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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: KiwiHugh on Friday 18 January 19 06:25 GMT (UK)

Title: Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan born in France
Post by: KiwiHugh on Friday 18 January 19 06:25 GMT (UK)
Family verbal history says Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan was born in Lorraine Franch. Records from NZ indicate his birth year was 1854. I have read their records are good but am struggling to find where to look as they are regional. Help please.
Title: Re: Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan born in France
Post by: joger on Friday 18 January 19 09:12 GMT (UK)
There are some French O'sullivans indeed, who have Irish ancestors who settled in France.
Lorraine is a region north east of France. Without any more infos concerning a city in Lorraine , it may be very difficult to find him. Still ,the forename Romeo being very rare it is worth trying. What else do you know about him?
Title: Re: Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan born in France
Post by: hanes teulu on Friday 18 January 19 11:31 GMT (UK)
Records are held on microfilm by "Commune" within "Departement" and are not indexed. Hence the need, ideally, to pinpoint the "Commune". Checking for the relevant "Departement" for Lorraine it delivers "Meurthe-et-Moselle", a "Departement" that comprises 106 "Communes" ie.
 
http://archivesenligne.archives.cg54.fr/s/1/etat-civil/resultats/?&ref_fonds=1&debut=0

Where the "Commune" includes "T.D" (Tables Decennale) this is a 10 year summary in alphabetical order by Surname of the "Actes de Naissance/birth, Marriage/marriage and Deces/death for the previous 10 years. They tend to be filmed at the beginning of the film (but no guarantee - I've only checked a few "Communes").  "T.D"s are the exception rather than the rule.

Else it means ploughing through the film to the period of "naissances/births" you are interested in and checking entry by entry - which, again, is not easy depending on handwriting/quality of film..

As joger points out " .... it may be very difficult to find him". 

 
Title: Re: Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan born in France
Post by: CaroleW on Friday 18 January 19 16:52 GMT (UK)
FS shows 4 children born in NZ and that Daniel's wife was Mary.  Do NZ marriage certs show a fathers name?  Do NZ death certs show a place of birth?
Title: Re: Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan born in France
Post by: jorose on Saturday 19 January 19 12:05 GMT (UK)
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/dataCollected/marriage
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/dataCollected/death
 If he married 1880 or later it would give parents' names and birthplace.

Death certificate should give parents' names, birthplace, and how long in NZ - if known to the informant, of course.

Daniel Leo - 1885
Ellen - 1888
Mary - 1888
John - 1890 (father as Daniel R)
Julia - 1891

It seems he was in the Dannevirke area, possibly Umutaoroa specifically so this is interesting:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/BA18900524.2.7
A claim against John O'Sullivan for work done on land owned by his wife, Julia O'Sullivan.  A D.R. O'Sullivan and P. Kerrin are mentioned as having let the land, one of these (presumably D. R. O'Sullivan) related to John O'Sullivan.

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/BA18910714.2.8?query=%22D%20R%20O%27Sullivan%22
 - here John O'Sullivan in the same area says Mrs D. R. O'Sullivan is his sister.

This makes me think that the marriage is the 1884 one between Daniel OSullivan and Mary OSullivan - so John O'Sullivan presumably on her side not his.  Would definitely be worth seeing what the marriage says.
Title: Re: Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan born in France
Post by: KiwiHugh on Saturday 19 January 19 22:56 GMT (UK)
Thank you. Looks like DIA are to get more money. The 1884 marriage is theirs. Mary died without a death cert and it is believed Daniel returned to Europe. The children were put into a Catholic orphanage.
Title: Re: Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan born in France
Post by: wivenhoe on Sunday 20 January 19 07:37 GMT (UK)
"..Records from NZ indicate his birth year was 1854."

What records are these?. Is Daniel indicating an age or is another person indicating his age?

Bush Advocate 14 Jul 1891 p2
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/BA18910714.2.8?
....Mr BAMFORD.......Mrs D R O'SULLIVAN is my sister......

New Zealand Herald  18 Mar 1893 p10
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZH18930318.2.70.18?

Oamaru Mail 21 Mar 1893 p4
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/OAM18930321.2.27?

Articles about Tierra del Fuega by D R O'SULLIVAN.....
Title: Re: Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan born in France
Post by: wivenhoe on Sunday 20 January 19 07:49 GMT (UK)
BDM NZ death
1893/3515   O'SULLIVAN   Mary   59Y  (died 11 Sep 1893)   

b. ~ 1834 if this age at death is accurate Mary would be too old to be mother of children born 1885 - 1891?

Bush Advocate 12 Sep 1893 p2
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/BA18930912.2.4?
...death notice for Mrs D R O'SULLIVAN.........Umutaoroa.....
Title: Re: Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan born in France
Post by: wivenhoe on Sunday 20 January 19 08:22 GMT (UK)
Looking at timeline at BDM NZ, birth records for the children would include age and birthplace of parents.
Title: Re: Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan born in France
Post by: joger on Sunday 20 January 19 10:31 GMT (UK)
Family verbal history says Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan was born in Lorraine Franch.
"Lorraine Franch" is what you wrote , we all supose you meant France (since Lorraine is in France).
But it could also mean Lorraine Franch(e Comté) and in this case it would mean a larger territory to search in.
Before 1871 (annexion of part of Alsace Lorraine by the Prussians), Lorraine had 4 "départements": Meuse , Moselle , Meurthe et Moselle and Vosges.Franche Comté has also 4 départements ( Doubs , Jura, Haute-Saône and Territoire de Belfort.


So, did you want to write  :Lorraine, France, or not?

Title: Re: Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan born in France
Post by: joger on Sunday 20 January 19 10:51 GMT (UK)


Bush Advocate 14 Jul 1891 p2
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/BA18910714.2.8?
....Mr BAMFORD.......Mrs D R O'SULLIVAN is my sister......


If Mrs DR O'Sullivan was Mr Bamford 's sister , she should be called Bamford at birth.
the 1884 marriage gives Mary O'Sullivan married Daniel O'Sullivan.
If she married Daniel , being widow of another   O'Sullivan, we should find this marriage, but I tried and found none.
Title: Re: Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan born in France
Post by: joger on Sunday 20 January 19 11:15 GMT (UK)
http://www.cartesfrance.fr/carte-france-region/carte-region-Lorraine.html
Title: Re: Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan born in France
Post by: jorose on Sunday 20 January 19 18:10 GMT (UK)
John O'Sullivan was the brother of Mrs D. R. O'Sullivan, there is no earlier marriage to find.

Mr Bamford is merely the one interviewing / cross-examining the witnesses, not the one giving the info - the evidence was given by witness John O'Sullivan.  Where it says "by Mr Bamford:" before a paragraph this indicates that the witness is speaking in response to questions asked by Mr Bamford, not that Bamford was giving the info.

You will see further down that Mr Bamford also cross-examines D.R. O'Sullivan and a J. McGaughran, and a Mr. Blakiston cross-examines the witnesses for the other side of the case.

This is a common format for legal case reporting, I presume they left off "cross-examined..." before the "by" for brevity.
Title: Re: Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan born in France
Post by: joger on Sunday 20 January 19 18:29 GMT (UK)
Allright, I misunderstood.
Title: Re: Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan born in France
Post by: joger on Saturday 26 January 19 12:06 GMT (UK)
Keeping searching I found :
on Filae :
Thomas William O Sullivan : naturalisation , https://www.filae.com/v4/genealogie/Search.mvc/SearchForm?ln=O%20SULLIVAN&fn=Thomas&idf=True&tab=0&nf=0&ef=0;1;2;3;4;5;6;7;8;9&mp=False&yf=6&pf=0&cpf=0&dpf=0&img=False&src=False&hka=False&rf=0&ord=1&srt=0&ps=20&pi=1&mz=0&hmtr=False

with the help of a Premium Subscriber :
https://books.google.fr/books?id=65SOkQhBiIEC&pg=PA272&lpg=PA272&dq=bulletin+des+lois+thomas+o+Sullivan&source=bl&ots=BUk1iQELzQ&sig=ACfU3U2iavVtjBbLtV4gWsN2M_F666fiMg&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiAlNCO-_zfAhWryYUKHXpjC6MQ6AEwCXoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=bulletin%20des%20lois%20thomas%20o%20Sullivan&f=false
Born in 1790 in the Hague (La Haye, Den Haag) he could be Daniel's grandfather.

Then I found , which means that he was in the french army, and born in the Hague


Title: Re: Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan born in France
Post by: joger on Saturday 26 January 19 12:42 GMT (UK)
And this , which gives Thomas Guillaume (aka Thomas William)'s parents names
(Hendriette is Henriette in fact) Thomas William was born 21 july 1790 in The Hague
Title: Re: Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan born in France
Post by: joger on Saturday 26 January 19 12:48 GMT (UK)
Then I found , which states that (Elisabeth, or Elizabeth) Moliere was widow of Thomas Herbert OSullivan , and then she married Charles PATOU,infantry captain)when ? she was born in the Hague 4 feb 1762 and died in Paris 18 feb 1836.

Title: Re: Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan born in France
Post by: joger on Saturday 26 January 19 12:53 GMT (UK)
Then I found  in the British  National Archives , not knowing if it is the same Thomas Herbert OSULLIVAN
Title: Re: Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan born in France
Post by: joger on Saturday 26 January 19 12:56 GMT (UK)
https://discover.hsp.org/Record/marc-59855

https://books.google.fr/books/about/Descendants_of_the_Major_s_Thomas_Herber.html?id=OZ9KewAACAAJ&redir_esc=y

https://books.google.fr/books?id=2Ck1o_fOr5YC&pg=PA124-IA1&lpg=PA124-IA1&dq=thomas+herbert+O%27Sullivan&source=bl&ots=oPMTKByTYD&sig=ACfU3U3JpstfZ-dhgndn64U0-30wdM35qQ&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwim6JKPv4vgAhVOPBoKHY4QA5QQ6AEwB3oECAAQAQ#v=onepage&q=thomas%20herbert%20O'Sullivan&f=false

not knowing if it is the same TH OSullivan
Title: Re: Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan born in France
Post by: joger on Saturday 26 January 19 12:59 GMT (UK)
Have found more about Henriette's Moliere 's parents  (Abel Cesar Moliere and Henriette Lydie Madelaine AMABVIJ), who had a child called Antoine Isaac.


But  I still have not found Thomas William (Guillaume)'s children  who could lead to Daniel Romeo.
Title: Re: Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan born in France
Post by: joger on Saturday 26 January 19 13:09 GMT (UK)
Charles PATOU and EH Moliere had at least one child called Henriette PATOU, born 28/october 1802 in Arras , France departement du Pas de Calais, baptized in Paris , protestant 24 frimaire an 13.She was the half sister of EH Moliere .
Title: Re: Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan born in France
Post by: joger on Saturday 26 January 19 14:20 GMT (UK)
Found on LibraryIreland that a certain Thomas Herbert Osullivan died in the Hague in 1824
https://www.libraryireland.com/Pedigrees1/VeraOSullivan1Heber.php but not sure it is he same)
may be there were 2 Thomas Herbert OSullivan in the irish /Dutch army.

It is worth checking the birth of TW OSullivan july 1790 in  the Hague.
Title: Re: Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan born in France
Post by: joger on Saturday 26 January 19 18:06 GMT (UK)
So ,
I found the birth and death  of Henry Guillaume O'Sullivan , died of tubercolosis, 20 years'old, son of Thomas William O'Sullivan , resigning army officer in 1818 and Marie Augustine DESPREZ. ( I think he is the TW OSullivan who became french in 1818).Parents both already dead in 1838.
Henry Guillaume:( born 8 feb 1818 in Douai, departement du Nord, France) and death ( 11 march 1838 , in Metz (Moselle departement ,  soldier (sapeur à la deuxième compagnie).
Title: Re: Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan born in France
Post by: KiwiHugh on Saturday 26 January 19 23:23 GMT (UK)
Hi Joger Will go back and ask what else they have on Daniel R O'S.... The O'Sullivans married into my great grans half sisters family. DRS wife Mary is the Aunt of that insertion into my family. One of DRO's and Mary descendants asked if I could work out how they were related to my O'Sullivans that fortunately we were still in contact with.
Title: Re: Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan born in France
Post by: joger on Sunday 27 January 19 07:04 GMT (UK)
You should ask for help from someone who can manage searching the archives of The Hague ( Nederlands).
1790 birth of Thomas William O'Sullivan  and maybe the marriage of Thomas Herbert and Henriette Moliere
Title: Re: Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan born in France
Post by: joger on Sunday 27 January 19 14:25 GMT (UK)
I searched for Daniel Romeo in the tables of the 17 garnison towns in Lorraine at that time ( around 1854), and in Nancy, and found no O Sullivan or Sullivan.
Title: Re: Daniel Romeo O'Sullivan born in France
Post by: PaulaMcF on Monday 05 October 20 13:03 BST (UK)
Hi
I am the grand daughter of Julia O’Sullivan one of Daniel Romeo O’Sullivans children.
I have been curious as to whether Daniel returned to Europe or remained in NZ?
My grandmother did grow up in an orphanage but never spoke of her father.
Any information gained would be much appreciated.
kind regards
Paula