RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: LizzieW on Thursday 10 January 19 13:10 GMT (UK)
-
The younger woman is my half g.aunt and the older woman standing is her mother, my g.gran's sister. The younger woman lost her husband in WW1 sadly he died on 10 November 1918, so near to the end of the war.
He actually died in Epsom hospital from his wounds, but the family lived in Leeds so I'm assuming the war memorial is possibly in Leeds. Does anyone recognise it?
-
Whoops, not that it's relevant to the memorial, the younger one is my half 1st cousin once removed. My g.gran married, the lady standing is her eldest daughter and the one sitting is her daughter. However, my g.gran, many years and a few children later, took up with my g.grandfather and my gran was born. She was 11 months older than the young lady but they were brought up as sisters in Hull when my (half) g.aunt moved to Leeds. When she was older she moved to Leeds to live with her mother and married in Leeds.
Although these relationships seem distant now, I did know both these ladies and met them a few times when I was young.
-
I'm a bit confused by the relationships, but it might be important to know who moved to Leeds and when; and especially, where was this chap living when he joined up?
In my family there was a man who had moved from the family home not long before the war, but the ruling was that he had to be commemorated where he'd been living when he enlisted, rather than where he was better known.
EDITED TO ADD:
Can you give us his name? Someone may have access to a listing and be able to find him that way.
-
OK, the man who died was Herbert Bailey. He actually enlisted with the Canadian Over-Seas Expeditionary Force in July 1915 but at the time he gave his next of kin as his mother who lived in Leeds. He had returned to England by November 1915 and it seems he stayed in the UK in the Manitoba Regiment Depot in Sussex until August 1917 when he was transferred to 18th Reserve Battalion and sent to France. By September 1918 he was in Aden where he was shot in the face and returned to England. He died in The Manor (County of London) War Hospital London about 4 weeks later.
The older lady (my half g.aunt) moved to Leeds sometime between 1891 and 1899 when she married a man in Leeds. Her daughter (who married Herbert Bailey) moved to Leeds sometime between 1901 and 1911 and married Herbert Bailey in 1915 in Leeds. At some stage his next of kin on his attestation papers was changed to his wife's name with an address in Sussex, however after his death, his wife was back living with her mother in Leeds and they lived together until first her mother died in 1954 and she died in 1970.
His name is actually on a War Memorial in Lawnswood Cemetery, Leeds but it is not the war memorial in the photo.
So, although he enlisted in Canada, I doubt that the war memorial is in Canada as there is no way Edith and her mother would have travelled there and, in any case, Herbert was an Englishman.
So unless the memorial is in Leeds, the other option would, presumably, be Epsom, perhaps in or near the War Hospital.
-
It looks as though there is some sort of regimental badge or something at the top of the memorial plaque.
-
Is he mentioned here
https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/listed-every-single-name-on-long-lost-leeds-ww1-memorial-1-8486040
-
No he's not on that list, but then he is listed on the Lawnswood memorial. However, the war memorial in the photo is one that is outside somewhere. It's interesting that the 2 ladies are dressed for summer, (and the sun is shining in the photo) yet the children nearby look dressed more for winter. Also they appear to be laying a very large wreath, not like the wreaths we lay today.
As I thought the memorial was possibly in Leeds I posted it on this site but I think I'll ask the mod to move the post to the Armed Forces boards.
-
His grave info :-
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01n8f/
Malky
-
Malky - Sorry I can't open that link it keeps timing out. So I tried http://explore.library.leeds.ac.uk/ and no joy either.
I can get onto the Uni of Leeds Library site via Google, so what search criteria did you use?
-
He's shown in a transcript on the Yorkshire Indexers site as having been buried in Woodhouse Cemetery. This is confirmed by information on the CWGC site, but this also mentions the memorial at Lawnswood. The documents provided by the CWGC seem to suggest his body was exhumed and removed to Lawnswood in 1927, but in that case would there be some record of him there as well? The inscription on the plaque on the memorial wall at Lawnswood seems to suggest he may now be buried there.
See these links for details of the above (though some YI stuff is available only by subscription):
http://www.yorkshireindexers.info/forum/db/burials.php?tabid=40&c=10&id=73044
https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/410433/bailey,-/
https://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/46214/leeds-(lawnswood)-cemetery/
I did wonder if your picture might be a war memorial in Woodhouse Cemetery, but haven't found any pictures of one, if there ever was one. The cemetery is now closed - more info at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodhouse_Cemetery
The Yorkshire Indexers site mentions an address of 16 Banstead Grove. That gets a mention in the comments on a photo at Leodis:
http://www.leodis.net/display.aspx?resourceIdentifier=2010524_170769&DISPLAY=FULL
Finally, since he was serving with a Canadian regiment, I also wondered if it might be a memorial in a Canadian war cemetery. I haven't looked for any pictures, but there's a list of them at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_war_cemeteries
-
His grave info :-
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01n8f/
Malky
Thank you, I've managed to open the link now.
-
Still puzzling over this, though I don't feel I'm getting anywhere much.
Herbert's attestation papers are available on the Canadian National Archives site, and show that he signed up in Winnipeg, but was born in Leeds, and his mother Lydia was living at 6 Midgley View, Woodhouse.
If the story in my family is correct, that might preclude him being named on a cenotaph-type memorial in the UK, though I haven't seen one in Winnipeg that matches.
There seems little doubt that he was buried in Woodhouse, and whether he was exhumed and reburied or not, the memorial at Lawnswood looks like a replacement for a previous grave marker at Woodhouse. But that still doesn't help to identify the memorial in your photo, I'm afraid.
-
arthurk
Sorry, I was sure I'd replied to your post yesterday saying that one of our sons had arrived unexpectedly (2 hours drive) to take me out for an early dinner (to celebrate my birthday last Saturday). We arrived back about 7.15pm which is when I made the quick response to Flattybasher9 and then to you, so I have no idea where that post has gone.
Anyway, what I said was that I would look at the links you gave me today. Unfortunately, there is a problem with the YorkshireIndexers. A message comes up including "Our Hosting Company recently had a power outage. They are currently attempting to fix the problem". So I'll try that again later.
I had already seen the CWGC pages and my half 2nd cousin once removed ::) (Her g.gran was the sister of the elder lady in the photos) has sent me photos of Lawnswood memorial as she recently went to see it.
Thank you for the Woodhouse Cemetery link, I wonder if the monument was there originally. Perhaps I could write to Leeds University to see if they can help.
My only other thought is that I'm not sure the memorial in the photo I've posted shows names on it, which I would normally expect on a WWI monument, but as I can't get the photo any clearer I can't be sure. Also the dome on the top is unusual.
Thanks also for the link to the Canadian War cemeteries.
-
I'm doing a Google search for war memorials with domes ::) but it's like looking for a needle in a haystack as most of the photos show domed structures, rather than this one which is an rectangle with a dome inset in the top of it.
I doubt it would be in Canada, especially as Herbert Bailey was English. Also I cannot see my ancestors travelling to Canada just to visit a monument and lay a wreath prior to 1954 when the eldest lady died aged 78. My guess is she's in her 50s in the photograph, so around the end of WW1.
I think Woodhouse Cemetery seems to be the answer and that the monument was either moved elsewhere or destroyed.
I'll pass this info onto my relative who still lives in Yorkshire, so she will be able to follow things up better than I can from a distance.
Thank you for your help.
-
Arthur - the reports I've read suggest that no bodies were exhumed and that over 100,000 (since the 1800s) are still underneath St George's Field which is now part of Leeds University campus.
www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/the-picturesque-leeds-beauty-spot-is-final-resting-place-for-100-000-people-1-9351071
-
Large file pertaining to him available to download in pdf format from Canadian archives.
https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/personnel-records/Pages/search.aspx
Pension payments, where he served, all that sort of stuff. Great quality images.
Includes hospital records.
-
Another couple of thoughts:
First, this memorial doesn't appear to have the names of individual soldiers on it, but a longer inscription - perhaps commemorating a regiment or the workers in a particular company? The line before the bottom seems to start with "17th". Or, if there were individual names, would the ladies have posed where Herbert's could be clearly seen?
Second, the occasion: given the weather and the dresses, could it have been Herbert's birthday? (13 May according to the Canadian papers)
It's a bit odd about Yorkshire Indexers - they did have problems a while back, but I can get in OK. However, I normally stay logged in there, but after logging out just now I found that the transcription I linked to is for signed in members (or subscribers?) only. I landed on a page which had warnings about a few recent issues, and when I then logged in I got straight to the transcription. In this case, you haven't missed a lot, since it's a transcript of the register entry (image) that Malky linked to.
-
I have went through the 1251 memorial photographs from Francis Frith but cannot find a resemblance in any of them.
Malky
-
Thanks Malky - that was over and above the call of duty!
Thanks Dublin1850 - yes I found that some time ago.
Arthur - it's a shame the photograph isn't clearer. I enlarged it a little and copied it at a higher dpi than it was sent to me but it hasn't made any difference.
By the way, despite what the original idea was it seems St George's Field is not what it is supposed to be. My relative who went to Leeds around October/November last year, to photograph the memorial at Lawnswood went through St George's Field and this is her comment:
It’s rubbish what they say about St George’s Field it’s terrifying I wouldn’t walk alone through it me and Helen (that's her friend who went with her) legged it in and out as fast as we could there were a bunch of drugged and drunk blokes and a strange bloke sat on a bench watching us so we walked a different way only to find we were trapped it was a below ground level bowling green we found a gap in hedgerow and I held it open she squeezed through and then did same for me. Scary place it is like a major thoroughfare for student there are some wrecked tennis courts and allotments on opposite side to university and main road, to other far side there was a large wall after we left we drove all round it and I think the walled area had overgrown shrubs but think I saw gravestones.
No wonder some of the residents who have relatives buried there are kicking up a fuss.
-
:o :o :o
-
Hi Lizzie.
Are you aware of this searchable website?
https://www.iwm.org.uk/memorials
Using the filters should get you close to where you need to be (if not in the bullseye!)
Regards,
Thudders
-
There is also these :-
https://www.leedsww1memorials.com/lostmemorials.htm
https://www.leedsww1memorials.com/leedsmemorials.htm
and
https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/listed-every-single-name-on-long-lost-leeds-ww1-memorial-1-8486040
It's perhaps gone.
Malky
-
There is also these ....
https://www.leedsww1memorials.com/leedsmemorials.htm
....
This one has some interesting links. Have a look at this one:
http://www.leedsww1memorials.com/hunsletalfcooke.htm
It mentions our H Bailey, but as there were 3 H Baileys with a Leeds connection they're not sure which one is referred to here.
-
I see Herbert's regiment was stationed in Seaford, Sussex, so I wondered if there might be some kind of regimental memorial there. However, I haven't found any evidence of one, nor of any other memorial looking like this one.
-
Hi, apologies if I have missed it being mentioned in any of the replies, but I wonder if there is a connection anywhere to the "Green Howards" the badge at the top of the memorial panel looks very much like the regiment badge.
Frank.
https://www.cultmancollectables.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=3047
-
There may be something in this, Frank.
Since we hadn't found any memorial relating to Herbert that looks like this one, it had crossed my mind that it might actually relate to some other family member - did Edith have a brother, for instance?
-
Thank you for all your replies since yesterday afternoon. I'll go through them. I did wonder what that badge was at the top of the monument, but Edie was an only child and her mother's brother was a fisherman lost at sea on 17 Feb 1906 off the South West Coast of Iceland, near to Keflavik.
The older one also had 2 uncles who lived well into adulthood, one a blacksmith the other a gardener. I doubt either of those 2 joined the Green Howards being born 1853 and 1856 I would think they would have been too old to fight in WWI.
I'll get back to you later when I've gone through all your comments.
-
This one has some interesting links. Have a look at this one:
http://www.leedsww1memorials.com/hunsletalfcooke.htm
It mentions our H Bailey, but as there were 3 H Baileys with a Leeds connection they're not sure which one is referred to here.
Arthur - Herbert's attestation papers show he was a wireworker, so I don't think he'd work in a Printers, so I guess that's not the right one. I did wonder if the monument was in Sussex but, like you, I've not found any reference to one there. One of my son's ex partners lives in Sussex so I could always send her a copy of the photo to see if she's seen it anywhere. She lives about 18 miles from Seaford and I know they often go to the beach in the summer.
Frank - looking at the Green Howards regimental badge, to me it doesn't look the same as the one on the memorial. The one on the memorial seems to be more curved at the bottom, whereas the Green Howards badge has two straight pieces coming together with a flower (Yorkshire Rose?) at the bottom.
Malky - thank you for the links, I've saved them both. The 2nd one is easier to search, but I've not found the monument yet Herbert's name is not on the list of men on the long lost Leeds WWI memorial. I wonder if the memorial was a plaque rather than a stone monument as the report does say having been lost for many years it was then passed on to another church. You couldn't pass on a stone monument.
The other possibility, of course, is that the memorial has nothing to do with my ancestors. The photo looks staged - for a newspaper or something - with the women "placed" by the monument and the young boys leaning against the side of it. That is not how you would take a photo of a monument which had the name of your loved on on it. Most non photographers would just have had the women standing at the side of the monument. I'll check newspaper archives in case there is something there. Going on the clothing of the women, they look as though they are wearing 1920s clothes, look at the hat and low waist on the older woman standing.
-
I'm not sure if it helps much, but there's an index of names on Leeds war memorials at
https://www.leeds.gov.uk/docs/Index%20of%20names%20on%20Leeds%20War%20Memorials.xls
-
Thanks Arthur - it basically just points us to Lawnswood. I doubt his name would be on Leeds Parish monument - as he was Methodist - at least he married in United Methodist Church, Roundhay Road, Leeds on 28 November 1915. I can't find a baptism for Edith (his wife) but her mother and siblings were all baptised C of E.
-
Hi LizzieW, yes you may well be correct, on further inspection it looks more like a "Maltese" style cross, similar to a "Rifles" badge :-\
Frank :)
-
Hi all, I think the "17th" has to be significant as I believe Arthurk said, isn't that more specific than a war memorial normally is? Is it a particular battle if it states a specific date? Or could it be that it's not a war memorial, I know it looks like one but it doesn't look like the first date is 1914 to me? But my eyes are rubbish!
-
I don't know where, but I would have a guess at when - Palm Sunday.
-
From the first page of this topic:
He actually enlisted with the Canadian Over-Seas Expeditionary Force in July 1915 but at the time he gave his next of kin as his mother who lived in Leeds. He had returned to England by November 1915 and it seems he stayed in the UK in the Manitoba Regiment Depot in Sussex until August 1917 when he was transferred to 18th Reserve Battalion and sent to France. By September 1918 he was in Aden where he was shot in the face and returned to England. He died in The Manor (County of London) War Hospital London about 4 weeks later.
So I don't know what battle it would it would commemorate. Perhaps it's something to do with the 18th Reserve Battalion whoever they were. With the timing being in the 1920s, I'm assuming that the memorial is in Britain or perhaps the near continent at the most. I can't see the ladies travelling far in those days - and certainly not to Aden for instance where he was shot.
Unfortunately, I haven't got the original photograph. My relative did say she'd try to make it clearer but whether she's actually got the photograph or it's a newspaper cutting I have no idea. I'll get back to her next week, she's got problems looking after elderly relatives this week, alzheimers, broken bones etc. and she's always running around after them whilst looking after a husband who's not well either.
-
Good evening,
This is a good site; http://www.roll-of-honour.com/
John915
-
Thank you John, I'll look through that site.
-
Lizzie, if I were you, i would fire off an e-mail with the picture attached to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission on a general enquiry to see if their people recognise it. You never know.
Regards
Malky
-
Thanks Malky. I'll contact my half cousin etc to see if she's got the original. If so she can send an email to CWGC. I also wondered if she just put it up on Facebook (if she's got an account) to see if anyone on there can recognise it. Fortunately, the two ladies are deceased and there are no direct descendants. I don't know about the children on the photo but I'm guessing if the photo was taken in the mid 1920s, if they are alive they will be very old and probably unrecognizable to anyone.
-
Good evening,
Definately not Seaford, I know that one. War memorials, whether in a church yard or else where usually had the names irrespective of denomination or religous views. Many names appear on more than one memorial.
With the short list of names, unless there are more on the reverse, I would go for a smaller place than Leeds itself. Dates are definately 1914 1918.
John915
-
Anyone had any thoughts on whether that's a date starting the 17th or a regiment/battalion?
-
Oh my god I've found it!! It's the original Queen Victoria's Rifles Memorial. It was on the top of hill 60 near ypres, but it was destroyed by the Germans in 1940.
Can't post photos from my iPad, but I can post the link.
http://www.ww1battlefields.co.uk/flanders/hill-60/
-
Oh my god I've found it!! It's the original Queen Victoria's Rifles Memorial. It was on the top of hill 60 near ypres, but it was destroyed by the Germans in 1940.
Can't post photos from my iPad, but I can post the link.
http://www.ww1battlefields.co.uk/flanders/hill-60/
Great find Kevwood !!! Well done you 8) 8) 8)
So it was a "Rifles" badge................... (Reply number 30)
Frankj.
-
I have been following this thread.
Well done Kevwood. What a great find - I share your excitement :)
Heywood
-
Kevwood - that's a miracle, thank you very much.
I have no idea why my ancestors would be photographed by that monument, Herbert Bailey certainly wasn't in the Queen Victoria Rifles and he only went to France in late 1917 with the 18th Reserve Battalion before going to Aden where he was shot. Do you know if it was usual for people from the UK to go to France in the 1920s to look at graves, like we do today?
I'll have to research the Rifles to see if there are any names I recognise amongst the 180 casualties - I doubt there were any officers in my family. The only thing I can think of at the moment is that the lady standing in the photograph married a widower and he had 5 sons, so I wonder if one of them is commemorated on the memorial. I'll check on CWGC tomorrow (well later today) to see if any of their names are listed.
Thank you once again.
-
Just glad I could help, there's some info here.
https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/community/205
Kev.
-
Kev - Many thanks for the link. I don't recognise any of the names but I've sent the link to my relative to see if she or any of her close relatives recognise any of the names. Unfortunately, anyone who could have told us why the two women were at that monument have long since died.
It seems the QVR were a London territorial army originally and, as far as I know, the only connection to London is my mysterious g.grandfather who would have been the older woman's stepfather. He certainly didn't fight in WWI, too old by then and, in any case he had moved to Hull by the 1880s.
-
Well done, Kev.
Finding why they were there could be tricky. I have references in family letters to people visiting a cousin's or uncle's grave while they were in France, so you might need to look a bit wider to find a match.
Also, I see from the Wikipedia article about Hill 60 that there was a lot of action in that area involving a variety of regiments, so is it possible that their person of interest was in one of these, but this is where they happened to have their photo taken?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_60_(Ypres)
-
This is a very interesting paper on battlefield tourism, could've just been a holiday!
http://www.academia.edu/6613139/Battlefields_as_tourist_attractions_Britons_traveling_to_the_Ypres_Salient_since_1919
-
Arthur - we know the history of these 2 women and their families very well - in fact I even met them when I was younger, and as far as we can see no-one on that side of the family had any connection to WWI. The only war dead I've found so far have been on my father's paternal side of the family, and these two ladies are from the maternal side.
There is one avenue I can research. The elder lady had a brother who drowned at sea in 1906 (mentioned in an earlier post), but he had 3 sons born 1899, 1902 and 1905, but only the eldest would have been old enough to have been killed in 1915 - and he would only have been 16 at the time. It's possible that they were casualties later in the war and the two ladies were just visiting their graves/memorials.
Of the elder lady's siters, one was childless, one died aged 2 and the other one is the g.gran of the person who sent me the photo, so if it was any. She had 2 sons, one the grandfather of the person who sent me the photo and another one. However, I'm sure my distant relative would have known if her grandfather's brother had been killed in WWI.
It really is a mystery.
-
Kev - I think you are probably right. Bearing in mind that the elder lady was a widow probably in her 50s in the photograph (her husband killed himself in 1910 when she was 44) and her only child was the other woman in the photograph who, herself, was childless and a widow, they would be free to travel wherever they wanted without any ties and, presumably had the money to travel.
Also I still think the women have been placed in those positions and the small boys for the photograph, perhaps for a newspaper or similar.
-
Lizzie, according to ancestry one of the sons, of her brother, John William Alden died in 1918, could be the link?
-
Yep, killed France and Flanders, 15th April 1918, 5th battalion, Lincolnshire Regiment.
-
Pretty certain that's the connection, think he may have been part of the battalion that secured hill60. His regiment definitely was.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_Battalion,_Lincolnshire_Regiment
-
I'm loving this thread..............
Frank.
-
Read a bit more on him, he was part of the 2/5th battalion when he died and that Wikipedia page pretty much tells you what happened on the day he died. :'(
-
According to CWGC, John William Alden was son of Mrs. Lena H. Farniss, of 3, Emily's Terrace, Massey St., St. George's Rd., Hull:
https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/873770/alden,-john-william/
-
Yep that's correct, she remarried in 1913, Eleanor (Lena) Harriett Burns, formally Alden then Farniss.
-
Oh you are clever on here. Of course that must be the reason the two ladies went to Ypres. John William was the eldest son of John Frederick W Alden and Lena H Alden (nee Burns) who re-married in 1913 after her husband's death.
Of course, I've not researched many of the grandchildren of my g.gran and her first husband. I have so many side lines to research and this particular branch of my tree has so many "twigs" to research and John William Alden was my half 1st cousin once removed. ::)
My half 2nd cousin once removed will be pleased we've solved the puzzle.
Sadly, like my g.uncle's records (he died at Cambrai in 1917), John William Alden's WWI records do not appear to have survived.
-
Read a bit more on him, he was part of the 2/5th battalion when he died and that Wikipedia page pretty much tells you what happened on the day he died. :'(
Where did you read more about him? There's no record on Ancestry.
-
Yes there is, on there four times, under just searching his name and clicking military, also his brother Ernest William was in the merchant navy at the end of the war. Four military records for John William Alden and then on the cwgc site he's also down as 2/5th battalion. On the Wikipedia page it tells you what happened to them on the day he died.
-
Lizzie, there's register of soldiers effects, soldiers died in the Great War, then two medal records for him.
-
Thanks Kev. What I meant was there
was oops, were no Attestation Papers. Gone the same way as my g.uncle's I guess during WW2.
I ought to be able to find John W Alden I find my g.uncle on the register of soldiers effects. I'll look for Ernest William too - makes sense for him to be in the merchant navy like his dad and others in the family who were seamen.
-
Yeah no attestation papers, some of the brilliant military guys on here might be able to help with John William if you post a thread about him. There's another Ernest William Alden from the marine corps not the merchant navy, so watch out for him ::)
-
Thanks Kev, I'll see what my distant relative wants to do, after all he was her 1st cousin twice removed so she may think the information you and Arthur have found is more than enough. Originally, all she wanted to know was, where was the monument. I'm going to call this topic complete now.
Thank you to everyone who has had input into the topic.