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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Surrey => Topic started by: eaasland on Friday 11 January 19 15:34 GMT (UK)
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Hi there,
After having tried for a while now, and mainly due to my limited knowledge of Southwark St Olave Parish, I was hoping that someone with better knowledge of the area than I might be able to help me track down a man named John William Banks, prior to 1842. On July 24, 1842, he marries "Anne Gardner" in Saint Dunstan's Church, District of Stepney, Tower Hamlets. He is recorded as a "traveller" and living at 13 Whitehall Street. She is living at 4 Sidney Street. His father is John Banks, a lighterman, while her father, Joseph Gardner, is also a lighterman. I found out that his middle name is William when I got hold of the birth registration for his daughter, Annie Banks (b. 7 Aug 1842, in Blackfriars).
I was hoping to find a baptism record (or any other document) to confirm the name of his father and to discover the name of his mother.
Later records of John William Banks show his as a "mercantile clerk" or "dock clerk" or "dock company clerk" or "scrivener".
Thank you so much in advance for any leads.
Erik
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Have you found him in 1841 anywhere?
There is this Banks father with inferred father John in St Olave.
John Banks 50
Jno 20
Geo 8
Chas 14 months
Sarah 40
Hannah 13
Emma 10
Sophia 5
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Hi, the few I have found are not lightermen, but shoemakers. Unfortunately, I have not found a John Banks in the 1841 census who occupation is that of "lighterman".
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Hi your opening post, are we looking for John or James William Banks b c 1820?
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James William Banks, b. abt 1820. His marriage registration states that he was "full age" at time of marriage, so at least 21 years old, so about 1820, maybe born even a bit earlier.
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might be able to help me track down a man named James William Banks, prior to 1842. On July 24, 1842, he marries "Anne Gardner" in Saint Dunstan's Church, District of Stepney, Tower Hamlets. He is recorded as a "traveller" and living at 13 Whitehall Street.
The marriage of Ann Gardner was to John Banks
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Hi in 1851 with Ann & family he is John Banks 30 b Southwark occ Scrivener in Shadwell
Census ref HO107/1550/404/5
Keyboard86
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Hi, sorry, that was a mistake on my part. It is John William Banks who marries Ann Gardner in 1842. It is John William Banks (b. abt 1820) that I am looking for. His father is John Banks and a lighterman.
Thank you.
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John Banks, the father, is proving to be very elusive.
According to Thames Watermen & Lightermen 1688-2010 there were only two John Banks in the possible time frame:
John James Samuel Banks bc1800. (He married in 1826 and had a son named John in 1830. They’re together in 1851. So not him):
John Banks bc1781. (This one lived, and had at least 5 children in close proximity to Southwark from 1817-1826. But no son named John)
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Hi Lily,
Thanks so much. That's what I found. I was hoping to home in on a baptism record, but I've had no luck. Thanks for taking the time to look, much appreciated.
Erik
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Hi where were Ann Banks b c 1818 and Frances Sarah b 1851 in 1871, I can see Frances married Walter Charles Cromarty 23rd November 1871 both of Atley Street, Poplar where her married brother Joseph John Banks was living in 1871?
John Banks b c 1820 was a married/Lodger occ Dock Clerk in Mile End Old Town in 1871?
Census ref RG10/562/119/29
Keyboard86
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Hi, I haven't found Ann Banks (b c 1818) and her daughter, Frances Sarah (b 1851) in the 1871 census yet. I did find John Banks (b c 1820) as a married lodger and Dock Clerk in Mile End Old Town in 1871. That is indeed as far as I know the same John William Banks whose baptism record (or any other document for that matter) I'm searching for. Even though Frances Sarah hasn't been found in the 1871 census (yet) she does show up in November 1871 (as you have found) when she marries Walter Charles Cromarty on the 23rd.
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There is another of John and Ann's children, Alfred George Banks (b 24 May 1855), who I think I have found in the 1871 census. He is on board a naval ship with the rank of "Boy 2nd Class" located in the District of Boscawen, Isle Portland, Dorset. It sounds like he's starting a career in the navy.
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Joseph John is baptised in St Paul, Shadwell 23 Nov 1851 (born 1844) -parents John & Ann (no middle names) GRO confirms birth mmn Gardner with names as John Joseph George.
They did not seem to be constant with names as Frances Sarah's birth was registered as Frances Margaret. (March qtr 1850) ::)
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Hi Rosie, thank you. Yes, I see her as Frances "Sarah" and Frances "Margaret". Also, I think she went by "Fanny". I've ordered the birth registration for all of John and Ann's children. I ordered a while ago Ann Bank's birth registration (7 Aug 1843), which is how I discovered her father's middle name (have attached it here).
Thank you.
Erik
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Hi again, John William Banks occ Clerk seems to drop the middle initial on at least two marriages I believe when he witnessed the marriages:-
Annie Banks 23 Married James Steel 5th May 1867 St Peter, M E O T
Keyboard86
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I agree, not sure why he tends to drop the name. When I get the birth registrations for the other children I'll see if he continues to use his middle name William. So, the earliest I can place him with "proof" (so to speak) is Ann Banks birth registration which places him at 37 John Street; other than of course his marriage certificate which places him at 13 Whitehall and records his occupation a "traveller", and of course his father, John Banks, the lighterman.
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There is always the possibility he is illegitimate and that he has made up his fathers name/occupation
He has the same first name as John and same occupation as Ann's father. He would not have had to prove any of it. :-\
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There is always the possibility he is illegitimate and that he has made up his fathers name/occupation
He has the same first name as John and same occupation as Ann's father. He would not have had to prove any of it. :-\
Yes, sadly, I hope that that is not the case. I have noticed that the Gardner family (with Ann' father Joseph Gardner also a lighterman) also lived on John Street (supposedly now Alaska Street, off Waterloo). My assumption of course is that is how John and Ann met (either through their fathers as lightermen or because they lived on the same street, or both).
Thanks everyone for your help, very much appreciate your help in finding this needle in a haystack!
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Hi again, took another route, is their any record of a Joseph Gardner occ Lighterman the father of Ann Gardner b c 1820 as the only mention I could locate was the marriage of a Joseph Gardner occ Lighterman Father Joseph occ Lighterman 21st July 1849 All Saints, Rotherhithe to Charlotte Looker.
1851 HO107/1583/158/44
Following first child George Joseph Gardner b c 1850 Rotherhithe leads to odd results?
Keyboard86
PS can locate baptisms for a Joseph b 3rd July 1812 and Edwin born 30th October 1810 who where baptised 3rd July 1814 St Mary Rotherhithe Father Joseph Gardner occ Lighterman Mother Mary address Princes Street.
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Is their any record of a Joseph Gardner occ Lighterman the father of Ann Gardner b c 1820
Hi, I have Joseph Gardner occ lighterman (b. abt 1790) marrying Francis (Scott?) about 1811. In 1841, he is a lighterman living on Charles Street in Bermondsey. He has an apprentice, Charles Tupper, living with them and the children are:
Joseph Gardiner 52 1789 Surrey (Sr)
Joseph Gardiner 30 1811 Surrey (Jr)
Charles Tupper 17 1824 Surrey (apprentice lighterman)
Francis Gardner 50 1791 Surrey (Sr's wife)
Ann Gardner 23 1818 Surrey (wife of John William Banks, b. abt 1820)
Rebecca Gardner 7 1834 Surrey (Ann's sister?)
Frances Gardner 9 1832 Surrey (Ann's sister?)
Elizabeth Scott 72 1769 Surrey (Francis's mother?)
I cannot prove that the Ann above is "my" Ann, at least not yet.
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I found this from the Lightermen Records:
First name(s) Joseph Jnr
Last name Gardner
Birth year -
Place Horsleydown
Year 1830
Bound date 12 Aug 1830
Master's first name(s) Joseph
Master's last name Gardner Snr.
Where from notes Horsleydown
Source
Binding Records 1692-1949
Record set Thames Watermen & Lightermen 1688-2010
Category Education & work
Subcategory Occupations
Collections from England, Great Britain
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Hi again, the baptism of Rebecca Gardner was born 15th February 1834 baptised 14th March 1834 Father Joseph occ Lighterman Mother Frances address John St.
Rebecca & Frances b 1832 are in Kent in 1851 HO107/1618/186/19 Rebecca, HO107/1618/184/15 Frances.
Keyboard86
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Thank you, that's another step forward. More to build on at least.
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Hi all
I am also researching John William Banks (1787-1868) and I have posted another Rootschat message under James Cooper Banks. I received a reply as to his address in Mill Street Bermondsey in 1841 and his occupation was that of a waterman; maybe this is a connecting factor to the John Banks b, 21 Feb 1821 who married Ann Gardner, the daughter of a waterman, the original post of this thread.
I am working on a theory that shoemaker John William Banks, middle name of William from a daughter's marriage, and formerly bap 21 Oct 1787 East Ham Essex, may have had three marriages and believe it or not, to three different brides named Sarah.
I believe that he may have finished his apprenticeship in 1807. James Cooper Banks was bp. James Cooper Banks 15 Nov 1807 Bermondsey. One month later, Henry Banks, his brother, married Ann Rugg 28 Dec 1807 Rotherhithe. The witnesses were John Banks and Richard Cooper.
John Banks married another Sarah (maybe Sarah Easter 1816) and they bap a son Samuel Cooper Banks on 13 Apr 1817 back in his village church of St. Mary East Ham and on the same day St. Mary in Bermondsey.
The Sarah Elizabeth Unknown who is the mother of the above John Banks b 21 Feb 1821 was too young (b c1800) and she had 7 chn in St. Olave with John William Banks, the cordwainer/shoemaker.
Keith