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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: Sally Brealey on Friday 18 January 19 22:21 GMT (UK)

Title: Stuck trying to trace Great Grandfather, born London in approx 1877
Post by: Sally Brealey on Friday 18 January 19 22:21 GMT (UK)
Hi,

I am after some assistance with my friends family tree. I am trying to trace his fathers line and have got stuck. I have done my own family tree so think I have done the basics but would love some advice on what to do next!

The family is of Jewish heritage and are not sure when they moved to England.

I am stuck at the level of Great Grandfather.

His name is Harry Daniel Jackson, we believe he was born on 20th September 1877 (from 1939 register) and was born in Goodmans Field in London which was a Jewish area (from 1911 census)
He was married in Nottingham on Christmas Day 1901 and they went onto have 3 children, only one of which had a child which was my friends father.
I have sent off for the marriage certificate and am waiting for that but do have a shortened version which shows Harrys father being called John Jackson.
We did believe we had baptism records from 1882 which was the same name however after liaising with London Metropolitan Archives we have discovered this record has been wrongly dated and is from 1982, rather than 1882.
We cant find any record associated with him until his marriage in 1901, and no census record from that year. There was someone born the same year with the name Harry Jackson in London however I have been able to rule him out.

Can anyone assist with what to do next please?

Thank you so much
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Jewish ancestors
Post by: amondg on Saturday 19 January 19 08:00 GMT (UK)
His WWl record says he was born 1874 London Middlesex, age 41 in 1915.

Hampshire Regiment number 54884, enlisted 9 Dec 1915 shrapnel wound to the shoulder 28 Sept 1918, discharged 14 May 1919.
He was 5' 4" with defective vision. After the wound to the shoulder he was unable to lift it above vertical, medical report Germany
Home record for discharge was 4 Chandos Street Netherfield. Occupation Hairdresser and Tobacconist.

Wife Anna next of kin same address as above.

Children
Claude Victor born 3 October 1902
Theresa Elizabeth born 30 November 1904
Stanley Francis born 17 February 1907.

Gives another year of birth to search.

Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Jewish ancestors
Post by: whiteout7 on Saturday 19 January 19 09:03 GMT (UK)
Is this his death date and place of death at residence?

JACKSON, Harry Daniel
44 Chadwick Road, Nottingham, Retired Hairdresser.
18th February 1960.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/41979/page/1891/data.pdf
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Jewish ancestors
Post by: mowsehowse on Saturday 19 January 19 09:10 GMT (UK)
Hello Sally, welcome to Rootschat.

I would be surprised if a Jew had their child in a baptism register (church record)..... unless they converted?

There is a marvellous genealogy site called "Jewish Gen", but I think it may cost you.

You could try searching the Jewish Chronicle for information perhaps. Looks like you may have to pay for access these days, so probably list your targets/dates before going on there.

https://www.thejc.com/archive/subscription-required-7.102?aId=1.212216
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Jewish ancestors
Post by: [Ray] on Saturday 19 January 19 09:22 GMT (UK)
Hi     

Netherfield = Nottingham     


1911 the 5 mentioned are in Nottingham.     
Hairdresser's family

Anna Francis is the mother.     

1891,      there is a Harry Jackson (16, Bycicle Maker ) in Nottingham     
with father Samuel (60, lace maker) and family ( ALL born Nottingham )       
Any useful notes there?
 
. . . . . and yes, it is spelled "bycicle"      :)

Ray

Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Jewish ancestors
Post by: Bookbox on Saturday 19 January 19 09:24 GMT (UK)
The family is of Jewish heritage and are not sure when they moved to England

Welcome to RootsChat!

Can you please say why you think the family was of Jewish origin? There don't seem to be any real indicators in what has been posted so far.

If there is evidence that they were, bear in mind that there might have been a change of surname at some point.
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Jewish ancestors
Post by: louisa maud on Saturday 19 January 19 09:30 GMT (UK)
Any idea of father's occupation?

also did they, father or mother become British citizens?

Louisa Maud

PS, as a matter of interest it is shown as  C of E  against his record
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Jewish ancestors
Post by: louisa maud on Saturday 19 January 19 09:45 GMT (UK)
Looking at the census you have already shown he is aged  36, so born circa 1875,

the only Daniel Harry I can find is registered around this date is as follows
Harry Daniel Smith MMN Benfield
1878 Holborn

As Book box suggests, was their a name change

Louisa Maud
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Jewish ancestors
Post by: [Ray] on Saturday 19 January 19 09:46 GMT (UK)
Hi

The Harry D J born 9/1977 is living same address 1939 as per 1960 death probate listing.

Hairdresser


Ray
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Jewish ancestors
Post by: whiteout7 on Saturday 19 January 19 10:02 GMT (UK)
This could be him in 1901

Harry Jackson, born 1875, aged 26 in the Registration District of Nottingham,Nottinghamshire

You would need to access a paid site to look at it in full.
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Jewish ancestors
Post by: whiteout7 on Saturday 19 January 19 10:17 GMT (UK)
William David Blackford born 1895 in Battersea, London was registered in the GRO at Fulham.

BLACKFORD, WILLIAM  DAVID     FRANCIS     
GRO Reference: 1895  D Quarter in FULHAM  Volume 01A  Page 200

He must be Ann Francis's nephew

His parents appear to be William Robert Blackford and Elizabeth Francis registered as married in Wandsworth in June 1894

Don't know if this helps?

Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Jewish ancestors
Post by: louisa maud on Saturday 19 January 19 11:07 GMT (UK)
My mother always told me her grandmother was Jewish, well she wasn't and there is not a sign of anyone Jewish in our family, I have no idea  where she got that information from

Harry has C of E against his record, perhaps he wasn't Jewish or did he change

Louisa Maud
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Jewish ancestors
Post by: whiteout7 on Saturday 19 January 19 11:23 GMT (UK)
William David Blackford born 1895 in Battersea, London was registered in the GRO at Fulham.

BLACKFORD, WILLIAM  DAVID     FRANCIS     
GRO Reference: 1895  D Quarter in FULHAM  Volume 01A  Page 200

He must be Ann Francis's nephew

His parents appear to be William Robert Blackford and Elizabeth Francis registered as married in Wandsworth in June 1894

Don't know if this helps?

There is also a neice daughter of William Robert Blackford and Elizabeth Francis
BLACKFORD, BESSIE  CECILIA     FRANCIS     
GRO Reference: 1897  S Quarter in KENSINGTON  Volume 01A  Page 142

According to free BMD she married a Benjamin Benjamin (could this be a Jewish connection??)
Marriages June 1917   
Benjamin    Benjamin    Blackford    Islington    1b   569   
Blackford    Bessie C    Benjamin    Islington    1b   569

Are any of these people buried in a Jewish Cemetery because that could also be a way to find information
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Jewish ancestors
Post by: louisa maud on Saturday 19 January 19 11:30 GMT (UK)
Looks as if Anna was born in Suffolk, can't understand why I cannot find her on 1901, married
Perhaps the originator will come back with more information
Louisa Maud
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Jewish ancestors
Post by: louisa maud on Saturday 19 January 19 11:49 GMT (UK)
"He was married in Nottingham on Christmas Day 1901 "



1891 Anna Francis  is at home with parents David aged 54 and Elizabeth aged 52

1901
RG13/1797 FOLIO 34 PAGE 2
High Street Southwold
David W Francis aged 64 Engineer, as was on 1891
Anna S Francis dau 29


Louisa Maud

I have modified this, sorry,
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Jewish ancestors
Post by: mowsehowse on Saturday 19 January 19 12:02 GMT (UK)
Salley, You might want to change the title of your thread or you might get more answers that won't help you.🙄
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Jewish ancestors
Post by: louisa maud on Saturday 19 January 19 13:43 GMT (UK)
Sally, I think I will wait and look forward to the details of the marriage cert

We all try to help to the best of our abilities, sometimes we are not right because we need and search for more information, hopefully that will be forthcoming soon

Please let us know the  information you get and we can proceed from there

Happy Hunting

Louisa Maud

Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Jewish ancestors
Post by: Sally Brealey on Saturday 19 January 19 14:37 GMT (UK)
Hi all

Thanks for the replies. I am just out at the moment but will add some more detail later.

We know his son Claude was Jewish (although I'm unsure if he was practicing)

Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Jewish ancestors
Post by: louisa maud on Saturday 19 January 19 15:51 GMT (UK)
Perhaps it was in the female line, but will wait for more information
Louisa Maud
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Jewish ancestors
Post by: Sally Brealey on Saturday 19 January 19 21:55 GMT (UK)
Hi

Thank you so much for the replies.

I can confirm that yes he died on 18th Feb 1960 in Nottingham.

He was a hairdresser and his son, Claude would also go onto be a hairdresser.

One of the family have a copy of his marriage certificate but I have sent off for the full copy. What I have so far is attached. It shows his fathers name as John.

Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Jewish ancestors
Post by: Sally Brealey on Saturday 19 January 19 21:56 GMT (UK)
Sorry here is the marriage cert that I have so far
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Jewish ancestors
Post by: Sally Brealey on Saturday 19 January 19 22:00 GMT (UK)
This is the death record
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Jewish ancestors
Post by: Sally Brealey on Saturday 19 January 19 22:00 GMT (UK)
This is one of his sons (the Granfather of my friend) birth cetificate
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Jewish ancestors
Post by: nanny jan on Saturday 19 January 19 22:06 GMT (UK)
The marriage certificate shown is a full copy of the Parish register entry; there are no short copies.

The 'death record' shown appears to be a burial record, not a death certificate.
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Jewish ancestors
Post by: [Ray] on Saturday 19 January 19 22:08 GMT (UK)
Hi Sally,     


It may be quiet for the next couple of hours (or so . . . . .  :) )     
however you may get a flourish of queries "tomorrow"    :) :)   


Ray

       
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Great Grandfather, born London in approx 1877
Post by: [Ray] on Saturday 19 January 19 22:11 GMT (UK)
Hi     

( Don't time fly?  ;D )
There is a tree on Ancrustry ( "Richard" )     

Have you verified it ?
R
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Great Grandfather, born London in approx 1877
Post by: Sally Brealey on Saturday 19 January 19 22:30 GMT (UK)
Hi Ray

Yes thats my friends tree, I have access to ancestry and also find my past
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Great Grandfather, born London in approx 1877
Post by: louisa maud on Saturday 19 January 19 23:00 GMT (UK)
Oh dear,  have been plotting a family of Jackson, father John and mother Ida, she was a British Subject
Father's occupation is in the police force but HARRY was born in Streatham, 1873, so that rules that one out

And so we plod on

1901 I don't know if he is in Nottingham or nearer to where Anna was Suffolk

Louisa Maud
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Great Grandfather, born London in approx 1877
Post by: louisa maud on Saturday 19 January 19 23:24 GMT (UK)
Pity we can't find who lived at the address Harry Daniel Jackson gave on his marriage cert

Louisa Maud
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Great Grandfather, born London in approx 1877
Post by: Bookbox on Sunday 20 January 19 01:26 GMT (UK)
If you're sure about the Jewish connection ...

A long shot, but perhaps this might be the family in earlier censuses, with a subsequent change of surname from Jacobs to Jackson?

Great Alie Street is close to Goodmans Fields.

Harry Daniel Jackson had a daughter named Theresa.

1881 census
RG11/446 folio 8 page 10
2 Great Alie Street, Whitechapel, Middlesex
John Jacobs, head, married, 53, Hairdresser, born Russian Poland, Kosokoff
Theresa Jacobs, wife, married, 44, Housekeeper, born German Poland, Schroda
Doretta Jacobs, daughter, unmarried, 24, Tailoress
Lizzie Jacobs, daughter, unmarried, 21, Tailoress
Louis Jacobs, son, unmarried, 19, Hairdresserís Assistant
Jane Jacobs, daughter, unmarried, 17, Tailoress
Fanny Jacobs, daughter, unmarried, 13, Scholar
Gabriel Jacobs, son, unmarried, 11, Scholar
Anne Jacobs, daughter, unmarried, 9, Scholar
Sarah Jacobs, daughter, unmarried, 7, Scholar
Joseph Jacobs, son, unmarried, 5, Scholar
Daniel Jacobs, son, unmarried, 3
Minnie Jacobs, daughter, unmarried, 1
Kate Wallace, servant, unmarried, 16, General Servant, Domestic
(all the children born Middlesex Whitechapel)

1891 census
RG12/282 folio 87 page 1
2 Great Alie Street, Whitechapel, London
John Jacobs, head, married, 64, Hairdresser, born Poland
Thresa Jacobs, wife, married, 55, born Germany Posen
Doretta Jacobs, daughter, single, 34, Tailoress
Lizzie Jacobs, daughter, single, 31, Tailoress
Fanny Jacobs, daughter, single, 23, Teacher (School)
Gabriel Jacobs, son, single, 21, Cigar Bundler (Tob[acco])
Annie Jacobs, daughter, single, 19, Shoe Bow Maker
Sarah Jacobs, daughter, single, 17, Teacher (School)
Joseph Jacobs, son, single, 16, Clerk (Shorthand)
Daniel Jacobs, son, single, 13, Hairdressers Assistant
Minnie Jacobs, daughter, single, 11
(all the children born Middlesex Whitechapel)

Needs more work ...
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Great Grandfather, born London in approx 1877
Post by: Sally Brealey on Sunday 20 January 19 01:40 GMT (UK)
I don't think that's a long shot at all!

That makes a lot of sense to me and I might be getting over excited but I really want to look at this some more!!


Re 1901 census I can search by address in find my past but no Buxton street or that number for king meadows way
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Great Grandfather, born London in approx 1877
Post by: Bookbox on Sunday 20 January 19 01:58 GMT (UK)
Re 1901 census I can search by address in find my past but no Buxton street or that number for king meadows way

I haven't been able to find it in 1901 either. To help locate it, in 1891 it's enumerated immediately after 67 Kings Meadow Road, starting at RG12/2684 folio 126 page 31.
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Great Grandfather, born London in approx 1877
Post by: Bookbox on Sunday 20 January 19 02:04 GMT (UK)
Found it now in 1901. It's at RG13/3168 folio 48 page 36. I think FindMyPast may have transcribed it as Burton Street.

I don't think he's there, but it may be worth browsing around a little.
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Great Grandfather, born London in approx 1877
Post by: whiteout7 on Sunday 20 January 19 05:39 GMT (UK)
If you're sure about the Jewish connection ...

A long shot, but perhaps this might be the family in earlier censuses, with a subsequent change of surname from Jacobs to Jackson?

Great Alie Street is close to Goodmans Fields.

Harry Daniel Jackson had a daughter named Theresa.

1881 census
RG11/446 folio 8 page 10
2 Great Alie Street, Whitechapel, Middlesex
John Jacobs, head, married, 53, Hairdresser, born Russian Poland, Kosokoff
Theresa Jacobs, wife, married, 44, Housekeeper, born German Poland, Schroda
Doretta Jacobs, daughter, unmarried, 24, Tailoress
Lizzie Jacobs, daughter, unmarried, 21, Tailoress
Louis Jacobs, son, unmarried, 19, Hairdresser’s Assistant
Jane Jacobs, daughter, unmarried, 17, Tailoress
Fanny Jacobs, daughter, unmarried, 13, Scholar
Gabriel Jacobs, son, unmarried, 11, Scholar
Anne Jacobs, daughter, unmarried, 9, Scholar
Sarah Jacobs, daughter, unmarried, 7, Scholar
Joseph Jacobs, son, unmarried, 5, Scholar
Daniel Jacobs, son, unmarried, 3
Minnie Jacobs, daughter, unmarried, 1
Kate Wallace, servant, unmarried, 16, General Servant, Domestic
(all the children born Middlesex Whitechapel)

1891 census
RG12/282 folio 87 page 1
2 Great Alie Street, Whitechapel, London
John Jacobs, head, married, 64, Hairdresser, born Poland
Thresa Jacobs, wife, married, 55, born Germany Posen
Doretta Jacobs, daughter, single, 34, Tailoress
Lizzie Jacobs, daughter, single, 31, Tailoress
Fanny Jacobs, daughter, single, 23, Teacher (School)
Gabriel Jacobs, son, single, 21, Cigar Bundler (Tob[acco])
Annie Jacobs, daughter, single, 19, Shoe Bow Maker
Sarah Jacobs, daughter, single, 17, Teacher (School)
Joseph Jacobs, son, single, 16, Clerk (Shorthand)
Daniel Jacobs, son, single, 13, Hairdressers Assistant
Minnie Jacobs, daughter, single, 11
(all the children born Middlesex Whitechapel)

Needs more work ...

In a GRO search the mothers maiden name is Goetz

JACOBS, MINNIE       GOETZ     
GRO Reference: 1879  S Quarter in WHITECHAPEL  Volume 01C  Page 365

JACOBS, JOSEPH       GOTZ     
GRO Reference: 1875  J Quarter in WHITECHAPEL  Volume 01C  Page 378

JACOBS, SARAH       GOTZ 
GRO Reference: 1873  S Quarter in WHITECHAPEL  Volume 01C  Page 350
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Great Grandfather, born London in approx 1877
Post by: louisa maud on Sunday 20 January 19 07:36 GMT (UK)
That is convincing Whiteout

Doreta is registered Dorothea, 1856 Whitechapel ref 1c 373 MMN shown as GATZ

Louisa Maud
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Jewish ancestors
Post by: mowsehowse on Sunday 20 January 19 07:42 GMT (UK)
Sorry here is the marriage cert that I have so far

Church of England marriage.....

There were thousands of Germans in England at this time - only some of them were Jewish.  :-\
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Great Grandfather, born London in approx 1877
Post by: louisa maud on Sunday 20 January 19 07:45 GMT (UK)
1901
John and a diminished family still in Hackney, 44 Arlington Street, John aged 74 and living on own means

They are also on 1861

Louisa Maud
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Great Grandfather, born London in approx 1877
Post by: louisa maud on Sunday 20 January 19 08:29 GMT (UK)
I suggest this family might well have been Jewish, perhaps Harry Daniel changed his name when he found an English lady to marry

Jewish people do marry "out"

He also was in the forces so perhaps Jacobs was not the right surname although it looks as if he changed his surname before marriage 1901, my uncle changed his surname and fought in the RAF, he was half German

If Whiteout has the right family she/he has worked hard

Louisa Maud
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Jewish ancestors
Post by: whiteout7 on Sunday 20 January 19 09:17 GMT (UK)
His WWl record says he was born 1874 London Middlesex, age 41 in 1915.

Hampshire Regiment number 54884, enlisted 9 Dec 1915 shrapnel wound to the shoulder 28 Sept 1918, discharged 14 May 1919.
He was 5' 4" with defective vision. After the wound to the shoulder he was unable to lift it above vertical, medical report Germany
Home record for discharge was 4 Chandos Street Netherfield. Occupation Hairdresser and Tobacconist.

Wife Anna next of kin same address as above.

Children
Claude Victor born 3 October 1902
Theresa Elizabeth born 30 November 1904
Stanley Francis born 17 February 1907.

Gives another year of birth to search.

The medal card Harry D Jackson 54884 is in the British Archives he also has a Labour corps number (must have been transfered there after his wounding), he received the British and the Victory medal

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3060518

I was just following BookBox's suggestion re Doretta Jacobs etc
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Great Grandfather, born London in approx 1877
Post by: Bookbox on Sunday 20 January 19 09:59 GMT (UK)
Sally, if you want to pursue the family that I suggested in reply #29, I'd suggest you try to trace forwards as many of the children as you can, just in case any of them ended up in Nottingham or can be connected with Harry Daniel Jackson in any other way after 1901.

An outlay of £6.00 for a pdf copy of Daniel's birth registration would allow you to cross-check his birthday with that given in the 1939 register, even though the year is different. The registration was in the 4th quarter of the year, which would be consistent with a birthday in late September. Just a suggestion.
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Great Grandfather, born London in approx 1877
Post by: nanny jan on Sunday 20 January 19 10:21 GMT (UK)
A word of caution about relying on 1939 Register for birth dates; my grandpa (b 1880) was wrong on day, month and year.....no wonder he was surprised when he qualified for his pension! Knowing your birth date was not so important at one time.
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Great Grandfather, born London in approx 1877
Post by: louisa maud on Sunday 20 January 19 11:45 GMT (UK)
It would appear  that John and Theresa had in total 14 children

Sarah ,  became a Hebrew teacher

This family seem to be very interesting in their occfupations

Louisa Maud
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Great Grandfather, born London in approx 1877
Post by: Sally Brealey on Sunday 20 January 19 11:48 GMT (UK)
Hi

Yes I will create a mini seperate tree for them today and try and see what I can find and also order that birth certificate.

Fingers and toes crossed
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Great Grandfather, born London in approx 1877
Post by: Bookbox on Sunday 20 January 19 11:54 GMT (UK)
Yes I will create a mini seperate tree for them today and try and see what I can find and also order that birth certificate.

Please do come back to this thread and let us know how you get on.
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Great Grandfather, born London in approx 1877
Post by: louisa maud on Sunday 20 January 19 12:19 GMT (UK)
Please let us know, it looks, so far, as if only Harry Daniel changed his name from Jacobs to Jackson

Sally, you have a lot to do to sort these out, good luck !!

Louisa Maud
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Great Grandfather, born London in approx 1877
Post by: Sally Brealey on Sunday 20 January 19 14:14 GMT (UK)
Of course!!

I may need some more advice to and of course it may come to nothing but I'll keep you informed.
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Great Grandfather, born London in approx 1877
Post by: Sally Brealey on Sunday 27 January 19 18:40 GMT (UK)
Yes I will create a mini seperate tree for them today and try and see what I can find and also order that birth certificate.

Please do come back to this thread and let us know how you get on.

Sorry for taking a little while to come back, we have been doing some work on the Jacobs tree but didnt want to get carried away until we got the birth certificate back.

I can confirm that the DOB is the same as the 1939 census, between this and the other evidence such as job, area born and his daughter name being the same as the mother we are now as sure as think we ever will be that this is his family.

To be honest bookbox, there is not enough words I can say or tell you how much this has meant to his family. We are still in shock and awe at you finding this family and I want to thank you so so much.

We will keep working on the family and we may find out more but I think we may never know why he changed his name or moved to Nottingham but as the family seem to be strict practising Jews, it may well have been due to his choice of wife.
Title: Re: Stuck trying to trace Great Grandfather, born London in approx 1877
Post by: Bookbox on Sunday 27 January 19 19:28 GMT (UK)
Thanks for coming back with an update. Very glad youíve got a satisfactory result.

There was a Jewish community in Nottingham at the time Harry moved there, albeit a small one. He may have moved for work reasons, and left the faith only when he married.
 
https://www.jewishgen.org/jcr-uk/Community/notts1/index.htm

Neither Harry nor his son Claude can have been practising Orthodox Jews when they died, because both were cremated. Traditionally, the Orthodox faith doesnít allow cremation, though nowadays itís becoming a little more common. The cremation records for Harry and Claude, at Wilford Hill, can be found at DeceasedOnline (free index, images pay-per-view).