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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: --Jon-- on Saturday 12 January 19 15:26 GMT (UK)
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This picture is believed to be of my distant cousins Henry Robinson and John Jackson. The only two survivors from the crew of the ill-fated 'Eliza Fernley` and `Laura Janet` Lancashire Lifeboats, capsized 10 December, 1886.
My 3x great grandfather Ralph Peters was deputy coxswain of the Eliza Fernley.
His son Benjamin along with 25 other local lifeboat-men also lost their lives on the same fateful rescue mission.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southport_and_St_Anne%27s_lifeboats_disaster#
Any help possible would be much appreciated.
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My try.
Peter
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Be aware that this is an 1850's/60's ambrotype so around 20-25 years prior to the disaster.
In 1886 they would have been in their 50's/60's.
That should give you an idea if it's them.
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Glad you said that Jim because I had doubts as to whether would fit when I saw this last night and decided to leave for you :D
Carol
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Thank you for your time and quality work Mcgroger.
Thanks Jim, I understand your reasoning but I'm not so sure the dating of process can be so precise.
I've read that this style continued to be used for many years after 1860.
The original of this image has been donated and is on display at the Atkinson Museum with other artifacts connected to the tragedy.
In the time since I donated to the museum I've learnt that because the image was a negative on glass, it could possibly of been used as a type of magic lantern slide.
What I really hope to achieve eventually is copying the clearest image possible to glass or perspex so I can recreate the victorian magic.
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Ambrotypes were superseded by the CdeV in 1858 & became obsolete by the mid 1860's.
By nature of the process used ambrotypes are in reverse as the glass was the medium used (the glass was covered in a light sensitive emulsion) making them positives rather than negatives (which were then superimposed onto light sensitive paper putting them the right way round) so what you see is a mirror image.
Definitely within the date range I gave.
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I agree with Jim....the clothing fits the era too.
Carol
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As Jim has pointed out, the photograph is a reverse image, so I have flipped it for you to show how it would have been taken,
Pat
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This is the original photo without the frame
Pat
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Their coat buttons are fastened the wrong way now aren't they Pat?
Carol
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Yes Carol, their buttons were the wrong way round ::). I have now flipped this one and cleaned it up a bit.
Pat
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Hi Jon, After a close look at your Ambrotype I would have to agree with Carol
and Jim that the subjects of the picture may not be the surviving lifeboatmen of the
'Eliza Fernley' Have read the link describing the disaster and the crew of the lifeboats
were "fishermen by trade". The hand of the young man draped on the shoulder appears
well groomed and not the hand of a hard working fisherman. The clothing too does not
appear typical with cravat type ties with pins and shiny boots. Not the type of clothing
you would expect fishermen to wear even for 'Sunday best'. Just an opinion, I am not
an expert, but I feel this is not an image of 2 fishermen.
Jen.
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Thank you all for your work, time and thoughts.
I'm glad I did say believed to be because I realise we cannot be sure.
That is the way it is displayed in Southport.
John Jackson is my 2nd cousin and Henry Robinson is my 8th cousin, both 4x removed.
Soon after the tragedy both men were given large payouts from a disaster fund raised for the families of the deceased.
Both bought houses on the same road as my 3x great grandma Alice (Ralph Peters widow).
They also received the equivalent of an average weekly wage paid for life.
They were not poor fishermen in 1890.
Our ancestors were poor and are recorded as fishing the same coastline for centuries.
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I feel very lucky to of found my link back to these proud old fishing families. They have already been well researched by some of their outstanding local historians and genealogists.
I think their work on our shared history is amazing and I thank them sincerely.
As for the poor fishermen of old, yes they were considered poor by many standards. But it would appear on average they had a good life expectancy, if they didn't drown young.
Many of my great grandmother's and great aunts are recorded as living well into their 80's and 90's during times of much shorter life expectancy in the northern towns and cities.
I've read that fact was a big part in the advertising draw to the craze for sea-bathing during Georgian times. They believed it could have almost magical properties.
Ironically, I believe, it was that draw to the sea from the city and rush of wealth to the area that eventually pushed the ancient self sufficient fishing families from their homes beside the dunes.
Their tiny hamlets of South-Haws and Haws-Side were lost as the town of Southport was born and grew around them. Over the course of just a few decades almost all of the local fishermen were moved from their cottages into terrace houses well away from the prime seafront location.
My family moved to Boundary St.
I've added this link to Alice Peters (nee Wright) on a website I trust incase anyone is interested
Credit to
http://www.briangriffiths.co.uk/tng/getperson.php?personID=I16041&tree=BG_TREE
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Hello Jon, After reading your informative posts today (#12,13) I looked again online and came
across some photos of John Jackson and Henry Robinson most likely taken after the
tragedy in 1886. The library of nineteenth-century photography has 2 portraits in
rescue clothing and the Southport offshore rescue trust has 2 photos. Perhaps a
R'chatter with more skills can provide a link to these photos.
Looking at these photos closely I will amend my previous comments re your Ambrotype.
I think there are enough similarities in the mature photos to suggest that the Ambrotype
picture could in fact be John Jackson and Henry Robinson. The hand of John Jackson on
the right of your picture is very similar to the hand in the portrait in rescue clothing.
Perhaps if you amended the date of 1890 in your post on Wikimedia to the dates
suggested by Jim you would be close to the date when that portrait was taken. A look
at the birthdates for John Jackson and Henry Robinson would confirm whether the young
men in your Ambrotype could be them. They appear to be in their late 20's, early 30's.
Birthdates of late 1820's to early 1830's might be about right. They appear to be in their
50's in the mature photos.
Regards,
Jen.
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Thank you Jen for taking the time to look again.
I apologise for not posting more information already.
The dating makes for a mystery.
John Jackson 1851-1922
Henry Robinson 1859-1938
Photo dating and believed identification can not possibly both be right so I'm puzzled.
Others have amazingly noticed the possible missing finger clue but I'm not sure how much can be read into that.
I believe it was common for fishermen to lose a finger, or at least for it to look that way in photos.
I wonder if I maybe have a simple explanation, or at least a good theory to explain the missing fingers. A problem that sadly runs in my family. I don't think it's a fishing injury.
My grandfather worked in insurance but he still lost the fingers.
Dupuytren's contracture, aka Viking Disease.
https://thisisdupuytrens.com/?gclid=Cj0KCQiAg_HhBRDNARIsAGHLV53x2AOuVGcOdf1aDP_drzdhNhmCZy1FB-h1BJpyv1DonAWJMUJJ8soaAt6mEALw_wcB
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I'm puzzled too Jon. The d.o.b. for the two men indicate John Jackson was 35 in 1886 and Henry
Robinson 27, much the same ages as the young men in the Ambrotype ??? It would be interesting
to know when the more mature photos on the Library of nineteenth-century photography website
were taken, presumably before 1900. Possibly there were newspaper reports with photographs which featured the two men for comparison.
I don't see any evidence of missing fingers, more a shortening of the fingers in the nail area on both men.
Jen.