his father's occupation? What information was on the passenger list?
I am assuming that your father has died? If so do you have his death certificate and what does it say?
Did your genealogist look for any wills?
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Genealogist has been most helpful thus far, as I recall she did all the necessary checks, census etc, but not sure about wills. I do have my father's death certificate but it only states date of birth and death. Thinking, perhaps year of birth is incorrect. I have a copy of his ID card, it has 9 digits unlike our current ID docs. Tried to find what the digits represent this a.m, can't seem to find anything. On enquiring at the local office late last year the consultant said the numbers do not relate to dates???? As you see ID 490383016, has 16 at the end, could this be year of birth? Death certificate states 1917. Father Born Thomas Monteith Samuel (to add to the confusion they changed surname to Gordon?????) Coachman(not domestic) Born 14 Aug 1884, Glasgow. Mother Maud Ellen(Hayden) Samuel. Brother Alexander Thomas Samuel 28 Sept 1911, South West Hackney London. Don't have info for other brother Hayden, will check in correspondence received from my sister. Passenger list has them listed as Gordon, grandparents and Alexander embarked London 1912 and arrived in Durban South Africa. Don't seem to think they traveled much after arriving here. I contacted the hospital where my father passed this morning, no joy.
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Hhmm, so they left London in 1912. In theory it should be possible to locate the family in the 1901 census and earlier. The 1911 census information is for England and Wales only so if they weren't there in 1911 won't be able to locate them.
The Scottish census is available on Scotlands People. You need to sign up and purchase credits to view that plus many other records:
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/guides/census-records/1911-census
If you have Scottish ancestry you need to use Scotlands People to purchase birth, death and marriage certificates. Cost is very reasonable. Census transcriptions only are available on the pay sites apart from the 1911.
Familysearch has decent coverage for some areas of Scotland so worth checking there too.
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Who filled in his death certificate? If it was not his wife it is entirely possible that the birth date you have is completely wrong?
Is this him JOHN WILLIAM GORDON 1921/11/20 (Is you mother deceased? wifes name is M**** S*****)
20th November 1921
https://www.identitynumber.org/death-records.php
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Is this his mothers birth date
MAUD MARY GORDON 18941229
29 December 1894
https://www.identitynumber.org/death-records.php
amended I see she was Maud Ellen Gordon
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This is interesting
ELLEN MAUD ARY SAMUEL 19130425
Ellen Maud (Mary?) Samuel born 25 April 1913
https://www.identitynumber.org/death-records.php
Was their a sister too, maybe died young? Not sure, name is a co-incidence
How much do you really know about your fathers family?
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Thomas Monteith Samuel is easy to trace on 1891/1901 on census in Scotland, 1911 in London in the city as a fireman.
He certainly liked to move around, Alexander Thomas birth registered dec qtr 1911 Hackney, then baptised as Thomas Alexander Samuel born 28/9/1911 bapt 19/11/1911 Jesus Chapel Enfield, but gives his address as 25 High Street Peckham.
Jennifer
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25 high street Peckham is on google maps, it is a shop with accommodation above.
Jennifer
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Is this his death on Familysearch?
Thomas Monteith Gordon
South Africa, Pietermaritzburg Estate Files 1846-1950
Thomas Monteith Gordon
Probate
1948
Natal, South Africa
62
Birth Year (Estimated) 1886
Birthplace Scotland
died 19 Feb 1948
at Durban
Lists the sons names
Alexander Thomas Gordon (Major)
John William Gordon (Major)
Maud Gordon died Feb 1920, they married in London on this document
((Could Army records in South Africa provide more detail?))
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Can trace Thomas mother Mary (nee Monteith) Samuel through Scottish census, except 1881 where a Mary Gordon pops up matching ?
Jennifer
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Maude Ellen Gordons Civil death Registration is on Family search to
South Africa, Natal Province, Civil Deaths
Maud Ellen Gordon
Death
27 Feb 1920
Escombe, Pinetown, Natal, South Africa
Age 31
Birth Year (Estimated) 1889
Birthplace England
So she died or TB 3 years after John William Gordon was born? Could he have been born around Escombe, Pinetown, Natal?
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They married sept qtr 1910 West Ham
Jennifer
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Looks like Maud Ellen Hayden was born dec qtr 1889 West Ham
Jennifer
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Looks like Maud Ellen Hayden was born dec qtr 1889 West Ham
Jennifer
Marriage on freebdm
Marriages Sep 1910
Hayden Maud E W Ham 4a 184
Samuel Thomas M W. Ham 4a 184
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The Hayden family look to be well researched on line even a picture of maud’s father George. No information on Maud though.
Jennifer
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Maud is living in Dalston in 1911.
Jennifer
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Just putting this here to
Is this Hayden Gordon?
HAYDEN ROBERT GORDON 19430509
Born 09th May 1943
https://www.identitynumber.org/death-records.php
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Just found a tree with Hayden born 1914 Natal and John William 1917 Cape Town
Jennifer
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Just found a tree with Hayden Samuel born 1914 Natal and John William 1917 Cape Town
Jennifer
That is good!
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Ive removed Samuel as not sure if they are under a Samuel or Gordon
Jennifer
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Familysearch again
Hayden Edward (Edmund?) Gordon
Marriage
23 Dec 1939
Durban, Natal, South Africa
24 years
Birth Year (Estimated) 1915
Stoffelina Andrisa Venter (Staffelina Sandrina?)
Female
18 years
Spouse's Birth Year (Estimated) 1921
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Yes this is the info I have. I have a copy of an entry of MARRIAGES which has the district as Westham dated 8 Dec 1975? Was wondering about the date and why and where were they living when requesting the. Marriage solemnized parish church of Seyton? County Essex? 1910 Looks like August 17. And yes, cause of death is correct. When I filled in the application for my father's birth certificate, I put his place of birth as, Durban Natal known as Kwa Zulu Natal. Surely this is sufficient? Maybe not. Will apply again stating Escombe Pinetown Natal. Thanks to all. Holding thumbs.
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District is West Ham and parish Leyton both were in Essex then .
Jennifer
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Oh my, the Rootschatters have certainly provided you with plenty of information now Kathy. You should be able to move further on with all this. :)
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Yes, indeed!
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Not sure where the person who’s tree I saw got the information John William born Cape Town ?
Jennifer
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Will check with my contact who did the family tree.