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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cheshire => Topic started by: brigidmac on Thursday 24 January 19 16:31 GMT (UK)
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Hello
Ive had another look at 1911
Birkenhead census for my grandfather and his family
Its quite a messy family & totally mistranscribed on ancestry as elder brother George Jones is head of household and *his sister appears as his daughter
The 2nd line has his mother Maria nee Smith down as having been married 28 years and having 8 children 7 living 1 dead
She had 2 children with her first husband Joseph LEA and 7 with her second husband Abiah JONES who is staying nearby in 1911
There is a line thru those figures and across a sentence which i think was "separated for ...x ? years
There are also crossing outs and rewritings to get her childrens professions correct .
The youngest of my grandfathers brothers is aged 10
Under him is Annie Jones No age given
Her name is then crossed out .
Does this mean she was a baby ? Did she die ?
Could she have belonged to one if the jones elder siblings ?
Any ideas ...?I.d like your theories .?
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Under him is Annie Jones No age given
Her name is then crossed out .
Does this mean she was a baby ? Did she die ?
Could she have belonged to one if the jones elder siblings ?
I think she has died and that is why she is crossed out - Also check the children who have died against her.
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All the other children from this 2nd marriage are on that census
And a half sister .
BUT if she was a baby and Maria and Abiah JONES had been separated for several years it does leave question of who was father .
We know great grandmother Maria as a very staid no nonsense old lady its very hard to imagine her having a fling aged 51
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Have you confirmed the numbers regarding children of the marriage for Maria that lived/died
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She is listed as daughter to head of house which would be George aged 22 single grocers assistant
But as there are so.many other mistakes on the page its a bit of a mystery .
She could also be a child of the elder Jones half siblings
David Abiah JONES aged 25
Mabel Rebecca or Helen who were in their 30.s
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I think Rosie meant she died as a baby.
The 1911 census was the first to ask how many children to the marriage. Annie could have been born any time during the marriage not necessarily since the 1901 census.
Tazzie
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We havent come across a baby that died before .grandad always said he had 5 brothers George Jo Ewert William &Arthur and 1 sister Winifred .
He had 2 older sisters on his mothers side Lizzie and Henrietta LEA they didnt use the Jones surname .
The older brother on his fathers side grew up with him and was in army by1899 and married in 1911.with a babyof his own born
Dec 1911
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Tazzie thanks for that suggestion ...so you mean people may have put their deceased children on tbe census hence not giving an age ?
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Tazzie thanks for that suggestion ...so you mean people may have put their deceased children on tbe census hence not giving an age ?
One of my direct ancestors listed every child they had in their marriage in age order. Next to about 4 were 'died'. It was very helpful as I had no idea about some of them.
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Thanks Ben there is always something new on here .
It would then make sense that Maria d had a baby.while still with her husband in her 40.s
BUT it could also make sense that baby Annie belonged to one of her stepchildren as their mothers name was Ann.
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Hi......
Sometimes when they have entered all children they have listed married children who have left home and got their own family. So they would be found in two places on the census.
Tazzie
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Im trying to find where my grandfathers half sisters were at this time . Mabel and Rebecca Jones were both spinsters in 1924 they were with relatives or doing domestic duties in 1891 i believe they died in Wales .
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As George is head of household and Maria's husband is not present, the statistics about her children were technically not required, which is why the census staff have drawn a red line through it.
I think that Annie was the one child of Maria's that died. (That's assuming you can account for the other seven.)
I've got a 1911 census form that includes a deceased child - lots of people were confused by those questions and misunderstood what should be included.
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Yes Sloe gin I think thats the answer .
I wondered why there were so many crossings out on the census ...it did give some intetesting information tho
My great uncle Ewert went deaf from meningitus and the census tells us hed been deaf since age 13 ..i always thought it was younger as my grandfather told us they took turns holding his hands at night so he.d know he was alive .
Also there is an extra comment about Lizzea LEA being a half sister....
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Maria was very fertile
She had her first daughter aged 18 in 1877 then another 2 years later .her first husband died and she waited 7 years to remarry then started having children every 2 or 3 years again .
The biggest gaps when she could have had Annie who died are 1886-1889
1894-1897
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There are two Ann Jones in the 2nd quarter of 1911 born in Birkenhead (assuming she was a young baby probably born late March very beginning of April - there aren't any in the Jan - Mar quarter)
MMN Roberts and MMN Jones
Also a potential of an Annie MMN Cork Dec 1910
Do any of those maiden names match any of the Jones siblings?
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However scrubbing that - there is an Annie Jones aged 1 who dies in the April - Jun quarter 1911
If she died in the first few days of April she's, IMHO, the main contender
In the Apr - Jun quarter 1910 there is an illegitamate Annie Jones born in Birkinhead
Depending on how interested you are in solving the puzzle they'd be the certificates I'd be looking at - the death one first and if that date of death is in the day or so prior to the census with right adress you know you have it
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Good detective work
All the daughters either had Jones or Lea as surnames
If a son took on his birth child we may never know mothers maiden name
If child was Marias but husband did not acknowledge it would it be classified as illegitimate ??
* maria.s maiden name was Smith.
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I cant afford to send for many birth certificates i was hoping to get clues from a baptism but couldnt find any approrpriate ones on Ancestry .
None of the sons married women called Jones .
But half sister Mary E Jones b1881 birkenhead could have married a Mr Jones ...i have not found a death or marriage for her ...and her father left probate to his 2 spinster daughters 1924 so she could have been left out because she.d married ,died or had a love child .!
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Still not found any appropriate baptisms
Or if Mary E JONES married a
JONES.
There would be too manyAnnies to look up with mmn SMITH in the missing years
i do find it hard to believe Maria had an 8th child when she was nearing 50
Family story is that Abiah waited for his children to be grown up before moving back to Wales
If they had been separated 2 years in 1911 his youngest would have been about 7
The family was poor ...so an extra mouth to feed would have been hard .
Could a mother give child fathers surname even if tbey are not married
So for example mother jane Doe ...
No father named
But Baby given Jones Surname anyway
I had example of this in Scotland ...baby given mans surname on assumption couple will mary later ...
They never did but the motber was always named as Mrs M
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I believe I'm right in saying an unmarried woman could only give her child that surname if the father was present at the registration (and so recognised the child as his). That's why sometimes she pretended to be married to the father on the cert when she actually wasn't.
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As you say there are too many Annie Jones births with the maiden name Smith to check every single one .
Annie could have been born anytime from the start of her marriage onwards. You have found a couple of large gaps where this is possible. I would not look at the recent ones.
Years married and number of children were only required for the head of the house but George supplied far more than needed.........more of an advantage for you.
Tazzie
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If Annie was Maria.s daughter i wonder why she isnt on gravestone with maria and 2 of her 3 daughters .
Maybe i could get someone to look for her grave at Flaybrick cemetary .
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So am i right in thinking child could have been born in 1895 for example lived to be any age ...and would just be recorded with their name ....because age at death would not be correct for census
If this were the case Id expect to finf a burial pf some sort and that Grandad would have mentioned his sister unless it was pre his birth in1899
His other sister Winnie was absolutely adored by her 6 brothers unfortunately she died young in child birth .They got a lovely gravestone for her ...her mothers name joined hers many years later and her baby Olive b1924 was brought up by grandma Maria and 2 great aunts .
The brothers wouldnt let baby Olive.s father a doctor take her back to his native Roumania ....
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Hello
Ive had another look at 1911
Birkenhead census for my grandfather and his family
Its quite a messy family & totally mistranscribed on ancestry as elder brother George Jones is head of household and *his sister appears as his daughter
The 2nd line has his mother Maria nee Smith down as having been married 28 years and having 8 children 7 living 1 dead
She had 2 children with her first husband Joseph LEA and 7 with her second husband Abiah JONES who is staying nearby in 1911
There is a line thru those figures and across a sentence which i think was "separated for ...x ? years
There are also crossing outs and rewritings to get her childrens professions correct .
The youngest of my grandfathers brothers is aged 10
Under him is Annie Jones No age given
Her name is then crossed out .
Does this mean she was a baby ? Did she die ?
Could she have belonged to one if the jones elder siblings ?
Any ideas ...?I.d like your theories .?
The first thing to look at on the 1911 census is who filled in the schedule.
In this case the schedule was filled in by George, who also claimed to be Head of the household.
This would normally mean that the relationships between him and the other members of the family would be correct.
The majority of the relationships do seem to conform to this assumption but two stick out.
The first has a question mark above the relationships as if queried by the census staff (a daughter aged 14 is not practical)
The second a daughter (Annie) aged 1, she could be his daughter or could possibly be a half-sister but I would tend to favour her being George’s daughter for three reasons.
1) George has already mentioned his half-sister.
2) The mention of a 14 year old female as his daughter to me says he wants to mention his daughter who does not live with him.
3) That second assumption seems to be reinforced by the scoring out of her name possibly by him or more likely by the enumerator when the schedule was collected.
I would suggest the schedule has been corrected twice by census staff, the black corrections (mainly occupations) by the enumerator the red scoring out by the team at the office.
Cheers
Guy
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Thanks Guy your explanations are clear and very good assumptions
He WAS head of household
Mother wasnt working
14 year old Winnie was his full sister
Where does it say daughters age ...i saw blank column
What do people think about this theory
George.s fiancee / wife not living there
There due to illness work or death
Baby being nursed by his family but died around census time
My sister says if a baby died before baptism it had to be buried outside cemetary is this true ?
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Thanks Guy your explanations are clear and very good assumptions
He WAS head of household
Mother wasnt working
14 year old Winnie was his full sister
Where does it say daughters age ...i saw blank column
What do people think about this theory
George.s fiancee / wife not living there
There due to illness work or death
Baby being nursed by his family but died around census time
My sister says if a baby died before baptism it had to be buried outside cemetary is this true ?
Sorry I made a couple of errors due to trying to multitask.
As you point out there is no age shown for Annie the column I looked at in error was the died column noting she had died.
I meant to add the the scored out entry in the occupation for Georges mother states "Separated for 2 Years", I looked at both Ancestry & Findmypast but FindMyPast seems clearer.
Though he was the eldest male I would not assume that he would automatically be the head of the household, though it could be his mother and her children moved in with him when she split with Abiah. They are all together on the 1901 census.
All parishioners have a right to be buried in a graveyard, the clergy can refuse to conduct a burial service but they cannot prevent a burial (if the graveyard is still open to burials), even stillborns may be buried in graveyards and even in the body of the church itself. Having said that some clergy did try to discourage the burial of those not baptised in their lifetime.
Hope this helps
Cheers
Guy
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Reviving this because although I havent yet solved mystery of deceased Annie
But I am comparing other census and do know think that Mariah was referring to children born of her second marriage and there may have been a child born and died between censuses .
I wonder how her son George managed to put his sister Winifred down as his daughter.
The question of burial of Annie bothers me.
When Winifred died in 1928 the family got a grave plot im not sure when the headstone was purchased but her mother Mariah JONES nee SMITH .1945 and her half sister Henrietta DAULMAN nee LEA d1946 are on the samr headstone
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Henrietta had two children before she separated from her huband
She lost touch with her son Clifford who went to USA
Ramsey Daulton died as a baby
We.ve found Clifford Daultons descendants but nether side of family knows where baby Ramsey is buried