RootsChat.Com

Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: dbrobertson on Sunday 20 January 19 20:05 GMT (UK)

Title: Joseph Elliott KNOX
Post by: dbrobertson on Sunday 20 January 19 20:05 GMT (UK)
My gr-great grandfather, Joseph Elliott KNOX was born in Ulster 10 Jun 1814. He emigrated to Canada (or 'Canaday' as he seemed to call it) in 1832. The birth date and emigration date are both taken from self-reporting on the 1901 Canada census (and elsewhere).

His father could be/should be named John, based upon Scottish naming patterns and his mother could be either/both Ann and/or Martha.

Family lore states that Joseph emigrated at age 17 in the company of two older brothers.

Not a lot to go on - which, I guess, is largely why we haven't discovered anything new on this KNOX
line in the last 40 years...

Brian
Title: Re: Joseph Elliott KNOX
Post by: aghadowey on Sunday 20 January 19 20:25 GMT (UK)
Ulster-Scots naming pattern only worked if a family followed it- not all did- and amongst those who did many events could change the order of names used.

What about Joseph's marriage? family Bible?, local histories?
Have you tried searching for other men called Knox in the area who also came from Ireland?
Title: Re: Joseph Elliott KNOX
Post by: dbrobertson on Sunday 20 January 19 20:38 GMT (UK)
aghadowey - Joseph married Catherine KNOX 19 Apr 1843 at Bristol, Canada East (Quebec). Catherine was born at Leitrim, County Fermanagh 20 Jun 1822. Despite having the same surname Joseph & Catherine stated that they were unrelated and met each other in Canada. Catherine's family emigrated in 1831. I didn't see anything of Joseph's KNOX family when I was researching his wife's ancestors in Fermanagh & Cavan.

The family Bible is good for the period 1843 to 1903 - the period about which lots is known.

Thanks,
Brian
Title: Re: Joseph Elliott KNOX
Post by: aghadowey on Sunday 20 January 19 20:45 GMT (UK)
When I said "Have you tried searching for other men called Knox in the area who also came from Ireland?" I meant in Canada not Ireland.

What were the names of Joseph's children? His middle name Elliott (quite common here to use surnames as first or middle names) which might be the maiden name of his mother or grandmother or the name of the local minister, doctor, schoolmaster, etc.
Title: Re: Joseph Elliott KNOX
Post by: dbrobertson on Sunday 20 January 19 21:14 GMT (UK)
Joseph & Catherine had a large family (in order):

John Matheson      KNOX
Rachel                  "
Ann                      "
Matilda                 "
James Matheson    "
William Elliott        "
Selena Jane          "
Catherine Ann       "
William Joseph      "
Margaret Sarah Lucinda KNOX
Isabella Lucinda             "
Robert Henry                 "
George Gordon (blood adoption)

The KNOX families settled in Pontiac County (then Lower Canada) in the early 1830s. The only 'other' KNOXes I've found have been Joseph's KNOX in-laws. There were also a number of MCDOWELLs (Catherine's maternal relations) who emigrated at this time.

Brian
Title: Re: Joseph Elliott KNOX
Post by: shanreagh on Wednesday 23 January 19 09:01 GMT (UK)
Joseph Knox appears in several censuses in Canada from 1851 through to 1901 and his birthdate varies by a few years from 1815 to 1818. He is Presbyterian, Church of Scotland or Free Church (wee Frees?)

If you look at the various places that the family went to in Canada you might be able to track down the brothers. I have seen John, Henry and Robert Knox.  Their religions range from Free Church, Wesleyan Methodist.  Once you find them you can see if they are related and you might find after searching for their marriages births of children that one has 'let slip' the actual County they came from.  Are you saying that these are relations of the wife Catherine Knox? The names of the children of the brothers may give some clues.  Also search local (Canadian) histories or newspapers to see if one has been a noteworthy figure as these accounts often say they 'arrived with brothers from  xxx' place.  Just by looking at the entries on FS I can see that John and Joseph Knox were both in Bristol Pontiac at the time of the 1861 census. Also the last child of Joseph is named Robert Henry. You also have some second names to fit in such as Elliott, Matheson (used twice) and also the doubling up of Lucinda (might be that the earlier one had died)

I have often found that by investigating laterally that you find clues/relations hiding in plain sight. 
Title: Re: Joseph Elliott KNOX
Post by: shanreagh on Wednesday 23 January 19 09:30 GMT (UK)
Returning to search in Ireland the Irish  records I go to, more to get  a flavour of the numbers of the family are the records of the Censuses.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/
There are at least 100 Knox names in Co Londonderry in 1831, apx 78 in 1851 in Co Antrim and 1900 in 1901. With the later censuses (1901/1911) I arrange the search by age as the oldest ones may have been a relation of the ones who emigrated. Also if you have explored the names in Canada thoroughly you may find that similar names are to be found in the Irish censuses.
and
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/
Here i look at Civil index for the earliest ones and also look at the Church records as some were mobile and may have lived in  Dublin or other parts of the south. 
Title: Re: Joseph Elliott KNOX
Post by: dbrobertson on Wednesday 23 January 19 15:31 GMT (UK)
shanreagh - Yes, William, John, Henry and Robert Knox are Catherine's older brothers (she also had seven sisters). So all the Pontiac County baptisms in those years are either Catherine's nieces/nephews or her children.

These Knoxes of Pontiac County are pretty well accounted for after the marriage in 1843. Several good (and two superlative) genealogists have worked on this line, including a third cousin who moved to Bristol, Quebec to do her in situ research late last century. Knox descendants live in the area to this day.
 
The enduring question has remained: who is Joseph Elliott Knox? People have theorized over the years
but nothing was revealed.

I guess my thought was that the internet has advanced enormously  in recent years, so I would have one more look to see what might be there.

Incidentally, Joseph & Catherines's grave site at Fort Langley had initially been adorned with a wooden marker. Said marker disappeared when I was a little boy, sometime in the 1940s. In 2009, the grave was re-dedicated on a sunny summer day to the wail of bagpipes.

But I still don't know anything more about my great-great grandpa Joseph than what he told us on the 1901 census: he was born 10 Jun 1814 in Ulster and emigrated in 1832.

All trails go cold eventually: this one just never got warm.

I shall poke around where you have suggested.

Thank you,
Brian




Title: Re: Joseph Elliott KNOX
Post by: BallyaltikilliganG on Wednesday 23 January 19 20:10 GMT (UK)
hi brian i have searched several sites for you the results even incomplete amount to nearly six page, even split into 4 parts its unacceptable via this website. if you write to me via pm giving me your email i will send it for your future use of negative [too strong a word] searches Jim
Title: Re: Joseph Elliott KNOX
Post by: shanreagh on Wednesday 23 January 19 21:24 GMT (UK)
I would also look for the names Matheson and Elliott unless you have found that these are related to Catherine Knox Knox.

Seeing as you know about Catherine's family this is a tip:

Write down the names of the children of Joseph and Catherine and then along side each write where it came from...ie Catherine may be for the mother, or other names may come from the mother's family.  This will then give you some that have come from somewhere else.

Also look up Irish naming patterns, they are slightly different from Scottish naming patterns though be aware of both.  With a strong Scots Presbyterian name like Knox they may have harked more to the Scots.  Then be aware of what Aghadowey says and that some names may have come from a person in the district that they parents thought highly of, a minister etc.

I would take with a grain of salt that the parents did not know each other or the families did not know each other before Canada. There were concerns about family intermarriage, from biblical writings in those days.   Emigration patterns often have others following from Irish distircts once the first have made the move.

Have you looked for possibilities for Joseph's family in the same Irish county as Catherine's?

I would try to find Joseph's brothers in Canada as a priority.
Title: Re: Joseph Elliott KNOX
Post by: dbrobertson on Thursday 24 January 19 00:32 GMT (UK)
I'm willing to be pleasantly surprised, but I doubt that Joseph travelled with 'older brothers'. They are never named, never seem to have identities, never left a mark on the historical record. That's why I called it 'family lore' - only slightly more believable than a companion piece of 'lore' that states Joe & Cathy met on the voyage over and had a mid-Atlantic shipboard romance.

Just my guess, but I think Joseph travelled alone. He was on the cusp of his 18th birthday and husky - no need for chaperones. My grandfather lived with Joe & Cathy in the 1890s and described Joe as 'skookum' and still capable of bucking & splitting a cord or two of firewood in his 80s (and this after a series of strokes had caused paralysis on his left side).

Catherine's branch of the Knox clan didn't recycle names very much. In-law lines like Carr, McDowell and Ferguson aren't reused and they didn't seem to assign middle names to their kids. The names they handed out were pretty generic - William, John, Ann, Catherine, Robert, Henry, Margaret, Rachel, Jane. Catherine's father James didn't even reassign his name (although last child Rachel carried her mother's name).

I also have some faded photocopies of photocopies of letters sent and received by Catherine's mother, Rachel {McDowell} Knox during the 1830s. No mention of 'other' Knoxes nearby during frontier times.
Title: Re: Joseph Elliott KNOX
Post by: shanreagh on Friday 25 January 19 08:04 GMT (UK)
I am still looking!  I am starting in  Co Fermanagh.

I have found a family in 1821 Census
Thomas Knox 35
Mary Knox 35
'Joh'* Knox 9
Susan 1
Margret 5
* Has been transcribed as 'Jesse' but don't think that is correct.

They are residing with a John Weer, a widower who is 70 and he says the couple are his son in law and daughter in law which makes me think the either john or Mary Knox may have been a son/daughter of his late wife. Seems odd to have both described as an in law? Can't think of another way to describe a relationship. 

John Weer is farmer living in Tedd, Derryvolland Co Fermangh.

Before I go any further I just wanted to check that this Joh/Jesse has not been 'claimed' by Catherine Knox Knox in the genealogical work you have already done on her family.

I love 'skookum' and see it is found in Pacific northwest and is from Chinook language.


 
Title: Re: Joseph Elliott KNOX
Post by: dbrobertson on Friday 25 January 19 17:06 GMT (UK)
Catherine Knox (20 Jun 1822 - 04 Jan 1903) her family:

Parents: James Knox (1775 - 28 Oct 1846)        born County Cavan
             Rachel McDowell (1782 - 26 Mar 1863) born County Cavan
             -  married  11 Feb 1806 Church of Ireland, Galloon Parish, County Cavan

James' parents are unknown. Rachel's parents are:
              Robert McDowell (1742 - 1819) born Tyrone County, died Ballinamallard County, was known as the 'Long McDowell' and served as a Methodist "class leader" under John Wesley for 37 years.
              Ann Carr (circa 1745 - ----) born County Fermanagh, married County Cavan

Rachel's siblings (all McDowells) are: Hannah (1783 - 1783), Samuel (26 Dec 1785 - 05 Aug 1850), Catherine (1790 - ----) and David (09 Aug 1795 - 27 Nov 1880) All born Ireland, died Canada (except Hannah).

Robert McDowell's parents are William John McDowell and Ann Jane Ferguson, born Ireland early in the 18th century (circa 1705 - 1710).

James Knox was also a Methodist class leader, serving in Pontiac County during the last years of his life.

I note that Joseph was not a popular Knox name - only the Eastern Canadian branch (Catherine's eldest brother William) reused the name.

Incidentally, the McDowell name has been pronounced 'Mik-dole' since their arrival nearly two centuries ago.

Chinook has largely died out, but one could still hear bursts of it on the streets of Vancouver or Seattle
mid-twentieth century. A couple of my uncles could speak it pretty well.

I hope details about Catherine's Knox bunch help in locating her husband Joseph (although I've never found linkages per se).

Brian
Title: Re: Joseph Elliott KNOX
Post by: dbrobertson on Sunday 27 January 19 22:18 GMT (UK)
Jim (BallyaltikilliganG) complained of Elliott/Knox spreadsheets provoking cross-eyedness. I think I've now caught it. The spreadsheets came to 19 pages when I printed them off. Tantalizing stuff - I see Margaret Elliott & William Knox both of the parish Derryvullan on the '1796 Flax Growers of Ireland'. Of the hundreds of Knoxes on these pages, only 4 Joseph Knoxes appear: the Joseph at Tereagh in 1830 is interesting.

Just too little known about Joseph E for any of this to jump out at me (although I notice some of Catherine's kin).

Shanreagh - there was an 1821 Irish census? I was unaware... Thomas & Mary Knox of Tedd, Derryvolland (per John Weer) are unknown to me, so could be Joe's parents. I'm curious - why do you think 9 year-old 'Joh' is not a Jesse?

Time to uncross my eyes.

Brian
Title: Re: Joseph Elliott KNOX
Post by: shanreagh on Sunday 27 January 19 23:02 GMT (UK)
Yes there was aan 1821 census.

All the census mnaterial is on this site

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/

Ther eis a down arrow and you can select the census you wnat. Many of the earlier ones are fragments only so having any entry in 1821 is rather special.  All of the Knox records are for Derryvullan/Derryvolland.

The census material also gives access to the originals.  When I look I see Joh/Jeh plus a fullstop ie Joh. that the recorder seems to use to show he has used an abbreviation.   I do not see the word Jesse.
Title: Re: Joseph Elliott KNOX
Post by: dbrobertson on Tuesday 29 January 19 19:58 GMT (UK)
Joh. is what I see. I don't know what abbreviations were standard (or usual) in Ulster two centuries ago, but Joh. most often seems to be 'John' abbreviated, while James is often 'Ja.' or 'Jas.' and Joseph is 'Jo' or 'Jos.' I think I even saw Jeffrey abbreviated to 'Jff.' one time.

So not Jesse, but not necessarily Joseph either.

Brian