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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: pinefamily on Friday 18 January 19 03:38 GMT (UK)
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Hello Rootschatters,
I am after some thoughts and ideas rather than actual research help.
What possible reasons could there be for a delay of roughly 10 years before a will was proved?
I have an ancestor whose will was proved in 1807, cannot find a burial, but his wife is described as a widow from 1798 in land tax records. He was last sighted in 1795, with no intervening years.
A possible burial place in London doesn't have extant parish records for the time and he is not buried in the town of the land tax records.
But I am mainly perplexed on the delay. The only possible thing that I can see is there were no witnesses to the will, which had been written back in 1771. The wife was the sole beneficiary and executor. Two witnesses came forward in 1807 to verify it was my ancestors signature.
Any contributions welcome.
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I have one in 1800s ... will made 1830, death 1842, proven 1856 ..... youngest beneficary turned 25 in 1855 and they waited until she was of age **... NSW Supreme Court but deceased estate included real property in the West Counties and VDL and Scotland ....
ADD ** as per the express request in will ... all his daughters had to wait till 25 instead of 21
JM
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Thanks Majm. If only there was a similar stipulation in this will, I could understand it. But unfortunately it's fairly stock standard, leaving everything to his wife.
From your example though, it shows there could have been any number of reasons for a delay in a will.
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Maybe they had trouble finding the will, or thought there may have been a later one.
Maybe, if there were no witnesses to the will, that could have invalidated it, even temporarily -
who knows what legalities were like then!
If there was real property, there may have been problems in proving ownership.
For instance, when I bought the house where I now live, it took ages for everything to go through (though not 10 years, thankfully!) because the old lady who owned the house had been told by 'somebody' that she could sign documents for her deceased husband because she had a Power of Attorney for him when he was alive, and the house had never been transferred solely to her. So I had to wait for that to go through before she could sign documents as the sole owner! And that was only 20 years ago ::) ::) ::)
Dawn M
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That's very interesting. Thanks Dawn.
Unless there's a record of proceedings it is always going to be a lot of what if's.
There was property as the wife is described as a widow in the land tax records.
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It may have been dependent on probate being settled for someone else who died first and who your man was a beneficiary of. I've had that.
Jane :-)
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Are there any Government stocks, bonds, securities etc. mentioned in the will? It may be that no-one bothered to apply for probate at the time of death, and it was only when the widow or someone else needed to get their hands on specific investments that a grant was applied for.
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Hello Rootschatters,
I am after some thoughts and ideas rather than actual research help.
What possible reasons could there be for a delay of roughly 10 years before a will was proved?
I have an ancestor whose will was proved in 1807, cannot find a burial, but his wife is described as a widow from 1798 in land tax records. He was last sighted in 1795, with no intervening years.
A possible burial place in London doesn't have extant parish records for the time and he is not buried in the town of the land tax records.
But I am mainly perplexed on the delay. The only possible thing that I can see is there were no witnesses to the will, which had been written back in 1771. The wife was the sole beneficiary and executor. Two witnesses came forward in 1807 to verify it was my ancestors signature.
Any contributions welcome.
I have found Administrations and Wills delayed by many years.
Also found Second Grants for Probate for the same deceased person, where the Will was not fully settled on the first Grant of Probate. The Will said that our village Public House was to be sold when John Archer died and divided up between his Daughters. However, when John Archer died in 1812 his Widow Mrs Mary Archer continued to run the Holly Bush, Stockingford as Licensee and rename it The Plough. Around the time of The Plough Stockingford being advertised For Sale in 1821 (purchased by Stephen Arthrell), there was a "Second Grant" on John Archer's 1812 Will.
An old Admin or Will might not always be dealt with at the time; beneficiaries are minors (look for Trusts or Trustees names); possibly a family member still lived in the property; the person who should of dealt with the Will / Admin previously has now died; or some other reason, could cause the Admin/Will Probate application to be delayed.
A Will or a Trust in a Will may allow a business or a household (domestic) situation to continue as usual after a death. Also a Bankruptcy of a possible beneficiary, or their Assignment where a person might Assign property or a business for the Benefit of his / her Creditors (people owed money by the Beneficiary) might trigger the Will to be dealt with.
Perhaps the Will was found later when clearing a house or at the Solicitors.
In relation to a few Wills, there may be cases in the Court of Chancery to alter the terms of a Will or Trusts etc.
Missing Local Burials
There might be no local Parish Church burial, but if they had money the body could be transported elsewhere for burial, buried in a Private or Nonconformist Cemetery.
Some Quakers (and others) who owned their own property with garden or land could be buried at their own property, or another property they owned.
Land Tax
Our local Pub was subject to Tithe, also a Quit Rent to the Lord of the Manor (who had sold the Pub).
The Owner / Occupier might not always appear in surviving Land Tax records, because not every property was subject to Land Tax in England and some had paid the fee to Queen Anne's Bounty Office to redeem the property and be exonerated from Land Tax (See Redemption of / Redeemed Land Tax).
So if there are several of the same name in the locality, have you found your actual relative in the Land Tax, or someone else?
It depends on the detail in the Land Tax as to whether you can identify specific properties, some Land Tax Surveys were conducted more or less in Street order, then suddenly change to Alphabetical order by Proprietor or Occupier.
Mark
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My 4th gt grandfather died in 1851 and the will was proved in 1858 but I have theories about why.
Daniel left everything to his children - his home and all furniture etc. were to be sold and the money equally shared out, the workshop and the 2nd house he owned, where his eldest son lived, these to go to the eldest son who was also his partner in their business - all this to happen after his wife Elizabeth's death as she was to have use of everything until she died. I believe that they just left it status quo while Elizabeth lived at family home with her youngest children but she's living with my 3rd gt grandmother in the 1861, I think she decided either to move home or there was money problems somewhere in the family so they proved the will and sold up. Elizabeth stayed with my 3rd gt grandmother until she died at her house in the 1870s.
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I've got one will where there was a what looks like a change of executors between the first probate date and the later date, and both are quite some time after the actual death - perhaps someone vital couldn't be traced at the time, or similar...
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When we made our wills,the solicitor advised us against naming a particular person as an executor incase they died before us. We we told to name the solicitors or one of their partners then there would be no delay in carrying our our wishes( unless the company went broke of course ;D)
So maybe an executor died before the deceased person and they spent a long time trying to find who else qualified to fulfil the role?
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When we made our wills,the solicitor advised us against naming a particular person as an executor in case they died before us. We we told to name the solicitors or one of their partners then there would be no delay in carrying our our wishes( unless the company went broke of course ;D)
Of course they'd give you that advice, they will charge to execute the will, so unless you have an extremely complicated will, or businesses involved it's quite easy for most ordinary people to do the job. My husband and I named 2 of our children as executors.
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My husband and I named 2 of our children as executors.
So did my gran,but her only child,my dad, died when he was just 46 in 1970,and she went on for a further 18 years. 8)
So her will had to be changed and we chose solicitors again for that very reason.
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My F.I.L died in 1963 and his probate wasn't finalised for quite a few years. He was a partner in a two man business and, obviously this delayed things. My M.I.L had to decide whether she wanted to take over the partnership or transfer it to the other partner and there were various other complications. I know she managed to sell their house and move to a flat before probate was finalised because the house was automatically transferred to her.
Ironically, the executor was a very distant relative of mine (and no relative of my in laws), although we didn't find that out until many years later when I started doing my family history.
Carol - Fortunately, we have 6 children so if any of them die before us, then one of the others will replaced the deceased one as executor. We also already have 8 adult grandchildren so even one of them could become executor if necessary. (We also have 4 grandchildren under 12)
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There are various reasons where Probate can be delayed. I have several cases of delay in Probate.
The longest gap I have is a will that didn't go to Probate until twent-five years after the death in the early 1800s. His wife and and her brother were named as executrix and executor, they had to act jointly, not independently. After the business was sold, the estate was left in trust for the benefit of the wife during her lifetime, then everything passed to their only son who was in living in America. However, the wife died before the will went to Probate, her brother had to wait for the son to return to England before Probate could be granted.
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When we made our wills,the solicitor advised us against naming a particular person as an executor in case they died before us. We we told to name the solicitors or one of their partners then there would be no delay in carrying our our wishes( unless the company went broke of course ;D)
Of course they'd give you that advice, they will charge to execute the will, so unless you have an extremely complicated will, or businesses involved it's quite easy for most ordinary people to do the job. My husband and I named 2 of our children as executors.
Yes, if naming Solicitors as Executors, the Solicitors Bill will be charged and deducted from the Estate value.
If the Executor dies, the Testator appoints a replacement (for England see link).
Executors need to be persons who are organised, will keep the records (of Money collected in and Bills paid out) filed; you know the Executors well, you can trust and who have confirmed to you as Testator, will actually deal with the Will. Basically an Executor is settling up all the deceased finances and assets in accord with the Will and relevant Law.
There was a complaint on UK Television, where a Will writing company (who kept the Wills) went Bankrupt and when the Wills were applied for, the Offices were empty and the Wills were lost. So consider the security of the Will too.
UK - a few general links
https://www.gov.uk/make-will/updating-your-will
https://www.gov.uk/wills-probate-inheritance/if-the-person-didnt-leave-a-will
Who Inherits, when no Will - UK
https://www.gov.uk/inherits-someone-dies-without-will
Mark
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Thanks Majm. If only there was a similar stipulation in this will, I could understand it. But unfortunately it's fairly stock standard, leaving everything to his wife.
From your example though, it shows there could have been any number of reasons for a delay in a will.
Had a similar example, the husband's will wasn't proven until his wife died.
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Thanks to everyone who has shared their thoughts and suggestions. Apologies for not replying but we are in the middle of moving house, and I have just started a new job, so everything is hectic at the moment.
This will just leaves everything to the wife, without stipulating any particulars of what he had, and the wife was made sole executrix. The will was granted probate in 1807, and the widow didn't die until 1816 (her will was proved 2 years later in 1818). The only thing I can see that is out of the ordinary is there were no witnesses to his signing. As far as I know, the brother, who was one of those who stated the will and signature to be true, was working for the testator as a clerk.
As for a nonconformist burial, the testator was the son, grandson, and brother of clergy, so while I can't rule it out, it seems unlikely.
And thanks to one most helpful Rootschatter, who doesn't like to be named, but who has helped me immensely with this family. You know who you are.