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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: brigidmac on Friday 25 January 19 15:40 GMT (UK)
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I was extremely surprised to find a relative Enoch Jones on 1851 census
Living at ROSE AND crown
Listed as a publican butcher and farmer of 100 acres
How could he do all 3 jobs .
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I believe Enoch Jones is the uncle of my great granfather Abiah Roger JONES
who in 1951 is living on abbott st wrexham with his father Joseph JONES who is listed as Innkeeper Butcher
There was a pub called Butchers Arms apparently so i wasnt sure of meaning
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Perhaps he slaughtered his own animals and sold the meat.
The Rose and Crown was for sale by Auction Chester Chronicle 24 July 1846 - It was in the occupation of Enoch Jones. As the tenant he was expected to show any interested person around the property
It looks as though they may have had problems selling it as it had already been advertised earlier
Chester Chronicle 05 July 1844 - Enoch was there then
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Publicans/Innkeepers very often had other occupations. I have an Innkeeper who was also a Cabinet Maker.
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Thats interesting Rosie and if he was still there 5 years later obviously hadnt sold it .
I wonder if he was the Enoch Jones who died in a lunatic asylum in 1865 admitted 1862
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His brother my 2x g gfather Joseph seems to.have become a full time farmer in 1861
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Enoch and Joseph s father William also seems to have gone from being a butcher ...cited phroffession on Josephs wedding banns
To * 1861 census farmer
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I have come across a similar situation . The meat part was dealt with in a different room in the pub .
Obviously I can't say it was the same for your family.
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I've got the same. If you're a farmer, it made sense to butcher and sell your meat ... and if people came to buy it, or you had to take it to town to sell, and thus had premises, why not sell ale etc., to make a bit more? At least that's what the one I had seems to have done, expanding to Innkeeper whilst keeping on the other jobs.
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I have a father and son who combined butcher and innkeeper in 18th century. Grandfather was also a butcher; I'm not sure if he combined it with being an innkeeper but another relative was town innkeeper after death of the former. Neither job was full-time in the small town. Wife and children would have looked after the inn when husband was doing the other job. Inventory of one of the innkeepers included animals. Testator specified that his younger daughter was to have her choice of cow or heifer. Other relatives were farmers.
Some farmers had a sideline to provide extra income and employment during slack time in winter. 100 acres was a fairly big farm in 1850s. Did he have employees or rely on family labour? What kind of farm was it?
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It makes sense when you say ot like that and maybe they were sheep farmers .
Im trying to sort out these Jones people to see how they link with DNA matches in USA who have Jones born in Denbighshire
So far i cant work out who emigrated
It would probably be someone in the same generation as the publican butchers
If i can find that William born 1801 Llanmorn Denbighshire had other children or siblings it could help
I think one of the corresponding trees had a william JONES b Llanmorn 1784 -1871
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William JONES was an ag lab aged 60 in 1861
The farm on census above is run by a John JONES its 65 acres and they had sevants to help also called Jones .
I dont know what kind of farms they were
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Thats interesting Rosie and if he was still there 5 years later obviously hadnt sold it .
I wonder if he was the Enoch Jones who died in a lunatic asylum in 1865 admitted 1862
Could be - an 1867 newspaper ad for land for sale in Llanarmon notes that it borders land owned by the late Enoch Jones
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Great find Mabel ..thanks
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I have 2 close DNA matches with JONES on their trees
1 man in USA knew very little about his father or his ancestry but gave me 2 clues ..he was named after a boy who.d died at sea (his uncle) and his grandfather was a reverend ...i worked out his direct ancestors to the 1830.s but none seemed to match until we realised his g grandffather had married
Jane JONES ...who turned out to sister of my ggfather Abiah.R JONES
I didnt have their fathersname at time but think i found her on a census with another sister Dorcas
The other person who matches in same degree has JONES from Llanmorn but so far we cant find a match
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You might like to take a look at the Abiah Jones entries on my website, taken from Clwyd FHS transcriptions. You'll find them on page A listed under Abiah.
Jill
www.clwydsurnames.org.uk
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Thank you
I got onto the sitecand looked at jones marriages
Ended up scrolling down thru the centuries from 1600 my thimb did olympic scrolling at speed ..got blocked at 1757 before i could find any Abiahs there must be an easier way
His first son with wife Ann williams was Abia David JONES also a butcher i think
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Ok i found the Abiah list
There seem to be twins
And a death at 4 weeks
Im not sure how others relate to my great grand father ..he could be named after a relative
Abiah he spelt his name with an h
His son.had no h to distinguish them
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Thanks Jill what a great page
I looked at Enochs too
There is only one Enoch JONES
buried in Ruabon age 67
So he was the one in asylum
He had a son Ellis in 1858 who died in aug aged 1 month the couple were living in Hulme .
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Surprisngly ..no Dorcas names at all.
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Hi im taking another look at this
Can you help me unravel
Some family trees have parents as william and jane Jones b 1801 and 5 other children
But Im not convinced
If anyone could read the names of farms or addresses on censuses it would be a great help.
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enoch b1814 cant be josephs brother
Josephs father william b 1801
Maybe uncle or another relation.
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Enoch is an interesting man.but is he related to us directly
My great grandfather Abiah Roger JONES aged 11 in 1861
Sister Dorcas aged 13 with their widowed father and younger siblings
sister Martha Ann age 10 with mothers brother Benjamin THOMAS
In 1851 Dorcas age 3 was with Enoch & Hannah JONES both age 37 at the Rose and crown
Martha Ann age 10.months with patents Joseph & Rebekkah JONES
Abbott street
So where was Abiah age 1 ?
Did Enoch have any children ?
Rebecca died in 1857 maybe in childbirth as rhere is a birth " male child Jones " registered
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1851. Bryngelan [?] , Garthneuoedd, Denbighshire
David Jones 37 farmer, 40 acres empl 1 lab, b LLanfwrog
Martha Jones 35 b Llanarmon
Alia R Jones 2 [image says Abia] b Oldham, visitor
Stephen Davies 18
Catherine Williams 21
HO107; 2504; 348; 5;
[added: same place as he is in 1871, as "relative" Address Bryn Gole (Golau)]
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Thats amazing Mabel
And it proves there is a link to abiahs grandfather william Jones with.brother David
Thanks for giving me the farm name too i couldnt read it
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I'm still unraveling these Jones people
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Enoch.b 1814 mother was Jane
But can't be Jane davies b1801who married William jones in 1823 .
I think he is full brother to farmer David Jones b 1813the surrogate father of my great grandfather Abiah Roger Jones
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I have another DNA link which I think is to Abiahs sister
Martha Ann Jones b1850 married to Abraham PRICE emigrated USA
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The plot thickens 1881
finds Hannah Price age 11
(daughter of Abraham PRICE+ Martha Ann Jones?)
At the Rose and crown with grandparents Thomas and Hannah LEWIS
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can Enoch Jones b1815
be son of William b 1801 ..
brother of Joseph Jones b1827
So great uncle of Abiah
Those dates would make William a very young father .
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The plot thickens 1881
finds Hannah Price age 11
(daughter of Abraham PRICE+ Martha Ann Jones?)
At the Rose and crown with grandparents Thomas and Hannah LEWIS
Given the age difference between Hannah and Thomas Lewis I suspect this is a second marriage for her. They are together in 1861, and given Thomas' age the marriage would have been in the previous 10 years. There is a marriage in 1856 in Ruthin district involving a Thomas Lewis and Hannah Jones
In 1851 Hannah Jones, the right age, was wife of the landlord of the Rose & Crown - Enoch Jones
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Another great find Mabel
My searches aren't throwing up that marriage .I d like to find Hannah's maiden name before she married Enoch .
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Marriages Q4 1856 Wrexham Vol 11b p593
Bate John
Jones Hannah
Lewis Thomas
Thomas Sarah
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Thanks Mabel
A DNA match to Martha Ann Jones liveS near linedelin and is going to look at graves tho I know my great grandfather had an unmarked grave ..maybe his siblings or ancestors had graves
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In the last year's of his life my great grandfather lived with a
Sarah Ellen HUGHES in Llanedin
She has a grave there with Robert Hughes of Heulog
But I don't know how /if there is a family connection.
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Thomas Lewis is shown as 17 years younger than Hannah in 1861
But the C1871 and C1881 have a 20 year age gap which fits her birthdate better .
They may have been living as husband and wife but I believe Enoch died in 1865 in Asylum where he was admitted in 1882
So ... not that marriage .bigamy or I have wrong death .
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Update
I now have contacts with descendants of all 3 sisters of my great grandfather Abiah
Many went from farming to mining one neice even married a gold miner .
Im still interested in knowing more about these pubs and havent established exact relationshoips to *uncles David and Enoch Jones
Have several cases of Jones marrying Jones and Roberts marrying Roberts along the lines which doesnt help .
Summary
children of Joseph JONES innkeeper butcher farmer .1824 +.rebecca THOMAS
Dorcas 1849 eloped with the carter turned miner James ROBERTS married young and had 15 children ten survived til 1911 children worked at coal pit in Atherton d 1913
*Abiah Roger JONES b 1850 had 3 children with Ann Williams son moved to Birkenhead married widow Mariah Smith took on two stepdaughters and couple had another 7 children
Martha Ann b 1851 m abe PRICE emigrated to Usa
Joseph Thomas JONES b 1853 .....???
Harriet Rebecca Jones m David JONES had 2 sons ...one died on boat to new life in USA
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Along the way I found a publican miner
Which seems a really unlikey combination
Jane Price b 1871 was a cook in.1901 she had daughter Beatrice may PRICE with william henry JONES
1874 ,1955 he was a landlord born at Royal Oak Tryddyn
He married someone else but took.his birth daughter off to Durham she was then known as Beatrice Price Jones
whose birth father