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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Breconshire => Topic started by: Llanfihangel on Tuesday 22 January 19 22:01 GMT (UK)
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Hi!
Jenkin Williams had brothers Thomas, John, and Richard all wealthy landowners in Llandeilo Graban, Crickardarn, and Llandefalle in the late 1700s.
There are wills at the Library of Wales for Thomas Williams, owner of Velyn Newydd, Llandefalle, and Skreen Llandeilo Graban, Radnorshire and Richard Williams of Crickardarn who both died 1792/3.
They both refer to brother Jenkin Williams who seems to have taken up a mortgage for 2000 pounds on Skreen for Thomas Williams, and to have borrowed 200 pounds by bond from Richard Williams.
Richard Williams left small inheritances to Richard Williams, Thomas Williams and Elinor Williams all CHILDREN of Jenkin Williams who was still alive in 1792. This money to be paid after Jenkin Williams death
I can't find any records of Thomas Williams the son of Jenkin Williams (or much about the father Jenkin Williams). I think Thomas would have been born around 1775, probably in Llandefalle.
I would like to have any data on Thomas Williams and his father Jenkin Williams.
I have been researching events at Skreen Farm (tenant David Pugh) and William Williams who married a daughter of David Pugh in 1792 and went to Ohio. There were several emigrants from that area to Radnor Ohio around 1810.
Thomas Williams might have been one of them!
Thanks once again....
Llanfi :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
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The NLW has a collection of Skreen and Velin Newydd Deeds.
One is Probate of the will of Jenkin (also Jinkin) Williams of p. Dorstone, Herefordshire, dated 3 May 1813. Testator bequeathed as follows: One third of my real property equally between my three sisters, Elizabeth, Mary and Hannah. Residue to my brother Samuel Beavan Williams, whom I appoint sole executor. Witnesses: George Evans, Elizabeth Evans.
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Hello Mabel!
Thank you for so thoroughly researching those documents at the NLW. I subsequently reviewed them myself, and didn't find another reference to Jenkin Williams, so I went back to have another look at Thomas Williams will of 1792.
It states that he owned an property called the Willbrook Estate in the Parish of Peterchurch Hereford. It was to become his after the death of his mother Bridget Williams. Thomas instructed "John Hughes and Hugh Bold" to SELL Willbrook as soon as he that happened. The Proceeds were to be applied to repayment of a 2000 pound mortgage that he had previously obtained from Jenkin Williams.
It is possible that Jenkin was living at Willbrook with his mother in 1792, and might have acquired the estate after she died. Dorstone is a couple of miles North of Peterchurch, and Willbrook Manor is a couple of miles South.
Judging from the interior of Willbrook Manor (see attached), Jenkin would have been well advised to move elsewhere, so it is highly likely that he moved to Dorstone, where his will was made.
There is a good description of Willbrook on the Web, it is currently owned by the Vivat Trust
So I think this is the Jenkin Williams, brother of Thomas Williams Skreen and Velyn Newydd.
Thomas seems to have been in a financial mess when he made his will in 1792, and I think it was the beginning of the end of the Family estates. Thomas had a liability of 2000 pounds to Jenkin, at the same time bequeathing thousands to his sons John and Thomas and two daughters Elizabeth and Bridgett.
There is no mention of Jenkin Williams children anywhere on-line that I can find, so his son Thomas could well remain a mystery.
Thanks for your help... it provided me with a lot more information on the Williams family of Skreen etc.
My very best regards
llanfi :) :) :) :) :)
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IS THERE ANY CHANCE MY JENKIN WILLIAMS (BORN 1862-1887) IS RELATED TO THIS FAMILY. DIED AT THE DINAS STEAM COLLIERY ON 5 JANUARY 1887. MARRIED SUSANNAH EVANS IN 1883. HAD 2 SONS BEFORE HE DIED (DANIEL WILLIAMS 29 JUNE. 1883 BORN IN TYNEWYDD WALES AND ISAAC WILLIAMS BORN OCTOBER 1886). MOTHER, SUSANNA, AND 2 SONS IMMIGRATED TO SCRANTON, PA (March 1886) AND DIED in SCRANTON,PA.
FATHER AND SPOUSE TO SUSANNA , JENKIN WILLIAMS BURIED IN UNMARKED GRAVE AT TREALAW, CEMETERY (BURIAL 1433- PLOT-J981). CAN ANYONE HELP?, PLEASE. ???
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What is Jenkins Fathers name/occp from the 1883 Marriage Cert?
Trish :)
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more info in this post and there are others
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=696669.54
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Ordered marriage cert in April, Have not received the cert yet so I do not have his father's name.
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did you order it as a pdf? In which case, you need to go into your GRO account and look for My Orders, the pdf will be there and you can view & download it.
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Llanfihangel,
Have you checked "Welsh Journals" https://journals.library.wales/search/advanced
Found a reference to a Jenkin Williams, Velin Newydd, sheriff of Brecknockshire, 1739. Also mention of a Jenkin Williams, Llandefalle - but this was 17th Century.
Check variations in spelling (velin/velyn/felin etc; crickadarn/crucadarn etc)
Note - if search key more than one word, wrap the search key with " " (eg "velin newydd") - else it searches on each separate word.
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item ordered as E/W marriage certificate. COL 516964/2019. Do not understand the length of time it takes to get documentations. Ordered April 28. Was suppose to be dispatched 21 May, As of yesterday's mail June 1, not received. Thought it was ordered one other time never received it. I have been billed and paid for it. ???? confusing. ??? ::)
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have you contacted the GRO to ask about it?
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Hi Ospry,
Yes, sent and e-mail. They sent an automatic reply - to check inquiry. Will not make a long distance call to England (too expensive)
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I have a problem locating Jenkin Williams of Peterchurch and Dorstone. I have traced him from his Daughter Hannah Beavan Williams baptised 1796 in Peterchurch. Hannah's mother was Williams and she had sisters Fortune and Mary and possibly Elizabeth. Also a brother Thomas Beavan Williams baptised 1791 at Peterchurch. There is an admon at Hereford Archives giving sole rights of exectorix to Mary Williams widow of Jenkin Williams. Date of death of Jenkin was 14 May 1810 at Dorstone. Seems they left Peterchurch and moved to Dorstone. This does not seem to correspond to the Jenkin Williams Will dated 1813 at Dorstone. Suggests two Jenkin Williams in Dorstone.
Hereford Archives also has a will and admon dated 1824 for a Jenkin Williams of Dorstone son of the late Jenkin Williams of Bage. I can only find a Bach near Dorstone which may have been written as Bage by a non welsh speaking cleric. This second will was attached to an admon making Mary Williams his mother executor with Mary claiming he did not make a will. However, his brother Samuel Beavan Williams claimed there was a will naming him as executor. This resulted in the three sisters sharing a third of the proceeds. This seems to be similar to the 1813 will at NLW. However, this gives a further extension to the family I am looking for with Hannah four siblings being baptised at Peterchurch and her elder brothers Jenkin and Samuel Beavan born elsewhere. Could this have been Llandefalle??. Jenkin Williams the son died in 1822 according to his will aged 38 years. This would suggest a birth around 1774. I would appreciate anybody with access to Llandefalle looking this up
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FindMyPast Marriages (image)
A Jenkin Williams married a Mary Beavan at Newchurch, Radnorshire on 10 Feb 1782. New Church north of Dorstone/Bage. One of the witnesses was a Samuel Beavan. I recall seeing "Samuel Beavan, Proctor" recorded in an earlier marriage ceremony within the register. Need to re-check.
The Jenkin Williams, died 1822, age 38, would have been born 1784, not 1774 as posted?
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Thanks Hanes teulu. A birthyear of 1784 makes a goof fit with the information I already have. There seems a lot of intermarriage between cousins in these families. I assume that was common at the time
Redkite 23
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Hi,
Have a look at Elizabeth Williams (Skreen) will of 1749 It can be viewed on-line at the Library of Wales
Elizabeth bequeathed 100 pounds to each of the four children of her niece Fortune married to Samuel Beavan
Their names were Samuel, Elizabeth, John and Fortune...
There are many more relatives mentioned there
Cheers,
Llanfi :) :) :) :) :)
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Thanks Llanfi. That is extremely useful.
Redkite23
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FindMyPast has transcribed the baptismal details of a -
Mary Beavan, May 13th 1763, place Newchurch, Radnorshire, father Samuel, mother not recorded. However, looking at the original I am pretty sure the mother's name is "Fortune" - but difficult to make out. Might well be I am seeing what I want to see - easily done!
On the same page - before the year "1763" - is an entry for the baptism of a Thomas Beavan, 25th September (no year present against any entry), place Newchurch, father Sam'l (looks like) and mother Fortune. FindMyPast has transcribed the year as "1754.
I looked at the previous page which is headed "1754" but I think there may be some confusion re. the order of the documents.
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The ink has faded and not easy to read. There are some earlier baptisms in better ink and writing
Samuel bp 13 March 1742 son of Samuel & Fortune
Elizabeth bp 25 April 1744 daughter of Samuel & Fortune
Fortune bp 11 Sept 1748 daughter of Samuel & Fortune
from the less clear pages of the register
William bp 20 March 1755
? son 1758 son of Samuel & Fortune
Ann? bp 1759 daughter of Samuel & Fortune
further back, possible baptism for Samuel Bevan 12 April 1721, son of Samuel & Hannah on the same day that Samuel, the father, was buried.
NLW has marriage bonds for
Samuel Beavan gent, Newchurch, Radnorshire and Fortune Williams, spinster, Llandeilo Graban 18 May 1742
Samuel Beavan, Newchurch, Radnorshire and Hannah Cleiro, Radnorshire 11 Jan 1708.
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Thanks Osprey
The 1742 18 May Marriage bond between Samuel Beavan and Fortune Williams is important to me as I have been following the Williams Family tree on Theophilius Jone's book Brecknockshire published in 1809 (e-book on google) p320 is written oddly on the right hand side but is a line of siblings starting with Jenkin Williams Jnr then Samuel Williams right down via a right angle bend to Hannah. Which is my point of entry into this line. The information I have only makes sense if Jenkin Williams married Mary daughter of Samuel Beavan of Ty'n y cwm not Elizabeth as with Jones. I am a little reluctant to claim the eminent Theophilius Jones wrong. Samuel Beavan's marriage bond to Fortune Williams supports the case that Jones was incorrect and the list of Radnorshire Sheriffs showing Samuel Beavan of Ty'n y cwm Newchurch in 1766 also supports this as Mary was born in Newchurch. (Parish register does not mention Ty'n y cwm). Sheriffs seem to have been popular in this family. John Williams of Skreen was Sheriff of Brecon in 1736 and Jenkin Williams of Llandefalle Sheriff of Brecon in 1739 and now a Sheriff of Radnorshire in 1766. Anybody got any views on challenging Theophilius Jone's version especially as it may only have been a minor error but leaves a loose end which I do not like.
Another question is did this branch of the Williams family have any connection to the Jenkin Williams on the sale notice of Wellbrook Manor in 1802.?
One point I have noticed Samuel Beavan and Fortune Williams were married in May 1742 but had a son in March 1742. The year end was changed in 1842 with25th March being last day of the year. So March 1742 would be nearly a full year before May 1842. On modern 31 st Dec year end marriage would have been May 1742 birth would have been March 1743.
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Hi,
I have found two more wills at the Library of Wales
Elizabeth Williams 1767 Llandefalle Breconshire
https://viewer.library.wales/555216#?c=0&m=0&s=0&cv=0&xywh=103%2C445%2C1953%2C1296
I this will Elizabeth bequeaths all of her estate in Clifford Herefordshire to her godson Jenkin Williams (son of Thomas Williams, Skreen, Llandeilo Graban, Radnor) and fifty pounds each to Elizabeth Beavan and Fortune Beavan the daughters of Samuel Beavan Gent. of Newchurch in Radnorshire
The other will of Thomas Williams 1792 Llandefalle has many references to his brother Jenkin Williams (not Beavan!) , who has a hold of two thousand pounds on Thomas's Estate.
https://viewer.library.wales/669069#?c=0&m=0&s=0&cv=5&xywh=327%2C462%2C2363%2C1568
On page three of the will he states that his estate will inherit Willbrook in the Parish of Peterchurch on the death of his mother Bridget Wiiliams. On her death he directs Hohn Hughes and Hugh Bold to sell Willbrook and apply the proceeds towards the debt owing to Jenkin Williams on his estate in Radnor.
Onn page four Thomas directs that after the sale of Willbrook and the release of the debt to Jenkin Williams the whole of his estate shall be sold and the proceeds divided between his children and other relatives..
I think that was near the end of the long-standing and prosperous era of the Williams families at Skreen and Velin-Newyd.
It is possible that His son Thomas Williams emigrated to America after that, but there is no sign at all of that happening, as far as I can see.
Nevertheless there were many from that immediate area (Llandeilor Graban, Erwood, Gwenddwr, and Crickardarn) who emigrated to Radnor Ohio about that time.... Including David Pugh, Mary Pugh, and Isabella Pugh from Skreen Farm, Llandeilo Graban (not Skreen Manor, where the wealthy Williams's lived). There was also William Williams son of the Rev. John Williams, who married Isabella Pugh and went to Ohio as early as 1790.
Maybe the Williams family bankrolled David Pugh in order to buy a few thousand acres of land around Radnor Ohio in 1802 (see David Pugh, pioneer, Radnor Ohio)
Best regards to you all... :) :) :) :) :) :)
Llanfi
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Hi Llanfihangel
I think your correct- this is the end of the line for the wealthy end of the Williams of Felin Newydd and Skreen. I have a burial date for Bridget Williams of 15th March 1802 in Peterchurch age 85 which makes her birth about 1717. Also there is an abstract at Canterbury passing all her wealth to her son Jenkin Williams except for £60 to her maid. Just before the sale of Willbrook there were the grandchildren of Bridget (offspring of Thomas in 1792 will you found). Most got £1000 pounds from their father. There were 2 boys George the youngest died in 1801, Thomas (did not go to America) was a officer in the army ,killed in 1803. There were 2 girls. Elizabeth who married the Rev Eckley (A name I have come across before somewhere) and a daughter Bridget-who I cannot find anywhere. I presume the rest from the sale went to repay Jenkin Williams who then moved to Dorstone and bought his own farm (died 1809 aged 52).
The Williams family before 1760 seems worthy of investigation -who was the Elizabeth Williams in the 1767 will ? She stated that she was a widow so which Williams did she marry? and why leave money to Fortune and Elizabeth Beavan and not Mary Beavan ? I think I will eventually look at 1700 to 1760 at some time in the future.
Redkite23
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Hello Redkite,
Here is a bit more about the Williams of Velinnwyd Breconshire, see attached.
There are Williams's and Vaughans all over the south-west of Breconshire. There was an especially wealthy family of Williams's at Penpont a few miles west of Brecon. The Library of Wales has this:
"In 1660 Daniel Williams, son of the Rev. John Williams (1580-1657), a descendant of the Williams family of Abercamlais, Breconshire, built the Penybont mansion and founded the Penpont branch of the family. The estate then descended in the male line, each heir being called Penry. The last male heir was Penry Boleyne Williams who died unmarried in 1893. According to the 1873 return of owners of land, Penry Williams of Penpont owned an estimated 7,010 acres, all in Breconshire, with an estimated annual rental of £4,370"
Cheers,
Llanfi :) :) :) :)
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Hi Thanks for the information-I will need to digest it. There are some things that need checking with John Williams and Jenkin Williams (who left a will in 1754). How were they linked to the Bois family and is there any evdence? Also I came across an advert in a London paper of 1779 which advertised the sale 0f 892 Oak trees on the Willbrooke estate of John Delahay in Peterchurch. Was the Esate being sold off in parcels and could this be the moment Thomas Williams acquired Willbrooke Manor House by borrowing £2000 from Jenkin Williams? It's an interesting thought.
I will leave those questions for now as I am overwhelmed with Williams, in Breconshire, Herefordshire and Radnorshire where there is a possibility of some connections. However,there is another group of Williams stretching down the Conway Valley in North Wales who I am certain are not connected but are also my ancestors.
Redkite23
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Also I came across an advert in a London paper of 1779 which advertised the sale 0f 892 Oak trees on the Willbrooke estate of John Delahay in Peterchurch. Was the Esate being sold off in parcels and could this be the moment Thomas Williams acquired Willbrooke Manor House by borrowing £2000 from Jenkin Williams? It's an interesting thought.
I doubt the estate was being sold off. Usually these adverts are selling the trees for their timber (buyer to harvest) but not the land they are standing on
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Hello Redkite,
Any chance that your Williams ancestors are on Rea Williams Website?
I am somehow related to Ellissey ap William ap Hugh of Ciltalgarth Merionethshire, North Wales.
Rea's ancestors emigrated to America in the mid 1600s, but Ellis ap William ap Hugh had a well -researched ancestry back to Madog in the 1500s. Rea's family assumed the name Williams in America.
Rea unfortunately died a couple of years ago, but his astounding research of the various Williams families are still on the Web. Worth looking at if you haven't already done so!!
http://rea-williams.com/getperson.php?personID=I17739&tree=tree1
Cheers!
Llanfi :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
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Hello Mabel
In most cases I would agree with you that the Timber and land would have been sold separately. It is just the number of trees (892) that made me speculate otherwise. On today's prices this number of trees is worth over £10 million.Would somebody have put that amount of oak on the market at one time. The methods of harvesting were slower then and it would have taken at least a year to clear the land. This seems to me to be an investment opportunity where the trees would be felled when market conditions were most advantageous. There is also evidence at Gwent Archives that the Delahey estate was contracting around 1800. The estate in the 1600s consisted of four manors with Willbrooke being one of them. By 1903 there was only one Urishay Castle a fortified Manor House. By 1927 Urishay was in ruins.
All this is pure speculation as my own focus is only the question of how did Thomas Williams acquire Willbrooke. We know Thomas Williams(father of Thomas and Jenkin) married the daughter of .... Smith of Peterchurch. It now seems this was Bridget Williams nee Smith. Did she have a connection to the Delaheys ? as that would open a new root to my family tree. After all both the Williams and Delahey families provided Sheriffs for their respective counties so the social standing would have been similar.
Redkite23
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Hi Llanfihangel.
I can only trace The North Wales Williams in my family tree to 1731 with William ap William. Further back it is all patronymics which I am struggling with.
Redkite23
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Hi Llanfihangel.
I have been through the information you put on line and have the following comments.
1) I did not know Thomas Williams (soldier died 1803) had a surviving son.
2) Same mistake as Theophilius Jones with Jenkin Williams married Elizabeth Beavan. It was Mary. For the record the evidence is at The NLW as a Radnorshire marriage bond, Newchurch, feb 9th 1782. I find that mistakes become perpetuated especially in online family trees.
3) William Bois (or William ap Jenkins) had two sons William Williams of Velin newydd and his younger brother John Williams of Skreen. William Williams had two surviving children Jenkin and Gwillian. The article you placed online states that this Gwenillian married her cousin John Williams but John Williams was her Uncle not cousin. Jenkin Williams left a will in 1754 leaving substantial bequests to HIS nieces Ann and Fortune. They could only be HIS nieces if they were his sisters children. So it seems the extract is correct and John Williams married his niece. Was this legal? or was there some cross breeding in the family to make sure property remained within the family- which certainly happened with the English Gentry.
Like the situation with Willbrooke I am as interested in how my ancestors lived as much as the strict genealogy. With most of my ancestors there is not enough information available as there is in the case of the Williams.
Redkite23
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Something of a mystery! I completed a post Friday but it seems to have disappeared into the ether.
The gist of the post was about the Thomas Williams, 1737 "... gent steward of the said mannor", the said manor being " ... Mannor of Willbrook alias Wirkbrook.". A Thomas Williams, steward, is mentioned 1734-1737.
Wondered what link, if any, there might be to the Thomas Williams that purchased Willbrook manor house"? The source of the info was "The History of Ewyas Lacy - Manorial Court records for the manors of Clothy Hopkin, Urishay, Trenant and Wellbrook"
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Hi Hanes Teulu
You may be right but it needs investigating. I had initially written this line off as not connected with the Skreen and Llandefalle Williams . However, Jones book in 1809 states the first Thomas Williams (owner of both Felin Newydd and Skreen) died in 1779 aged 61 giving a birth year of 1718. His son also Thomas Williams was born in 1755 while his brother Jenkin Williams was born in 1757. There seems a long gap between 1718 and 1755. Enough time for another Thomas Williams perhaps. I do not think this is likely but there is enough to suggest it should be looked into.
N.B. Where did you get a copy of The History of Ewyas Lacy from ? It is part of the Ancient lands of Archenfield and given a Charter by King John to fight 160 days against the Welsh and 160 days against the English. Apparently the Charter has never been withdrawn. I always wished I was born there but alas I was not.
Redkite23
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https://www.ewyaslacy.org.uk
I searched for "willbrook" and alternatives
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Hello Redkite,
You will be fascinated by
"The King's Daughter" digitised at the Library of Wales!
https://journals.library.wales/view/1164385/1165128/64#?xywh=-1949%2C-206%2C6395%2C3894
Cheers,
Llanfi :) :) :) :)
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Hi Hanes Teulu
The Ewyas Lacy site has a lot of info but the Thomas Williams was Steward of Wilbrook in 1737. That would mean his birth was much earlier. If there is a connection between the Willbrook and Llandevalle Williams it would have been Thomas Williams born circa 1718 son of John Williams. A connection is still possible but looks unlikely.
Redkite23
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Hi Hanes Teulu
The Ewyas Lacy site has a lot of info but the Thomas Williams was Steward of Wilbrook in 1737. That would mean his birth was much earlier. If there is a connection between the Willbrook and Llandevalle Williams it would have been Thomas Williams born circa 1718 son of John Williams. A connection is still possible but looks unlikely.
Redkite23
Thanks for the response. That it was 1737 is why I queried a possibel link!
Chasing Thomas Williamses in that neck of the woods is a nightmare - in fact, chasing that name anywhere presents problems.
Re. "The King's Daughter" and Anne Williams I had been reading a great deal on Welsh Journals about Howell Harris and his wooing of Anne - for example the Trefecca letters. Stiil , true love won through in spite of all the obstacles.
regards
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Hanes Teulu
Hello
I looked further into your idea of Thomas Williams 1737 Steward of Willbrooke. There was also a Jenkin Williams who served on the Leet Court Jury of 1737-1739 for Willbrooke Manor and and his wife actually appeared at the Leet Court in 1744. Jenkin Williams had 2 daughters in Peterchurch -Ann in 1725 and Mary in 1728. Mother was Cecelia in the first one and Sissy in the second-looks like the same mother. I cannot decide if this family line of Williams is relevant but I am tending toward the view that it is not.
Redkite23
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Hi Llanfihangel
Thanks for the extract from Thomas Nicholls which I have now gone through in detail. There are some discrepancies with Theophilius Jones's version. Back to the marriage of John Williams of Skreen to Gwenillian Williams sister of Jenkin Williams of Felin Newydd they agree. Then one has them as brothers of William Williams and the other as sons of William Williams. I have come across a will for Jenkin Williams dated 1713 which may be relevant. This Jenkin lived on a farm in Llandefalle but was not part of the Felin Newydd estate.(I cannot read the name). However, he left his lands to his wife Mary and hen his daughter Mary on his wifes death . The interesting point is the executor-Mr John Williams of Felin Newydd, Gent. Felin Newydd was in the possession of Jenkin Williams not John at this time. I think that Jenkin Williams of Felin Newydd did have a brother John but it was not the John Williams of Skreen who married Gwenilian . I am starting to think John Williams of Skreen was from a different Williams Family based in Radnorshire. On both Jones and Nicholas lineages there is no other indication of how the Williams of Felin Newydd acquired the Skreen properties.
This is another topic really as it is around 1700. It may require several visits to NLW so I will leave it for now. Any thoughts on this as I see you are also looking for a Rev John Williams. Too many Williams I think!
Redkite23
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think the farm name is Trehenry.
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Hello Redkite
Redkite refers to the Red Kites of the Rheidol Valley?
Anyway.
I think I have found the genesis of Jenkin Williams'' the Williams family of Felyn Newydd and Skreen
It is hardly legible but is contained in the Will of Jenkin Williams, Llandefalle, 1660
Se attached
Jenkin Williams describes his "natural father" a couple of times... on the second page he identifies his father as William Jenkins.. natural means that Jenkin was an illegitimate son of William Jenkins
The will refers to a property (Mansion) known as "New Mill",,,,, English for Velyn (Felyn) Newydd, A codicil leaves New Mill to Jenkins wife
I have visited both Felyn Newydd and Skreen on a trip to Wales... They are completely different... Felyn Newydd is a "traditional" ostentatious mansion. Skreen is more of a very high class farm house, with a commanding view of the River Wye in Erwood Radnorshire. Skreen is on the bank of the Wye on the Radnor/Breconshire border a couple of miles North of Crickardarn
Cheers,
Llanfi :) :) :)
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Hello Redkite
Here is a Jenkin William Llandefalle writing Roger Vaughan's will posthumously as well as witnessing his inventory in 1702 Llandefalle Breconshire...
I think it is the same one.. the handwriting of the Will itself is accomplished and the signature is very refined
Note that he names himself Jenkin William not Williams
Cheers,
Llanfi :) :) :) :)
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Hi Llanfihangel
Wow you have come up with a lot of information. I have read it twice and still cannot fully understand it. Jenkin Williams son of William Jenkins seems straightforward from the patronymic system where father is William ap Jenkin and son is Jenkin ap William. Grandfather would have been Jenkin ap (Unknown name). I am guessing this was Jenkin Thomas. However, Jones and Nicholls claim the Thomas name was on the female line. i.e. William Jenkins mother was the daughter of Jenkin Thomas and the patronymic system would not have produced the name Jenkin Williams. However the will shows Jenkin Williams did not fully understand welsh custom as he uses the word melyn for Crickbardarn Mill. It should be Melin as in Melin Gwynt (Windmill). Velyn should be Felin as M and F mutate depending on other words in the sentence. If the Jenkins Williams line were not welsh speakers there may be a case for going from Jenkin Thomas to Jenkin William in their understanding. I note he uses William and not Williams. I am not sure why but it is a straight take from his father William(with no s) Jenkins.
Complicated but I think there is something there.You may well have found the Genesis of this section of the Williams family. I still hope to go to NLW as there are deeds there for Skreen and Felin Newydd. They may show some light on this. I am not sure what Melyn Crickbardarn is doing in this will as I cannot read it properly. What is your view of the will?
Sorry to disappoint you but redkite does not come from the Rheidol Valley. It comes from the Wye Valley and in particular a public house called "The Red Kite" where I misspent part of my youth -many many years ago.
Redkite23
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Hello Redkite!
You say "William Jenkins mother was the daughter of Jenkin Thomas and the patronymic system would not have produced the name Jenkin Williams"
Here is the will of Jenkin Williams "natural brother" Edward... "William Parry Edward" 1662 at the Library of Wales
He is living in Vellinewydd and his executor is Elizabeth .... Jenkin William's wife,
Maybe he was a Parry (ap Harry)????
https://viewer.library.wales/732592#?c=0&m=0&s=0&cv=2&xywh=-153%2C79%2C2175%2C1764
Cheers,
??? ??? ???
Lanfi
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Hello Redkite,
I had a look at Jenkin Williams will 1717 and I am pretty sure the farm is called "Tir Brechva" the will states that Jenkin had purchased the farm from John Williams Fellin Newydd.... He appointed his daughter Mary as executrix
I saw the name Brechfa somewhere else in the search but I can't place it right now...
This Jenkin Williams is probably not a close relative of John Williams of Velyn Newydd Gent
Cheers,
Llanfi
:) :) :) :) :) :)
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Hello Redkite..
I think you will find a lot of the answers in this will of John Williams of Llaneglwys Gwenddwr Breconshire 1728.
It turns out that Jenkin Williams of Felin Newydd is (this) John Williams brother, and that (this) John's sister Gwenllian Williams had married another John Williams of Skreen Radnor. Gwenllian and John Williams of Skreen had children John, Thomas, William, Ann, Mary, and Fortune as of 1728. Nieces and Nephews of John Williams Llaneglwys...
Cheers,
Llanfi :) :) :) :) :)
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Hi Llanfi
Thanks for the two replies. I will begin with the first.
Yes I have got that wrong (I don't like admitting I am wrong but in this case will make an exception).
According to Theophilius Jones William Jenkins married Jenkin Thomas's daughter so she was not his mother as I first thought. Secondly I see from Jones that William Jenkins father was Jenkin Bois. So William Jenkins son -Jenkin Williams does follow the patronymic system if you put in the aps. I still do not understand how Jones goes from Bois to Williams but I will leave that until later. Of more immediate use is the will of Jenkin Williams of Tir Brefach. How you could decipher that I do not know. The John Williams of Llaneglwys Will does provide a lot of answers and as I suspected shows the Felin Newydd Williams and the Skreen Williams were different families. So far I have been able to go back with confirmatory evidence to the Children of Gwenillian Williams and John Williams of Skreen but have not seen evidence for the Marriage of John and Gwenillian.
The 1717 Will introduces another problem. John Williams of Felin Newydd sold him the property but the 1754 Will of Jenkin Williams suggests he was the owner of Felin Newydd not John Williams in this period. There is probably some explanation of this.
I think I need to look at this one generation at a time so the Gwenillian and John Williams of Skreen generation will be my next target. I am going to NLW tomorrow as they have Bishops Transcripts for Llandefalle over this period. If I have time I will try and go through their collection of deeds for Skreen and Llandefalle though this may require a second visit.
Redkite 23
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Hello Redkite
Good luck at The Library... Take a digital camera; They charge an arm and a leg for hard copies!!
I found a couple of references to Jenkin Williams... Tucker... maybe his knowledge of milling helped at New Mill.
Also Brechfa (and probably Brechfa Farm) is only a mile away from Felin Newydd
Cheers,
Llanfi
:) :) :) :) :) :)
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Hi Llanfi
Having visited NLW I am now even more confused. I went through the Bishops Transcripts for Llandefalle. There are some years missing but there seems to be another Jenkin Williams. He married Elizabeth Lewis in 1774 and had a son William in 1776 who died in 1787 and then Thomas. It is just about possible that this is the Jenkin Williams who went to Peterchurch but I cannot find a death for Elizabeth and a second marriage for Jenkin. Jenkin of Petrchurch died in 1809 aged 52(could be wrong) and this would give a birth date of 1757 which would make him an age of 17 at marriage. Seems possible but unlikely that Jenkin Williams would have married at this age. My own opinion is that there were two Jenkin Williams with the inheritor of Velin Newydd having already left Llandefalle for Herefordshire. ( I looked for the baptisms of Jenkin Williams and Mary Beavans first two children but they are not recorded in Llandefalle or Peterchurch)
Second problem is the Will of Jenkin Williams dated 1660. He was wealthy and owned more that one mill. He mentions his natural brother Edward Parry and his wife Elizabeth which fits with the Will of Edward Parry. Problem is the writing does not seem to match the 1660 Jenkin Williams Will that you have. Please have a look to see what you think. I found the 1660 Will at NLW very difficult to read.