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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Puffin81 on Sunday 20 January 19 22:14 GMT (UK)

Title: Keenan / oneil, Help with Irish births, marriage, army early 1800s
Post by: Puffin81 on Sunday 20 January 19 22:14 GMT (UK)
Iíve attached my tree, the highlighted part in red I donít believe to be correct, as I have obtained Bridgetís and bartholomews marriage certificate from 1958, which states my Patrick was dead by 1858.

From the certificate I know both the fathers are dead, bartholomews father was Thomas (church records states James). The Keenan father was a soldier and Patrick o Neil a general labourer.

The first time I see bartholomew on a British census is living in a tent in Carlisle in 1851, by this time the father is missing from the family group. 

I canít find Bridget without bartholomew with any confidence.

Both state they were born in Ireland, but I canít find birth records, nor can I find parents marriage or birth records, or anything I can be confident of being a keenan soldier record that belongs.

From the location of marriage I think they must have been catholic

How do I get back further? Can anyone help?

Title: Re: Help with Irish births, marriage, army early 1800s
Post by: Puffin81 on Sunday 20 January 19 22:26 GMT (UK)
Fathers details from certificate
Title: Re: Keenan / oneil, Help with Irish births, marriage, army early 1800s
Post by: shanreagh on Tuesday 22 January 19 09:22 GMT (UK)
I am not sure of the age of consent in 1858 or where the marriage took place.  I am assuming that you have found them on censuses or death certificates to work out approximately how old they were.  I mention this as it is by no means unknown that if a person was under age the age was put up to the age of consent as below that age fathers had to give consent. To forestall this happening the marriage participants gave the parent as dead as if the father was dead then he could not be contacted to give consent!  By all this I mean you need to independent verify the ages and not rely on the marriage certificate as the participants may have had reasons to fudge ages/dates etc. 

I am sure there will be records, if not of the parents specifically but of siblings etc, Usually when searching in ireland it is easiest if you know
1 the religion
2 the townland or even the county
3 a knowledge of Irish naming patterns. 

You can find out if the marriage took place in a Catholic church by looking at the place where the wedding took place and seeing if there are notations saying ...rites of the  Catholic church....or similar.  You can search for the place/church on line and you can also search to find out the religion of the person officiating. You should also pay close attention to the names of the witnesses. 

Do you know the names of any of the siblings of either Bartholomew or Bridget?  Often if following the Irish naming pattern then the names of children of the marriage may give a clue as to the names of parents parents.
Have you down any research to find out the County they came from in Ireland?

Also there are different ways of spelling O'Neil/O'Neal/O'Neale, Neal, Neale/O'Neill/Neill etc etc.  Keenan/Keenen/Keenon even seen it as Keelan etc.

If the parties signed their own signatures then you can be reasonably happy with searching under those names for a start. If they signed with a mark then it will be the version of the name that the priest was used to hearing that will be written down...so if he had many O'Neil parishioners then he would write O'Neil even if literate members of the family had called themselves O'Neal.

Title: Re: Keenan / oneil, Help with Irish births, marriage, army early 1800s
Post by: Puffin81 on Tuesday 22 January 19 18:28 GMT (UK)
Iíd never thought of that, I suppose in his case he could have been long gone, so easing for his wife to say he died, Iíll try searching the brothers and sisters especially the older ones who were around longer

On the signed part, thatís another odd thing the females are down as ďmark ofĒ but the males signed, but itís all in the same writing so they clearly didnít sign
Title: Re: Keenan / oneil, Help with Irish births, marriage, army early 1800s
Post by: Maiden Stone on Tuesday 22 January 19 20:52 GMT (UK)

On the signed part, thatís another odd thing the females are down as ďmark ofĒ but the males signed, but itís all in the same writing so they clearly didnít sign

Is this the original certificate, a photocopy of original certificate or a transcribed copy? From what source did you obtain it? If you sent for it from GRO it is likely to be a transcription rather than an original. Original certificates were kept at Local Record Offices. Have you compared the handwriting of bride, groom and witnesses with that of the clergyman? If they are all alike the handwriting is probably that of a clerk at a registry office .
A groom signing but a bride making her mark would have been common at the time. There was usually a fee for schooling when your Keenan and O'Neill bride & groom were children. If a family had pennies to spare each week for school the parents were more likely to spend it on a son than a daughter. Some British towns had Mechanics Institutes, forerunners of public libraries by mid 19th century. Churches organised evening classes and reading rooms to improve education and behaviour of their young men.

Father's consent (or that of mother or guardian if father was dead) was needed until age 21. (However I think there's a grey area if marriage was by banns.)
A girl could marry at 12 and a boy at 14 with consent of parents.
Title: Re: Keenan / oneil, Help with Irish births, marriage, army early 1800s
Post by: Maiden Stone on Tuesday 22 January 19 21:11 GMT (UK)
Iíve attached my tree, the highlighted part in red I donít believe to be correct, as I have obtained Bridgetís and bartholomews marriage certificate from 1958, which states my Patrick was dead by 1858.

From the certificate I know both the fathers are dead, bartholomews father was Thomas (church records states James). The Keenan father was a soldier and Patrick o Neil a general labourer.

The first time I see bartholomew on a British census is living in a tent in Carlisle in 1851, by this time the father is missing from the family group. 

I canít find Bridget without bartholomew with any confidence.

Both state they were born in Ireland, but I canít find birth records, nor can I find parents marriage or birth records, or anything I can be confident of being a keenan soldier record that belongs.

Marriage certificate from 1858 not 1958.  :)
Bartholomew's father may have been working away. He may have nipped back to Ireland.
Were the names Thomas and James as Bart's father from his marriage records? Have you seen an image of the church record or a transcription? If you've seen the image was the father's name abbreviated? Was it in English or Latin? Thomas was sometimes abbreviated to "Thos" and James to "Jas". Names of 2 fathers in my FT have been incorrectly transcribed; confusion between "Thos", "Jas" and "Jno" in old writing. Priests sometimes shortened Latin version.
Too early for birth registrations in Ireland.
Title: Re: Keenan / oneil, Help with Irish births, marriage, army early 1800s
Post by: Puffin81 on Tuesday 22 January 19 23:18 GMT (UK)

On the signed part, thatís another odd thing the females are down as ďmark ofĒ but the males signed, but itís all in the same writing so they clearly didnít sign

Is this the original certificate, a photocopy of original certificate or a transcribed copy? From what source did you obtain it? If you sent for it from GRO it is likely to be a transcription rather than an original. Original certificates were kept at Local Record Offices. Have you compared the handwriting of bride, groom and witnesses with that of the clergyman? If they are all alike the handwriting is probably that of a clerk at a registry office .
A groom signing but a bride making her mark would have been common at the time. There was usually a fee for schooling when your Keenan and O'Neill bride & groom were children. If a family had pennies to spare each week for school the parents were more likely to spend it on a son than a daughter. Some British towns had Mechanics Institutes, forerunners of public libraries by mid 19th century. Churches organised evening classes and reading rooms to improve education and behaviour of their young men.

Father's consent (or that of mother or guardian if father was dead) was needed until age 21. (However I think there's a grey area if marriage was by banns.)
A girl could marry at 12 and a boy at 14 with consent of parents.

Itís  all the same handwriting, but the men dint put their mark
Title: Re: Keenan / oneil, Help with Irish births, marriage, army early 1800s
Post by: Puffin81 on Tuesday 22 January 19 23:21 GMT (UK)
Iíve attached my tree, the highlighted part in red I donít believe to be correct, as I have obtained Bridgetís and bartholomews marriage certificate from 1958, which states my Patrick was dead by 1858.

From the certificate I know both the fathers are dead, bartholomews father was Thomas (church records states James). The Keenan father was a soldier and Patrick o Neil a general labourer.

The first time I see bartholomew on a British census is living in a tent in Carlisle in 1851, by this time the father is missing from the family group. 

I canít find Bridget without bartholomew with any confidence.

Both state they were born in Ireland, but I canít find birth records, nor can I find parents marriage or birth records, or anything I can be confident of being a keenan soldier record that belongs.

Marriage certificate from 1858 not 1958.  :)
Bartholomew's father may have been working away. He may have nipped back to Ireland.
Were the names Thomas and James as Bart's father from his marriage records? Have you seen an image of the church record or a transcription? If you've seen the image was the father's name abbreviated? Was it in English or Latin? Thomas was sometimes abbreviated to "Thos" and James to "Jas". Names of 2 fathers in my FT have been incorrectly transcribed; confusion between "Thos", "Jas" and "Jno" in old writing. Priests sometimes shortened Latin version.
Too early for birth registrations in Ireland.

Yes 1858 🤦‍♀️

I have the actual certificate, I wasnít sure if it was ok to post it up in its entirety.  I donít think Iím going to get beyond this point, unless there is a miracle

I know in 1861 his wife states she is a widow
Title: Re: Keenan / oneil, Help with Irish births, marriage, army early 1800s
Post by: Maiden Stone on Wednesday 23 January 19 02:09 GMT (UK)
Itís  all the same handwriting, but the men dint put their mark


Was Luke C...Ö. the clergyman? Capital C in his name resembles capital C in name of a witness. Without seeing the whole of his name I guess that the certificate was copied by a clerk. If it was copied correctly, then the bridegroom signed the original marriage certificate but the bride didn't. A few marriage certificates have initials of the clergyman or registrar who witnessed her making her mark next to her X.
Marriage certificates I have collected are from county registry office and are photocopies of original certificates, complete with inkblots, scratchy writing and uneven crosses.
Title: Re: Keenan / oneil, Help with Irish births, marriage, army early 1800s
Post by: Puffin81 on Wednesday 23 January 19 20:00 GMT (UK)
Itís  all the same handwriting, but the men dint put their mark


Was Luke C...Ö. the clergyman? Capital C in his name resembles capital C in name of a witness. Without seeing the whole of his name I guess that the certificate was copied by a clerk. If it was copied correctly, then the bridegroom signed the original marriage certificate but the bride didn't. A few marriage certificates have initials of the clergyman or registrar who witnessed her making her mark next to her X.
Marriage certificates I have collected are from county registry office and are photocopies of original certificates, complete with inkblots, scratchy writing and uneven crosses.

So itís not a photocopy of the original? They are re written? I think Lucas curry was the clergyman as I have a transcript of the church records, there is an MR after his name unsure What that means? 
Title: Re: Keenan / oneil, Help with Irish births, marriage, army early 1800s
Post by: Maiden Stone on Wednesday 23 January 19 21:00 GMT (UK)

So itís not a photocopy of the original? They are re written? I think Lucas curry was the clergyman as I have a transcript of the church records, there is an MR after his name unsure What that means?

It doesn't look original. Handwriting of all 5 signatures looks alike. They are all very neat. Small neat crosses. (Have you ever used a pen with a nib which had to be dipped in ink? I have - it takes a lot of practice to write neatly.) Capital K in Keenan in groom's signature is written same way as for father's name.
MR after clergyman's name. Minister of religion? Was wedding in a Catholic church? If it was, the letters may have been M. A. for Missionary Apostolic, or Latin equivalent, usually shortened to Miss. Apost. If it wasn't in a Catholic church the letters might still have been M.A. for Master of Arts, if the clergyman had a university degree.
Is it the transcript of the church marriage register which has the groom's father as James? It may be an incorrect transcription (Jas/Thos) or a registrar has made a mistake in copying somewhere in the chain. If the marriage was in a Catholic church there should have been a registrar in attendance at the church for the marriage to be valid. Two (or is it 3?) registers would have been signed; one was the church's copy and remained at the church; the registrar would have taken one away with him to the registry office.
Title: Re: Keenan / oneil, Help with Irish births, marriage, army early 1800s
Post by: Puffin81 on Wednesday 23 January 19 21:18 GMT (UK)
It was catholic

The transcript from the church is transcribed by the records office, I wonder if I can get a photocopy for myself, might help

Title: Re: Keenan / oneil, Help with Irish births, marriage, army early 1800s
Post by: Maiden Stone on Thursday 24 January 19 00:51 GMT (UK)
Have you located marriages of siblings to find out what name they put for father?
 If the letter h was missed from Thomas, like in the Irish version of the name, it might look like James in the church register. (One of my English ancestors signed tomas in the marriage register. His handwriting was clear, round and childlike. A priest who baptised one of his sons didn't write as clearly, consequently Thomas' name was transcribed as John. His name is correct for baptisms of 9 other children and for all 10 of their marriages.)
What were Bartholomew's sons called? He may have called one of his elder sons after his father.

I noticed that Bartholomew's first name in his signature seems to end in "ey". He may have been known by family and friends as Barty or Batty. That, to my mind is an indication that he signed the original certificate himself. Is it Bartholomew on the top part of the certificate?
Do you know the identities of the witnesses? Could they have been relatives?
Title: Re: Keenan / oneil, Help with Irish births, marriage, army early 1800s
Post by: shanreagh on Thursday 24 January 19 06:22 GMT (UK)
In some of my research in Ireland I have seen Batholomew spelt as Bartholomey and Bartholomeu. Could be Bart/ Barty etc
Title: Re: Keenan / oneil, Help with Irish births, marriage, army early 1800s
Post by: Maiden Stone on Sunday 27 January 19 19:32 GMT (UK)
Have you located marriages of siblings to find out what name they put for father?
 
Do you have the marriage of Bartholomew's brother or sister? Preferably both. You need them for further evidence about name of their father and possibly whether he was recorded as deceased on their marriage certificates.
 
Title: Re: Keenan / oneil, Help with Irish births, marriage, army early 1800s
Post by: Puffin81 on Sunday 27 January 19 20:57 GMT (UK)
Have you located marriages of siblings to find out what name they put for father?
 
Do you have the marriage of Bartholomew's brother or sister? Preferably both. You need them for further evidence about name of their father and possibly whether he was recorded as deceased on their marriage certificates.

No the only one Iím certain of as being a sibling I canít find a record for as they got married in Ireland.