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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: Heather Walsh on Sunday 13 January 19 08:49 GMT (UK)

Title: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: Heather Walsh on Sunday 13 January 19 08:49 GMT (UK)
Hello everyone, first of all I am not a new member, I had to start a new account with rootschat though because my last computer died and I had to make a new account. My apologies for this.... 
I am trying to find information on this fellow, any information at all.  All I have is a parish record from SP that says the following.   Church yard dues....CALLIGAN JOHN  1834   Shotts iron works  age 40 March 13....2'10.    Now before I viewed the actual record the search said death 1854, but I assume just an error as actual record says 1834...….I continued then looking for John on other SP records but drew a blank...…..if anyone could help find him anywhere else, it will be greatly appreciated.... This is the only info I have on him...…..by dates and age given on this record he looks to have been born around 1794?        thank you everyone
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: Creasegirl on Sunday 13 January 19 09:15 GMT (UK)
You won't find birth certificates but would need to use church records for baptisms and marriages etc.  Have a look at Scotland people but as spellings sometimes change widen your search terms eg call*
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: ColC on Sunday 13 January 19 10:54 GMT (UK)
There are 3 births in Ayrshire & 1 in Lanarkshire for the name using fuzzy matching but none seem likely. However there are several marriages including below in Shotts. Maybe John was born in Ireland?

COLLIGAN   JOHN    TO MARGARET KIRK   16/04/1820   Shotts

CALLIGAN   JOHN TO    CATHERINE DIVINE   11/12/1853   Shotts

Colin
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: ColC on Sunday 13 January 19 11:32 GMT (UK)
Records on SP birth record fron A…y, which do not add up.
COLLIGAN   JAMES   JOHN COLLIGAN/MARGARET KIRK    B 14/12/1823   Bap.  12/01/1824   Shotts
COLLIGAN   ELEANOR   JOHN COLLIGAN/MARGARET KIRK    B 16/07/1820   Bap.  25/08/1820   Shotts
COLLIGAN   MARGARET   JOHN COLLIGAN/MARGARET KIRK B 14/06/1818   Bap. 07/06/1820   Shotts

Colin
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: Heather Walsh on Sunday 13 January 19 11:50 GMT (UK)
thank you colin
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: Forfarian on Sunday 13 January 19 11:57 GMT (UK)
I take it that you looked at the original record on SP? If the index is wrong you should tell SP so they can correct it.
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: Creasegirl on Sunday 13 January 19 12:05 GMT (UK)
They might have had a child before getting married though if that what you meaning by records not adding up.
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: ColC on Sunday 13 January 19 12:34 GMT (UK)
They might have had a child before getting married though if that what you meaning by records not adding up.

Whilst I realise that, it seemed a bit strange to have two separate baptisms so near in date?

Colin
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: Creasegirl on Sunday 13 January 19 12:50 GMT (UK)
Could be they just moved to area or maybe church only did so many a day or costs involved or father away working and only day free.  Maybe others might know reasons
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: Creasegirl on Sunday 13 January 19 12:57 GMT (UK)
Found this link saying that there were costs for baptisms and that sometimes they were only done when families had enough money which could be years after birth http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/forum/topic10206.html
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: Forfarian on Sunday 13 January 19 13:10 GMT (UK)
No point in speculating. Take a look at the original documents on Scotland's People and see what they tell you. Apart from the first birth being before the marriage, and the second one only just after it, there's nothing inconsistent about them.

If this is the right John C*l*g*n, I wonder if his wife might have applied to the parish for help to support her family after his death? Might there be something in the Shotts Kirk Session records?
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: Heather Walsh on Sunday 13 January 19 13:12 GMT (UK)
john died 1834, so if he was the john colligan married to Margaret kirk, I haven't found them in the 1841 census, his widow and children I mean, all the children old enough to be married by then anyway,,,,,,,and Margaret herself would most likely have remarried too...……...never mind, I think impossible to go any further there.
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: Forfarian on Sunday 13 January 19 15:07 GMT (UK)
Found this link saying that there were costs for baptisms and that sometimes they were only done when families had enough money which could be years after birth
That may be true in England or elsewhere, but it only applied for a few years in Scotland, not including the period you are interested in.

The Stamp Duty Act of 1783 (23 Geo III c 67) introduced a fee of three pence on ‘the registry of burials, marriages, baptisms and christenings’ with a penalty of five pounds for those who refused to pay - it was repealed in 1794, no doubt because the authorities realised that the fee was deterring people from having their children's baptisms recorded in the parish registers at all.

Most parishes did charge a fee for proclamation of banns, on the grounds that people did not choose to be born or to died, but they could choose whether or not to marry. The fees were very variable, and even in the same parish different amounts were charged according to people's ability to pay. The money went into the parish poor fund.

There were also charges for the use of the mortcloth, which was a cloth draped over the coffin during the funeral. Some parishes had several mortcloths, and charged higher fees for the 'best' mortcloth than they did for the ordinary one.
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: mosstrooper on Thursday 17 January 19 20:42 GMT (UK)
Heather, I served my Apprenticeship in Shotts Iron Works so quite familiar with the area. If your John died in the period you mention he most likely was buried in Kirk O' Shotts graveyard which is not actually in Shotts but in Salsburgh right next to the B7066 road. There are records for this Yard, you can start here. :-   http://www.salsburghheritagegroup.co.uk/4.html
There are a lot of Pauper burials in unmarked graves and there were no rich folk in Shotts.

James.
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: Heather Walsh on Friday 18 January 19 00:40 GMT (UK)
thank you James
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: Rosinish on Friday 18 January 19 01:15 GMT (UK)
"Church yard dues....CALLIGAN JOHN  1834   Shotts iron works  age 40 March 13....2'10."

CALLIGAN JOHN
-----
40
13/03/1854
655/50 576 Shotts

Can you tell us how you arrived at John?

Did he have children & if so, what were their names in order as this can sometimes be a clue to parents/g parents?

Do you have any marriages/deaths/census' for children to help with where/when born?

Do you know the above is your John & not someone else with so little details to go on or are you just trying to establish whether or not he is?

Annie


Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: Annette7 on Friday 18 January 19 01:17 GMT (UK)
I've just looked at that record on SP and I would say it is indeed 1854 as they list it and not 1834 as you seem to think.  The writer wrote their '5's' in the same fashion - instances of 3's on the page are quite different.

Annette 
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: Rosinish on Friday 18 January 19 01:38 GMT (UK)
I've just looked at that record on SP and I would say it is indeed 1854

Annette, is there anything else to say where in Shotts or what church or anything on other entries with more detail to help in any way, very short on info?

Annie

Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: Annette7 on Friday 18 January 19 01:40 GMT (UK)
I've just checked on a 5 year old Agnes Fleming, dau. of William Fleming who is 3rd. down on the page.   Agnes Cullen Fleming, born 23/10/1848 Shotts, dau. of William Fleming and Helen Cullen.  In 1851 they are living with the Cullen family in Shotts with 2 year old Agnes.  She is not with the family in 1861.

Hope this convinces you that the year is indeed 1854 and not 1834.

Annette
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: Annette7 on Friday 18 January 19 01:45 GMT (UK)
Rosinish, the page is simply headed 'Church Yard Dues' 1854 and SP simply list it as 'Shotts'.

Just says John Calligan, Labourer, Shotts Works, aged 40 years.

As I've stated, the year is definitely 1854.

Annette
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: Rosinish on Friday 18 January 19 01:58 GMT (UK)
I checked Shotts VRs 1855 & no C*l*g*n i.e. possibly too soon after death for a wife or other to be listed?

Annie
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: Heather Walsh on Friday 18 January 19 10:06 GMT (UK)
so sorry but I am confused,...…..so did he die in 1834 or 1854?  and in answer to an earlier question I am trying to find a match for john colligan married to the Margaret kirk, married 1820 shotts......as I can find no trace of them anywhere, I thought I would try different surname spellings in that time frame for john...…...john colligan and Margaret kirk had children, Margaret 1818, Eleanor, 1820, james 1823.....Margaret had a daughter mary nichol born about 1815.....this all centred at shotts iron works...….. why I cant find a trace of them who knows, maybe john died and Margaret remarried? maybe they left the country, but so far can find anything on that, that matches...…….
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: Annette7 on Friday 18 January 19 10:10 GMT (UK)
As I've said, this John Calligan died 1854 aged 40 so born circa 1814.

Annette
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: Heather Walsh on Friday 18 January 19 10:17 GMT (UK)
Thank you
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: Annette7 on Friday 18 January 19 10:38 GMT (UK)
How did you get to John and Margaret - presumably from one of their children?   If so, where did this person end up?

Annette
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: Heather Walsh on Friday 18 January 19 10:46 GMT (UK)
john and Margaret are in our family bible with Margaret born 1818 it said married in shotts 1820.....so I found their marriage and other children on scotlands people
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: Heather Walsh on Friday 18 January 19 10:47 GMT (UK)
john is my 4x great uncle
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: Heather Walsh on Friday 18 January 19 10:50 GMT (UK)
sorry, their child Margaret born 1818...….john and Margaret married 1820...…..
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 18 January 19 11:07 GMT (UK)
I checked Shotts VRs 1855 & no C*l*g*n i.e. possibly too soon after death for a wife or other to be listed?
Far too soon for the tenant or occupier to be listed, I think. In the earliest censuses, they only listed houses individually if they were over a certain annual value. In the 1855 census of Shotts there are 78 groups of 'houses'  listed, and that doesn't necessarily include cottarhouses on a farm. You'd need to look at the originals to see if they even tell you how many houses were in a particular group, but I think all you get is the total annual value of all the houses in the group.

You can probably tell that it's a very long time since I bothered to look at an 1855 VR, since I know they are unlikely to tell me what I want to know. ;)
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: Annette7 on Friday 18 January 19 17:17 GMT (UK)
When/where and to whom did Margaret b.1818 marry?   Where did she end up?

Seems strange not to find any of them in 1841 or 1851.

Annette
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: Heather Walsh on Saturday 19 January 19 00:07 GMT (UK)
I cannot find a trace of any of the family at all. Not the parents, john colligan and Margaret kirk, their children, Margaret 1818, Eleanor 1820, James 1823, not a marriage or a death or a census anywhere. I also cant find them travelling anywhere either, its like they just disappeared.   
Title: Re: CALLIGAN help please
Post by: Heather Walsh on Saturday 19 January 19 00:17 GMT (UK)
Also many years back on scotlands people there was a marriage in the old parish records for a William nichol and Margaret kirk, from memory about 1809/1811, in shotts, then I found a birth for mary nichol about 1815 to them both, this info got lost and I cant refind it again on sp...…..now on James colligan birth in 1823 to john colligan and Margaret kirk, he looks to be 4th child born as there is a number 4 at end of entry, so connecting the dots I would say William nichol's Margaret kirk and john colligans Margaret kirk are the same person and james is 4th child, making mary nichol 1st child...…..I hope this makes sense...……..either way, I can find the mary nichol either, she has disappeared along with the rest.