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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Down => Topic started by: brussells1 on Saturday 19 January 19 10:28 GMT (UK)
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After 3 years of searching I had been unable to find any of my Irish relatives beyond my great grandfather Owen MacGuigan and Mary McLinden who married in Scotland in the 1860's. Her mother was Ann Trainer and father Bernard McLinden I have found Mary's siblings that also went to Scotland and from the latest daughter, Anne (married to an Arthur Rooney) found my great grandmother.
After being widowed she must have moved to Scotland to be with her daughter in Rosemarkie, Ross and Cromarty. From her death record her mother and father my great great grandparents are named Peter Trainer and Ellen Campbell. I believe she will have been born around 1801. Her father is recorded as Farmer. Mary McLinden (my great grandmother) birth place is given as Down and so I assume the family must have originated from this area. I have tried various searches but still cant locate any Irish records. Can anyone help please
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You don't say what religion they were.
COI records, where they are if they survive.
https://www.ireland.anglican.org/cmsfiles/pdf/AboutUs/library/registers/ParishRegisters/PARISHREGISTERS.pdf
Not all online yet but a lot more wil come online at a future date.
RC
https://registers.nli.ie/
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Hi Sinann
They were Roman Catholic as far as I am aware.
Thank you for responding.
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Can you clarify a few things?
Whose daughter is "Anne (married to an Arthur Rooney)"?
Who was widowed and moved to Scotland to be with her daughter? Who was the daughter?
Whose death record said her parents were Peter Trainer and Ellen Campbell? Is Peter connected to Ann Trainer?
Who was born about 1801?
Maybe you could chart it out like:
gg father
+ gg mother
g father
g mother
etc.
is it like this:
Bernard McLinden
+ Ann Trainer
Mary McLinden (b Co Down - )
+ Owen MacGuigan
Anne McLinden
+ Arthur Rooney
If so, where do the other people fit? Do you have any other dates and places?
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There are a lot of Catholic Trainors, McLindens and Rooneys in South Down, but I expect there are a lot in any other Catholic area of Down as well.
Have you tried RosDavies.com - County Down website?
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Hello Oldohlohome,
apologies for the delay in responding.
Irish ancestors recorded on death certificates as follows:-
GG Great Grandfather Peter Trainer - Farmer
GG Great Grandmother Ellen Campbell
G Great Grandmother Ann Trainer
G Great Grandfather Bernard McLinden - Farmer
Scottish records of Mclinden's after arrival in or around 1851 as follows:
Great Uncle Peter McLinden born abt 1826 married in Scotland Mary O’Donnell (Scottish)
Great Aunt Ellen McLinden born abt 1827 married in Scotland to John McInnis and Bartholomew Carroll (both Irish)
Great Aunt Anne McLinden born abt 1840 married in Scotland to Arthur Rooney (Irish)
Great Grandmother Mary McLinden born abt 1840 (Down) married in Scotland to Owen MacGuigan (Forkhill)
G Great Grandmother Ann Trainer (McLinden) first appears on the 1871 Scottish Census and again on the 1881 Census and dies in Scotland 1881. She is recorded as 90 on the last census and then 65 on death but she was more likely to be 80 given the birth dates of her children and was recorded as 70 in 1871. 1801 therefore looks to be the most feasible.
G Great Grandfather Bernard McLinden is recorded as deceased in 1867 when Ellen McLinden marries and I assume therefore that this his widow went to live in Scotland after the 1861 census and before her daughter Ellen's second marriage.
There must be other children in between birth dates who may have remained in Ireland or emigrated elsewhere.
Thank you for the suggestions I will try searching. I really appreciate the information.
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Here is a possibility to look at:
Peter TRAINOR Kilbroney husband of Elena Campbell ; father of Alice bpt. 31 Jan 1808 & Arthur bpt. 25 Apr 1811 at Kilbroney Catholic Church PR [= Parish or Church Register]
found at
http://rosdavies.com/SURNAMES/T/TrainorTreanor.htm
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The Kilbroney parish register is at
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0450
Baptisms start in 1808, so you probably won't find Ann, even if this is the right couple. but Marriages start in 1808 also, so maybe the Ann Trainer - Bernard McLinden marriage is there. and some baptisms of their children. Then again they could be from somewhere else, but at least it is a place to look.
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Any clue where Arthur Rooney was from? Sometimes emigrants marry people from their home area. Though your Great Aunt Ellen McLinden did not, nor your Great Grandmother Mary McLinden. I'm pretty sure there were Rooneys in Kilbroney.
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I'm putting the tree here for other people's benefit. Corrections welcome.
Peter Trainer, farmer [GGG Grandfather]
+ Ellen Campbell
- Ann Trainer [GG Grandmother] (c1801 - 1881, Scot)
arrive Scotland maybe after 1867
children arrive starting about 1851
1871: Scotland Census
1881: Scotland Census
+ Bernard McLinden, farmer ( - bef 1867)
Peter McLinden (1826 - )
marries in Scotland
+ Mary O'Donnell (b Scotland - )
Ellen McLinden (1827 - )
both marriages in Scotland
+ John McInnis
+ Bartholomew Carroll
Anne McLinden (c 1840 - )
marries in Scotland
+ Arthur Rooney
Mary McLinden [G Grandmother] (c 1840, Co Down - )
marries in Scotland
+ Owen MacGuigan [G Grandfather] (b Forkhill, Armagh? - )
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Thank you Oldohiohome that is all correct.
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I didn't like a few things about this couple's possibilities:
Here is a possibility to look at:
Peter TRAINOR Kilbroney husband of Elena Campbell ; father of Alice bpt. 31 Jan 1808 & Arthur bpt. 25 Apr 1811 at Kilbroney Catholic Church PR [= Parish or Church Register]
found at
http://rosdavies.com/SURNAMES/T/TrainorTreanor.htm
1. Ann (Trainer) McLinden didn't name any of her children Alice or Arthur, at least not so far as you have found.
2. I didn't find any of the 4 McLinden children, Peter, Ellen, Anne, or Mary in the free index of baptism records at findmypast.ie, although the Kilbroney Parish records are available for that time period.
3. I didn't find the marriage of Ann Trainer and Bernard Mclinden there either.
So here's another theory:
Ann and her husband Bernard McLinden were having children from 1826 to 1840, so Bernard was alive when the Tithe Applotment Books for Down were taken, from 1823 - 1837 according to www.titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie.
I ran a search for Bern* Mc*lind* in the Tithe Applotment Books and only found:
clonduff parish: McAlindon, Bernard Townland: Cleomack
clonduff parish: McAlindon, Bernard Townland: Island Moyal
clonduff parish: McAlindon, Bernard Townland: Leyod
There are plenty of Trainors and Campbells in Clonduff as well.
Parish records for Clonduff/Clonuff do not start until 1850.
(see https://www.johngrenham.com/browse/counties/rcmaps/downrc.php#maps/ and click on Clonuff.)
Which would explain why the children's baptisms aren't showing up.
This assumes that findmypast.ie's indexes are accurate and complete for parishes in Down that are available. Also that Bernard McLinden met the qualifications for the Tithe Applotment Books, but it looks like all you had to do was occupy 1 acre of land.
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There are a lot of McLindens in Clonduff on Griffith's Valuation (1864), including a Bernard:
McAlindan, Arthur
McAlindan, Daniel
McAlindan, Denis
McAlindan, James
McAlindan, James
McAlindan, John
McAlindan, John
McAlindan, John
McAlindan, Patrick
McAlindan, Patrick
McAlinden, Arthur
McAlinden, Bernard
McAlinden, Denis
McAlinden, Elizabeth
McAlinden, Henry
McAlinden, James
McAlinden, Michael
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A separate question to think about: Did any of the McLindens have boarders in their households on the censuses? What were their names, where were they from, etc? That might help you trace back your family, since the boarders, if any, might have come from the same part of Ireland.
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That is about all I can think of. Have you tried the County Down Genealogy Group at facebook?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/CountyDownGenealogy/
If the search ends up in Kilkeel, try A Day in the Life of Kilkeel & Mourne at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/436608986386995/
Or maybe there is a local Clonduff Parish group.
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Bernard McAlinden in Clonduff Parish on Griffith's valuation was in Ballykeel Townland, on Parcel 23a, house, offices, and land. The parcel didn't change hands until 1877, when the occupier is Owen McAlinden. (Valuation Revision Books)
There are three deaths of Bernard McAlindens in Newry Registration District from 1870 to 1875, any of which could be that Bernard:
from https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie
BERNARD MCALINDON
Date of Death 1870
Group Registration ID N/R
SR District/Reg Area Newry
Deceased Age at Death 60
Returns Year 1870
Returns Quarter 1
Returns Volume No 1
Returns Page No 738
BERNARD MCALINDON in 1875
Group Registration ID N/R
SR District/Reg Area Newry
Deceased Age at Death 74
Returns Year 1875
Returns Quarter 1
Returns Volume No 1
Returns Page No 802
BERNARD MCALINDON in 1871
Group Registration ID N/R
SR District/Reg Area Newry
Deceased Age at Death 78
Returns Year 1871
Returns Quarter 2
Returns Volume No 6
Returns Page No 579
The man who died age 60 in 1870 is a possibility for your Bernard, if his age at death is incorrect, which it usually is. (His son Peter was born in 1826)
But 7 years is a long time for the recordkeeping on the parcel to catch up with a death. It's usually a year or two.
You'd have to pay for the record. It should list the townland of death and informant, which often is a relative.
And, if your Ann Trainer and Bernard McLinden were from Clonduff, he might have died between the Tithe books and Griffiths. Then on Griffith's the land would be in the name of one of their sons who remained in Ireland.
Ann could have arrived in Scotland anytime between the 1861 census and 1871. Or even before 1861 and just not show up on the census. And she might not have left immediately after her husband's death. She might have stayed with her son until she and the children thought she would be better off with her daughter in Scotland.
For the deaths, I searched for just Bernard, no surname, Newry Registration District, 1864 to 1877. There were none that matched before 1870.
I'm just thinking out loud here, you have probably run through all these possibilities yourself.
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There are three deaths of Bernard McAlindens in Newry Registration District from 1870 to 1875, any of which could be that Bernard ...
I forgot you said he had died before his daughter Ellen married in 1867. So none of them is your ancestor.
There are burial records of Clonduff parish available from I think it said 1850. at nli.ie and type in Clonuff or Clonduff. But they are faded and pretty much unreadable. worth a try.
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Thank you for all the information.
We have checked census records for other names and the only Irish names living in the same household have married into the McLinden family. Other names are Scottish families that again they married into.
There was a brother James that we know of but we aren't sure whether he lived in Scotland or Ireland.
We also have christian names of Arthur, Dennis, Charles, Francis, Hugh, Cristina, Margaret, Katherine, Alexander, Joseph, and Agnes which seem to repeat themselves through at least 2 generations in Scotland but they could just as well be from the MacGuigan side.
Unfortunately the census records rarely include the area in Ireland. I only found the counties of Forkhill and Down from burial records.
I will follow your suggestions and see if I can locate any matches.
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Forkhill is not a county, it is a townland in Co Armagh, and is near Newry.
It borders Co Down
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Forkhill is not a county, it is a townland in Co Armagh, and is near Newry.
Forkhill (Forkill) is also a civil parish.
https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/forkill/
KG
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Thank you for the further information